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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  De Koninck (TOLLEY Matthew)
  Re: Spoiled Results - Argh! (Petr Otahal)
  West Coast Stout / American Stout in Competition ("Beechum, Drew")
  Re: Wort Aeration Sterilization Question (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  RE:Mashing Questions for a Barley Wine (Don Lake)
  DeKoninck Recipe ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Posting to HBD from AOL... (Pat Babcock)
  West Coast Stout ("Brian Schar")
  Post-Forced Carbonation Blues (Karen & Troy Hager)
  Re: West Coast Porter and Stout (Bill Wible)
  Just in time for the 4th of July (Althelion)
  MB RIMS Chamber ("Drew Avis")
  gushing beer = contamination? (Rama Roberts)
  Oat Malt Stout ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  Response to Kegging and Oxidation ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  RE: newbie questions (Bill Tobler)


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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:53:07 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: De Koninck

>If anyone is familiar with this beer or has attempted to clone
>it, I would appreciate some suggestions for grain bill, SG/FG, hops,
>yeast, etc.

We discussed this very beer recently on OzCBD.  Re the yeast, one of the
locals thought it might be Wyeast 3787 which has spicy cinnamon notes.
Adopted local Jeff Renner replied:

"According to http://smurman.best.vwh.net/zymurgy/wyeast.html, 3787 is 
Westmalle yeast.  I don't think de Koninck is available from 
WhiteLabs or Wyeast."  

Local Warren White wrote:

"It's a wonder that some enterprising Craftbrewer hasn't thought of going
for
a de Koninck at cafe Pelgrim in Antwerp by all accounts they'll give you a
shot-glass of the yeast as a prelude to your de Koninck."

Jeff Renner later wrote:

"If anyone simply has to have it...Dan McConnell of Yeast 
Culture Kit Co. http://www.yeastculturekit.com/ has it...
De Koninck yeast - A72.  It was obtained just as Warren 
surmised."

Re malt/hops/fermentation, Warren White wrote:

"This is a brief description from Michael Jackson's "Great Beers of Belgium"
(Great read too :-)

De Koninck beer is made only from malt, with no adjunct of maize or other
brewing sugars. The malts are a blend of Vienna and Pilsner types. The hop
accent is Saaz (you were right). Shoot from around 25 IBUs. The gravity is
11.8 Plato (1.047). The hops are added three times.

It spends seven to eight days in fermentation up to 25c, and has about two
weeks cold conditioning."

So, get yourself an all-malt Belgian Pale ale recipe (or formulate your own
with Pilsner and Vienna), chuck in some A72 and you should be in the oval
(sorry - ballpark) somewhere.

Cheers!
 ...Matt...



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:00:24 +1000
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Spoiled Results - Argh!

Greg Smith wrote:
>I store my carboys in a bleach
>water solution, so they're always ready to rinse and use.  I let my conical
>sit overnight in an Iodophor solution for the most recent batch, to make it
>"extra" clean.  I take off the conical's valves and clean and boil them

>twice - after every batch leaves the conical, and again the day of brewing
>the next batch.  And I use a brush to clean the valve holes on the conical.

Hi Greg,

What do you use to "clean" the conical fermenter with?

There is a difference between cleaning and santizing.  Iodophor is good at
sanitizing but no good at cleaning, and there is no point sanitizing a
vessel if it is not clean first.

Bleach on stainless is not a good idea as it will eventually pit, 3%
caustic (NaOH) solution is the best on stainless.  If used warm/hot it
doesn't require a long soak but if used cold it is best to leave overnight.
 It requires a thorough rinse, as well as the use of safety glasses and
rubber gloves (it is very corrosive to the eye).

I clean my kegs with it about once every six months with hot 3% caustic,
but fermenters generally get more cruddy than kegs.

Cheers
Petr Otahal
Tas. Aust.



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:56:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Beechum, Drew" <Drew.Beechum at disney.com>
Subject: West Coast Stout / American Stout in Competition


H.. (hmm.. no first name)

Over here in Maltose Falcons territory, we've had our own style
guidelines for as long as I've been around. Our guidelines (for more
than 5 years now) have carried Class 16.4 - American Style Stout,
which is the name we used for West Coast Style. So for 2 competitions
per year we have an American Style Stout class.

We tend to modify our styles every year. This year we modified our
definitions for Saison. We're planning to modify our American and
English IPA classes to include a new Double IPA style and a new Baltic
Porter style.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/comps/2002_Falcons_Style_Guidelines.pdf

- -- Drew

H. Dowda writes :
 > ------------------------------
 > 
 > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT)
 > From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
 > Subject: West Coast Stout
 > 
 > Recently, at least one competition (B.U.Z.Z. Boneyard
 > Brewoff)has used this new (non-BJCP?) category to
 > provide a place for a considerable amount of the stout
 > being brewed (it seems) by HB today.
 > 
 > Has anyone else adopted it?  If you had an opportunity
 > to enter in this category would you be interested?
 > 
 >  http://brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu/buzz/Style16X.txt.



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:04:36 -0400
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re: Wort Aeration Sterilization Question

Steven P. Bellner writes:
>I would like to ask the collective a question about wort aeration.  
>I have a powerful aquarium pump and a homemade carbon odor 
>filter, and was going to use this device to aerate my wort during 
>tomorrow's brew....  I have gone from Mr. Beer (awful) to extract with 
>grains, added a wort chiller, added Cornelius kegging, and am now 
>concentrating on improving my pitching technique..... 

Steven,
You are on the right track to improving your beer by improving your
pitching technique.  Using yeast starters and oxygen to aerate your
wort are the two most important improvements anyone can make to
their homebrewing process to make their beer better.   Our beer
improved 100% when we started using oxygen to aerate our wort 
and the wort for our yeast starters.   I would suggest forgetting 
about the air pump and get an air stone instead.  You will not be 
disappointed, if you invest in an air stone and start using oxygen to 
aerate your wort.  You can get small oxygen tanks for less than $10 
each at your local hardware store or Home Depot.  They will last for 
5-10 batches of 5 gallons each.  I turn on the tank for about 45 seconds 
to aerate a 5 gallon batch.  I think I read somewhere that it would take 
more than an hour with an air pump to get the same amount of  oxygen 
into your wort.  Using happy yeast and giving them an environment 
that they will be happy in is the best way to improve your beer.

Just my $0.02.  Cheers!!!

Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI
(2.8,103.6 Rennerian)



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:15:09 -0400
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: RE:Mashing Questions for a Barley Wine

I received the following reply from Wendell Ose.  Since he was having
problem posting to HBD, I said I would re-post it for him.

>I am planning to brew my first barley wine using the all-grain method
>using a converted sanke keg as a mash tun.  My questions are:
> 1) Approximately how many pounds of grain can I comfortably mash in a
>converted sanke keg?
>2) What kind of effeciency should I expect (I normally get 70-75%)?
>3) Should I not sparge for the first runnings until it runs dry and
then
>add water for a second runnings beer?
>4) What else should I be asking?

Don,
I have trouble sending directly to HBD since I am on AOL I think.  If
you think my info is worthy of HBD, please post.

I can help with your first question and give credit to John Palmer for
bringing it to my attention in an old Brewing Techniques article where I
used to read your fine writing I believe.

John doesn't refer to it as such but I call it the "42 Ounce Rule."  One
lb of malt and one quart of water will displace 42 ounces of volume.  If
you dilute your mash more than one qt per lb, just add the amount in
excess of 1 qt to 42 to figure the displacement.   Example, a 15.5
gallon mash tun/keg will hold 47.24 lbs of malt if the mash is diluted
1:1, malt to water.  It will only hold 34.21lbs of malt if diluted to
1:1.5 , malt to water.  Math: 15.5 gallons equal 1984 ounces.  42 goes
into 1984 47.24 times.  When you mash in with 1.5 qts per lb you add 16
oz to 42, equals 58 and that goes into 1984 34.21 times.

Wendell Ose, Reston, Va.

 -



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:15:30 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: DeKoninck Recipe

Shawn asks about a DeKoninck recipe.  After many years of experimentation, I
finally settled on a recipe that I am happy with, and these are the
essential features:

*	60/40 blend of pilsner and vienna malts, target gravity 1.048
*	1 - 2 oz chocolate for color, 1/2 lb of Biscuit (optional)
*	Saaz or Spalt for hops, three additions to around 30 IBU
*	Wyeast 1388 or White Labs 550
*	Primary fermentation at 70 F, secondary at 40 F

I think this beer is best served on draft.  Make sure you get some authentic
DeKoninck glasses to serve it in - I don't know if it's the glass or the
beer, but every time I make this it leaves beautiful patterns of "belgian
lace" down the sides of my glass.  Prost,

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:45:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Posting to HBD from AOL...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

During what appears to be the e-mail equivalent of a seance,
Wendell says through Don:

> I have trouble sending directly to HBD since I am on AOL I
> think.  If you think my info is worthy of HBD, please post.


AOL is addressed in the FAQ on the hbd homepage
(http://hbd.org), as are several other services and clients
which need to be set in non-default ways to post to the HBD.
For AOL users, unfortunately, AOL has determined what is best
for you, and will not allow you to deviate from their vision of
what YOU need. You cannot post to the HBD from your AOL mailbox
as they do not provide you with the means to turn all the fancy
crap off. To post to the HBD, go to Excite, Hotmail or Yahoo
(presented in alphabetical order. We recommend no one over any
of the others) and sign up for a free email account. Then, check
the FAQ at http://hbd.org to learn how to use that free mail
account to post to the HBD...


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:09:22 -0700
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com>
Subject: West Coast Stout

Virtually all of my stouts would fall in this category.  I have a hard time
at competitions with them because they do not fall in either of the
traditional stout categories.  I have been thinking about entering them in
the experimental category, as they don't fit anywhere else.

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:22:28 -0700
From: Karen & Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Post-Forced Carbonation Blues

Fellow Brewers,

Thanks for the outpouring of help for my post-forced carbonation blues.

(Bill Frazier writes) Have you given the beer some time to
> settle down after you carbonate it.  The presence of CO2 in the beer will
> change it's flavor.  I find that even kegged beer benefits from some
> resting time after you add CO2.

Funny that you mentioned it Bill ... the last batch I did was an dort export
and a week ago I tapped it. It had been on 15 psi for about 5 days. I also
filled about 25 bottles with my counter pressure filler about a week ago
too. When I tapped the beer I pulled out a bottle to compare the keg with
the bottled and that is when they both had that familiar harsh bitter stale
flavor that I spoke of in my post.

Last night I was working in the yard and I pulled out one of the bottles and
I was very surprised - It had changed quite a bit - and for the better. Many
of those harsh flavors were not there and the stale oxidized flavors were
very diminished as well. It had a nice malty aroma and, although it was not
excellent, it was very drinkable. It did seem like there was an excess of
harsh bitterness at the end though - too much for the low hopping I used on
this - (19.5 IBUs from ProMash) and the soft water (80% RO + 20%  soft tap
water and noble hops (German Hallertauer Milelfruh and Hersbrucker).

So I was pleasantly surprised. I will not have to throw this down the drain.
It does seem like the beer needs some "settling down" time after carbonation
as you  say.

I then sampled the keg and found the same changes were in the keg too. The
only difference that I found was the beer from the keg did seem to have a
slightly harsh CO2 aroma the diminished as the beer warmed and some of the
gas was expelled.

I am still convinced that there is some problem with my tank and regulator
though. I have had too many beers suffer the "carbonation downturn". I will
borrow a friends tank and regulator to test this out. It does seem that the
beer benefits greatly from a couple weeks resting time after force
carbonation.

Thanks, Troy



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:24:52 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: West Coast Porter and Stout


I'm a recognized beer judge in the Phila
area.

These categories, "West Coast Porter" and
"West Coast Stout"  have been suggested
many times, both here and on judgenet.

If enough people are brewing them, and it
will mean more entries in our competitions,
then I'm for it.

My concerns are that:

1) We already have a number of categories now
that draw about 3 entries each, and many categories
where judge knowledge is lacking.  Unless you've
been to Germany, you've never had a real Altbier
and are not qualified to judge one, no matter what
you think.  And how many people have brewed a
Bier De Garde lately?  I wonder how many of those
were entered nationally last year.

I'd hate to see another 3 beer category added,
just to end up getting combined with other
categories.  There's alot of griping already
about combined categories, and I'm on record
as saying I don't think they're fair.  Certain
styles have inherent advantages over other
styles, and will always win out in combined
categories.

2) If we add these categories, how many more do
people want?  Can we add these 2 without adding
categories for 'hard lemonade', or alcopops, which
seem to be all the rage these days?  How about
stuff like Zima, which alot of folks have posted
asking for the recipe for?  People are brewing
alof of stuff out there that we don't have
categories for.

How about Sake?  It is one of the world's oldest
brewed grain beverages, and the BJCP has no category
for that.  Yet mead and cider, which are brewed from
fruit juice and honey, not grain - we have categories
for those.

How about we get our existing categories in order
before we go adding new stuff?

I don't necessarily think the BJCP needs to be
jumping on every bandwagon that comes along.

Bill



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:49:23 EDT
From: Althelion at aol.com
Subject: Just in time for the 4th of July

A friend sent me this link to American Heritage Magazine's July 2002 edition:
http://www.americanheritage.com/AMHER/2002/03/beer.shtml

This is a great history of beer in America from colonial days to the present. 
Read this and go on and on about it to your spouse or significant other until 
they either fall asleep or leave the room. 

We are truly carrying on a wonderful American tradition. Homebrewing is, in 
fact, MORE AMERICAN than apple pie.

Happy 4th of July. God Bless America.

Al Pearlstein
Commerce Township, Michigan



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:33:27 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: MB RIMS Chamber

RIMS-ers:
Is anyone out there using the RIMS chamber from Moving Brews?  I have a
buddy who is building a RIMS system, and has been waiting for MB to come
back on line.  Having run out of patience, he's looking to build a chamber
himself.  Can anyone tell me what the chamber pipe diameter is?

Thanks!
Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca






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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
Subject: gushing beer = contamination?

A porter I bottled a bit more than 3 weeks ago has begun to gush
out foam when I uncap them now, it seemed to be getting more and more
violent with time- not sure if its topped out yet.

It was a 5 gallon all grain batch, well aerated with a stone on a filtered
pump, fermented around 70F.  I used a yeast new to me (2 packs Windsor)
and amylase enzyme during what appeared to be a stuck fermentation 2 days
in. Its possible its contaminated- but there are no obvious off flavors I
can detect in such a rich beer besides a slight sourness, and no neck
rings (I have one clear bottle as a control). OG was 1.062, gravity at
bottling 12 days later was 1.012 and *appeared* to have finished.  The
wort did 'decent' during a stability test, not great, not horrible.

Questions: 
1. should I be concerned with exploding bottles, if so, what's the easiest
remedy if any? Release a bit of gas then immediately recap?

2. What's the most likely culprit? The enzyme addition causing over
priming by allowing the beer to continue to ferment, contamination of
some sort, something else? 

Rama Roberts
confused in California



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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:29:13 -0400
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at attbi.com>
Subject: Oat Malt Stout

I have made oat malt stout before - 2lbs in a 5 gallon batch.  I mashed
at 152 and got that wonderful silky luscious mouth feel (don't know how
else to describe it), so high temperatures (165) may not be required.  I
did get knocked down in competition for lack of head retention, but
don't care - the mouthfeel makes up for it.

I would like to make it again, but do not have a souce for small
quantities.  I bought a sackfull (25 kg) the first time, but it kept for
less then a year.  Once the oat malt was old, it no longer gave the
wonderful mouthfeel.  Does anyone have sources for oat malt?

Thanks,
Reif Hammond
Durham, NH




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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:32:00 -0000
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: Response to Kegging and Oxidation


There has been much angst in the digest about kegging as of late.  These
posts that describe costly, time-consuming safety measures are very
thought-provoking but suggest a need to visit an important philosophy/theory
about the source of oxidation in beer.  

One camp follows the logic of these posts,  that oxygen is a remorseless
killer, looking to strike whenever you let your guard down.  You will spend
hours and hours following exacting technique and then you will make that one
fatal mistake,  a leak in your siphon hose, a splash in your keg,
over-aerating your wort. an exposed mash surface during lautering; then
oxidation with strike your beer down before it ever had a chance to live.

Others follow a more qualitative approach, where minimizing risk of
oxygenation at the most crucial moments will yield a stable product no
matter how poorly you handle it at the later stages.  I personally have
found this to be the case. I have never had oxidation in my kegged beer or
my bottled beer (even pressure filled ones) and I am far from paranoid about
keeping it away from oxygen during the latter stages. I siphon wide open, I
splash my beer into the keg and I never fill the whole thing with CO2 before
filling it.  The one precaution I do take is purging it with CO2 before I
pressurize it.  

The most salient point that I can make is that oxidation is a systemic
problem rather than peripheral problem.  What I mean by this is that at
certain points in the brewing process, notably while the wort is hot, the
generation of free radical oxidizers will dramatically reduce the stability
of your beer.  Your beer becomes an "At Risk" beer just waiting for the
right conditions to let loose the terror of oxidation,  like a cancer,  free
radicals oxidize other highly reactive compounds making them free radicals,
and these then, in the absence of any powerful reducing agents, will
continue the reaction out of control until your beer tastes like moldy
cardboard.  In some cases,  the beer is ruined before the wort is ever
boiled.

Wort produced under optimal conditions will, on the other hand,  have a
wealth of powerful reducing agents in the healthy melanoidins and organic
acids in the hops.  This is what is referred to as "stable beer" regarding
oxidation.  Once you've added the yeast to it,  You simply cannot add enough
oxygen under normal homebrewing conditions to overcome the anti-oxidant
capacity of your beer.  

If you create a marginally stable beer from the beginning,  oxidation at
later stages might be enough to push this reaction in favor of oxidation.
Kegs are porous so they allow exchange with the air,  so even the
best-handled unstable beer will eventually react with oxygen, while those
put in bottles will remain fresh.  In my experience, STABLE beer that has
excessive exposure to oxygen will most likely result in musty, winey
flavors, from the oxidation of esters and residual sugars, rather than the
cardboard flavors associated with free radical oxidation of melanoidins.    

So how do you create a stable wort from the beginning?  The answer is alive
in these threads already.  Start with a quiet mash,  don't stir the heck out
of it! Not only will you ruin your filter bed but you'll introduce free
radicals into your wort.  Don't splash the wort - EVER - when its hot.  This
doesn't take much effort, just minimize the amount of transferring you do.
Long hot boils (90 minutes) will increase melanoidins, powerful
antioxidants, and provide many other benefits to your beer that I won't go
into.  Make sure your wort is below 75 degrees when you rack to your primary
and cool it even more if you can before you aerate it.  If you take extreme
care with your wort at these crucial stages,  you can relax with it later on
and enjoy many months of fresh, kegged beer.  

Your comments, objections, sympathies, are welcome.  

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, Washington

"Chance favors the prepared mind"
 -Alexander Fleming


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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:40:59 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: newbie questions

Welcome to the HBD Peter.  We're always looking for new blood, umm, I mean
readers.  I live in Texas, so I can't help you with homebrew clubs and local
homebrew shops in Canada.  I've never bought anything from Paddock Woods,
but I have heard of them and none of that was bad.  No news is usually good
news. Buying stuff online is a great convenience, especially if your LHBS is
too far to drive.
I have 3 temperature controllers, two Johnson controllers and one two stage
digital controller by Ranco.  If you are an electronic type person, I guess
you could build one, but me thinks it is much easier to buy one.  If the
temperature where the fridge is going to be is steady and generally above
the temperature you will be controlling the fridge at, the Johnson
controller will work fine.  They usually run about $50 US.  More Beer has
these at  http://www.morebeer.com/

So does Paddock Woods, at
http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_equipment_thermo.html

Most other on-line Homebrew Shops carry them also.

If its warm in the days and cold at night, you might be better off with a
two stage Ranco digital electronic controller. I believe the model number is
ETC-211000-000.   This controller will turn the fridge on/off when its warm
outside, and then when the temp drops outside and the fridge drops below
your controlling temperature, it will turn a small heater on/off that you
put inside the fridge.  A good heater to use would be a small ceramic heater
used to keep pet lizards warm. I think they screw into a light bulb socket.
I do have one question for you though, what the devil is a BOP?  Cheers

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian

  



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