HOMEBREW Digest #3854 Fri 01 February 2002

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  Indoor automated brewing: (Beaverplt)
  re:  frozen liquid ale yeast?/redissolves/Digest Netiquette ("Steve Alexander")
  Good mailorder beer kit locations? ("Tray Bourgoyne")
  Further- Whirlygigs (Bob Sheck)
  BT Back Issues & Do you scoop? ("Mike Maag")
  Grain/water ratio ("chris eidson")
  Fermenters (John Maylone)
  Re: Acetylene regulator ("Brian Morgan")
  RE: Fruit Concentrates ("Mark Nelson")
  PBW as a sanitizer ("David Craft")
  Re: Frozen liquid ale yeast? ("Jodie")
  Moving Brews Company? (Andrew Nix)
  Further stuck fermentation (john.mcgowan)
  Moving Brews: gone? (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>
  Re: Fermentation, Fruit Concentrates ("Kristen Chester")
  Sanitizing and Cleaning ("Jim Bermingham")
  Meadllennium V Results (Ron Bach)
  PTOs and IBUs (mohrstrom)
  BUZZ OFF Homebrew Competition ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: FWH and boilovers ("Dennis Lewis")
  Dump Gump Attention: All AHA members (Steve Casselman)
  Fw: historical beer /yeast ("Doug L.")
  FWH & boilover ("Pannicke, Glen A.")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com> Subject: Indoor automated brewing: Glen asks about safe indoor brewing. This question comes up often. I posted something about this many months ago and was surprised that there was not even a whimper out of anyone else. The only safe way I can think of to brew in a basement is with a natural gas or electric stove. And, of course, the next problem is getting enough BTUs. I am indeed a very fortunate fellow in that SWMBO is an excellent cook that appreciates having good equipment. When we moved into our current abode She insisted on getting "a decent stove". Well, "a decent stove" turned out to be a 6 burner commercial Vulcan that we bought used from a restaurant supply store that bought their appliances from restaurants that were going out of business. We paid a paltry $500 for a well used stove that basically needed a good cleaning. The beauty of it is the heat output is so much higher than a standard home unit that getting a vigorous boil on 5 gallons is no problem at all. And I can brew in the kitchen! I'm not going to suggest that you all talk your wives into putting commercial stoves in the kitchen (although that would be ideal). My suggestion really is that there must be used restaurant supply places in most major towns. If a stove can be purchased at a reasonable cost it might be worth running a natural gas line into your basement. I know that there are other problems that would come up in individual situations. I'm hoping I'll just be the catalyst for a new thread. Have fun with it. ===== Jerry "Beaver" Pelt That's my story and I'm sticking to it Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:12:06 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: frozen liquid ale yeast?/redissolves/Digest Netiquette Gregor Zellmann asks about freezing brewers yeast and it's use in baking. Bakers yeast and brewers yeasts are quite different. Bakers yeast can store over 5% of cell mass as sterols and 20+% as trehalose, compared to brewers yeasts with 1-2% sterols and 5% trehalose. These vast stores of sterols (which keep the membranes pliable at lower temps) and trehalose (an important storage carbohydrate) make baker's yeast a much better candidate for freezing. It also makes bakers yeast oxygen requirements quite different from brewers. Several books reference work by Kirsop, head of the British NCYC, showing that frozen brewers yeasts with glycerine(2.5% to 5% glycerol) added when revived 48 hours later have only 4 to 5% viability. That's good enough for culture storage but unacceptable for pitching yeast.. To optimize the survival to these low levels requires growing the yeast on an aerobic substrate (like manitol) which maximizes sterol and UFA levels and then controlling the temperature decrease from 20C to -30C over 2 hours. Perhaps your slurry didn't freeze hard in the baker's freezer because of the ethanol present. Cold storage without freezing is an excellent way to keep pitching cultures. It seems unlikely but I have no better guess. You should also be able to taste the hops bitterness from the IPA grown yeast in the break. If not maybe the baker is pulling a fast one. I wouldn't expect brewers yeast to perform particularly well in baking apps. === Dan Temple >I was told [...] the Hot Break would >immediately redissolve! No it won't. You may crumble large hot break particles into small ones, but they'll still sediment and won't redissolve without an alkaline bath. You may have difficulty removing as much of the small particle break. Fermentations carried out with more break give either better or worse flavor depending on which study you believe. I personally prefer to remove more break in light delicate styles like pils, but I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over the difference. === One personal POV on Netiquette. The best way to shave 120 lines from each 'gest is to cut out the lengthy sigs. I enjoy many of the quotes, but after I've seen 'em once or twice they lose any appeal. -S "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire "Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them. " - Samuel Palmer "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." - last words of Pancho Villa Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:48:05 -0600 From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tray at netdoor.com> Subject: Good mailorder beer kit locations? Where is a good place to mail order all-extract kits from? Thanks, Tray Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:31:23 -0500 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: Further- Whirlygigs I've borrowed one, they work ok. Still, lots of putzing around to set up a support system and all. I just lay a light plastic platter on the top of the grain bed and pour recirced mash and later the sparge water right in. No worries about temperature, either. It's 170F on top for a long time, till it goes dry, and a little beyond, depending on ambient air temp. FWIW, all the times I've measured, the sparged wort coming out the bottom has NEVER reached 170F. Not that I worry or loose sleep over it like some of you do. Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC bsheck at skantech.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:50:45 -0500 From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net> Subject: BT Back Issues & Do you scoop? The Brewing Techniques web site says: " BrewingTechniques is also committed to fulfilling any unmet obligations to past subscribers. If you had a claim for issues not received, please contact Consumer's Edge Network, who will work to resolve the matter." I emailed Consumer's Edge Network, from their site using the site link info at consumersedgenetwork.com and got a failure notice...I don't know if I should waste a phone call. Do you scoop? I do, because Al Korzonas says too. In addition to helping control boilovers and reducing off flavors, Al theorizes on page 76 of Homebrewing Vol I "since the hops help form the hot break,some of the hot break will coat the hops, interfering with the extraction of their bitterness" Hey, sounds good to me. Mike Maag in the Shenandoah Valley Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:13:42 From: "chris eidson" <eidsonc at hotmail.com> Subject: Grain/water ratio Being relatively new to all-grain brewing (3 batches so far), I was wondering what the collective would suggest for water to grain ratios on hot (~ 154f - 158f) single infusion mashes. How does variation in the ratio manifest in terms of quality of the finished product? Thanks in advance for any responses. Chris Eidson Birmingham, AL Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:20:36 -0800 From: John Maylone <mrkoala at mac.com> Subject: Fermenters I am new to home brewing, and have been lurking here on the list for a week or two. I would like some input from experienced brewers on fermenters. Keep in mind that I am currently brewing kits and do not envision transitioning to all-grain in the forseeable future. I am overwhelmed by the variety of equipment available for fermenting and would like to hear what the voice of experience says about the pros and cons of plastic buckets vs. carboys vs. conical steel vs. conical plastic. The negatives of the carboy are obvious, and yet a lot of you seem to use them. I started cheap, with a 7 gallon bucket, which doesn't FEEL like "the cat's meow" of brewing, but before I started upgrading I thought I'd ask for input from people with what I don't have: experience. Thanks for any input, John Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:32:15 -0500 From: "Brian Morgan" <brian-morgan at cinci.rr.com> Subject: Re: Acetylene regulator If I remember my days from welding class (about 30 years ago...), Acetylene is dissolved into acetone and steel wool to keep it from exploding under pressure. Putting acetylene under pressure of more than about 50psi will cause a rather violent and colorful explosion. To be useful, a welding tank has to hold a lot of gas, so it's at a very high pressure, and the acetone keeps it from exploding. Maybe that also affects the smell? At least theoretically, you should never burn acetone until the tank is empty. But I could be wrong... Brian Morgan Cincinnati Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:28:25 -0500 From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com> Subject: RE: Fruit Concentrates Eric Dahlberg asks about fruit concentrates as a replacement for fresh cherries in a Papazian Cherry Stout recipe. Rather than juice concentrates, I've used dried sour cherries before with good results. http://www.brownwoodacres.com/cat-index.htm and http://www.countryovens.com/ are sites that sell concentrates and dried cherries, as well as the Amon Orchards site that you mention. I believe the dried cherries will weigh in at 1/8th the weight of the fresh, so a substitute for 5 lbs of fresh would be 10 ounces of dried. However, you might want to bump that up a tad, since the cherries probably lose a little aromatics during the drying process... I've purchased, but not yet used a concentrate from Brownwood Acres - please report back your results if you go that direction. Lastly, I would add the cherries after the initial fermentation is just about done. That will save some of the cherry flavor from being lost to the atmosphere... Mark Nelson Atlanta GA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:32:32 -0500 From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com> Subject: PBW as a sanitizer Greetings, I have read all the posts about One Step, Oxyclean, ect. I usually make a little more than 5 gallons, kegging most and a few bottles for competition. I soak the bottles in a standard solution of PBW and rinse well in hot water. Are they sanitzed after a certain time? I haven't had any problems, but again I only bottle about 6 at a time. I hoped that the Ph of solution is high enough to kill any critters......... Regards, David B. Craft Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery Greensboro, NC Apparent Rennarian 478.4, 152 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:46:34 -0500 From: "Jodie" <jodie at ga.prestige.net> Subject: Re: Frozen liquid ale yeast? Can't speak for liquid brewing yeast, but I have kept bread yeast in the freezer. Let it warm with the other ingredients in my bread maker, and the resulting bread has been great. I make bread more often now (though not as often as my cats) so I keep the yeast in the fridge these days. Made killer foccacia last weekend. Have to repeat it for the Super Bowl this weekend! Now if only my first batch of beer--which will be ready to taste this weekend--came out okay ;) Jodie Barthlow Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:16:01 -0500 From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu> Subject: Moving Brews Company? Hey y'all, I've been trying to purchase a pump for my RIMS system from Moving Brews for about 2 weeks now. Their website says they are on "Holiday/Winter break". This has been since December 26th. Anyone have any experience with these guys around this time of year? It's the 31st of January, I would think they'd be back in business by now. Anyone know the scoop here? I am waiting on my pump to finish the plumbing for my new system. I have looked at other options, including some vendors who sell March pumps, but they all want $20-$30 more than Moving Brews. I want this pump in particular...I know their are plenty of other magnetically coupled pump manufacturers out there. Any insight is greatly appreciated. Drewmeister Andrew Nix Department of Mechanical Engineering Virginia Tech anix at vt.edu http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:53:55 -0500 From: john.mcgowan at us.abb.com Subject: Further stuck fermentation All this talk of stuck fermentation compels me to write to ask the collective about my current dilemma. I brewed 10 gallons of IPA with the following grain bill: 25# Pale 2# Munich 2# Crystal 60L 1# CaraPils OG: 1.072 Split batch: 5 gal with WLP005 (British Ale); 5 gal with WLP051 (California V) Aerated very well, but didn't have time to build up starters, so pitched directly from vials. After six days gravity was down to 1.030 (in both carboys), with no activity in the airlock. Roused the yeast -- No further activity. One day later added 2.5 tsp of yeast nutrient (ID Carlson) to each and shook. No change. Repeated previous step two days later. Still nothing. After 14 days, gravity of both is still 1.030 The beer is still a bit sweet and even masks the 10 oz of Centennial. I was shooting for a FG of 1.018 - 1.022. Your thoughts? John McGowan Hopewell, NJ (just down the hill from the Lindbergs' old place) PS: I was intending to dump a stout on this yeast this weekend. Good or bad idea? JM Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:42:54 -0500 From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com> Subject: Moving Brews: gone? Brewers, On Moving Brews website, on the order page, it states: "Effective Wednesday, December 26, 2001, 6:00 PM EST, we will not be accepting any new orders until further notice. We will be taking a Holiday/Winter break." Does anyone know if Bill is every coming back? If so, when? If not, who sells a nice sight glass like his: http://www.movingbrews.com/images/sightx2.jpg? Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA [394.9, 147.9] Apparent Rennerian Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:04:37 -0500 From: "Kristen Chester" <kristen at cambridge.com> Subject: Re: Fermentation, Fruit Concentrates Eric Dahlberg wrote: <snip> My other question concerns fruit beers. I want to brew a Cherry Stout. The one I am considering is from Papazian and calls for 5 lbs. Sour cherries. I can't find an affordable source of fresh or frozen cherries this time of year </snip> Another thing you might want to try is dried cherries. They are my traditional "secret ingredient" in my annual barleywine. I'm not sure what the dried/fresh ratio is, but I can tell you that about 1/4 lb. provides a nice subtle cherry aroma in 5 gallons of beer. With a pound of dried cherries, you will get a noticable taste and aroma. (I would imagine that would come close to the 5 lb effect in Papazian's recipe). You should be able to find dried tart cherries in your local grocery or specialty foods market. I usually add the dried cherries to the boil, about 20 minutes before the end. The boiling wort will extract both flavor and color from the cherries. Just scoop or filter them out at the end, and ferment as usual. Hope this helps. Cheers! Kristen Chester I'm writing this from Reston, VA But I don't know where the heck I am Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:48:30 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com> Subject: Sanitizing and Cleaning Each month without fail there are post on sanitizing. Questions about which sanitizer is the best on this or that. Do I need to use bleach, hydrogen peroxide, One Step, B-Bright or iodophor. While sanitizing is good, it isn't the most important thing. Before you sanitize, CLEAN, CLEAN and CLEAN AGAIN. The most important thing in preventing infections is cleaning. Take your equipment apart and clean every crack and crannie until it is as shinny as it was when new. The little green scrubbies are great for this. After you have your brewery items clean, sanitize. I use iodophor, but others are probably just as good Using a sanitizer without a good cleaning just doesn't get the job done. A good cleaning without sanitizing will kill more "nasties" than a good sanitizing without the cleaning. Those of you who think cleaning with a wipe and a promise will work because you sanitize, most likely will have problems with infections down the road. Jim Bermingham Millsap, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:59:01 -0500 From: Ron Bach <bachian at juno.com> Subject: Meadllennium V Results Thanks to everyone who sent entries in to Meadllennium V. The competition was a complete success with 76 total entries including some sent all the way from Alaska! The results are posted at www.cfhb.org Ron Bach Meadllennium V Organizer Orlando, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:47:04 -0500 From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com Subject: PTOs and IBUs Steve Alexander asks the driving question: > Do you think the PTO adapter for my > grain mill is going too far ? Don't think that it hasn't been considered ... I know that 540RPM is a tad fast for my Valley Mill, though ... And the takeaway message on the Hop Clock: > If this is right (and it's just a guess a > far as the factor goes) then 1hr at boiling > is equivalent to 9 hours at 80C or 3+ days > at 60C, or a month at 40C or most of a year > at 20C. See, I knew that if I kept asking the question in different ways, I'd pry out an answer ... I think that this confirms what both Ray Daniels and I were thinking - Immersion chiller in the kettle to knock down the high heat out of the wort, and the CFC to get it where you want for pitching. That solves the question of what to do with the other half of the roll of Cu tubing from the HERMS coil ... Thanks! Mark in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:57:29 -0500 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: BUZZ OFF Homebrew Competition For those scheduling other regional competitions or who want to judge, steward or enter the BUZZ OFF Homebrew Competition, please take note that this competition will be held on Saturday, June 1st, at the Iron Hill Restaurant and Brewery in West Chester, PA. As has been the custom, the BUZZ OFF will be an MCAB V qualifying event. More information and logistics will be posted at a later date and on the BUZZ web site. Dave Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:11:13 -0500 From: "Dennis Lewis" <DBLewis at LewisDevelopment.com> Subject: RE: FWH and boilovers Steve and Glenn wrote... > >But what I /have/ noticed is that my FWH brews, foaming and boil over have > >been reduced. Boiling is less explosive and the foam is only a thin cover > >which is easily broken. <snip> > Absolutely - sweet wort is much more likely to boilover than the same wort > shortly after hops have been added, with obvious implications for FHW. > Someone on this digest suggested years ago adding some of the hops early to > prevent boilovers. In the book "The Practical Brewer" http://www.mbaa.com/publication/pubtx.html it is recommended that 10% of the bittering hop charge be added to the first runnings to prevent boilover. I recall thinking that it was just adding nucleation sites for the boil so that no large bubbles would form. (Like adding boiling chips to nasty boiling experiments in chemistry class.) No mention is made (that I can recall) about the benefits of FWH. However, I have read in this digest that FWH with harsh bittering hops can lead to less than desirable aroma in the finished beer, so be careful what you're throwing in. Given that this book is written for the large mega-swill brewers, there isn't much bitterness to begin with and even less aroma, so I suppose that FWH wouldn't be much of a concern for them. Dennis Lewis [175.3mi, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian (aka Warren, Ohio) In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength. In water there is bacteria. --German Proverb Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:33:46 -0800 From: Steve Casselman <sc at vcc.com> Subject: Dump Gump Attention: All AHA members I've left a long message about dumping Gump (Rob Moline) from the AHA board of advisors. I don't believe that he should be representing anyone and I'd like your help to get him off the board. http://www.beertown.org/discus/messages/4/132.html?1012526816 Go find out what kind of person represents you... Rob had dumped no too many people now it is time to Dump Gump.... Thanks for your help.. Steve Casselman >From the beginning of my message Dump Gump. Fellow members of the AHA, I need your help. My name is Steve Casselman and I am currently the Chairman of the Board of Advisors for the AHA. You may also know me from my work as Chairman of the BJCP Sub-committee on styles that resulted in the current BJCP Style Guide. I have worked with many people over the years and I think most of them will agree that I'm fair and ethical and usually a non-critical, helpful person. However I have run up against a problem where I need your help. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:40:35 -0800 From: "Doug L." <blackshp at sunshinecable.com> Subject: Fw: historical beer /yeast - ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug L. To: homebrew Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:10 AM Subject: historical beer /yeast Dose anyone out there know HOW DID THE BREWERIES,{from before pasteurization-pure liquid yeast}ACTIVATE THERE BEER.-We don't dare use anything but a pure strained,from whitelabs or WYeast to make our brew for fear of contaminating organisms spoiling our beer.This makes perfect since to me.-I know that lambic is made by open fermentation/air born yeast and whatever else finds its way in there.THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION.I'm trying to find out how breweries from relatively resent times,say from the time IPA's were brewed for those guys in India.Or the miners from the gold rush days.All those hundreds of breweries,if not thousands of breweries needed yeast.WHERE DID THEY GET THERE YEAST?----and once they did have some HOW DID THEY KEEP IT HEALTHY?-we know as brewers that you can only reuse the slurry a few times.Whitelabs suggests six to ten times before terfing that yeast and starting with fresh stuff.-Personally I only reuse it a couple times before starting with a fresh batch.---I think its fare to say these old breweries made good beer.So,how did they do it?Did they get a starter going by open air fermentation? I have made a starter this way and I'm currently brewing with it.The beer's not bottled yet,but it has no off flavors and my starter has performed like any pure liquid yeast I've ever used.OG-1040-eight days latter-1006. ANYWAY-if you know or have some idea how these old brewers did there thing I'd really like to hear about it.......THANKS...Doug Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:02:20 -0500 From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com> Subject: FWH & boilover Steve A wote: >>But what I /have/ noticed is that my FWH brews, foaming and boil over have >>been reduced. >My hunch is that the hops phenolics (which are much more likely to bind to >proteins) form enough break to prevent the proteins from participating in >boiler foam. Hops have a *lot* of phenolic material compared to malt - but >most is retained in the break. The protein is responsible for the foam. Thanks for the info. This is what I thought. Especially since when I inspect the boil, the particles rolling in it look different. It's hard to pull them out and inspect them properly, but I do find what looks to be hop particles covered in brown/green slime. My biggest question is that why hasn't this been noticed by others and why is the advice to "add hops only after your wort is boiling" still persisting? I know some doubt the claims of smoother and stronger flavor through FWH saying that FWH has no effect in these aspects. Therefore, why not add them before the boil and avoid a boilover if there is no net effect on flavor? Maybe we're talking about the difference between isomerizations at boiling vs. isomerizations at temperatures below boiling. Maybe the oils extracted below boiling temperatures isomerize differently or not at all during boiling. But then wouldn't that effect flavor, aroma or bitterness, spoiling the above assertion that there is no difference? Ponderous... *&^# ! ponderous! ;-) Glen A. Pannicke glen at pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net 75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD "We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush Return to table of contents
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