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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  stuck fermentation ("David P. McElroy")
  Discussing drugs - let's not (dw)
  Homebrew Digest #394 (April 09, 1990) (Donald P Perley)
  Home Drugs (Donald P Perley)
  the smell of wisteria and dry yeast for wheat beer (Marty Albini)
  Blow-off tubes (techentin)
  Re: sulphide odor (HBD #390) (Glenn Colon-Bonet)
  O2 in wort (mage!lou)
  spent grains in the garden (florianb)
  Sauerstoff und Brau (florianb)
  dissolved gases (Pete Soper)
  Barley Wines (Seth Adam Eliot)


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Date: 9-APR-1990 08:53:48.27
From: "David P. McElroy" <DMCELROY at EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU>
Subject: stuck fermentation

I've been a luckly beginner with my first 10 batches of homebrew
using extract kits.   I am on my 11th and decided to "advance" by
using a recipe in ZYMURGY in Colonel John's column "The Best From Kits."
For the first time I used 2 cups of crystal barley, irish moss, no
corn sugar, pre-boiled all water, and rehydrated the yeast before
adding it to the cooled wort.   And for the first time :-(  the
fermentation was very slow.  After 10 days the specific gravity dropped
to 1.020 and then nothing!

The latest "Dear Professor" column in ZYMURGY has a letter titled
"Stuck Amock a Brew" in which the writer mentions using amylase enzyme
powder.  Is this something I should consider?  Are there other alternatives?
Is this batch destine for the garden compost?

				Dave McElroy
				East Hampton, CT.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
David P. McElroy 	  
Computing Center          Bitnet:   DMCELROY at WESLEYAN
Wesleyan University       Internet: dmcelroy at eagle.wesleyan.edu
Middletown,CT 06457       Telephone: 203-347-9411 ext 3172
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: 9 Apr 90 09:26:21 EDT (Monday)
From: dw <Wegeng.Henr at Xerox.COM>
Subject: Discussing drugs - let's not

Please, let's NOT get into a discussion about the legalization of drugs.
There are plenty of other venues where that topic can be discussed.  It's
been discussed, for example, on Usenet for a long time without resolving
anything.

/Don

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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 11:16:30 EDT
From: perley at glacier.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #394 (April 09, 1990)

>But if this is the case, then when you boil the wort, wouldn't that drive
>the O2 out of the water, and leave the primary fermentation short of
>oxygen?

Yes.  There are at least 2 solutions: 

1) siphon the wort after it has cooled, and let it splash (don't submerge the 
   destination end of the tube)

2) Agitate the wort when you pitch with a big spoon or something.

 -don perley

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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 11:19:17 EDT
From: perley at glacier.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Home Drugs


>IMHO, the test was incomplete - it did not show a cup of coffee,
>cigarettes, wine, tea, cola sodas, and other drugs.  Maybe our
>children should be taught to recognise ALL drugs.

Don't forget the venerable sugar bowl if you are listing mood altering
substances with the potential for abuse.

 -don perley

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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 8:25:33 PDT
From: Marty Albini <martya at hpsdl39.sdd.hp.com>
Subject: the smell of wisteria and dry yeast for wheat beer

	As I roved out this mornin' fair, past the wisteria vine
at the gate, a thought which occurs to me every year about this
time occurred to me: "I wish there was something that tasted like
wisteria smells."

	Heck, I'd settle for making some beer that smelled like
wisteria. Has anybody tried this? Does anybody know the
toxicity/allergenic properties of wisteria? If the stuff won't
kill me, I'm gonna give it a try.

	One further note: I recently stumbled across a can of
Ireks wheat extract, reduced in price because the can had
swelled. Not being able to resist a bargain, I now plan to make
my first wheat beer. What kind of yeast should I use?

	I know various liquid wheat beer yeasts are available,
but for a variety of reasons (you have to start 'em way in
advance, and my schedule is too unpredictable, for one) dry
yeast would be a lot more convenient. The can says the
ingredients are "wheat and water," so a yeast that's spent its
whole career munching malt might gag on it. My goal would be
something like Schell, but higher gravity.

	About the swelled can: everybody calm down. Botulism
(I'm told) can't grow at the pH of extract. The shop that sold
it to me says they make all their brew from cans that swell on
their shelf, and they haven't died yet.

	Any tips on the above will be appreciated. At very least,
I'll drink a toast to you.
- --
________________________________________________Marty Albini___________
"To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
phone    : (619) 592-4177
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya
Internet : martya%hp-sdd at hp-sde.sde.hp.com (or  at nosc.mil,  at ucsd.edu)
CSNET    : martya%hp-sdd at hplabs.csnet
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA

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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 10:43:18 CDT
From: techentin at Mayo.edu
Subject: Blow-off tubes

Recent postings on violent blow-offs have prompted me to comment on the 
blow off tube that my brewing partner bought from our local supply shop.

The "Pine Island Cheese Mart" of Pine Island, MN, sells 5 gallon carboys 
for about $15 and blow off tubes for $5.  The tube is four feet long and 
has and outside diameter of about 2 inches.  It fits _very_ snugly into 
the neck of the carboy.  The inside diameter is about 1.5 inches. 

I cannot imagine brewing anything that could clog this blowoff tube.  
Well, OK.  I have a pretty vivid imagination, but I wouldn't want to 
drink anything that clogged this tube.

I haven't seen anything like this in the mail order catalogs that I have 
aquired.  Does anybody else use a blowoff tube this size?  Would 
something like this help prevent (recently chronicled) wort eruptions?

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Techentin                              Internet: techentin at Mayo.edu
Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN, 55905 USA             (507) 284-2702
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 10:08:25 mdt
From: Glenn Colon-Bonet <gcb at hpfigcb>
Subject: Re: sulphide odor (HBD #390)
Full-Name: Glenn Colon-Bonet

- --------

In HBD #390, Stuart Crawford writes:

> I just finished making my tenth batch of beer and, for the first time, I detect
> a strong rotten egg (hydrogen sulphide?) odor coming through the airlock on my
> primary.  Papazian suggests that this phenomenon is a characteristic of some
> strains of yeast and that, if it occurs, you should "change your yeast".  I'm
> using Wyeast "American Ale" yeast for the first time... has anyone had similar
> experiences with this yeast?
...

> Bottom line: is this batch a loss?

> 				Stuart

Stuart,
    I haven't had much experience with that yeast strain, but I've noticed
    a similar sulphurous odor from German Ale yeast #1007, Bavarian lager #2206
    and Munich lager #2308 strains.  According to the yeast issue of Zymurgy, 
    the two lager strains tend to produce sulphides when used at the wrong 
    temperature.  I imagine that the ale strains would also produce odors if 
    used at the wrong temperature.  The #2308 strain I understand is 
    particularly fussy, and #2206 much less so.  I've used #2206 and #1007
    quite often, and, although they produce the odor during the initial 
    fermentation, it quickly subsides and is not noticeable in the finished 
    beer.  The American Ale yeast (also known as Chico Ale, #1056), I believe,
    is supposed to be used at lower temperatures than typical.  I don't know 
    what temperature your fermentation took place, but that may be the reason 
    for the sulphurous odor.  I've been fermenting my ales and primary lager 
    fermentations at 55-60 F, and secondary lagering at 35-40 F.  At any rate, 
    I don't think that changing the yeast is necessarily the right answer,
    probably changing the fermentation temperature (if possible) would be 
    better.  Although I haven't used American Ale yeast, I've heard that it 
    has very nice characteristics, and I certainly enjoy Sierra Nevada's beers,
    which are made with that strain.

    If anyone has specific information about the correct fermentation 
    temperatures for these yeast strains (or others), I'd be
    interested in the numbers.

    Bottom line, the batch is not a loss.  You may want to let the beer stay
    in the fermenter a while longer than usual to allow the odors to be driven
    off.  As Russ Pencin said (HBD #392), you can always taste it and see!

				Good Luck!
				-Glenn

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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 11:47:22 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: O2 in wort

In digest #394 John Mellby writes:

>Recently I was rereading Papazian's section in the Brewing Mead book
>and he said that the initial 12-14 hours of fermentation require lots
>of oxygen.  He said this was typically ok, since there was lots of
>oxygen available in solution in cold tap water.

The initial 12-14 hours is not really "fermentation".  It is a period of yeast
growth and reproduction but does not produce ethanol and CO2.  Fermentation
begins after the yeast density reaches a certain level (~5 million cells/cc if
I recall correctly) at which point reproduction slows dramatically and
production of ethanol and CO2 increases dramatically.  Having lots of oxygen
for this phase results in yeast with thicker cell walls and thus more alocohol
tolerance later in fermentation.  You can still get fermentation even without a
lot of oxygen in the early phase but you may have problems with high SG worts
not fermenting completely because the alcohol kills your yeast.  Consult the
all-yeast issue of "Zymurgy" for more details.

>But if this is the case, then when you boil the wort, wouldn't that drive
>the O2 out of the water, and leave the primary fermentation short of
>oxygen?  ...

Yes, boiling will drive out oxygen, chlorine and other dissolved gases.

>Where does the O2 come from for the fermentation, if so much oxygen
>is needed?

The O2 is replaced quite easily when the wort/fill water is poured into the
fermenter.  Splashing the liquid when pouring will cause it to take in
dissolved O2 from the air and is strongly recommended.

Louis Clark

reply to: mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu


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Date: 09 Apr 90 12:31:51 PDT (Mon)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: spent grains in the garden

In #393, Cher Feinstein answers Chris Shenton's inquiry about using spent
grains in the garden:

>I don't see why not; and yes, you would have to compost first.  I think that
>if you didn't, you might have problems once the grains started to decay.

I dump the spent grains and spent hop flowers directly into the garden all 
winter.  In the spring, I till everything under.  The only problem it seems
to create is that our Labrador (who loves homebrew) keeps digging in the
soil to find the evidently "buried beer."

Florian

"The first glass of homebrew recapitulates philanthropy."
"The first glass of wine recapitulates philandering."

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Date: 09 Apr 90 13:06:30 PDT (Mon)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: Sauerstoff und Brau

In #394, John Mellby inquires:

>Recently I was rereading Papazian's section in the Brewing Mead book
>and he said that the initial 12-14 hours of fermentation require lots
>of oxygen.  He said this was typically ok, since there was lots of
>oxygen available in solution in cold tap water.
>
>But if this is the case, then when you boil the wort, wouldn't that drive
>the O2 out of the water, and leave the primary fermentation short of
>oxygen?  In my case, since I don't have a wort chiller, I usually

Yea, boiling reduces the dissolved oxygen.  I think the proper sequence is:

1	Boil
2	Chill
3	Areate
4	Pitch

Which is what I try to do.  But I've often wondered how much oxygen is
really needed.  In my technique, I pour the chilled wort from a height
of 4 feet.

Florian


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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 90 17:55:23 EDT
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: dissolved gases

>From: jmellby at ngstl1.csc.ti.com (John Mellby)
>Subject: Oxygen in solution necessary for Fermentation?

>Recently I was rereading Papazian's section in the Brewing Mead book
>and he said that the initial 12-14 hours of fermentation require lots
>of oxygen.  He said this was typically ok, since there was lots of
>oxygen available in solution in cold tap water.

  It's the usage of "require" that we've got to explore.

>But if this is the case, then when you boil the wort, wouldn't that drive
>the O2 out of the water, and leave the primary fermentation short of
>oxygen?  In my case, since I don't have a wort chiller, I usually

  Yes, absolutely. This makes it vital to take extra steps to get air into
the wort prior to pitching.

>boil 2-3 gallons of water and put it in the refridgerator to cool ahead of
>time (this usually reduces the wort temperature to where I can add the
>yeast).  However, would this not reduce the supply of oxygen as well?

  Yes.

>Is there really that much O2 in solution, or is the fermentation stealing
>O from the H2O itself?  O.K. so I'm not a chemist.  I'm still puzzled?

  No, the only source is going to be what is dissolved in the wort.

>Where does the O2 come from for the fermentation, if so much oxygen
>is needed?

  In this circumstance, although it is needed, it probably isn't present.
The yeast "require" oxygen during respiration the same way people require 
good nutrition while growing up.  Yeast can get along without oxygen in 
the sense that in many cases the fermentation will take place, it will 
finish OK and drinkable beer will be made. However there are hazards 
and sometimes the hazards can catch up with us.
  Without adequate oxygen yeast respiration takes place with some alternative 
biochemical mechanisms (boring technical terms omitted). These alternatives 
are tradeoffs and carry penalties. For instance, without adequate oxygen 
the yeast cannot reproduce beyond a small number of generations. This means 
that in some situations the cell count may be too low to completely ferment 
the beer in a reasonable time. A low cell count creates an infection risk too.
The yeast that are "born" without proper oxygen during respiration have poor
alcohol tolerance and low cell energy reserves.  This means they will tend 
to conk out before the job is done, especially when trying to make strong beer.
The parent cells are also weakened by having to donate scarce cell materials
to daughter cells.
  Keep in mind that all the oxygen splashed or otherwise gotten into the
wort prior to pitching will be used up by the yeast. In fact it is the 
depletion of available oxygen, among other things, that triggers the 
transition to the anerobic phase.  It is only after the anerobic phase of 
fermentation has started that the presence of oxygen becomes harmful. 
(But don't aerate wort while it is hot, since that does cause other problems). 

  For those of you getting one of the new Foxx counterpressure bottle fillers: 
Pressure check everything, especially the valves, before you try to use it. 
I can state with authority that although three leaky joints can be fixed with
hasty action and a bit of teflon tape, a defective, leaking valve will make you 
wish you had a different hobby.

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Date: Mon,  9 Apr 90 20:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Seth Adam Eliot <se08+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Barley Wines


It appears that my sources were in error...

but alas the state of PA is probably the cuprit in keeping me from
these brews... but I'll check on it.

 -Seth
 (stuck in commonwealth of Puritannia)

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #395, 04/10/90
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