---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Fermenting under pressure (Phil Sides Jr)
  brewing in AZ ("dave holt")
  Re: SG & Alcohol  As of 7/1/02 ("Steve Alexander")
  Yeast Ranching (Tony Barnsley)
  Visiting Belgium ("Lau, William T")
  fermenting under pressure (Alan McKay)
  re: Possibly stupid sparge question (Ken Schwartz)
  Re: SG & Alcohol.  As of 7/8/02 ("Pete Calinski")
  Testing - Water Calculation Spreadsheet ("Bates, Floyd SEPCO")
  Re:  Possibly stupid sparge question ("Cave, Jim")
  Troeg's ESB, Chicken and Pretzels ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  re: how long will bottles stay sanitized (Kevin Crouch)
  RE: Steve is right again (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Electric element (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: US Electrical System - 240V (Spencer W Thomas)
  cornmeal use thanks and upstate NY BJCP Exam ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Ireland pubs, breweries, etc. recommendations (jwhite)
  Misc (Road Frog)


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Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:51:48 -0400
From: Phil Sides Jr <altoidman at altoidman.com>
Subject: Re: Fermenting under pressure

David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com> asks:

>Does anyone know if there are any adverse/positive
>effects of fermenting under CO2 pressure? Is there any
>difference for ale or lager yeast.  Is there a safe
>pressure range for yeast (eg 10, 20, 30psi)?

There was a good article about this in the March/April 2002 issue of The 
New Brewer.  The trials were run during a three month period on 12 ales (6 
under pressure and 6 control beers).  The pressure ferments were under 15 
psi static head pressure.  There were interesting (but minor) variations 
noted by lab analysis and to a lesser degree, a certified taste panel.  One 
hoppy beer's bitterness increased enough to require recipe reformulation 
(by 2 IBU's).  The biggest difference was in the area of brewhouse yield. 
The pressure ferments averaged 2.2% more beer to the bright tank and thus 
validated the pressure fermentation method for use in a commercial 
brewery.  This is hardly a motivation for a homebrewer, but may be neat to 
play with.  I have toyed with pressure ferments myself for lagers with 
mixed results.  My motivation was necessity (equipment limitation) 
though...  FWIW, I found an increased sulfur level with some 
sulfur-throwing yeast strains.  In my experience, lagers need to blow this 
sulfur off.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD



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Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:53:11 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: brewing in AZ

Hey brewers.

My mind hasn't been on brewing lately.  But thanks goodness for the HBD and 
taking my mind off of things for a brief moment everyday.  By now, everyone 
in the US has heard about the Rodeo-Chediski fire in Arizona.  Little under 
a 1/2 million acre fire.  Until disaster is close to home, it is hard to 
imagine losing everything.  The fire came within a 1/2 mile of my house, I 
was evacuated for 2 weeks.  Neighboring communities weren't as lucky.  I 
feel extremely lucky that I can kiss my the grain mill and mag. pump I just 
bought and haven't used yet.  So you western brewers affected my fire and 
Texas with the floods, you have my sympathy.  Have a safe summer guys.

It is a good day when I can drink my APA out of the kegerator and know that 
my 10 gal. of ESB is safe.

Priorities man, priorities.

Still brewing in AZ.

Dave Holt
Forest Lakes, AZ

I wonder if my ESB will now be a Rauchbier due to the the smoke ;>)





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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 05:00:04 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SG & Alcohol  As of 7/1/02

Pete writes ....

> A = (OE-RE) / [2.0665- (0.010665 x OE)]   {by weight}
[...]

The formula you are examining has roots in a study of mass balance of
anaerobic maltose fermentation.   This study assumes about an 88%
fermentation efficiency, (sugar =>CO2 & ethanol) but the figure can vary
from the low 80s to low 90s%.    Another good estimate  but just an
estimate - good within a few percent.

- ----

A.J.deLange writes ...

>WRT the sucrose/wort fiction: some experiments carried out as described
>above show that the common sugars (sucrose, maltose, fructose, glucose
>and even dextrine) produce solutions whose specific gravities are very
>close to one another for a given strength.

Hmmm close enough for that Xmas gift hydrometer, but sucrose and maltose
differ in SG by about 1% at 15P, dextrins even more. proteins have low
enough density to offset much of this error.

- ---

Phil mentions .... SGdegrees ~= 4*Plato.   As AJ said this is untrue and SG
and Extract are two different things, not linearly related ... yet we all
use that 4X conversion as a 'close enough' estimate.

The Lincoln eqn says

SGdegrees = P / (0.2586 - 0.0008796*P)

now try calculating that in your head !

 -Steve




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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:13:21 +0100 
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Yeast Ranching

Hi all,

I've been having a private discussion with some of the chaps on the UK
homebrew group on the subject of yeast ranching. Now I usually store my
yeast frozen in a 50/50 mix of glycerol and water, and so far have not had
any failures in recovering the yeast (not that I've tried in a while but 18
months and 2 years in cryogenic storage didn't seem too much of a problem)

However several of the members have reported having problems with the method
I typically use. Typically they fail to wake up after only 2 or 3 months.

My method is quite simple. I take 200ml of clean washed yeast slurry (from a
primary or starter, and washed three times with sterile distilled water) add
300ml of a 50/50 mixture of Glycerol and sterile distilled water. Leave for
15 minutes then pour into autoclaved bottles and cap. These are then fast
frozen and stored at -20C until required.

To thaw, the bottles are held under a running cold tap. The yeast then gets
pitched into a starter (at a similar temperature) and once activity has
started, it gets built up in the normal manner.

Now I seem to recall that someone (Dr Cone?, George Fix?) said that freezing
in Glycerol is NOT suited to long term storage of yeast slurry.

What are the other options, Slants, Sterile Water in the fridge. Being a
lazy sort I've stayed away from slants as I don't want to be reculturing
every 6 months. Dr Cone said that for long term storage at Lallemand they
use slants with a layer of sterile mineral oil in the fridge. Anyone got any
further information on the method?

It was good to hear all the reports about the NHC, certainly made me want to
be there. I did get to thinking that as next year brings about one of those
'significant' birthdays the possibility exists that if I drop enough hints I
may be allowed to attend the next one in Chicago . . . . 

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Rennerian Coordinates (I'm Not Lost! I'm A Man, I don't ask for directions)

Email Disclaimer is:
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm

This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange
as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:50:30 -0400 
From: "Lau, William T" <william.lau at astrazeneca.com>
Subject: Visiting Belgium

My wife and I are vacationing in Belgium starting this coming Sunday (July
14th).  We will be in Brussels, Brugge and a day in Luxembourg City.  Does
anyone have any recent recommendations on bars, restaurants and "must sees"?

E-mail or post.

Thanks,

Bill Lau
AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals LP
587 Old Baltimore Pike
Newark, DE 19702-1307
Phone 302-286-4948
Fax     302-286-3126
william.lau at astrazeneca.com



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Date: Mon,  8 Jul 2002 07:23:45 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: fermenting under pressure


My understanding is that fermenting under pressure is the
norm in Germany, even among homebrewers.  That's about all
I know about it, though.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 05:40:43 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: re: Possibly stupid sparge question

Audie writes:

"Anyway, what would happen if I added my normal amount
of sparge water, STIRRED the grain heavily, and let it
sit for another hour, then opened my spigot and
drained off that liquid?  Or if I added the water and
didn't stir?  What would be the effect on efficiency
on soaking the grain?"

These are variations on "no-sparge" brewing.  Strictly speaking,
no-sparge brewing involves mashing and just running off the wort.
Adding additional water just before lautering picks up additional wort
and improves efficiency.  Intuitively it seems gentle stirring would be
better than not but I don't have evidence to support or refute this.

Another related technique, "batch sparging", involves running off the
wort once, then adding more water, then running off again.  This leads
to greater efficiency than "no-sparge" but involves extra steps.

These techniques are useful when space and/or equipment are limited; no
"3rd tier" is needed for a hot-liquor tank for traditional "on-the-fly"
(continuous) sparging.  The trade-off is in efficiency.

Check out my article on the webpage below giving some of the details of
the process and calculations.

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:22:49 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: SG & Alcohol.  As of 7/8/02

First I take care of my Oops-A-Doozy.  A 13.6 P solution is 13.6 GRAMS of
sucrose in 113.6 GRAMS of solution.  That is 13.6 Grams of sucrose with 100
Grams of H2O.  I would like to thank everyone that pointed that out to me
but it would exceed the 50k byte limit for message length.

To follow up on Steve's and Louis' comments about the solute being measured
by weight or volume.  The definition of Plato is weight but 1 ml (=1 cc) of
H2O weights 1 gram (at 4 degrees C). That is by definition.  So, if you can
accept the error do to the change in density from 4 degrees C to what ever
temperature you are working at, 1 ml=1 gm. still.


Anyway, back to my quest to make standard solutions simulating the
fermentation process.  It has been suggested that I use ethanol rather than
isopropyl alcohol.  I think that is a great idea.  Ethanol is much closer
to the alcohol(s) being generated in beer during fermentation.

It was also suggested that I use corn sugar rather than sucrose.  Maybe DME
would be even a better approximation to the contents of wort.  So while I am
in the process of auguring myself into the ground on this, I ask, why did I
bring this up in the first place?

I started this because I knew of two common instruments used to measure wort
during the brewing process.  The hydrometer and the refractometer.  Both can
give an indication of the sugar content of wort but not an actual content
because conversions from SG or IoR to sugar (Plato) are based on
measurements made with pure sucrose in distilled H2O and wort has other
sugars, alcohol, and other substances.  Still, comparing to sucrose in H2O
seems to be the accepted standard.  To make my calibration solutions, I will
stick to DH2O, sucrose, and ethanol.

So to repeat my process, corrected for errors and using ethanol, to make an
initial solution of OG=1.0483 (Plato=12), I will make a solution of 13.6 gm
of table sugar in 100 gm of DH2O.

Then to simulate that the "wort" fermented 25%, I will make a 9 Plato
solution with 1.55% by weight alcohol.

I get the % alcohol from:

ABW=(OE-RE) / [2.0665 - (0.010665*OE)]

ABW=(12-9) / [2.0665  - ( 0.010665*12)] = 1.55%

So using 90% ethanol, I would combine 100 gm  DH2O with 10.14 gm sucrose and
1.93 gm of ethanol and get what looks like 12 Plato wort, fermented 25%.
The equations are:

10.14/(100+10.14+1.93)= 9.05 Plato and

1.93*0.9(100+10.14+1.93)=1.55%


Is this reasonable?

Can I use the same process to simulate the 50%, 75% and 100% fermented?

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:43:17 -0500 
From: "Bates, Floyd SEPCO" <floyd.bates at shell.com>
Subject: Testing - Water Calculation Spreadsheet


If anyone would like to assist me in testing a spreadsheet that I create
based on AJ DeLange's writings, please e-mail me.  Although I have compared
it to Mr. DeLange's sample calculations, I think it is ready to have other
brewers run it through a test or two.

Note that I take into account any water associated with each brewing salt
(i.e. MgSO4-7H20).  This may cause some confusion when trying to compare the
results from my work to others.

Cheers.


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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:57:41 -0700 
From: "Cave, Jim" <Cave at psc.org>
Subject: Re:  Possibly stupid sparge question


	When sparging, you are trying to make use of a density gradient from
high sugar in the grain bed to low sugar in the fluid surrounding the grain
bed.  By maintaining the density gradient throughout the sparging process,
you are able to extract much of the sugar from the grain.  If you added all
the sparge water once, and wait for an hour, you don't make full use of the
density gradient. After a few minutes, the sugar concentration in the
supernatent (the fluid outside of the grain) will be similar to the sugar
concentration in the fluid in the grain.  Lots of sugar will be left in the
grain. 

	You are referring to a process called "batch sparging", except, by
only doing it once, you'll leave a lot of sugar behind in the grain.

					Jim Cave


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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:31:40 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at msn.com>
Subject: Troeg's ESB, Chicken and Pretzels

What a pleasent surprise it was to see our local micro featured in Zymurgy.
The article on Troeg's ESB was very good and after I showed it to one of the
owners of the brewery he said the recipe is right on. If you've never had
the opportunity to try this great beer or any of the others that Troeg's
produces then you are missing out. Plus the two Trogner brothers are big
supporters of the home brewing community in Central Pennsylvania.

OK now that I made the post about beer I can go on. The beer can chicken has
to be the absolute best that I have ever tasted. This is such a simple but
yet so tasteful way of cooking chicken I can't imagine doing it any other
way.

Last but not least, major kudos to Jeff Renner for the soft pretzel recipe.
I tried my first batch yesterday and they were outstanding. I took them to a
cookout and they received rave reviews. Not to mention that they were gone
so quick I didn't even have any at the picnic. As a decent cook I'm always
up to trying new things but usually don't do the dough thing very well.
However I was surprised by the simplicity of these. I would like to make a
few suggestions for those of you who are dough challenged like me. The
recipe calls for shortening. It says to combine all of the "dry"
ingredients. Well I'm looking at this shortening and thinking it's not dry
so where do I use this. Well in with the dry ingredients dummy. Ok I got
through that one. A 1/4 cup of water for the yeast. OK no problem. Now add
that to the dry ingredients and mix. Hey this stuff looks awfully dry. Oh
add more water. Jeff did say that I just didn't read it since the only water
in the list of ingredients was the 1/4 cup for the yeast. Aw now we've got
dough. I probably added close to another cup of water. Sounds close Jeff?
Let the dough rise until it's doubled. OK no problem there. Now seperate
into 12 dough balls. Hmm.... SWMBO offered this idea. Take the entire pile
of dough and start rolling it out into a log. Then take a pizza cutter or a
knife and then measure and cut 12 even chunks. Worked great. Jeff says to
roll each chunk out to 18 to 20 inches. I'd definately go the full 20 inches
as the longer ones seemed easier to twist. Speaking of which my 4 1/2 year
old daughter and I practiced this with her play dough before using the real
stuff. Practice does make perfect. I'd also recommend you keep a small bowl
of water handy because if the dough begins to dry a little then when you
make the pinchs where the dough meets it doesn't stick to well. Just simply
dip you fingers in the bowl of water before you try to make the pinch. Also
be careful when you place them a a tea towel after the lye bath. My wanted
to stick to the tea towel. Also I baked them on parchment paper. No sticking
and easy clean up. One other item was the timing of the baking. I think the
recipe says 12 to 15 minutes. Mine were done in 10 so don't just put them in
and set the timer to 15. You could end up with hard pretzels or worst yet
burnt pretzels. Again thanks Jeff and I would certainly welcome any of you
suggestions or comments.

Thanks,
Jeff Beinhaur
The Yellow Breeches Brewery
Camp Hill, PA




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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:39:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: how long will bottles stay sanitized

The conversation on sanitized, stored vessels is
interesting from a theoretical standpoint, though I
wouln't risk it unless I had run out of santizing
solution.  My own view is that if the vessel is
properly cleaned leaving no organic residues, then
there should be nothing for any "bugs" left behind in
the sanitization to grow on. Most likely they will,
depending on the variety, either die, form spores, or
cease to grow.  Then it becomes a game of numbers when
the wort is added and the yeast is pitched.

Dr. Pivo's intuition on pH and Hops is right on in
some accounts.  Lactic acid bacteria such as
Lactobacillus and P.damnosus thrive in highly acidic
environs, even down to pH 3.5 and hop oils do little
to thwart them.  Acetic acid bacteria follow the same
generalization, but with one major distinction that
contradicts one of Dr. Pivo's good guesses. 

"beer derived from that carboy eventually
developed a sour tinge that worsened with time that
I'm guessing
acetobacter to be the author of."

Since acetobacter are aerobic organisms, they can only
grow in a well aerated wort pre-fermentation,  and
then again later if significant air exposure of the
fermented beer occured, but this would most likely be
noticed as a while scum on the surface.

The souring over time sounds to me like a lactic acid
bacteria that grew up in the yeast , but I suppose it
is possible that it grew on some organic residue
inside your sanitized, stored fermentation vessel and
then had enough time during the yeasts lag phase to
grow to detrimental numbers. 

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA




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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:55:04 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Steve is right again

Phil Yates wrote:

> I just wish Steve would stop getting everything right, soon 
> we'll be running out of things to argue about.
> 
> Then where will the HBD be?!!
> 

Quite correct, Phil, that's why we need that Graham chap back in here for
balance. He get's everything wrong! ;-)

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:04:12 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Electric element

Mark Ellis writes:

> I bought a element today to fit to my lauter tun to
> hopefully be used as a efficient heat source for boiling the 
> wort. My lauter tun is a converted 50 litre ss keg. Do you 
> think that a 2400watt element will be sufficient for boiling 
> temp on 40 litre batches?

Just to add to what has already been written, my batches are around 40
liters pre-boil, and I have a converted keg electric boiler, so it is as if
the brewing gods had directed you to me for my wisdom.

In a word, no.

I have two 3000W low watt density elements (I'm told that's important to
prevent scorching) and both on full 220V power will get the boil going
reasonably quickly. 

One element is switchable between 110V and 220V, and I find a good steady
rolling boil can be achieved with one element on high, and one on low. That
works out to about 3750W. I find with only one 3000W element on, I can't
maintain a suitable boil, so I would say your 2400W element would fall far
short.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:41:10 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: US Electrical System - 240V 

About a week ago, Larry Bristol asked about plug/outlet shapes.

In the US, plug shape varies according to the voltage, the number of
phases, and the amperage.  This is true even for 120V plugs.  A plug
for a 20A appliance should have one "vertical" and one "horizontal"
blade (plus the grounding blade, of course) so that you can't plug it
into a 15A outlet.  If you look at a 20A outlet, you will see that one
of the slots is "T" shaped.  It will accept either a "standard" (i.e.,
15A) plug (two vertical blades) or a 20A plug.

When it comes to 240V, you can have a "2-phase" or "3-phase" circuit,
with or without grounding (usually with these days!), and with or
without a "neutral" conductor (as opposed to the ground conductor).
Amperage ratings range from 15 to 40 and up.  Each of these has a
different shape.  Plugs may also be "locking" or not -- a locking plug
is twisted after inserting it into the socket to "lock" it in place,
so that it won't fall out.

http://www.baldor.com/pdf/NEMA.pdf has a nice summary chart of US
outlet shapes.  Leviton has a more elaborate chart of the "straight
blade" configurations.  Go to http://www.leviton.com, click on "Tech
Support", then on "Straight blade NEMA chart".  A google search for
"nema chart" reveals many others.

I assume that other countries also have variations in their plug
shapes, but I don't know the correct search terms to find them.  There
are lots of charts out there for "standard" plug shapes for various
countries.  I assume that these correspond roughly to the 15A, 120V
plug that is the default plug shape in the US, but that there may be
other shapes for higher amperage and/or voltage configurations.

=Spencer



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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:42:44 -0400 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: cornmeal use thanks and upstate NY BJCP Exam

Many thanks to Jeff Renner and Marc Sedam on their very well-languaged
cornmeal/cereal mash topics.  I feel like I have a good understanding of the
technical reasoning behind it all now whereas before I just did it because
the recipe said so.  Someday I'll do a CAP rather than a CACA.

Also, I am trying to get enough folks together for BJCP Study Sessions and a
possible November BJCP Exam in upstate Albany, NY.  If you are at all local
to that area and are interested, please reach me at email via: pete_czerpak
at hotmail.com.  If you just want to take the exam without participating in
the study session (Darrell L.??), also let me know as we need a minimum of
bodies atleast who can committ.  If people will be coming in for the exam,
its likely local homebrewers will happily take you in.

Hope everybody's brewing summers are going well.  I'm finally done with 5
batches plus a mead all for a friend's wedding celebration coming up later
this month.  FWIW, the mead was brewed last July and is being poured from
nice cobalt blue 1 liter fliptops.  Too bad the bottles cost more than the
mead itself (although not in ageing time).

Thanks,
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 22:22:29 -0700
From: jwhite <jwhite139 at comcast.net>
Subject: Ireland pubs, breweries, etc. recommendations

Hello, I'm going to Ireland for vacation next month and was looking for
recommendations and insight of where the very good to excellent - not to
miss -beer/food places are in Southern Ireland.  I'm in Dublin a few days
and then off to Waterford, Killarney, Bunratty, and County Clare over about
7-8 days.  I've got a chauffeur driver for touring the countryside and
therefore (theoretically) no problems finding places or worrying about
driving!

Thanks - Jay



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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: Misc

First good to read you again Dave, and Dr. Pivo!

"Alan McKay asks if his sanitised bottles can wait a
few days, and I haven't seen a reply yet."

I have gone 5 days, with no ill effects.  I have not
pushed it any farther.  I rinse 3 times after empting
the bottle, then throw in the dishwasher with bleach.

From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: premashing cereal grains
 ... Marc Sedam writes an extremely detailed account of
what happens in the mash with cereal grains.  However
detailed the account, I have to disagree with claim
that pre-mashing is a requirement :

I meant to write this up, blame it on time or
embarrassment.

Out with SWMBO one day I saw some potato flakes,
starch!

Long story short, worst brewing day of my life.  I
just threw it in the mash, only managed to get 4
gallons of wort.  Should have been 10!  When my wife
got home and asked about my day I said, "I should have
gone to work!"

Glyn
Displaced, but closer to the center,
MI in a couple of weeks



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---