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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Whirlygigs, Sparge Spraying and Other Goofy Brewing Concepts ("Kirk Fleming")
  Thermal mash calculation ("Gene")
  Mash pH (AJ)
  Brown Malt (leavitdg)
  TV Special ("Axle Maker")
  Does a Pilsener have to contain Saaz? (Bill Wible)
  Things bought/should have bought, etc. (Bill Wible)
  beer, wine, light damage & brown bottles ("Ralph Davis")
  RE:  Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: Dark Malt Mashing Procedures ("Houseman, David L")
  Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled ("Mike")
  New fad in Germany (Marc Tiar)
  Thermal Mass Calculation ("Gene")
  re: All-Grain Equipment Issues (John Schnupp)
  Re: Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled (Jeff Renner)
  re: I wish I never bought... ("Ken Taborek")
  RE: Phil's Sparge Arms, Brewing Techniques ("James Reeves")
  War Of the Worts VII (John Varady)
  Richbrau (Paul Mahoney)
  Brewing Techniques ("Don")


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:23:41 -0800
From: "Kirk Fleming" <kirkfleming at earthlink.net>
Subject: Whirlygigs, Sparge Spraying and Other Goofy Brewing Concepts

In 3842 Waynes ("The Holders" <zymie at charter.net>) says whirlygigs are
silly. I give that a hearty second motion. I can't imagine ANY reasonable
explanation for 'spraying' water around the surface of the mash. If anyone
would care to explain the purpose of this process, I'm all ears.

If ever there was a concept you could do better without, this would be one
of them--ESPECIALLY given that the brewer has a three-tier system, which
tells me he/she can gravity-drain hot liquor into the mash tun. Okay--drain
your sparge water into the mash tun (using a tube of some sort) at about the
same rate you're draining the sweet wort from the mash tun, maintaining any
arbitrarily selected depth of water over the surface of the grain (e.g.,
1/8" to 1", who cares?).

My goodness, what a waste of perfectly good mental anquish that could be
more effectively allocated to concerns over the next episode of [your
favorite daytime soap here].

Kirk Fleming
FRSE, FRSL




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 00:26:46 -0600
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Thermal mash calculation

Thanks to all who posted and privately offered suggestions to my sparge arm
problems.

Next question. I am using a 15.5 gallon stainless Sankey keg for my
mash/lauter tun. I keep overshooting my gravities, 11 points on last
Sunday's Porter, and would like to gain a better understanding of
calculating my mash efficiency and my strike temperature when using ProMash.
Does anyone know the proper thermal mass setting for this type of keg or how
to set it close to what it needs to be? What is this number anyway....a
ratio of some sort?

I usually do step infusion mashes and I wrap the keg with a sleeping bag
between temperature boosts and it maintains a good constant temperature for
a long time.

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:29:41 +0100
From: AJ <ajd at zai.com>
Subject: Mash pH

I think the simplest explanation for the observed pH's is a faulty pH
meter or improper use of it for at least some of the readings. Neither
gypsum (calcium sulfate) not Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate)
appreciably affect the pH of a solution in which they are dissolved.
Sulfuric acid, on the other hand, will lower the pH by an amount
dependent on how much acid is added and what the alkalinity of the water
is. For starters we find a water sample whose pH was measured 0.2 pH
less than the minimum specified by the water supplier. While it is not
impossible that a sample could be this low in pH relative to what the
water authority reports it is quite unlikely. Second we find that a
measurement post sulfuric acid addition  showed an increase in pH. This
is not possible. Then we have a pH reading in the mash itself which is
low enough that enzyme activity would be slowed if not stopped followed
by, finally, a believeable pH reading though given the others one might
well question this one too.

Given that the pH readings are suspect there isn't much point in
speculating about what hapened. It is possible with a low alkalinity
water to lower the pH appreciably with a very small amount of sulfuric
acid by which I mean an amount very much less than the buffering
capacity of the malt. The malt phosphate reactions take place fairly
slowly as it takes a while for the water to penetrate and solubilize the
malt so it is conceiveable that in this case (low alkalinity) mash pH
could rise some time after dough in.

A.J.



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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:57:13 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Brown Malt

Adam;

  I am not sure of the type of brown malt you have, but I do know through 
experience that 1/2 lb of brown malt (Fawcett's) is nearly the max for a 
5 gallon batch.  Jeff can verify...this stuff doesn't have any diastatic 
power, ie no enzymes, and it has a real strong flavor...

  I once tried, with Jeff's encouragement, to make a porter (as I guess it
is tradionally made) with all brwon malt...and had to throw the batch out
 ...it tasted like coffee grounds...then I experimented less...and less...to
the point that 1/2 lb was good...1 lb, I think was too much...but we all
have our own tastes...flavor s and such..

 Happy Brewing!

 ..Darrell
Plattsburgh, NY,
[500...something, 72...something...Renerrian, apparently]
I am a man as well...but am frequently quite lost!


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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:41:00 -0500
From: "Axle Maker" <axlemaker at mindspring.com>
Subject: TV Special

On Jan. 23rd at 8:00 PM est, the History Channel is playing brewing episode.

To read more about it, go to the web site > www.historychannel.com and click
on the "on tv" button then do a search for "hands on history".



Axle Maker
Axle's Alewerk's
Rossville, Ga.



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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:28:07 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Does a Pilsener have to contain Saaz?

Hello fellow brewers!

I am going to brew a German Pilsener this weekend, while
we get 4 to 8 inches of snow here in Phila.  I want something
similar to Bitburger.  I had Bitburger on draught a couple
weeks ago here at a downtown restaurant that specializes
in German brews.  21 German beers on draught, including
Samiclaus, is a wonderful sight to behold.  And its a
terrible thing to have to decide between some of them,
besides, since you can't have them all.  I must say that
I have a new-found respect for German beers after that
trip.

Anyhow, the question of the day is: Does a German Pilsener
have to include Saaz?  Bitburger is lightly hopped, and
hard to taste the hops in, but I would swear it did not
taste like Saaz hops.

The BJCP guidelines say "German noble hops" and do not
specifically mention Saaz.  I was thinking of using
Tettnager for bittering, and either Hallertauer
Hersbrucker or Mittelfruh for flavor and aroma
additions.

Anybody know what Bitburger uses?  Any other suggestions?

Oh, yeah.  I'm using 2278 Czech Pils for yeast.

Thanks!

Bill 






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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:47:10 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Things bought/should have bought, etc.

Great thread.

Things I wish I never bought:

 - A 15 gallon 304 stainless restaurant grade pot that I paid
  over $250 for from a restaurant supply store.  I bought it
  about 4 years ago with the intention of putting a ball valve
  on it and including it in a 3 tier setup.  I have since
  acquired cut-up beer kegs much cheaper, and I've been
  actually using those.  The 15 gallon pot still sits.
  Maybe I will use it someday.

 - (2) 50lb buckets of raw unmalted wheat.  Got them cheap
  from a farm, but didn't realize they weren't good for
  German Wheat beer.

 - "Under the sink" water filter that I bought for filtering beer.
  I think I used it once.

Things I'm glad I bought:

 - Disposable wallpaper tray.  Great for sanitizing racking
  canes, etc.

 - Kegging setup!  (Which would I rather clean for each batch
  - (50) 12 oz bottles or one 5 gallon keg?  'nuff said!

 - "Crash guard" for my CO2 bottle's regulator.  I can't count
  the number of times this thing has saved my gauges.  The first
  time it did, I figure it paid for itself.

 - My freezer chest.  The one I have holds (6) corny kegs,
  plus it has a hanging basket that is great for storing
  hops and yeast, etc.

Things I plan to buy/build:

 - Faucet setups for my freezer chest.  Got plans from an old
  issue of Zymurgy.  It basically involves a wood frame that
  fits between the freezer chest door and body, through
  which you drill holes and install faucets.  Doesn't damage
  the freezer, and is removable so you can use the freezer
  for things other than beer (if you need to).

Bill
  



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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:01:56 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: beer, wine, light damage & brown bottles

I remember reading the spiel about brown bottles protecting beer from light
on the bottom of a Sam Adams 6-pack years ago.  It convinced me, especially
in that since then, nearly ever beer I've had from a green bottle did have
that kind of skunky smell....  It seems the cooler spectrum light does
damage beer--hence brown bottles are kind of "blue blocker" sunglasses for
beer.   Why is it than that several major European brewers (Spaten for
example) still use green bottles?

Another musing question: Since light damages (seemingly prosaic) beer, you'd
think it would (or could) also damage very expensive delicate wine.....why
do virtually ALL wine makers NOT use brown (or completely blacked out)
bottles? 99% of wine is in green bottles.... and if even a few minutes in
sunlight could spoil it, for things that are kept for years on end, why risk
it?   Very strange custom.....


Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin




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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:05:47 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled

Bankruptcy isn't necessarily cheating people although if you're one of
the creditors left holding the bag it certainly feels that way.  But the
email announcing the availability of back issues IS IHMO.  This is
because, I, like a lot of others were offered back issues as a
compensation for the un-used portion of my subscription which was lost
when BT went under.  But I never received anything, after identifying
the issues I would take.  NOW, they contract with someone to sell off
these issues?!  To me THAT IS cheating; they are selling off some of my
issues.  

Dave Houseman
SE PA


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:10:29 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Dark Malt Mashing Procedures

No, one does not have to mash the roasted grains such as chocolate,
black patent and carafa malts or un-malted roasted barley.  These can be
steeped to extract their color and flavor without mashing.  I often add
these at the end of the mash during the vorlauf in order to take the
edge off the harshness of these grains.   In fact there is a very good
article in the recent issue of Zymurgy (I believe) on cold steeping in
which you create a "tea" to add to the kettle.  I've found adding the
grains late to the mash works very well.  I'm going to experiment with
the cold steeping to see how that compares.  

Dave Houseman
SE PA


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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:31:36 -0500
From: "Mike" <brewski at inet99.net>
Subject: Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled

I subscribed to Brewing Techniques about 2 years ago, about the time they
quit publishing it. They sent me a letter saying that the publication of BT
would end, returned my check and a list of items, back issues and special
publications, they had for sale. I returned the check in the purchase of 3
special publications. There was a little money left over. I told them to
just keep the change, that I appreciated them being honest and straight
forward with me and to keep, or put me on their list, should they Phoenix
let me know. I got the items order in due time. I'm more than happy with the
way they were very nice in what must have been a very bad situation for
them.

When a company, or family, is going belly-up, something that neither is
geared to do. Things fall through the cracks. BT says they are wanting to
correct any short comings with their past customers.

Ha, they are trying to do you right. If all you want to do is cry about how
they done you wrong and not let them know. Go ahead, be a martyr! Do you
think I really care?

If anyone from BT is reading this, put me on your email list. Should you
start publishing again, please let me know.

Mike





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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:55:51 -0800
From: Marc Tiar <marc at tiar.reno.nv.us>
Subject: New fad in Germany

A brief but interesting article from the UK Yahoo news...this is just the 
first part.  Full article is at http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020118/80/cpv6c.html

Cola beer aimed at young drinkers
BERLIN (Reuters) - German brewers, famed for centuries for their strict 
adherence to beer purity laws, have found they can only tap trend-conscious 
young Germans by watering down their classics with lemonade and fruity syrups.
Visitors to the beer hall at this week's "Green Week" farming and food show 
could sample the new product from Veltins, it's "V+" beer with cola, the 
latest in the brewing offensive on the youth market.
 ........................................
On another topic...the post relating to the new availability of back issues 
of Brewing Techniques...out of curiosity I looked for any info on the third 
party contracted to handle these transactions "Consumer's Edge 
Network".  Google finds absolutely no mention of them.  Who are they?  The 
email address given is a netzero.net address.  What kind of company has 
their email at a free ISP??  Seems kind of odd to me.

Marc Tiar
Reno NV
[1874.4, 276.4] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:49:03 -0600
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Thermal Mass Calculation

LeavesThanks to all who posted and privately offered suggestions to my
sparge arm
problems.

Next question. I am using a 15.5 gallon stainless Sankey keg for my
mash/lauter tun. I keep overshooting my gravities, 11 points on last
Sunday's Porter, and would like to gain a better understanding of
calculating my mash efficiency and my strike temperature when using ProMash.
Does anyone know the proper thermal mass setting for this type of keg or how
to set it close to what it needs to be? What is this number anyway....a
ratio of some sort?

I usually do step infusion mashes and I wrap the keg with a sleeping bag
between temperature boosts and it maintains a good constant temperature for
a long time.


Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:18:29 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: All-Grain Equipment Issues

gmc is having some trouble locating hardware items.  Well, I'm a
hardware store junkie and here is what I've done.

>It's like some kind of mystery or classified information, unless of course
>you pay $9.00 for a bulkhead fitting with the nut included.  And even these
>are hard to find, although you can find them at a few select places.  So
>where are they getting the nuts?

Here's what I've done.  Take a female fitting and cut a slice of it off.
I use a hack saw but a Dremel would work well too.  The side you cut will
probably be a little rough so when using, make sure the finished side is
facing the correct direction.  If you get a female coupler you can get two
homemade nuts from the same fitting.  One from each end.

>Also, I am searching for stainless steel hose cover.  That's probably not
>the correct terminology, but it's very popular now for filtering and
>mashing.  I don't think this is as much of mystery, but I'm still having
>trouble locating it as well.

Go to any hardware store and purchase a reinforced washing machine hose.
Make sure the reinforcing braid is SS.  It usually will say on the package.
The cut the ends of the hose off and remove the SS braid.  Now just slip
it over your pickup tube and fasten the ends with SS hose clamps.

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Horse with no Name



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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:15:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled

"KKrist" <kkrist at bigfoot.com> wrote:

>I received the following email. I'm sending it to warn others. Brewing
>Techniques cheated a lot of people when the went out-of-business. Now they
>reappear with the following.

Wait a second, I don't think you are being quite fair.  They're 
trying to make right:

>We apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced in the 
>past.  BrewingTechniques is also committed to fulfilling any unmet 
>obligations to past subscribers. If you had a claim for issues not 
>received, please contact Consumer's Edge Network 
>(c.e.n. at netzero.net), who will work to resolve the matter

I don't think it was a matter of cheating anyone for any gain, they 
evidently just got in an untenable financial situation.  I can only 
imagine how painful it was for Stephen Mallory to shut down and know 
he couldn't meet his obligations.

I am grateful for the time BT was with us and lament its passing, and 
wish Stephen luck in resolving past problems.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 01:23:19 -0500
From: "Ken Taborek" <Ken.Taborek at Verizon.net>
Subject: re: I wish I never bought...

> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:13:53 -0500
> From: "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
> Subject: I wish I never bought...
>
>  ...Those damn EZ-cap swing top bottles.  I bought 6 boxes of them when I
> first started brewing so that I could avoid buying a bottle capper.  I've
> tried everyting short of giving them away to get rid of them.  It
> seems like
> they leak off carbonation even when they have new gaskets.
[remainder snipped]

Brian,

I'm very suprised to hear of your experience with swing top bottles.  I've
used them extensively, and have never had a problem.  Being the frugal (aka
cheap :) type, I've bought several cases of beer in swing top bottles (2
cases of Oberdorfer (yuuum), and 32 bottles of 'mixed variety German beers'
that came in cute little wooden 4 packs at a very reasonable price, and
various purchases of a few bottles of many different types of beer in swing
top bottles) and have used them for a good many batches of beer, with no
issues with retaining carbonation.  I've never bought new gaskets for them,
either, and I haven't made any effort to keep the gaskets seperate (the
ceramic bottle stoppers are of slightly differing sizes), I just throw them
all into a cleaning solution on bottling day, and put them back on the
bottles just before filling.
When I open a beer in one of these bottles, no matter how long it's been in
my beer closet, I'm often greeted with a lovely 'pop!', as if I'd opened a
bottle of Champaign.

I know you said EZ-cap, but that's a common term for the style of bottle,
just as 'Grolsh bottles' is.  Could you please confirm the brand of bottles
that you bought?
I'm wondering if it's the brand of bottles, or some other factor, that is
responsible for the complete difference in our experiences with swing top
bottles.

Cheers,
Ken
Northern VA



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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 06:48:54 -0600
From: "James Reeves" <jay666 at bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Phil's Sparge Arms, Brewing Techniques

In #3843,George Krafcisin sed:
>
> What I've always wondered, though, is whether or not the spray through the
> air onto the surface of the mash is aerating the sparge water.  Aren't we
> warned not to aerate the hot side?  I've never noticed any off
> flavors from
> this, but I wonder.

I've often wondered about that too, but I don't seem to have any problem.

As another data point, I used to go help at a brewery in Birmingham a couple
of years back and they used a rotating sparge arm.  Their beer wasn't
oxidized and was actually pretty good.  Also when they recirculated the
first runnings, they would run it into a lauter grant, then pump it back on
top.  When the wort ran into this grant, it would fall about a foot,
splashing really good.  When they stopped recirculating, it still ran into
the lauter grant (still splashing), and then went to the kettle - ALL of the
wort was done this way.  I asked the brewer about that and he said "it
doesn't seem to oxidize it at this brewery".  Go figure.

Then KKrist warns us about Brewing Techniques.

> I received the following email. I'm sending it to warn others. Brewing
> Techniques cheated a lot of people when the went out-of-business. Now they

Yep, I'm one of 'em.  Had a little over two years left on my subscription,
they offered to refund my money or send me back issues of BT or of another
rag, I selected back issues, then never heard squat, even after 3 or 4
attempts to contact them.

That post did say "BrewingTechniques is also committed to fulfilling any
unmet obligations to past subscribers. If you had a claim for issues not
received, please contact Consumer's Edge Network (c.e.n. at netzero.net), who
will work to resolve the matter."  I'll try them and see what happens.

 -Jay Reeves
Huntsville, AL




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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:46:54 -0800
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: War Of the Worts VII

BREWERS!

The 7th annual War of the Worts is scheduled for Feb 23rd at the Drafting
Room in Springhouse PA, just outside of Philadelphia. As usual you can
expect your beer will be judged by some of the best  judges in the country
and those that win can expect fantastic prizes. For full information about
the contest please go to:

http://www.keystonehomebrew.com

and follow the links for the contest. Entry forms, drop off locations and
other pertinent information is available there. All entries must be
received by 02/17/02!


JUDGES!

We look forward to seeing the same happy judges back this year. To register
to judge, please use the new on-line registration form at:


http://www.keystonehops.org/worts/judgereg.cfm

Thanks and we hope to see you there.


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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:41:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Richbrau

Brewers:
   I was in Richmond, Va. last week on business, and
stopped in to sample some real beer at Richbrau.
I enjoyed their Kentucky Stout, and of course, their
signature beer, a Pale Ale.  Both were very good. 
Thick, rich flavor for the Stout; nice hop presence
in the Pale Ale. Both were carbonated on the light
side, and with very little head.
   For dessert I tried their Blueberry Wheat.  I am
not a big fan of wheat beers.  This one had a
solvent-like taste.
   The "Boule of Chili" was very good, spicy and
filling.
   The bartender told me that their brewer was
leaving for Old Dominion in Ashburn, Va.  Sorry, but I
forgot the name of the assistant brewer who was taking
over.
    
Paul Mahoney
Star City Brewers Guild
Roanoke, Va.
  
 
"Nature has formed you, desire has trained
you,fortune has preserved you for this insanity." 
Cicero




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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:12:30 -0800
From: "Don" <don at steinfillers.com>
Subject: Brewing Techniques

"KKrist" <kkrist at bigfoot.com>
Writes:
"Brewing Techniques -- don't get swindled"
"Brewing Techniques cheated a lot of people when the went out-of-business. "

Unless you have tried to order reciently, I think it is unfair criticism
based on past problems.

Yes, BT had problems.  Perhaps the biggest problem was the failure of
advertisers to pay them.   In short they simply just ran out of money.

To whine about not getting a few magazines when a publisher goes out is just
down right petty.
- -- Hope you didn't have any of your 401K  in ENRON.
Don



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---