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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:  too sweet (617)253-0885" <CASEY at NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU>
  Scottish Heavy (Dale Veeneman)
  Re: Culturing yeast (dw)
  Liquid Yeast (John DeCarlo)
  yeast culturing (HOLTSFOR)
  Re: Yeast, Cultures and Amylase enzyme powder (long) (Glenn T. Colon-Bonet)
  More on Sweet Beer ("William F. Pemberton")
  Legality of home brewing ("david_f._nevin.Wbst300")
  Yeast reuse and Wonderful smelling fermentation (Enders)


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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 90 07:46 EST
From: "JEFF CASEY / (617)253-0885" <CASEY at NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re:  too sweet


Bill Pemberton says:
>>It seems (to me at least) that most of the brews I have made have been a 
>>touch too sweet for my liking.  ....  I have used several different yeasts...

I have noticed the same thing.  One real problem I found is that crystal
malt smells and tastes so good (while brewing) that it is a real test of your
self control and determination to add in only the required amount and no
more.  One of my best red bitters had none of my "trademark" sweetness, 
although I'd used the recipe before -- when I checked my notes, I had run
out of crystal, and had only been able to add in what was necessary, not
tip in a little more "for grins".
Also, if you are an extract brewer, stick to the pale extracts and modify
them with your own specialty grains for darker brews.  The amber and dark
extracts often have other sugars or caramel added, which really sicken the
taste (in my opinion).  M&F amber for example is much worse than M&F pale
with some crystal and roast barley added.
Yeasts: if you are using an unattenuative yeast, there will be more 
unfermentables left over, and the brew will be sweeter.  Most of the dry
ale yeasts (including Whitbread I believe) are fairly attenuative, so this
shouldn't be a problem.  See the yeast issue of Zymurgy (last fall) for
many details, and relax etc...

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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 90 9:29:28 EDT
From: Dale Veeneman <dev1 at gte.com>
Subject: Scottish Heavy

     I was in Glasgow a year ago and fell in love with an ale that
was referred to as "heavy" (always on tap - one brand I remember
was Tartan).  Does anyone have a recipe for this type of ale?  I
tried Burch's Scottish style brown ale (not even close) and a kit
from my local supplier (Glenbrew's Scottish heavy - not too good).
Last night I had a bottle of Belhaven real Scottish ale (heavenly)
and my desire has been re-kindled. 



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Date: 12 Apr 90 09:04:16 EDT (Thursday)
From: dw <Wegeng.Henr at Xerox.COM>
Subject: Re: Culturing yeast

>Anyway, [my beer] ready for a secondary now (been about a
>week), and I'm curious as to the right procedure for
>keeping this [yeast] culture alive for a few more batches.

I've read that you should be able to save a Cup of the yeast slurry in the
fridge for up to a week, and then add it to your next batch.  You may have
trouble extending it to several sucessive batches using this method, due to
contamination and mutation.  I've never tried this method.

Here's the procedure that I just started using to extend liquid yeast
through several batches of beer.  In advance I make up several quart jars
of sterile wort, filling each jar about half full.  I also have a Yeast
Bank from William's Brewing.  A few days before I want to make some beer
with a new type of yeast, I break the inner bag and wait for the outer bag
to swell up.  After it has swelled, I add the culture to one of the jars of
wort.  A day or so later there will be a nice head of foam on top, at which
point I fill several tubes from the yeast bank with wort, and use the rest
to make a batch of beer.  Next time I want to use this strain of yeast, I
make a starter from one of the yeast samples saved with the yeast bank.

I've left out many of the details, but I think you get the idea.

/Don

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Date: Thursday, 12 Apr 1990 10:43:48 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Liquid Yeast

>From: bnrgate!bnr-rsc!crick at uunet.uu.net (Bill Crick)
>
>... I then tossed the puffed pouch in the fridge to save it
>for use in another batch the next weekend.
>
>The instructions said that if you stored the activated yeast in a
>fridge for any period, it should be put in a starter before pitching.
>...
>Does anyone know if the 90-100F water was what killed it, or is the idea of
>storing it in the fridge after it starts to puff up is invalid?

The pouch puffs up as a result of the CO2 that the yeasts produce when feeding
on the malt in the pouch.  I would suspect that the puffed-up pouch is a
very good environment for killing the little yeasties.

I think the Wyeast packages also recommend making a starter if you wait
very long after the pouch puffs up before you use it.  I take this to
mean that you should use the pouch within hours of when it puffs out,
either to make a starter, culture it somehow, or pour it in the beer.

ARPANET:  M14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (or M14051%mwvm at mitre.arpa)
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date:     Thu, 12 Apr 90 13:21 EST
From: <HOLTSFOR%MSUKBS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:  yeast culturing


Greetings homebrewers --

I have couple of comments on yeast culturing, prompted by the notes from Bill
Crick and Andy Wilcox in HBD #397.  Bill was wondering whether refrigeration
and/or rehydration at 90-100 degrees F had killed his MeV yeast culture.  I
suspect that at least some of the yeast survived both of those perils.
However, they were probably not very active or very numerous when pitched.  I
have had good luck keeping yeast cultures alive when refrigerated.  This
is the preferred method of maintenance for yeast colonies growing on Petri
dishes.  I have also stored swollen packets of Wyeast cultures for > 2 weeks
and gotten good growth when these were pitched into starter cultures.  I
believe that a starter *culture*, and not just rehydration in warm water,
is probably a necessary step if you wish to pitch a culture that has been
refrigerated. Not only will the cold culture will be dormant, but the number
of viable yeast cells present in the swollen packet is probably much lower
than the number present in a packet of dry yeast.  This is because the yeast
culture in the foil packet will only multiply as long as the malt-sugar
medium in the packet lasts.  Packets of dry yeast, however, contain yeast
cells isolated from large vats with lots o' growth medium.  The advantages to
pitching Wyeast or MeV cultures are that 1) these cultures contain fewer wild
yeasts and bacteria than packets of dry yeast, and 2) when used as intended,
the liquid cultures are active when pitched.  By refrigerating the swollen
packet of liquid culture one negates the second advantage.  However, it is
difficult to predict how long your foil packet will take to swell, and how
long the culture remains active once the packet has swollen.  I would
recommend that if your packet of yeast has been fully swollen for more than a
day, or has been refrigerated, that you pitch it into a starter culture
and use the starter culture to pitch your wort.

The special yeast issue of Zymurgy is full of excellent information on yeast
culturing. Details of procedures and equipment for yeast culture can be found
there.  As to Andy Wilcox's querie about culturing from a primary fermenter ...
I guess you don't have the yeast issue of Zymurgy and that you can't wait
until you get one because you want to rack over to a secondary sometime
soon.  You can probably run out to your homebrew shop and pick up Papazian's
Complete Joy of Home Brewing and that'll give you the basic info.  However, I
would really recommend popping for another packet of liquid yeast culture and
culturing directly from the original culture.  There are always going to be
unwanted microbes in your primary fermentor -- at least in small numbers.  By
subculturing from the primary sludge you are giving these contaminants a
chance to get established.  A large portion of the yeast population in your
primary will go dormant when the blow-off stage stops.  If the bacteria or
wild yeasts "wake up" more easily than the desired yeast, then you may be
in trouble.  It is also possible to introduce new microbes into your
subculture at the time that you do the racking.  I know that most commercial
brewers, and many homebrewers, successfully reculture their yeast from batch
to batch.  However, I find it much more difficult to practice good sterile
transfer techniques with a five gallon carboy than with smaller glassware,
Petri dishes, and foil packets.  I worry much less about contamination when I
am working with a culture that was derived directly from a commercial packet
or bottle of beer than I did when I used to culture from fermenters.  It may
cost you another $3.50 to get started, but then you'll have a stock culture
that was derived directly from a clean culture.  You can use the new packet
to pitch another wort and still have enough sludge in the packet to start
your own stock culture.

                      Best o' luck & happy brewing,

                      Tim Holtsford
                      Kellogg Biological Station
                      Michigan State University
                      HOLTSFORD at MSUKBS.BITNET

P.S. How do you guys extract small pieces of text from this digest so that it
appears with a " > " on the left margin of your response?  I'm working on a
VAX running VMS.  Thanks.

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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 90 11:57:12 MDT
From: Glenn T. Colon-Bonet <gcb at hpfigcb>
Subject: Re: Yeast, Cultures and Amylase enzyme powder (long)
Full-Name: Glenn Colon-Bonet


Regarding Bill Crick's problem with preparing a starter
culture from a liquid yeast culture, I think the starter
that you used was a pretty weak solution, I typically use
1/2 cup of dry malt extract to 2 cups water.  Also, pitching
at 90-100F is pretty high!  When yeast experience drastic
temperature changes, from the fridge, into the 100F starter,
they tend to go dormant.  I always warm may liquid culture slowly 
to room temp (70F) and pitch into the same temperature starter 
culture.  I always use a starter culture to get about 16-20 oz.
of active yeast for pitching so that fermentation begins rapidly.
If you use the packets alone, you should allow 2 days for the 
packet to swell (possible more if the packet is old).  When using
a starter culture, allow 3-4 days: 2 for the Wyeast (MeV) packet
and 1-2 for the starter.  

In HBD #397 Andy Wilcox asks about Wyeast 1007:

I've used the German Ale yeast a few times and had pretty
good luck with reculturing it.  I currently use two different
methods for reculturing.  The easiest method for reculturing
is to plan to make your next batch of beer at the end of the
primary fermentation of your first batch.  After you finish
re-racking the first batch into the secondary, there will be
a large amount of yeast sediment in the bottom.  You can siphon
off (using carefully sanitized siphon hose) the yeast into your
starter bottle.  I typically fill about 1/4 of the bottle with the
sediment and add cooled sterile wort to it.  Aerate the starter
and attach a fermentation lock.  The starter is usually extremely
active within an hour or two, which is about right for finishing
your next batch!  Most of the books I've read say not to try
reculturing more than 3-5 times with the same yeast because of
mutation and infection problems.  

The other method for yeast culturing is the same as in the Zymurgy yeast 
issue - prepare petri dish cultures and/or slants from the Wyeast packet
and use these to innoculate a starter culture.  Petri dishes can
be ordered with sterile agar for yeast culturing from medical
supply companies.  I was able to purchase 10 dishes for $6.  You
will also need an innoculation loop (or make your own).  To 
innoculate the dish, place the dish cover side down on a table,
sterilize the innoculation loop by passing it through a torch flame
or other hot flame and insert the loop into the culture (wyeast packet
or other source) it will cool in the liquid and you should be able
to pick up some yeast.  Open the petri dish, holding the agar half
face down and run the innoculation loop in zig-zag patterns over
the surface.  Quickly close the dish back up, label it and place a
rubber band or tape over it to keep it closed.  Store it cover side
down so that condensation will always fall onto the cover, never onto
the yeast colonies.  Keep the sample warm for 4 days or until the
the yeast have formed healthy colonies (white and powdery looking).
If the dish shows non-white colors or stringy growths, the sample
is infected and shouldn't be used.  Refrigerate the dish after 4
days, it will last up to 6 months after innoculation.  You can make
as many yeast starters as you like from the petri dish culture
without the risks of mutation/infection, since the same source
is used for all cultures, rather than multiple generations.  Slants
work really well for keeping "master cultures" that you only use
for innoculation the petri dish cultures.  Since you only expose the
master every 6 months or so, it has less risk of becoming infected.

To prepare a starter from a dish, place the dish cover side down
on a table, sterilize the neck of the starter bottle by passing
it through the torch flame, sterilize the innoculation loop, 
open the dish, holding it so that the agar (yeast) side faces down,
and cool the loop on an unused section of the dish, pick up a 
sample of yeast on the end of the loop and insert it into a small
starter culture (2-4 oz of sterile wort in a well sterilized bottle).
Attach fermentation lock and when small starter becomes active (2 days), 
transfer to a larger starter (16-24 oz).  When the large starter is active
(1-2 more days) its ready to make beer!  

Culturing with petri dishes is fairly difficult and I'm not totally
convinced that its really worth all the hassle, but it is very
nice having a variety of yeasts to choose from, not just what the
local shop carries (if they carry any!).  At any rate, getting 
3 or more cultures from a single Wyeast packet brings the cost
down to the same or less than dried yeast, and the much better beers
from liquid yeast make it worth the extra time.

Regarding amylase powder, I've used it in mashing to finish off 
starch conversion when it wouldn't on its own (after 3 hours!), but
I've never used it during fermentation.  The bottle of it that I
have says "to remove starch haze from beer" on the label.  I've
never heard of using it to re-start a fermentation.  Yes, there is
such a thing as breaking down too much sugar.  The higher, unfermentable
sugars, such as dextrins, give beer body, head retention, and character.
Actually I'm surprised that this stuff can work at fermentation temps 
(65 - 70F), normally enzymes are active during mashing
around 150-158F.  Maybe something else is going on here?

Sorry for the long posting...  I got carried away!

			Have a great Easter!
			-Glenn

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Date:     Thu Apr 12 15:31:49 1990
From: "William F. Pemberton" <wfp5p at euclid.acc.virginia.edu>
Subject:  More on Sweet Beer


Several people have written me in regard to my problem with too
sweet beer.  I didn't post any recipes, but one reason is that
I have used several different ones, but here is a typical
example:

    0.5 lb.  Crystal Malt
    1 can    Unhoped Amber Extract
    1 can    Unhoped Light Extract
    1.5 oz   Northern Brewer's Hops (for boil)
    0.25 oz  Cascade Hops (for finish)
    Whitbread Ale Yeast

This produced a wonderful beer, except that it was just too sweet for
my likings.  I shouldn't complain too much, all my friends thought
it was great!

The two brands of extract that I use are John Bull and Munton &
Fison.  I would try others, but those are all that can be obtained
in this town!

I've tried several variations off of this, and all have worked
well, but still too sweet (for me).  Several people on the net
(thanks to all) suggested cutting back on the Crystal Malt.  I must
admit that is about the only constant in my beers, I always use
right around half a pound.  I think I will try a version with that
eliminated.

My current mutation of the above recipe uses a lager yeast instead
of an ale yeast (making a steam beer).  I had hoped that the yeast
was the culprit and the use of a lager yeast would do the trick.

Thanks again!

 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Bill Pemberton               flash at virginia.edu  -OR-  wfp5p at virginia.edu   |
|(804)971-1894               +-----------------------------------------------+
|University of Virginia      |     Itch me, but please don't scratch me.     |
|Charlottesville, Va         |                                               |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+


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Date: 12 Apr 90 17:49:25 PDT (Thursday)
From: "david_f._nevin.Wbst300" at Xerox.COM
Subject: Legality of home brewing


Don Wegeng has a good point about not discussing the legalization of drugs
in this forum; after all, Big Brother is undoubtedly listening and some of
us could get into trouble for not being sufficiently negative on the
subject.

But, how about the legality of home brewing?  If it weren't for the fact
that "cooler heads prevailed" on the 18th Constitutional Amendment our
hobby could put us in prison for 20 years.

In our government's overly-zealous, politically-motivated war against it's
citizens (the drug war) many personal freedoms are being lost.  So, the
next time you set out to brew a batch, bear in mind that there is a
movement 'out there' to label us as bad people.

I believe there will again come a time when we will have to defend our
right to drink beer.  Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

 - Dave -

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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 90 21:13:23 -0500
From: Enders <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Yeast reuse and Wonderful smelling fermentation


     Probably the simplest way to reuse a liquid yeast culture is to culture
the dregs from a bottle of homebrew made with the desired variety.  Of course,
if your batch goes bad (God forbid!!) you're out of luck.  

     As to wonderful smells arising from the fermenter, My latest batch, made
with Wyeast #1028 London Ale has an EXCELLENT aroma arising from the 
fermenter!  I can hardly wait to taste it!!!

Todd Enders                         ARPA: enders at plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center                     UUCP: ...!uunet!plains!enders
Minot State University              Bitnet: enders at plains
Minot, ND 58701


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #398, 04/13/90
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