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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Adelaide Bulk Grain Purchase (Darren Miller)
  The mash tun delema ("Badger/DJ Sable/Project Mercury")
  low gravity (leavitdg)
  That Guinness "Tang" (Pat Babcock)
  IBU Calculations / Stupid Brewer Tricks, Redux ("R. Schaffer-Neitz")
  Chicago Beer Stores (Rick)
  basements and plastic ("Andrew Moore")
  Arrested Fermentation for NA ("Michael R. Brzezowski")
  Re: Whole hops and Low OG ("Larry Bristol")
  Guinness "Tang" (Nathan Kanous)
  cement and Guinness tang (Marc Sedam)
  Re: The mash tun delema ("Larry Bristol")
  2206 - weird yeast behavior (Alan Meeker)
  Maple wine ("Todd M. Snyder")
  re: Saflager S23 / S189 (Paul Kensler)
  RE: Sparkalloid (Brian Lundeen)
  RE 5 gal vs 10 Gallon Gott Cooler (Don Lake)
  The mash tun delema (LJ Vitt)
  re: NON-Pressure Canning Wort (Don Lake)
  re: The mash tun delema (Rama Roberts)
  Stupid brewer tricks v.200.z ("Tom Logan")
  RE:  The mash tun delema (Bill Tobler)
  Oxyclean Incident ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re: pressure canning wort (Rob Dewhirst)
  Brewpubs in Vancouver (Matt Gavin-Wear)
  Beligum Ale Yeast ("Chris Strickland")
  Servomyces ("cwaters")
  Weizen Yeast from Bottle? (Andrew Nix)


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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:41:11 +1030
From: Darren Miller <darren.miller at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Adelaide Bulk Grain Purchase

Howdy Brewers,
I am trying to organise a bulk malted barley purchase from Adelaide
Maltings. Anyone in Adelaide or surrounds interested in helping to make
up the 500 kg quantity we need to be able to purchase? Pale Malt is
80c/kg and comes in 20 and 50 kg sacks. I have managed to scrape up
orders for 350 kg so far. EMAIL me to let me know if you are interested.
P.S. I DONOT make any profit on the grain. 
cheers
Darren


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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:07:37 -0800
From: "Badger/DJ Sable/Project Mercury" <badger at badger.cx>
Subject: The mash tun delema

From: "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
Subject: The mash tun delema

>Soon I will begin my journy into all grain brewing and I am in the begining
>stages of building my mash tun. I have decided to go with the rubbermaid
>beverage cooler as my vessel because I believe that they are the most well
>insulated. I have one delema, I'm not sure wether to use 5 gallon or 10
>gallon coolers.

I would go with a 10 gallon cooler for two reasons.

1. if you end up doing an all grain mash with a huge grain bill, then you
will need more than 5 gallons, so this leaves your options open for size of
grain bill you can do for a 5 gallon batch.
2. if you ever decide to do a 10 gallong batch, (or a 7 gallon batch with
some for the keg and some for hte bottle) then you can do a modest grain
bill easy enough in your 10 gallon.

Going with the 10 gallon leaves your options open for future brew expansion.

badger



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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 06:33:23 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: low gravity

Brian mentions using Wyeast 2112 (California Lager ) and getting a much
lower final gravity than he'd anticipated...I think that that yeast is
not real attenuative, that is, it leaves behind more sugars than some
of its cousins...It is really as low in attenuation as any that I see
from Wyeast. (67-71%).

I do not know about the extract that you used...but some here have posted
that some extracts have more 'unfermentables' in them as well...then too, 
did you watch your fermentation temperatures?

Just some thoughts...I wouldn't think that the hops were a factor..

 .Darrell


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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:06:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: That Guinness "Tang"

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Well, I purchased some Guinness Pub Draught Sunday to enjoy with
our kids' grandparents. There is definitely a flavor component
that tickles the taste buds in the area where the bitter sensinf
buds are closest to the sour sensors. In "Kim-speak", this is
hte "back corners" of the tongue. Due to where this sensation
pops up on the tongue, I'm not at all surprised regarding the
interpretation of this as a sourness or by the interpretation of
it as a bitterness. Due to the sour note, I can particularly see
it being classified as a hoppiness rather than the simple grain
bitterness. (What a fence-sitter I am :^)

I have read on many an occasion that Guinness adds (or added?) a
portion of "soured" beer to the stout. This could be a factual
relic from the porter days and the three threads, fantasy
created by those who detect the sour-bitter I describe above, or
something they actually do. Their website speaks of a blending
process for consistency of flavor; however, nothing there reads
any different from the blending process you'd expect from, say,
Budweiser (on that note, their website shows the release of the
previously discussed "Guinness Extra Cold" in 1998), ie. no
specific mention of soured beer.

If anyone has a definitive answer, I'm certainly numbered among
the curious. Any Guinness employees out there?

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:08:51 -0500
From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
Subject: IBU Calculations / Stupid Brewer Tricks, Redux

Greetings and hail to the Collective:

Brewed an IPA yesterday using mostly odds and ends I had lying around.  I
was very proud of myself, since when I plugged all the ingredients into
Strangebrew, it said I had a dead-on, true to the guidelines IPA, toward the
high end of the gravity range.  That was until I played with the IBU
calculations. :)  According to Tinseth's calculations (default) I had 48.3
IBU.  Under Garetz, it was 43.6, which is not too different.  But Rager (or
his equation, anyway) says I have *64.1* IBU.  I recall a thread recently
about differences between the various equations, but the Rager calculations
seem *really* out of line with the others.

The real reason I'm posting, though, is this:  While the session went much
better than my last one and that means I probably won't drown in a bucket of
wort (see #3864 if you need all the gory details), I did manage to drop the
lid from my can of Mountmellick extract into the boiling wort.  I tried for
about 15 min, but was unable to get the darn thing out of my Sankey.  I was
wondering if anyone out there who is an expert in wort chemistry and the
effects of bimetal cans thereon (there must be hundreds of you) could tell
me what, if any effect this will have on my beer.  It's now bubbling away
happily and apparently normally.  My water is pretty soft and low mineral as
far as I can tell (my water company has not been very helpful, but I have a
general idea), but I did add 2 tsp Gypsum to the boil.  Any comments would
be appreciated.

Cheers and TIA,

Bob Schaffer-Neitz
Northumberland, PA
375, 102.6 (apparent)



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:15:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Chicago Beer Stores

Can anyone tell me of a beer store in Chicago with a
great selection of beers? I'll be there in 2 weeks and
would prefer a place either downtown or on the north
side, and the closer to the el, the better.  I've been
to Zimmermans, but their beer selection is just OK. 
Private emails are fine. Thanks for any help.

Rick Seibt




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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:55:46 -0500
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: basements and plastic

Steve inquires about plastic and floor slabs:

Newer houses have plastic barrier sheeting under
the floor, and I would just use an epoxy floor
finish to seal it up...I am not
sure when they started putting the plastic
barrier in; mayebe someone can shed some light
on this?

Andrew replies:

There are several debatable and not-so-debatable reasons for including
plastic sheeting in a concrete floor slab assembly. In the case of a
basement slab, locating the plastic sheet under the slab is primarily done 
to prevent the migration of moisture from the underlying soil through the 
slab. This is especially important when floor finishes are adhered directly 
to the concrete with water-based adhesives or when a wood flooring used over 
the concrete. If the air in the basement is highly conditioned, the problem 
is exacerbated, since the pressure differential will force the moisture 
through the concrete.

In the case of a wood floor built on top of concrete (on sleepers or
directly applied), the best approach is to have the under-slab vapor
retarder (plastic sheeting) and to have an additional vapor retarder on top 
of the slab, i.e. liquid-applied sealer or plastic sheeting with the the 
joints sealed. If your wearing surface is not the concrete, as in the case 
of a wood floor on sleepers, then you might consider NOT using an epoxy 
finish and instead use plastic sheeting or another type of concrete sealer, 
since epoxy is expensive and labor intensive.

I hope this is helpful to all of those considering basement breweries. If 
you have any questions related to construction techniques or materials, feel 
free to contact me privately.

Brewing on an un-sealed basement floor slab and thankful for a floor drain,

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virginia





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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:03:41 -0500
From: "Michael R. Brzezowski" <mrb at dedham.k12.me.us>
Subject: Arrested Fermentation for NA

I am wondering if anyone out there has used arrested fermentation to create
a non-alcoholic beer.  This is the method that most of the better NA beers
use, but it seems to simple.

I was thinking of pulling some brew out of my next batch when it hits about
0.5% alcohol.  Then running it through a wort chiller to bring it to near
freezing temps.

Would this kill off the yeast (ale yeast)?  Does any have suggestions of
yeast strains to use?

Also, could I then use a real fine filter to filter out most of the yeast?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

(PS:  I have looked at vacuuming off the alcohol, but I like aromatic
brews.)




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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:07:40 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Whole hops and Low OG

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:14:23 -0500, "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
wrote:

>I have been noticing that for some reason in all my batches, my OG has never
>been as high as what I was anticipating.  and this last batch was quite a
>bit lower than what I had expected I have always used whole hops exclusively
>...<snip>...
>My Hypothesis is perhaps as the whole hops absorb water that they also
>absorb some of the sugar out of the wort.
>Is this correct? If so what is a good way for taking this into account?

Brian, I personally think you need to look elsewhere for your missing
gravity.  I also tend to use whole hops (or pucks).  Yes, the petals
that remain will absorb some wort, but the amount of "loss" is trivial.
 Especially from "only" 2.8 oz of hops.

I will tell you about something I used to do (at the risk of bringing
down cries of "horrendous" from our fellows here in the HBD).  I would
place the (cooled) wort back into the (sanitized) lauter tun, let the
hop petals settle onto the false bottom, drain the wort into the
fermenter through the hop "filter bed", and then sprinkle cold water on
top to rinse the hop pettles.  I usually needed to add some water
anyway (because I typically had a little less than the 5 gallon batch
size) so I figured I might as well add it this way.  As a side benefit
(or maybe it was the MAIN benefit), all of this action provided plenty
of aeration in the wort, and in spite of the increased risk of
contamination it offered, I never had a batch go bad.  [At least not
from THIS reason; maybe I was lucky. <g>]  At any rate, I no longer do
this, and do not recommend it to others.  There is just not enough
stuff in the hops to worry about.  And besides, I now use a
counter-flow chiller, making this all impractical.

>I boiled 7 gallons for 60 minutes and had anticipated a starting gravity of
>at least 1.058 I ended up with 5 gallons at 1.048

I ran up your recipe into ProMash, using ingredients as close to yours
as I could approximate, and got an expected OG of 1.057 for a 5 gallon
batch.  So far, so good, but are you sure about your beginning and
reduction of 15% per hour, I would expect your ending volume to be more
like 5.95 gallons.  If I plug this volume back into the ProMash recipe
calculator, I get an expected OG of 1.048!  Sound suspicious?

This would seem to match with my own experiences and those from
watching others.  The most probable cause for low OG readings [from
wort made with extract] is simple:  the volume of wort you actually
have does not match the volume used in computing the expected OG. 
Small differences in wort volume seem to have an bigger than expected
affect.  For example, take a wort with an expected OG of 1.057 at 5
gallons.  With just one additional quart (giving 5.25 gallons), the OG
drops to 1.054, a difference in "efficiency" of 5%.  (This is obvious
when you realize that adding 1 quart to 5 gallons is a 5% increase in
volume.)  So measure those volumes carefully!

But the most important question is this:  is the beer good?  If so,
send me some!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:20:34 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Guinness "Tang"

Morning,
I'll take just a moment to point out that there is more than on "Guinness" 
out there.  The stuff on draft with nitrogen is plain-old draft 
Guinness.  Nothing special except that it's a great beer brewed to an OG of 
1.038 or so with pale ale malt, flaked barley and roasted barley.

The other is the Guinness Foreign Extra Stout (there may be some other 
variations in different parts of the world).  This is a bottled beer with a 
much higher gravity (not going to guess) that some have said includes some 
soured Guinness.  This may be the origin of the "Guinness Tang."  I wonder 
if they have this kind of Tang on the Space Shuttle?  Remember those awful 
protein sticks you could buy for breakfast...."just like the astronauts eat"?

So, if you've never tasted that "Guinness Tang" in a draft of Guinness, 
it's 'cause it's not there.

Just a thought.
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:30:43 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: cement and Guinness tang

I once was helping a friend design a brewery and the topic
of concrete permeability came up when discussing the
floors.  I'm low on specifics unfortunately, but I do
remember that there was a compound that you could stir into
the concrete which essentially sealed the concrete from
accepting moisture.  The top paint of epoxy sealant is a
good finishing touch as well.  Check in with your local
brewery and see what they did...wish I could remember the
name of the additive.

As for the tang, I don't know who can taste what out there.
It is not the tiny amount of hoppiness (bitter and sour are
pretty easy to discern), but it's a certain "something."
I've brewed dry stouts with and without the addition of the
soured beer and the soured beer is a bit smoother.  I
believe that the concept of soured Guinness came from three
places (1) the Stout book (Michael Lewis), (2) a recipe in
TNCJOHB, and (3) something I read a long time ago about
Guinness blending stout from it's "old" brewery (presumably
had some interesting microflora in the tanks) and the newer
all-SS breweries.

Having brewed them side-by-side, I like the addition.  YMMV.

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:37:21 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: The mash tun delema

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:14:23 -0500, "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
wrote:

>So my question is; at a typical girst/water ratio of 1.5 quarts per pound
>how much mash (in terms of pounds of grain) can fit in a 5 gallon rubbermaid
>cooler?
>And, how tall will the grain bed be in a 10 gallon rubbermaid with a typical
>5 gallon batch of 7 pounds of grain?

Hello, Brian!  It's me again.  I used a Gott cooler for years.  I am
sure that the dimensions for the Rubbermade brand are approximately the
same, and my experience is applicable.

Definitely go with the 10 gallon cooler.  A typical 5 gallon batch of
beer, depending on style, could use anywhere from 7 to 15 pounds of
grain.  With 1.5 quarts of water per pound, you are talking about 10.5
to 22.5 quarts (2.5 to 5.5 gallons) of water before you have added any
grain at all!  I normally use closer to 1 quart per pound, but we are
still talking about a lot of volume.  Grain takes approximately 1 quart
of space per pound  [This is not merely a WAG (wild ass guess), but a
much more significant SWAG (scientific wild ass guess).], so as you can
see, you are going to need room for about 18 to 36 quarts (4.5 to 9
gallons) of mash space.   Add to this the little bit of head room you
need for sparging, and the space taken up by the false bottom, and you
should see that the extra space afforded by the larger cooler is going
to be useful.

The actual height of the grain bed will, of course, depend on the
dimensions of the cooler.  Regardless of those dimensions, the 4.5
gallon grain batch will almost fill a 5 gallon cooler, and will come
about half way up the 10 gallon cooler.





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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:34:43 -0500
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: 2206 - weird yeast behavior

I just had a strange experience with Wyeast's 2206 and am wondering if
anyone else has seen anything similar. I grew up a 300 ml starter (from agar
culture) using YPDM and a magnetic stir plate set at moderate speed for
aeration. Growth was at ambient temps ~68degF. After 24 hours the culture
was plenty dense but had flocculated very heavily - quite large aggregates
with a cheese curd-like appearance. I've never before seen yeast floc this
severely! Being concerned, I checked them out under the microscope but they
looked fine - no evidence of dead cells or bacterial infection, just that
all the individual yeast cells were aggregated together into large masses.
This yeast failed to thrive in a later step-up, so it would appear that,
despite their appearance, the yeast were not viable (unfortunately, I didn't
do any viability testing when I scoped them).

Anyone out there familiar with 2206??

Thanks in advance,

 -Alan





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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:57:51 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Maple wine

David wrote: " I did heat the syrup/water to about 180oF for 20 min to
pasteurize it but didn't boil in order to retain as much flavor and aroma as
possible.  "

Not much need for worry here, maple syrup is concentrated by boiling for
hours in open pans.  If anything, you'd end up with more maple flavor by
boiling it some more.



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:14:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Saflager S23 / S189

Thanks to Dr. Pivo for recently posting his experience
and 'spurment results with Saflager and to Braam
Greyling for posting the URL... I've been interested
in experimenting with Saflager myself and checked out
the website which says, amongst other things:

"S-23:  This yeast develops the best of its fruity and
estery lager notes when fermented at low temperatures
(9-15C) yet producing very good lager and pilsener
beers at higher temperatures (15-21C)."

What the?!...  "the best of its fruity and estery
lager notes"...?  Who wrote that, Klein?!  Despite
what the website says (which was probably written by
some S&M freak - you know, Sales and Marketing), I
still want to try Saflager's yeast.  

However, I noticed that Doc Pivo was specifically
referring to Saflager's other lager yeast, S189.  The
website says that only S23 is available in 11.5g
packets (the typical size for homebrewers).

What's the consensus on S23 vs. S189 with regards to
flavor and performance?  Is S23 truly fruity?  I've
seen S23 carried at a few homebrew stores, but does
anybody carry S189?  Perhaps its not a normally
stocked item, being as its smallest available size is
a 500g pack but could be special-ordered...


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:03:07 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Sparkalloid

Mike Brennan writes:

> After a week it was still fairly cloudy 
> so I did some research and found that sparkaloid is a great 
> clarifier for wine and meads.  So I added some right in the 
> carboy and left the whole
> thing in the cooler.   Two weeks later I figured it was time 
> to put it in
> the keg.  I took the carboy out and examined it.  Yikes!  
> About two inches is crystal clear and the rest looks like a 
> cumulous nimbus cloud with some assorted gobs of goo floating 
> around hither and yon.

Mike, you have discovered the dark side to what is otherwise a miraculous
clearing agent. Sparkolloid is a very effective and relatively benign (in
terms of potential stripping of your wines and meads) agent, but it takes a
very long time to completely settle out. At least a month is called for, and
my experience is, much longer is needed. Even then, you want to have your
carboy where you plan to rack/pump from, because it doesn't take much to get
the lees stirred up. I often refer to it as the gift that keeps on giving,
as I have invariably sucked up a few stray lees which end up as lovely
"wispies" in your bottle. Sparkolloid is sometimes used as a counter fining
to Bentonite since they have opposite charges. As such, the combination
tends to make each others lees a bit more stable.

It works at room temperature, although I don't think chilling will hurt its
action. However, it sounds like you added the powder directly to the carboy.
Most Sparkolloid sold, and the one that works best, is a hot mix type. For a
carboy, you would use 5 grams mixed up in a cup of water, and boiled for 20
minutes. The mixture is then added hot to the wine and stirred in gently.
Care must be taken to prevent carboy cracking by careless pouring. I suck
mine up into a wine thief, then deposit it right into the liquid, and stir.
If you just added dry powder to the mead, that might be contributing to the
cloudiness and lack of settling (although it might still settle out). Again,
a bentonite counterfining might cure the problem. 1-2 grams per gallon mixed
up as a 5% slurry (1/2 - 1 cup of water), let sit overnight, then
vigourously stir while pouring in. Count on being at this for at least
another month.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:05:24 -0500
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: RE 5 gal vs 10 Gallon Gott Cooler

Brian wrote
>I have one delema, I'm not sure wether to use 5 gallon or 10
>gallon coolers.

Brian,
This is the easiest decision you'll ever make in
homebrewing..........Buy the 10 gallon cooler!!!!.
The additional cost is minimal and you'll have much more flexibility to
mash bigger beers or bigger volumes should the need arise.

If you find a recipe you really like, you'll want to capitalize on your
labor.  It takes me about six hours to make a 5 gallon batch.  It only
takes about seven hours to make a 10 gallon batch.  Also, you can split
the 10 gallon batch into two different 5 gal batches with different hop
additions, spices, fruit, malt extract, yeast. etc  Keep your options
open.

Don Lake
Windermere, FL



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:03:43 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: The mash tun delema

In HBD#3880 Brian M Dotlich asked for comments about using 5 and 10 gallon
rubbermaid coolers.

Brian, I think either would be a good choice.

I use a 10 gallon cooler and have done mashes with 6 to 22 lbs of grain.
The one time I did 22 lbs required a thicker mash.  I usually use 1 1/3
quart per pound.  

I use a signal pipe with a screen instead of false bottom, and a ball
valve for the buckhead.

Small mashes work well, but 6 lb was probably the smallest I have done
with it.  I do not see any disadvantage of the larger mash tun.

My most common grain bill has 10-12 lbs.  That would be a tight fit
in a 5 gallon cooler.

The biggest benifit to me is more flexability.  I sometimes do 10 
gallon batches, but only when weather allows me to boil outdoors.
I also have had 15 lbs in some 5 gallon recipes.

One thing to think about -- do you know what ALL of your future brewing
needs will be?

 - Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:18:44 -0500
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: re: NON-Pressure Canning Wort

I have been "canning" wort for a couple of years for the simple
convenience of making yeast starters.

I received instructions on canning with the purchase of the canning
jars.  For non-acidic foods, they recommend using a pressure cooker.
For acidic foods, it recommended simply placing the filled (lightly
tightened) jars in a pot of water and boiling for an hour.

While unfermented wort would be considered "non-acidic" and thereby more
susceptible to spoilage,  I have used the later method for years without
a problem.  And I live in hot, tropical Florida....the home of food
spoilage.

Don Lake
Windermere, FL



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:34:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: The mash tun delema

Brian Dotlich writes:
> So my question is; at a typical girst/water ratio of 1.5 quarts per pound
> how much mash (in terms of pounds of grain) can fit in a 5 gallon rubbermaid
> cooler?

I mash on the stove in a 5 gallon pot. Using 1.25 quarts/lb grain, I can only 
fit about 12 lb of grain in that volume- which means if you're going all-grain 
(no adjunts or extracts), you're limited to somewhere around 1.060 OG for a 5 
gallon batch. (these numbers are from memory, don't quote me). For most styles, 
that's sufficient- and for the occassional high gravity beer, you can always 
use extracts or adjuncts, or just lower your total volume.

Its a pain when you approach the 12lb mark because you need to be careful not 
to spill when its so full, but it works- that's probably why its such a gray 
area over deciding on the 5 or 10 gallon cooler- you can really go either way 
for a 5 gallon batch. 

- --Rama Roberts
San Francisco bay area



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:01:56 -0600
From: "Tom Logan" <tdlogan at ksu.edu>
Subject: Stupid brewer tricks v.200.z

First a confession:  Forgive me brew gods for it has been 8 months since my
last brewing session!

I brewed up a simple pale ale Saturday.  It had been postponed from the
previous weekend (sunny, 55F)  at ##!! in-laws.  So I got to brew in 20F and 20
mph wind.  Part of my punishment from the brew gods I'm sure.  Most
everything else went...ok.  Had to work to keep the old nose from dripping
at the wrong times and of course a boil over midway through.  I went into
the garage to warm up a bit and the wind blew the lid back on the pot
resulting in a boil over...

Now to my question.  I used 2 packs of fresh Nottingham dry yeast with an
old package thrown in for good measure.  It has been really slow getting
started, I assume because I rehydrated it too soon before pitching.  My
siphon was slow from pot to fermentor so the yeast sat 40 minutes or so.
The yeast was good as it foamed up quickly.  But it took nearly 24 hours
before any action/bubbling took place (I have a clear fermentor so I could
look at the action), and 32 before active fermentation was taking place.  It
is cool in the basement, 60-65F, but I have used it before without this long
of a lag.  Any other ideas other than I'm being further punished by the brew
gods???

Any ideas are appreciated.

Tom Logan-brewing on the prairie
Manhattan, KS
South and West-Rennarian




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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:21:04 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  The mash tun delema

Good question Brian.  My first all grain system was two 5 gallon Rubbermaid
coolers,  one for the mash and one for sparge water.  Worked great.  My
typical grain bill was 8 to 13 lbs.  13-14 lbs was the most I could get in
the little bugger.  If I remember right, I mashed in with 1.25 qt/lb then.
You can make bigger beers, but you would have to sacrifice volume.  I now
have a HERMS, which uses a 10 gallon Polarware pot for the mash.  7 or 8 lbs
of grain in it is indeed shallow, and I don't normally make 5 gallon batches
anymore.  I can still make 5 gallon batches, I just do a no-sparge brew. I
add 30% to the grain bill, and this helps with the grain bed, and works
fine.  Lot of people make 5 gallon batches with 10 gallon coolers with no
problems.  With the extra space, you can step up with hot water, and do a
mash out.  You can't do that in a 5 gallon cooler.  Hope this helps.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:49:39 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Oxyclean Incident

Mike Brennan tells of the formation of a hard salt cake at the bottom of 
his fermenter.  I'd try vinegar and water in an effort to encourage 
dissociation.

Any time you use an inorganic cleaning product, especially a straight 
substance like Oxyclean, sodium metasilicate, inorganic phosphates, etc., 
make sure you get it all into solution before leaving it.  Otherwise you 
might get a cake as described by Mike.

Rick Theiner 




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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:26:31 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: pressure canning wort


>How long should the wort be processed?

I used to pressure can wort for 12 mins at 10 lbs.  This is way over what 
most food is done at, but this isn't food that will be harmed by the 
extended heat and pressure.

>Any other tips?

Read through your SWMBO for pressure canning procedures.  Or get a copy of 
the Ball Blue Book (library should have it) or Putting Food By.  These will 
describe the careful procedures necessary for pressure canning without 
making a big mess.

Use wide mouth quart size jars, and if you want to reduce the ugly break 
material in the resulting canned wort, pre-boil the wort and let it cool 
and decant the top clear layer to the jars before canning it.

I have read someone mention that wort has a low-enough pH it's not 
necessary to pressure can it.  A boiling water bath was enough.  IMHO, 
pressure canning was just as much work as BWB for me, so the extra safety 
of pressure was worthwhile.

On a side note, I don't can wort anymore. I found it was easier to make 
starters as needed in 2000 ml kimax/pyrex flasks.



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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:37:42 +1100
From: Matt Gavin-Wear <matt at pulsedesign.com.au>
Subject: Brewpubs in Vancouver

I will going to Vancouver, Canada soon.

Can anyone please recommend any brewpubs/microbreweries there. Also
addresses and a couple of details (ie. if they have a restaurant attached,
what sort of beers etc.) would be greatly appreciated.

Quality brewpubs/micros are few and far between here in Australia so I'm
looking forward to sampling the best that Canada has to offer.

Private emails welcome.

Cheers,

Matt Gavin-Wear
Sydney, Australia
Pulse Design
Fifth Floor  48 Chippen St
Chippendale  NSW Australia 2008
T: (02) 9698 3700
F: (02) 9698 3177
E: matt at pulsedesign.com.au


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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:25:16 -0500
From: "Chris Strickland" <chris at new-horizon.net>
Subject: Beligum Ale Yeast

I just used a Beligum Ale yeast, when I popped the yeast packet inside the
man package, the package didn't get very big like it does when I use the
American Ale yeast.  I put it in the starter in the morning, since I
normally pop it the night before.  I didn't appear to be fermenting in my
started.

I put the beer in the carboy last night, and my beer is fermenting tonight,
but it's not a "boiling" ferment like I'm use to with the American Ale
yeast.

Is this normal for the Beligum Ale yeast?



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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:49:21 -0600
From: "cwaters" <cwaters at cox.net>
Subject: Servomyces

Someone posted a while ago about difficulty diluting Servomyces for
home-brewery use. The 10 gr. pack is for "10 US Barrels" batches. It's a
fine powder and about the grain size of 'Malto Dextrine', which I had lying
around from trying to improve an all-extract batch 10+ years ago. 10 US
Bl.'s = 320 gallons = 32 - ten gallon batches, so I diluted it with  32 -
'quarter teaspoons' of the 'Malto Dextrine (2 TBS, + 2 TSP), the smallest
dry VOLUME I can conveniently measure, and put it in a couple of White Labs
yeast tubes I had available. The two powers seem to easily blend evenly, the
quarter teaspoon measuring spoon fits into the White Labs tube, and the
tubes should keep the slightly hygroscopic 'Malto Dextrine from absorbing
moisture. I haven't used the Servomyces yet. I'll comment later. Hope this
helps someone.
    Chet Waters - Omaha, Ne.

'People who claim to know everything are particularly
irritating to those of us who really do'
Ben Rogge (1967)



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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:21:18 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Weizen Yeast from Bottle?

Ok, this one is along shot.  I'm going to do my first Weizen with my new 
gas fired RIMS in about two weeks and want to try different 
yeasts.  There's been alot of discussion recently on Weizen yeasts.  I do 
10 gallon batches with my new system. In the last 2 weeks I've done an 
oatmeal stout, a scotch ale and a kolsch, all of which are styles for my 
brewclub monthly meetings.  I am now going to do a beer for ME and I was 
thinking of doing a wheat beer and pitching White Labs Hefeweizen IV on one 
five gallon fermenter and the other I want to try and step up yeast from a 
bottle.

So here's the question:

Does anyone have any idea which commercially available hefeweizens use 
Speise or young beer in bottling rather than using a bottom fermenting 
yeast?  Do ANY of them not use bottom fermenting yeasts for bottle 
conditioning?  Inquiring brew-minds want to know!!!

I made a starter this evening from a bottle of Schneider Weisse, but having 
read a section from Warner's "German Wheat Beer" a few hours later I 
realized that the yeast is probably NOT their weizen yeast, it was probably 
centrifuged out and a lager yeast was probably used for bottle 
conditioning.  This prompted me to challenge the HBD folks to see if anyone 
knew what beers don't use bottom fermenting yeast in bottle conditioning.

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix



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