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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Superbowl brews ("Chad Gould")
  Gott Cooler Thermometer ("John Zeller")
  Fermenter response.......... (John Maylone)
  RE: Thermometers ("David Houseman")
  Subject: Gott Cooler Thermometer ("Mike")
  Re: Thermometers ("Ken Taborek")
  Re: Bottles for Barleywine ("Ken Taborek")
  Gott Thermometer (Bill Wible)
  Re: Superbowl brews ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: fermenters ("Kurt Schweter")
  re: Superbowl brews (susan woodall)
  re: Sour Cherry Concentrate (susan woodall)
  Fermenters ("Kirk Fleming")
  Fermentors / skim / thermometer / order (Crossno Clan)
  HERMS/fermenters (David Passaretti)
  Re: Gott Cooler Thermometer (bdk)
  Abts False Bottoms (Andrew Nix)
  Re: Hop Floaties (Steven S)
  Re: Indoor automated brewing (Steven S)
  Re: Grain/Water Ratio and other mashing techniques ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Re: Newbie question - rehydrated yeast temperature ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  Bottle sanitizing (Bob Sheck)
  Re:  Cherry Concentrate (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: Grain/Water Ratio and other mashing techniques ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Further stuck fermentation (john.mcgowan)
  Yeast questions...... (Steve C Cobble)
  RE: historical beer /yeast ("Bob Hall")
  Re:  Newbie question [Hydrating/pitching dry yeast] ("Ralph Davis")
  carbonation chart in british ("Chris Hatton")
  Suitable beer clarifiers... ("Ralph Davis")


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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:08:42 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Superbowl brews

> What is everybody planning on drinking during Superbowl?  Purely by
chance,
> I have a doppelbock on tap for the game (going for the Rams theme).

Hmm. :) The brew I made late December is a light "sweet stout". (By light I
mean only 3% alcohol or so, but still sweet like a Mackeson) So I'll bring
that to the Super Bowl party I've been invited to, drink up, and maybe share
a few.

An added benefit is that I can enjoy copious quantities of this beer, still
be quite competent, and definitely not wake up with a hangover. Can't say
the same for drinkers of some other brands of beer. :)




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:55:04 -0800
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Gott Cooler Thermometer

Mike Rogers asked how to install a thermometer in a Gott cooler mash tun 
(HBD # 3855).  I have had good results simply drilling a hole through the 
sidewall of the cooler and inserting the thermometer probe.  Drill the hole 
slightly smaller than the probe for a snug fit and it will self seal.  
Simple, cheap and effective.

Dave Larsen in the same HBD inquired about using a deep frying (turkey 
fryer?) type dial thermometer with concern about temperature range and 
accuracy.  I would suggest using the frying thermometer for frying and 
getting another one for brewing which should have a narrower range with 
finer graduations.  Dave, each "notch" or gradiation mark should be no more 
than two degrees for an accurate reading.  The range need only be from about 
50F to 250F or so.  Most of the time you will be reading in the vicinity of 
150F.  You can find a good dial thermometer with a long probe at nearly any 
homebrew shop, local or mail order for about $10 or so.  One thing you will 
want to do is check it for accuracy and calibrate it if necessary.  A 
"fever" type glass thermometer works well for calibrating.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:57:04 -0800
From: John Maylone <mrkoala at mac.com>
Subject: Fermenter response..........


I want to thank everyone collectively who responded to my request for input
on the subject of fermenters.

At first I was going to answer them all personally, but there are just too
many.  Every response I received was helpful and articulate.  I read most of
them to my wife, and given our tendency to break breakable things, she is
nudging me toward a stainless steel conical.......if I can make myself bite
off the expense, which looks to be $430-560 or so "out the door" .....

Big gulp, and not a homebrew!!!

Thanks again!

John



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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:53:43 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Thermometers

I agree that the thermometer is one of the most important tools that we use.
There's and old saying that a man with two watches is never sure what time
it is.  This holds true for thermometers as well.  Having at least one that
is Certified is quite helpful and look for thermometers that are easily
adjusted so you can calibrate in an ice water bath and boiling water.

Dave Houseman
SE PA



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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:41:08 -0500
From: "Mike" <brewski at inet99.net>
Subject: Subject: Gott Cooler Thermometer

A friend of mine has a 18, or may be it is 24, inch long SS thermocouple and
a meter to plug it into. It is 1/4 inch in diameter.

We popped the breather plug out of the underside of the Gott lid and drilled
a 1/4 inch hole through the top. Now by rotating the lid and moving the
probe up and down we can measure the temp anywhere in the cooler without
removing the lid.

We have a hook made out of a clothes hanger that holds the thermocouple in
the kettle. The kettle is used first to heat the mash water, then to heat
the sparge water, to brew and cool the wort before transfering to the
carboy. That thermocouple, which is on a 12 ft or so cord is moved back and
forth to where we need to be monitoring the temp and the meter doesn't have
to be moved.

This is one item of our brew equipment that makes brewing more enjoyable.

Mike





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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:52:04 -0500
From: "Ken Taborek" <Ken.Taborek at Verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Thermometers

> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:53:22 -0700
> From: Dave Larsen <HunahpuMonkey at home.com>
> Subject: Thermometers

[snipped]

> Having just moved into all-grain brewing within the last six
> months, I've noticed that one of the most important pieces
> of equipment is the thermometer.
>
> I've got one of those deep fry thermometers with the long
> poker, and I love is for that.

> What I don't like is that because it is a deep fry
> thermometer, the temp goes up to 750 F, and the range I need
> is so small on the damn thing.

> What does everyone else use?

Dave,

I've had a similar experience to yours.  It seems to be very difficult to
find a _long_ thermometer with a temperature range suitable for boiling
water (or wort, as the case may be).

After long searches, I've settled on two pieces of equipment.
The first is a candy thermometer, a long glass thermometer mounted to a
protective aluminum strip that is about 2 inches wide.  This has the same
issue as your thermometer, the 'water' scale on it is only about 2" of it's
temperature range.  It has a sliding clip which is great for moving the
thermometer to an appropriate point as the wort level changes.  Even though
the thermometer isn't completely enclosed, the mount is well designed to
protect it from accidental bumps, and I feel very confidant that it will not
break even while I'm stirring the wort.

The second is one of those floaty thermometers with the shot weighted end
that looks pretty much like a hydrometer.  It's in the correct range for
water, which is great, but I only use it when the wort isn't being agitated,
since it's free floating, swirls around with the wort, and can (and has)
taken some pretty hard bumps.  It also requires a pretty deep draft to float
freely, but you mentioned that you're all grain now, so I'd guess that your
brew pot is deep enough for it.  It's fine for measuring sparge water, mash
temps, and determining if the wort has cooled to pitching temperature.

Cheer,
Ken
Northern VA




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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:00:36 -0500
From: "Ken Taborek" <Ken.Taborek at Verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Bottles for Barleywine

> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:43:00 -0600
> From: "Sieja, Edward M" <EMSieja at ingr.com>
> Subject: Bottles for Barleywine
>
>
> Our club has recently brewed a barleywine and are
> looking for possible sources for 7oz nip bottles or
> something similar.  This is for a 5 gallon batch, so
> our purchase would be limited.  Anyone know of a
> good source for these ??
>
> - -- Ed Sieja
> - -- Madison, AL

Ed,

You could try the 7oz Coronita bottles.
I've heard plenty of invective against Corona on this forum, but I say
there's a place for almost any beer.  Corona & lime is fine for the summer
months as a cooling thirst quencher.  Since you're looking to use them for
your recently brewed barley wine, you should have plenty of time while it
bulk ages to await summer, the Jimmy Buffet tour, and bring a bunch of
Coronitas to the show and cart the empties home to bottle your barley wine.
:)

Cheers,
Ken
Northern VA



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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:17:03 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Gott Thermometer

Mike,

I recently re-did my mash tun with a SS false bottom
instead of the plastic Phils Phalse Bottom, and I
used both the Zymico Kewler Kitz Basic+ bulkhead/
ball valve setup and the Zymico Kewler Kitz Thermothingy
(thermometer bulkhead fitting) to add a thermometer.

On the thermometer fitting, it works great.  It requires
you to drill a 3/8" hole, then just screw it in.  I found
that it was just a little difficult to get started, though,
because it was short.  There was barely enough exposed thread
to start the nut after it was inserted in the hole.  In the
long run, I guess this is good, because I know it's a tight
seal.  

Also, you have to use a thermometer with a good 6" probe
to get into the cooler through the fitting.  A 2" probe
will go in, but it doesn't look there will be enough of
the probe exposed to the mash to get a decent temp reading.

I have used and am very happy with my new setup, especially
the SS false bottom.  I was able to bend it just a little
with a pair of pliers to get it to fit to the exact contour
of my cooler's bottom in just a few minutes.  And unlike the
plastic false bottom, this one does not float.  It gets
nothing under it.  It's great!

I sell all of Zymico's stuff, plus stainless false
bottoms, etc at my website below.

Bill
- --------------------------
Brew By You    
3504 Cottman Ave.
Philadelphia, PA 19149
215-335-BREW (PA)
888-542-BREW (Outside PA)
215-335-0712 (Fax)
www.brewbyyou.net
- ---------------------------




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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:25:26 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Superbowl brews

I think I'll drink your doppelbock.  Where are you and what time should I
show up?



Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:50:41 -0500
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: Re: fermenters

second the vote for cornies - 
10 gallon, yeast brinks etc. 
haven't siphoned in 10 years, washed bottles for that matter


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:56:24 -0800
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: re: Superbowl brews

I will probasbly have to break down and buy some good micro's as I have
run out and have been too busy to brew!  But I will be brewing a pale
ale in the morning before the game.




What is everybody planning on drinking during Superbowl?  Purely by
chance,
I have a doppelbock on tap for the game (going for the Rams theme).





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:59:09 -0800
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: re: Sour Cherry Concentrate

Where did  you get that concentrate?  i would like to get some!





Hi,
I'm seeing posts about using dried cherries in your beer.  I will post
based on my own experience.

Trial #1 was 8 oz of dried cherries in the secondary of a brown ale.
Mild
cherry aroma and flavor.  Just at threshold.

Trial #2 was a quart of that famous sour cherry concentrate.  This made
cherry beer.  I wouldn't go quite so far as to  say that I made New
Glarus
Belgian Cherry Red.  However, this beer had HUGE cherry flavor and
aroma.   Ask some of those guys in the Madison Homebrewers and Tasters
Guild.

My opinion (for what it's worth)?  I'll stick with the sour cherry
concentrate.  The mead I made is doing quite well also.
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:22:41 -0800
From: "Kirk Fleming" <kirkfleming at earthlink.net>
Subject: Fermenters

In #3855 "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> advises:
>
Plastic buckets are fine to use as a primary fermentation vessel ...[but]
unless made from a high density plastic...they will be gas permeable..making
these vessels undesirable for use during the longer secondary fermentation
phase.  The second problem with plastic is that it is easily scratched.
>
All good points. This is a good example of how specific brewing practices
factor in. I know some folks leave their ales in 2ndary for months--not
always by choice but due to busy schedules, etc. I just don't have concerns
with the issues Larry raises because:

a) I use one yeast exclusively, fermentation is complete in well under 72
hrs (usually 24)--there is no 2ndary. After ~2 days in the fermenter,
beverage goes into the "serving cask"--a Corny keg.
b) The only thing that ever touches the interior of the fermenter is
Iodophor, beer and a washcloth--scratches haven't been an issue. Oh, I did
catch my daughters using it as a wash bucket once when they decided to wash
their cars. Oooops.
c) I'm guessing the krauesen layer (open to the atmosphere) is more O2
permeable than the HDPE or whatever this bucket is (Prolon)--that may seem
intuitive, but it may not be true.

Larry's points are still valid--I'm not taking issue with them. If you store
your chiller in your fermenter, for example, you'll have scratches, and HDPE
is about 40-50 times more permeable to O2 than PET, and 'several' times more
permeable than stainless or glass :-).

Kirk Fleming
FRSE, FRSL





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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 12:20:22 -0600
From: Crossno Clan <crossno at tnns.net>
Subject: Fermentors / skim / thermometer / order

Fermentors:
I started with glass and now use plastic buckets from the donut shop for
all my primaries.  Except mead, which is always in glass.

In "20 Tips for Better Brewing" by Kinney Baughman,
http://www.byo.com/feature/85.html
Kinney writes:
"6. Eliminate the dreaded boilover! It has happened to every brewer. But
it does not have to keep happening. Have you ever noticed how boilover
usually happens during the first few minutes of the boil? This is
because proteins in the wort coagulate and form a sticky film as the
wort comes to a boil. This film literally blows into a giant wort bubble
once steam is released from the wort at the onset of the boil. There are
two ways to help prevent this wort bubble from forming: 

*Skim off the thick, creamy protein head that forms on top of the wort
as it approaches boiling temperature. 
*Throw a few hops into the wort before it comes to a boil. "

I used a meat thermometer for the first few batches.  Then I killed them
in the smoker.  I bought a digital meat thermometer for smoking
Christmas eve dinner. 
;-)

   "Where is a good place to mail order all-extract kits from?"
How about supporting the people who support HBD!!!!  
http://www.northernbrewer.com
http://www.morebeer.com/
http://store.yahoo.com/kitsandkegs/index.html
http://www.zymico.com 
I also use http://www.grapeandgranary.com/,
and if you have the opportunity support your local shop.  Steep some
specialty malt, it is easy and your taste buds will thank you.

And another thing, if you want to read beer, check out
http://hbd.org/brewery/.  That is where I got the link to "20 Tips for
Better Brewing" by Kinney Baughman"

Glyn in TN
Only Denis lives semi close, and he never writes or come to visit
anymore :-(


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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:45:44 -0800 (PST)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: HERMS/fermenters

I am attempting to automate a HERMS (thank you Nate,
Bill, CD, and others for your input) system and have
at my
disposal a Gefran 3300 PID controller. It has what is
called an analog output (0-10V). I know
nothing about these controllers. Does anyone know if
there is anyway to use this controller to turn a mag
drive pump on/off or control a solenoid?

On another topic, I use a sanke keg for a fermneter
and would never again use anything else. I had a
welder cut the top off of a cornie keg and weld it to
the top of the sanke. To clean I simply wipe down the
inside with a sponge and warm water. To sanitize, I
put one quart of water in it, attach a pressure valve
to the gas out of the cornie top and heat on a burner
until 20-25psi is reached. I then turn off the burner
and allow to cool. I leave the fermneter in a
refrigerator next to my brewery with a temperature
controller on it. The wort is pumped through a CFC
directly into the fermenter. I can then use CO2 to
move the finished product to cornie kegs for serving.
No lifting, no moving, no exposure to air or
contamination, one fermenter for 12 gallons, and fool
proof sanitation without chemicals.  Works well for
me.  

Thanks

David Passaretti
Cincinnati, OH




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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:57:59 -0800 (PST)
From: bdk at srl.caltech.edu
Subject: Re: Gott Cooler Thermometer

In HBD #3855 Mike Rogers asks:

> I have a 10 gal. Gott cooler that works excellent for mashing, however, I
> would like to take temperature readings without uncapping and submersing a
> float thermometer.  I see that Zymico (http://www.bobbrews.com/zymico.html)
> carries a $10 bulk head fitting for adding a thermometer.  Does anyone have
> a thermometer installed in their Gott cooler?   Has anyone used the Zymico
> fitting?  Any experiences, good/bad?

I have an easy alternative.  I use a 5-gal cooler, and I drilled a hole in
the lid and stuck in a dial thermometer with a 12-inch stem.  The
hole is a tight enough that the thermometer won't slip on its
own, but I can pull it out when I want to.  There are two good things 
about this -- I can push / pull the thermometer to different
heights to convince myself that the temperature is the same everywhere,
and it's always in place whenever the lid is on.  I can't think of
a simpler arrangement.

Incidentally, I also have a whirlygig attached to the same lid (and
no, I don't think it actually does anything, but the little lady
is convinced that the creak-creak sound makes me the
most technically advanced brewer on the planet), so I just
put the thermometer off-center so that the gig doesn't whirl into it.
This also means by spinning the lid a bit, the thermometer samples
a different part of the mash, so I can see temperature differences
around the tun as well as up / down, without removing the lid.

I can't remember where I got the long thermometer, whether it was
at the local homebrew shop or McMaster Carr, or whatever -- but I'm
sure it didn't cost me more than $20.


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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:23:58 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Abts False Bottoms

If anyone has any experience with Abts False Bottoms, please send me a 
message.  I finally purchased my pump today for my RIMS (I found it close 
to the price of Moving Brews...within $5, since I couldn't wait any 
longer).  All I have left to get is the false bottom.  I'm low on cash, 
like most people probably, and can get the Abts false bottom for 1/2 to 1/3 
of the cost of a Sabco one.  The only question is whether the smaller 
volume under the false bottom with the Abts is a problem.

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix



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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:19:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Hop Floaties



>From: Dave Larsen <HunahpuMonkey at home.com>
>Subject: Hop Floaties
>
>I just started dry hopping within the last couple of batches
>I've done.  Where I love the better flavor, this has
>introduced a new problem.   I get an excess amount of hop
>chunks that never settle out.

Hrm i've been dry hopping both in and out of hop sacks. I gave up on hop
sacks since it was such a PITA to get them out of the carboy. I dry hop
in the primary, most of the hop bits drop with the yeast. If i was doing
it in the secondary a sack would probably help since there is not much to
attact the hops and help settle things out.

Are you using pellets, plugs or whole hops?

I used about a 1/2 oz of hops consisting of cascade and saaz in my belgian
wit with very pleasing results. Sure its not true to the style but the
hops aroma just gets to me! It all settled out nice from the
primary/secondary.



 Steven St.Laurent ::: steven at 403forbidden.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian







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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:24:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Indoor automated brewing

>Am I missing something?  Or is the main difference between a
>"restaurant" stove heat output and a regular kitchen stove heat output
>the burner?  IOW, why not just replace one burner (and control) on the
>regular kitchen stove?   (Assuming that there's nothing overhead that
>would cause a fire hazard.)

Yes, something you dont see. Commercial stoves use 1/2" or larger gas
lines under much higher pressure than home units. Replacing the burner
would not accomplish anything without re-plumbing a good deal of gas line.
A friend of mine wanted a commercial stove, but after having the prospect
of replacing their gas lines and upgrading the regulator outside the cost
outweighted the benefits. According to a neighbor who did do this they get
poor gas pressure also. Not sure if this is the service or the meter
outside though.

You also have to ventilate well and account for the greater heat. There is
a reason commercial stoves use big beefy iron burner.



 Steven St.Laurent ::: steven at 403forbidden.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian








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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:19:51 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Grain/Water Ratio and other mashing techniques

Chris Edison asks about the amount of water in the mash.

The first homebrewing book I ever read was Brewing Quality Beers by Byron
Burch, an accomplished brewer.  In his book, Burch states, "The standard
ratio of water to grain is 1.1 quarts of water for every pound of grain", so
I quickly got in the habit of using 1.1 quarts per pound and never
experimented with this much.  I find it interesting that Steve Alexander
indicates that he considers 1.25-1.5 quarts per pound as being "typical"
(standard).  I suppose what is standard for one is considerably atypical for
another.  Obviously, as Steve has clearly stated, water:grist ratio is yet
another controllable variable that can be used to adjust the final product
(to one's taste).  

I'd love to know the water:grist ratios (and other mashing techniques) used
in our favorite single-infusion (stepped and unstepped) commercial beers.
Anyone have this info?
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:40:08 -0500
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Newbie question - rehydrated yeast temperature

Walt writes: 

> This collective is awesome!  Searching the archives, I find
instructions
> to rehydrate dried yeast in 90 Degree - 100 Degree water ( I know the
> high end is bad so will try 90 - 92), wait thirty minutes and pitch
into
> chilled wert.  Other searches say when pitching liquid or starter
yeast
> to try and match the temperature of the yeast to that of the wert.
Other
> searches say the wert needs to be cooled to approx. 70 Degrees.   I
need
> to come to grips with the correct temperature combo of wert with
> rehydrated yeast.


Walt,

Typically a range of conflicting opinions on a topic (such as pitching
temperature) indicates that there is not a large difference in results
within the disputed range.  Observed differences are more apt to be due
to some other, uncontrolled, variable.

Let's take a look at the information you found and see if we can make
sense of it.  First I will assume you are brewing ales.  During
fermentation the yeast generate heat as they consume the sugar.  As the
temperature gets warmer than the range recommended for that yeast, the
yeast start to produce larger quantities of esters, higher alcohols and
similar stuff that can impart nasty tastes to your beer.  To make
matters worse, as the temperature gets higher, the rate of fermentation
goes up, and the temperature goes up even faster.  Thus you do not want
to pitch your yeast into wort that is above the recommended temperature
for that yeast (70 degrees is not a bad limit) since you would be giving
it a head start on the higher temperatures.

Now let's look at yeast temperature.  The volume of yeast that you will
be pitching into the wort is typically much less then the temperature of
the wort, so it will not significantly affect the temperature of the
wort.  The general idea with yeast is to have it ready to start
fermenting as soon as it is pitched into the wort before other microbes
can get going.  The suggestion to match the temperature of the yeast and
wort is probably based on the idea that a sudden temperature change will
"shock" the yeast.  Is that good or bad?  I don't know, but you can find
different opinions on this topic.  The instructions for dried yeast are
the same for all dried yeast that I am aware of, for beer or bread, so
personally I would follow them.  I would not sweat it one bit if the
re-hydrated yeast cooled down before I pitched it.

With liquid starters the advice becomes more confusing.  You want a
large volume of yeast so you ferment 1-2 quarts of wort (starter).  At
5-10% of a 5 gallon batch, this can affect the flavor of your beer (due
to faster fermentation of the starter, mismatch between the flavors of
the starter and desired beer, off flavors due to large yeast growth,
etc.)  Thus the general recommendation is to cool the starter once it
has finished fermentation so that the yeast settle out and you can pour
most of the "beer" off, leaving just the yeast to pitch.  Now at what
temperature do you pitch the yeast slurry?  It's probably not that
critical.  

What do I do?  I cool my starter to about 45 degrees for a day or two to
settle the yeast.  Sometimes it has a chance to warm up before I pitch
it into the fermenter after I pour the beer off the yeast, other times
it does not.  I then drain the cooled wort (50-60 degrees) from the
kettle into the fermenter (another temperature change) on top of the
yeast.  Typically within 12 hours it has warmed up enough so that
fermentation has started.  In the winter everything starts out much
cooler then in the summer.  Have I detected a difference?  Nope.  If I
were pitching store bought liquid yeast (small liquid volume) that was
refrigerated, I would let it warm up some on the theory that it would
not hurt (if I remembered to take it out of the fridge early).

To summarize:
	Wort temperature (for ales): at or below fermentation
temperature.
	Re-hydrated yeast: follow typical instructions on the packet.
	1-2 qt liquid starter: pour off the beer and pitch.
	Store bought liquid yeast: pitch.

The last 2 may be controversial, but they work for me.  

Reif Hammond
Durham, NH




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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 23:33:35 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Bottle sanitizing

After initial cleaning all the cigar butts 
and bugs out of my bottles, I always 
rinsed them clean, then put little squares of
foil on the tops, then put them into the oven
at 350F for an hour, let cool and then fill with 
beer. Never had a problem with bottle infection.

Of course, now I keg. When I counter-pressure-fill
for the odd competition I enter, I just soak in Iodophor 
and drip-dry for the few-odd bottles that need to be filled.


Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at skantech.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 23:11:38 -0800
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re:  Cherry Concentrate

Hi Everyone,
I bought my concentrate from Country Mill Orchard in Michigan.  The 
gentleman told me that the vacuum distiller costs somewhere in the 
neighborhood of $500,000 and that some cooperative in weste Michigan bought 
one.  That means that all of this cherry concentrate is probably coming 
from the same place.  Search for "sour cherry concentrate" or "sour cherry 
juice" with Google and find the lowest bidder.
nathan in madison, wi

At 09:05 AM 2/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Nathan,
>What brand and type(some are sweetened) cherry concentrate did you use?
>Cheers,
>Pete



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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 04:49:37 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Grain/Water Ratio and other mashing techniques

Fred L. Johnson writes ...

> In his book, Burch states, "The standard
> ratio of water to grain is 1.1 quarts of water for every pound of grain",
[...]

I checked my references.

M&BS suggests infusion mashes of 1.6 to 3.2 hectoliter/100kg, and a total
(mash+sparge water) of 8.1hL/100kg.  That's  0.77qt/lb to 1.53qt/lb for the
mash and a total of 3.88qt/lb total water.  For decoction M&BS suggests
3.3-5hL/100kg or 1.58 to 2.5qt/lb.  Altho' M&BS gives a wide range for
infusion mashing, their examples use 2.7L/kg or 2.75L/kg (1.28-1.32qt/L) for
infusion mashes.

Kunze suggests 3-3.5hL/100kg (1.44-1.68qt/lb) for dark beers, since the
thicker wort encourages caramelization, and 4-5hL/100kg (1.92-2.4 qt/lb) for
light colored (pale) beers.

J.S Hough in "The Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing" states 2.7L/kg
(1.3qt/lb) is the figure.

Terry Foster in the early PaleAle booklet suggest 1qt/lb.
- --
I'm not troubled by 1.1 qt/lb, but mashing below 1qt/lb is likely to give
erratic results.  There is a "knee" in the activity curves that occurs
around 0.9qt/lb.  Small variations in the amount of water below 1/qt/lb will
make a big difference in the enzyme activity, conversion time and even
extraction rate.   1.25-1.5qt/lb is a good range, well above the
trouble-zone around 0.9qt/lb and yet thick enough to get a quick conversion.

 -S







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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:11:24 -0500
From: john.mcgowan at us.abb.com
Subject: Re: Further stuck fermentation



RJ of the Lakes region responded to my query:

John McGowan of NJ: john.mcgowan at us.abb.com  wrote:

<snip>

OG: 1.072
Split batch: 5 gal with WLP005 (British Ale); 5 gal with WLP051 (California
V)
Aerated very well, but didn't have time to build up starters, so pitched
directly from vials.
After six days gravity was down to 1.030 (in both carboys), with no activity
in
the airlock.
Roused the yeast -- No further activity.
One day later added 2.5 tsp of yeast nutrient (ID Carlson) to each and
shook. No
change.
Repeated previous step two days later. Still nothing.
After 14 days, gravity of both is still 1.030
The beer is still a bit sweet and even masks the 10 oz of Centennial.
I was shooting for a FG of 1.018 - 1.022.
Your thoughts?"

"PS: I was intending to dump a stout on this yeast this weekend. Good or bad
idea?"

<snip>

Well John,

1st two things I'd like to know is what temp(s) did you mash at & how old
was the yeast?

2nd, until you can find the common cause of the current problem, I wouldn't
re-use that yeast.

Ciao,

RJ
43:30:3.298N x 71:39:9.911W
Lakes Region of NH

Reply:

This was a single infusion mash at 154F for 90 minutes. Both vials of yeast had
a "Best before 04-17-02" stamp on them, so I presume they were pretty fresh. So
the same questions stand. (Unfortunately, the Superbowl and family obligations
trumped my brewing plans) :-((

JM
Hopewell, NJ


Comments?




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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:26:58 -0500
From: Steve C Cobble <stevecobble at juno.com>
Subject: Yeast questions......

I'm very new to homebrewing ( just got #1 in the fermenter 5 days ago ),
and it seems their are some quite learned people on this list. I have a
few questions:

How important is the amount of yeast used in brewing? Can you add too
much or too little?? How would these affect the final product? Also, when
reactivating dry yeast, would it make a difference to do so with some of
the cooled wort, or just with water, as the 'beer kit' instructs?
TIA
SteveCobble


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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:34:16 -0500
From: "Bob Hall" <rallenhall at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: historical beer /yeast

Thought you might enjoy this excerpt from "The Lager Beer Industry in 19th 
Century America," by John Hall (no relation), German Life magazine, Dec/Jan, 
1996.

*****************************

A friend Wagner watched nervouly as Jacob Best fingered the dried bricks of 
brown crud.

Brewing German-style lager beer in American had been a great idea. Or so 
Wagner thought. There were millions of Germans already in America. But until 
1840, all attempts to import the delicate lager yeast had failed, and 
thirsty Germans were forced to drink the allegedly inferior British-style 
ales, porters, and stout.

Then Wagner wrote to his brother who worked at a Munich brewery, and told 
him to mix the yeast from the bottom of a fermenting vat with sawdust, then 
dry the mixture in bread pans and ship them to Milwaukee.

No sooner had Wagner parted with the money to cover the shipping cost then 
he decided that the whole idea was pure "Dummheit," so he went to Jacob Best 
hoping to reclaim some of his loss.

At the time, most American breweries were backyard affairs: a wooden shed 
with a brew kettle over an open fire, a 13 barrel capacity storage cellar, 
and a couple of hundred barrels a year in sales ... if you were lucky.

Jacob Best had a larger operation - with storage for about 1,000 barrels - 
which he ran with his four sons. This left Best in a better position to 
speculate on crackbrained schemes like brewing lager beer from cruddy cakes 
of sawdust. But Best wanted to see the yeast first.

So in 1841, Rhenish immigrant Jacob Best stood in his brewery in Milwaukee, 
fingering cakes of yeast that had been dried in Munich, and thinking to 
himself that it just might work.

Best reached into his pocket and pulled out a $5 bill. Wagner took the 
money, and history has not even recorded his first name. As for Best, he 
dissolved the dried cakes in water, filtered out the sawdust, and added the 
yeasty water to his next batch of beer. It was awful.

 ...... It had been several years since Best had brewed lager in Metlenheim 
but he and his sons kept trying, and within six months they were producing a 
decent product for Milwaukee Germans.

 .....  Best's 1,000 barrel a year operation soon doubled, and by 1860 he 
retired and turned the operation over to a flamboyant son-in-law, Captain 
Fredrick Pabst."

*****************************

Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH







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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:51:41 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: Re:  Newbie question [Hydrating/pitching dry yeast]


Hey Walt:

I've converted from using dry yeast to liquid yeast over the last year...the
fermentation usually takes off tremendously that way.  Even with liquid
yeast, White Labs or Wyeast, I always use a starter wort.  However, for
economy sake, dried yeast is fine.  The yeast companies usually say to
re-hydrate it in warm water like you said, but I think it would depend on
the temperature of the yeast--I don't think I'd put yeast straight from the
fridge into 90 degree water--you don't want to shock it.

Best and easiest though is to make a starter wort the day before brewing....
To do this dump 3/4 a cup of dried malt extract into a pint mason jar (or
for even better results use a full quart container), add water until its at
a good OG (1.040?) , microwave it for like 10 mins (you can add a few
pellets of hops to keep it from boiling over), then cap it, and cool it (I
usually set in in the refrigerator for a couple hours).  When at room
temperature, pitch all your yeast into this starter, and put an airlock on
the jar, shake it vigorously for a few minutes and set it aside  (Best is
using an Erlenmyer flask for this as you can boil this mini-wort right on
the stove that way, and airlocks fit easily on
top.....but those things cost something--often I've just loosened the mason
jar's cap...)  Then brew the full wort  the next day and pitch this starter
into your cooled wort.  You'll get VERY energetic fermentations that way as
you are actually pitching a LOT more yeast.

The Czechs apparently always over-pitch their yeast--and that's good enough
for me!



Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin




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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:42:29 -0500
From: "Chris Hatton" <chrishatton23 at hotmail.com>
Subject: carbonation chart in british

In the HBD website, there is a great chart which has on the x axis 
grams/liter of dextrose, on the y axis total Volume of CO2 in atmospheres. 
It plots the carbonation levels of beers at various temperatures in celsius. 
Is there a chart which expresses the priming sugar and degrees in british 
units posted somewhere on the Internet or in someone's hard drive?? ? I 
think there is one in the old BT mag from July/Aug 96, but you have to order 
the back issue and I would like it sooner and freer.
Anyone? Thank you in advance...

Private response OK/preferred

Chris Hatton
Hoboken, NJ







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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:23:21 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: Suitable beer clarifiers...

I know every brewer has his special technique for clarifying--but I'm
curious as to the collectives' varied views anyway.

What clarifier works most consistently the best (without effecting flavour)?

I use Irish moss toward the end of the boil, and I've been using Polyclar in
the 2ndary fermentation.

Just recently I have 2 beers in 2ndary, a Schwartzbier and a Double Bock.
After a few weeks both had crud still floating around the top of the carboy
and looked pretty murky(esp. in the Bock).  I wanted to try something new
besides polyclar so I combined a teaspoon of polyclar AND a tablespoon of
Bentonite into a pint of water and boiled it for 10 mins.  I don't hear much
about bentonite for beer--it seems to be more used in wines, and I'm
wondering if anyone knows why(?)...  Anyway, after it cooled I poured the
gunk into the Double Bock and wham(!) the next day 2 to 3 inches of crud
dropped out of solution.  Such amounts have never occurred to me while using
polyclar alone.  I've wracked the bock into another sanitized carboy and the
murkiness is gone; it looks remarkably clear for a darker beer.

Anyway for the Schwartzbier I wanted to be a bit more gentle, so I just
added a teaspoon of polyclar with a cup of water(boiled).  Two days later
nothing very noticeable dropped out visible in the carboy.  Still murky with
crud floating around, so I added bentonite earlier today and now again 2+
inches of crud have piled up in the bottom of the carboy.  I hope bentonite
isn't too strong, as I'd hate to lose the special flavours of these unique
lagers--also with the schwartzbier I want to keep it as black as possible...

Anyway: Opinions?  Expert (or semi-expert) explanations or views? Any better
clarifiers?  Gelatin? Cold storage?

Non-cloudy beer is nice to have, so I'd like to hear what y'all say...

Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian



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