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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  plastic vs glass ("dave holt")
  Announcement of scholarship recipients ("Keith Lemcke")
  Re.temp cycling myth (Ken Pendergrass)
  Bitter Beer, more details ("Mac")
  Gump On Fast Ferms' ("Rob Moline")
  Hefe (leavitdg)
  Weissheimer Pils malt: does it need a protein rest? (Mark Linton)
  Oh, Canada? (mohrstrom)
  RE: Oktoberfest recipe? (Paul Shick)
  re:  White Labs Hefe IV (Paul Kensler)
  RE: Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Food Grade Plastic (Chuck Doucette)
  Re:  Primary Temps ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting (Demonick)
  RE: Opinions on this Oktoberfest Recipe-- (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Propane??? ("Brady, Eric")
  phenolics, etc (HOMEBRE973)
  Re: Primary Temps (Kelly Grigg)
  Re:  Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: Wyoming Hops (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Electronic evaluation and smoking (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Primary temps (Victor.E.Franklin)
  Primary temps (LJ Vitt)
  RE: Lager/beer fridge & Beer storage temps (Victor.E.Franklin)
  re: Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting (Ed Jones)
  Re: Australian Barley Technical Symposium (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Bitter Beer...alcohol (Kevin Crouch)
  smoking malt (Jeff & Ellen)
  Opinions on quat wanted (Mitchell Surface)


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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:29:13 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: plastic vs glass

I knew brewers can be adamant about the type of fermenters used.  The debate 
has been around forever.  There are good and bad with any of them.  Comes 
down to personal preference.

Which Brian Lundeen writes:

>I won't even get into a discussion of the unlikely scenario that your 
> >plastic fermenter was imparting bleach residue into your beers even 
> >after a scalding water rinse. How is this a condemnation of plastic? >You 
>switch two variables, but pin the improvement on only one? Try >picking up 
>a new plastic fermenter, a proper food grade plastic bucket >I might add, 
>use your iodophor on it, and see if you still feel that >plastic is ruining 
>your beers.

Damn!  This helps explain all the crappy beer I drank in college.  Beer in 
plastic cups.....

Didn't mean to rile you Brian.  Wasn't my intent.  I was trying to say that 
there are possible problems using bleach with plastic.  I've had great beers 
fermented in plastic and bleach used as a sanitizer.  I have even made good 
beers and done well in competition using this setup. But when I started 
getting feedback on my scoresheets about chlorophenol, I did changes that I 
thought would get rid of this defect.  One of the judges even suggested on 
the scoresheet, use a different sanitizer.  Once pointed out to me, I was 
able to taste this in my beer.  Once I switched, I have never tasted it 
again or by the judges.

>From what I have read, it takes a great deal of water to rinse away the 
residue of bleach/chlorine.  This was probably my mistake, I didn't rinse 
enough.  Rinsing defeats the purpose of sanitizing and why I switched to no 
rinse iodophor.

Before I started brewing in No Arizona and using good tasting forest well 
water, I brewed in the Phoenix area.  Phoenix water is horrible.  Sediment, 
smelly, chlorinated, hard, bad tasting crap.  I used bottled RO water for 
brewing.  Unless the bottled RO water was chlorinated and not advertised as 
being so, I maintain that the chlorophenol is from the bleach residue.

Now wait a minute, you used chlorinated Phoenix water with the iodophor!!  
Also another reason not to rinse after sanitizing with bleach. The 
chlorination of the water depends on where they are drawing the water from 
and thus, varies throughout the year.

I believe I have read in the past here, that if you have chlorinated water, 
boil it, let it cool, and then it is acceptable for use. Could explain why 
the chlorinated water with iodophor was not a problem.  Whatever chlorine 
present was boiled off in the brew kettle.

I have other problems with bleach.  Namely, I got tired of ruining clothes.  
On brewday, everything gets wet including me.  While iodophor will stain if 
the full concentration is not cleaned up immediately, I haven't found 
diluted iodophor to be a problem yet.

I agree with you that changing two variables is not the way to measure 
improvement in this instance. Changing one factor at a time (OFAT) can be 
used to optimize one factor but isn't effective in finding interactions 
between variables..  A full factorial Design of Experiments (DOE) could be 
done.  Fermenter material could be one factor, sanitizer another and so on.  
This technique could be used on the great fermenter geometry debate also.  
But, the caution is, what is the measured or desired output?  I guess the 
level of sanitizer detected in the finished beer.  I suspect if this 
experiment was carried out, it would probably be found that bleach is a 
problem on glass as well.  Plastic is porous.  Can it make the bleach 
residue more problematic?  Don't know.  Anyway, doing a DOE is beyond my 
interest on this subject.

Does anyone use bleach with glass fermenters?

I still use plastic occasionally and I use iodophor.  Generally I will do 
this if I want to tie up a fermenter (secondary) for an extended time such 
as when I do a mead or cider.  And yes, they do turn out well in plastic.

I'm sure the other sanitizers out there are effective too, so please don't 
think I am touting the benefits of iodophor.  It is just what I have 
experience with.  The others are not readily available in the HB shops here. 
  I do have to say about bleach, it is cheap and is available everywhere.  
Star san sounds interesting.  Local restaurant supply places don't carry it 
around here either.

I do use food grade buckets supplied by the local HB shops.

As far as infection goes, I had 3 batches out of 35 when using plastic.  
With 70 batches in glass and iodophor, zero infection.  The plastic 
infections were probably my inability to recognize when a plastic fermenter 
should be replaced.  I would run my hand over the plastic trying to feel for 
scratches and by visual inspection.  I treated the inside with kid gloves as 
far as cleaning too.  Guess not good enough.

Overall, I think I am condemning bleach as a sanitizer more than the use of 
plastic.  My concerns were eliminating infection and the presence of 
chlorophenols in my beer.  Chlorophenol was eliminated by not using bleach.  
Infection eliminated by switching to glass because I am unable to detect 
when a bucket needs replaced.  My detection was an infected batch of beer, 
time to throw the beer and the bucket away.  Too painful!  Or another 
possibility, rinsing the bleach defeated sanitizing the bucket.

Plastic has its merits.  Glass certainly has its drawbacks.  In the long 
run, I will probably add some stainless conicals.  Why, because I can and it 
is something else to play with.


Dave Holt

Yes, I do have plastic in my brewhouse.  Zapap and cooler mash/lauter tun.  
And, I probably should have let this thread die.....Ready to be flamed.





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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:58:51 -0600
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Announcement of scholarship recipients


I just wanted to thank all those who sent in scholarship applications to the
Siebel Institute & World Brewing Academy. The two recipients listed below
are proud home brewers, and both are employed in small breweries within
their community. We hope you will join us in congratulating them.

Keith Lemcke,

Siebel Institute of Technology /
World Brewing Academy



- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


World Brewing Academy Diploma Course in Brewing Technology Scholarship

The World Brewing Academy, is proud to grant the 2002 scholarship for the
WBA Diploma Course in Brewing Technology to Christine Bump of Mount Joy, PA.

The World Brewing Academy congratulates Ms. Bump on her commitment to the
craft and science of brewing, and the Faculty of the World Brewing Academy
looks forward to helping her build her future in the brewing industry.



- --------------------------------------------------------------------------



WBA Concise Course in Brewing Technology Gus Chalfant Memorial Scholarship


The family of Justin Davis (Gus) Chalfant (1970-1997) and the Indiana
Microbrewer's Festival are proud to provide a full tuition scholarship for
the fall 2002 WBA Concise Course in Brewing Technology to Thomas K. Johnson
of Knoxville, Tennessee.

Mr. Johnson and the World Brewing Academy would like to thank the Chalfant
family and the Indiana Microbrewer's Festival organizers for their continued
support of brewing industry education. You can learn more about the Gus
Chalfant Memorial Scholarship on our web site at
http://www.siebelinstitute.com/registration/scholarship.html .




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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:26:44 -0400
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re.temp cycling myth

George,

Wrote who cares if it throws a bit of  chill  haze?

Amen! I never got the point of haze wars.  Crystal clear beer is a Bud
and Miller kind of thing.  And never was a  concern in days of  old,
IMHO. Usually all it takes to be rid  of haze is to chill the beer a bit
more. But who cares relax have a  Hefe. I  get a real kick out of a
Day-Glo Hefe. Filter water not beer and  bottle condition.

Ken



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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:34:22 -0500
From: "Mac" <D.McHenry at ev1.net>
Subject: Bitter Beer, more details

First I want to thank those who have already written me welcoming me to Home
Brewing and offering their advice and assistance.  Seemed like everyone
needed more details, so they will follow.

As a re-cap, I just finished my first batch of HB.  It was/is supposed to be
a "Mexican Style Beer".  It has a nice amber color, doesn't taste bad at
all, carbonated very well.  It's been 3 weeks since I bottled it and to me
it seems kind of bitter.  I wasn't sure if that is sort of normal or if it
will change some after letting it age a bit longer.  I also asked about how
I can tell what the alcohol content might be.

Details:
ingredients -
1 can hopped malt extract (Brewmart "Mexican Style", 3 lbs 10 oz.)
2 lbs. unhopped malt extract (I believe, it was in a plastic tub, could have
been
   brewery grade corn syrup)
1 oz. hops (little pellets)
1 oz. Nottingham Ale Yeast - Dry Finish
3/4 cup corn sugar
1 pkg. Bru-Vigor (yeast food)

Started on 6/23.  After sanitizing all equipment with B-T-F Iodophor:
 - Brought 2 (?) gallons of water to boil in a stainless steel kettle.
 - Added Malt.
 - Brought wort to boil again and added 1/2 oz. hops.
 - Maintained boil for at least 30 minutes.
 - Turned off heat and added the remaing 1/2 oz. hops.
 - Cooled the wort.
 - While wort cooling, sprinkled the dried yeast into 1/2 cup of body temp
water (didn't have a thermometer yet - do now). Covered with Saran Wrap.
 - Poured the cooled wort into the primary fermenter and added cold water up
to a 5 gallon mark and stirred.
 - Took an initial hydrometer reading (S.G.=1.041), but didn't adjust for
temp as I didn't have a thermometer.  My guess would be about 80 degrees. So
maybe I should add .002 or .003, which would make it about 1.043 or 1.044 ??
 - Added the yeast solution and sprinkled in the Bru-Vigor into the wort.
 - Snapped on the lid and airlock.
====================================
on 6/26 after 3 full days of a lot of fermentation activity had subsided, I
siphoned into the secondary fermenter (a carboy).  Now the S.G. reading is
1.011  at  75 degrees, so I add .002 to come up with 1.013.
====================================
After another 1.5 weeks, on 7/6 I was ready to bottle.  The F.G. reading was
1.009  at  77deg so I added .002 to arrive at 1.011.
 - I poured the 3/4 cup of priming sugar into a small saucepan with a cup of
water and brought to a boil. (of course I'm also cleaning and sanitizing my
primary fermenter, bottles, caps, hoses, etc).
 - I put the liquid priming sugar (after cooling down) in the primary
fermenter and siphoned the beer from the secondary fermenter back to the
primary with the sugar in it, making sure it was getting mixed up without
trying to introduce any extra air to the mixture.
 - Siphoned the beer into 42 bottles capping immediately.
====================================

I let set 2 weeks before I began sampling.  I was hoping it wouldn't be
flat, and luckily it is well carbonated.

I had another one tonight with dinner, and it seems pretty good - but with a
bit of a bitter aftertaste.

Again, thank you to those who have already responded or have written me
directly.  I'm sure like all of yall, I don't want to waste 5 gal. of beer -
I want to create something that's better than what I can buy in a can or
longneck.

Mac
Houston TX, USA



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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:46:59 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Gump On Fast Ferms'

			Gump On Fast Ferms'
     I am advised by James McClaren, "The fastest fermentation I know is in
Brazil, where they make 10% alcohol in 7.5 hours and recycle the yeast 4
times in a day. Needless to say this is not drinking alcohol, except by
automobiles."
     Jim is one of my God's..... he has forgotten more than I am yet to
learn.....
     YMMV....
Gump

Rob Moline
Lallemand

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:03:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Hefe

Brian;

  I am wonderring....did your fermentation temperature go too high?
Sorry if that is obvious...but I have found that with Trappist, and
Hefe's  I need to keep the temps down below the upper limit..or I get
nasty flavors...which, when managed, can be nice...

 .Darrell


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 05:53:53 -0500
From: Mark Linton <cryptcl at earthlink.net>
Subject: Weissheimer Pils malt: does it need a protein rest?

Hi all,

I made my first batch of beer since the weather turned nice, and had a
quick question.  I made a Bohemian Pilsner using Weissheimer Pilsen
malt.  For simplicity, I chose to do a single 151F rest for about an
hour.  The temp fell to about 149F by the end of the mash.  After the hour, 
the iodophor test showed no blackness at all,
looked like all had converted.  All the rest of the brewing steps went
fine, the only thing out of the ordinary that I noticed was that there
really wasn't that hot break moment (or what I've been calling a hot
break) where just before you get a full rolling boil going, there's a
hugh layer of rising foam that develops.  That never happened with this
batch.  It just started to boil, no muss no fuss.

Ingredients:
7 lbs. Weissheimer Pils
1.5 lbs. Weyermann Pils (didn't have enough Weissheimer to meet my target O.G.)
0.5 lbs. Breiss CaraPils

o.g. = 1.048

I didn't think too much about it until I was just reading the Paddock
Wood website, saying that Weissheimer needs the 40C, 50C, 60C and 70C
rests.  Has anyone else found that to be true?  What's the worst case
scenario of not doing the multi-rests with this malt?  It seems to be 
fermenting vigorously right now, but is the downside that it probably won't 
clear properly?

Thanks!




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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:44:55 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Oh, Canada?

John Misrahi offers CCCA recipe hints:
> ... we got around to brewing our Classic CANADIAN Cream
> Ale... (Hi Drew A. !) ...  4 kg 6 row, 1 kg corn, 1oz UK
> Northdown hops (bittering), 1 oz Hallertauer (flavour)[sic],
> 1oz Hallertauer (aroma).

Good to see that Canada has wholeheartedly embraced the metric system!


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:48:31 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: Oktoberfest recipe?


Hi all,

      Parker Dutro writes in asking for feedback on
the grain bill for his Oktoberfest:

 >Munich Malt 8L------------- 4.0 lbs.
 >Vienna Malt 4L------------- 2.8 lbs.
 >Pilsener Malt (2-row)------ 3.75 lbs.
 >CaraMunich 60L------------- 0.50 lbs.
 >Crystal 60L---------------- 1.25 lbs.
 >Total---------------------- 12.30 lbs.
 >The recipe calls for a 127 f rest for 25 minutes,
 >then 155 f sach.

      Parker, it looks pretty good to me, but I'd be
inclined to make two changes.  First, you've got a
total of 1.75 lbs of 60L crystal/CaraMunich in the
recipe, which will add way too much of a sticky-sweet
note to the beer.  You're looking for a nice toasty
maltiness here.  If you cut this back to .5-.75 lbs,
with all of the higher-kilned Vienna and Munich, you'll
get the malt profile you probably want.  Second, a
protein rest is almost certainly unnecessary for this
grain bill, even if the malts listed are all European.
Just dough in at 152-155F, rest for 60 or so minutes,
and you'll be fine.  I'd probably aim for 152F, to make
sure you get enough fermentability with a grist with this
much Munich and Vienna.

     The malts listed certainly have enough diastatic power
to convert here. although it won't be quite as quick as a
grist which is all Pils or American 6-row.  6 minutes will
do the trick, though.

      Be sure not to over-bitter:  if you can keep it below
about 25 IBUs, the malt really will shine through, as you
hope.

      Good luck with the OFest.  It's a great style that
really goes over well at parties.

                           Paul Shick
                           Cleveland Hts, Ohio








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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:01:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:  White Labs Hefe IV

Brian,
I recently did exactly the same thing - split a batch
with White Labs' regular hefe and hefe IV. 
Personally, I prefer my hefes to lean more towards the
phenolics.

I did observe some interesting things:
The hefe IV yeast finished out at 1.008 but _tasted_
sweeter than the regular hefe yeast that finished out
at 1.012.
The hefe IV yeast was indeed more phenolic and less
estery than the regular hefe yeast (just the way I
like them) but I did not perceive any chloro-phenols. 

I'm pretty sensitive to phenolics (maybe that's why I
like phenolic hefe's and Belgians so much), but
perhaps you are sensitive to something that I am not. 
Since you specifically mentioned bleach-like
phenolics, did you use any bleach anywhere in the
process?
For what its worth, the beer made with the hefe IV
yeast was recently judged at the Spirit of Free Beer
competition and although it was dinged for not being
estery (banana-y) enough, it did take first place and
there were no mention of offensive phenols, technical
flaws, or bleach / plastic chlorophenols on the
judging sheets.

I'll definitely use this yeast again, but I certainly
won't avoid the White Labs 300 regular hefe or Wyeast
3068.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:00:08 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting

Greetings brewers.

Nils Hedglin recently purchased a 2 hole carboy cap to facilitate siphoning,
but has infected his brews by blowing into one hole.

I use these caps all the time to start siphons, but I use my CO2 bottle to
'blow' into the carboy. I have a tee coming out of my regulator, with a QD
on one side & a mini ball valve on the other. I have a 6" length of 1/2" ID
tubing fastened to the ball valve. I connect a standard racking tube to this
(just shove it in), add another 6" length of 1/2" ID tubing to the other
there is NOT a complete seal so that pressure won't build up too high to be
hazardous.

I put my sanitized racking cane in the middle hole, but leave the bottom of
the cane in the headspace. I put the racking tube into the receiving carboy
down to the bottom, and blow CO2 into the primary which ends up purging the
secondary. Then I lower the cane into the beer, and the siphon starts.

I also use this process to rack from secondary to keg, except I attach a
liquid QD to the other end of the racking cane and rack into the 'beer out'
post, filling the keg from the bottom with just the relief valve open to the
air. 

If you don't have CO2, then I would recommend using a HEPA filter inline to
catch the nasty bugs in your breath.

Hope this helps.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
Proud to be a member of the American Homebrewers Association




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Food Grade Plastic

Is there anything special about food grade plastic? I
have looked at the bucket I use for my primary
fermenter, and have noticed that the buckets you can
buy at Home Depot are the same kind of plastic, both
HDPE. What makes one food grade and the other not? Or
does it matter?

- ------------------

Steve Parfitt suggests using paint stripper for
removing the glue residue  from the outside of Dave
Holts cornies. Might I suggest using Naptha instead?
You should be able to abtain it from your local
hardware store. It is much less offensive than paint
stripper and will not affect most plastics (I have
used it to clean glue residue from those nice CD/DVD
cases that AOL is kind enough to send me.) or dry
paint. It will also evaporate and thus does not
require any special treatment for disposal. It does a
great job on the glue, though.

 

My $0.02, FWIW.

Chuck Doucette

O'Fallon, IL  (Rennerian coordinates unknown at this
moment)




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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:12:06 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Primary Temps

David asks about controlling fermentations temps in summer weather.

David, I have two words - Fermentation Chiller.  I built one of these from
plans offered on line by Ken Schwartz
(http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/chiller/chiller.html).  I can't thank Ken
enough for dreaming up this device, it definitely rocks.

This thing works so well I don't even worry about cooling wort to
fermentation temps before pitching.  I aim for as low as possible, but given
the temp of Knoxville tap water, I usually end up around 80 F.  I just pitch
the yeast and throw it in the FC and crank the temp down.  After about 6
hours it's below 72 and headed on down to 66-68 where I ferment nearly all
of my ales.  It holds temps extremely well.  I just can't say enough good
things about the Fermentation Chiller.  Although I haven't tried it yet, I
feel confident you could ferment lagers in it easily with the addition of a
couple extra ice jugs.

I would definitely give this device a look, plus it was a fun project to
build.

Brewin' cool in the steamy South,

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice."



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:13:12 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting

I routinely use these carboy caps.  Mine are orange.  

When transfering into a carboy, suck, don't blow, particularly unfermented
wort.  When tansferring green beer (fermented) into a non-carboy, e.g. keg
or (god-forbid, a bottling bucket) blow as little as possible.  When
blowing, the longer the extension tube you blow into the better.  Some 
people have been known to stuff cotton in the extension tube - I don't.

I've never had an infected batch.  

Are you sanitizing the cap, and airlock?  Are you sanitizing the neck of
the carboy?  Is the cap sealing the carboy?  Are you getting airlock liquid
suck-back?  Have you handled your racking cane with your bare hands while
stuffing it through the cap?  

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:15:10 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Opinions on this Oktoberfest Recipe--

Parker Dutro asked if his Ofest recipe has enough enzymes to do the job.

I've made dunkels & alts with 95% - 100% munich malt (half dark, half light)
and had no problem with conversion. With your additional Vienna and Pils
malts, you will have no problem at all. If anything, you might need to mash
a little longer.

Concerning the 127F rest, there is anecdotal evidence that a prolonged
protein rest in the lower 120's can adversely impact head formation &
retention. Whenever I do a protein rest, I usually keep it above 130F for no
more than 15 minutes. It has been said that this can actually improve foam
characteristics.

As for the whole hop/pellet conversion, there is only a 10% difference in
utilization. If you want to bother with measuring out 10% more whole hops,
go ahead, but I contend that you won't be able to tell the difference. I
don't think a professional taster could differentiate between 25 ibu or 22.5
ibu.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
Proud member of the American Homebrewers Association

Have a suggestion on improving the AHA? email me at stevejones at aob.org




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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:27:49 -0500
From: "Brady, Eric" <EBrady at admin.housing.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Propane???

Let me start by saying that I am VERY green. I am on my 3rd batch with malt
extracts. I noticed the little ditty posted by Mac in issue 4002 about
propane. I have been thinking about getting one of those propane deep fat
fryer for brewing and was wondering what I should look/look-out for. Many of
the local stores are now trying to get rid of there seasonal stock so prices
are cheep. How many batched can you do with one tank (standard grill size)
of propane? Any issues with using the pot that is supplied?
	Secondly OT my last batch was an attempt at a vanilla, I used Mutons
wheat malt and added 2lb honey and .75oz of vanilla (pure) extract. I was a
bit disappointed as the vanilla is hardly noticeable. Any suggestion as to
what is a reasonable amount to add? I am thinking that a visit to the local
health food store to get a bean or two is in order but not sure how much
extract (vanilla) to augment with.
  


Eric C. Brady 
Email: e-brady at uiuc.edu
Plan for the unexpected because the unexpected has plans for you. 


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:54:26 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: phenolics, etc

After over 15 years of homebrewing, I made a beer I cannot
stand.  It is loaded with medicinal and industrial strength
phenolics either due to a wild yeast, mutation in a sub-
culture, or contamination.  It was o.k. at Primary but after
secondary it was awful and after bottling for a month or so
it still was high in phenolics.  Anyone offer any hope that
the phenolics will dissipate over time (years) or should I
just trash the 2 cases of beer--something that is very 
hard for me to do!

The second question I posted last week and got no responses.
Has anyone tried a high temperature mash (162 F) and then
got high F.G. with about 50% attenuation at bottling.  
Reducing sugar test showed fairly low residual sugar.  Would
like to hear other people's experiences.

Andy from NC


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:02:33 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: Primary Temps

Hmm...well, do you not have air conditioning? I live in New Orleans,
where it gets quite hot (and humid)...temps get close to around 100...but,
it never gets above 78 F in my house.....

Maybe bring the carboys indoors?
:-)

Kelly

On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:20:46AM -0400, after pounding the keys randomly, 
David Brandt came up with....
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 21:27:18 -0700
> From: David Brandt <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
> Subject: Primary temps
> 
> I live in a town where the temps can get past 100 degrees in the summer.
> That puts a crimp into summer brewing around here. I put my carboy in a
> large Rubbermaid tub filled with water and add ice as needed to keep the
> fermentation temps down. This system still allows for some temp ranges I'd
> rather not have. I suppose I could baby it more with regular ice feedings
> and get really anal with a thermometer (come on...you know what I mean) but
> that's no fun. I'd be interested in hearing of methods some of you brewers
> out there use. I also see that there is an item on the market called a
> Fermenterator. Anyone use this?
> 
> David Brandt
> Cloverdale, CA 


- ------------------

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak.

- ------------------


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:00:03 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting

Nils asks about starting siphons with the two hole carboy caps and
infections.

I'm not a biologist, so it's really hard to comment on the risk of infection
from the human mouth.  But, I think it's safe to say that if you can avoid
blowing into your beer it would be a good idea.  I have two suggestions:

1)  If you are really hard over on using the carboy cap, you might want to
try using the gas from your CO2 tank instead of blowing in it - being VERY
careful to use a very low pressure and disconnect the gas source once the
siphon starts.  But if you don't have a CO2 tank......

2)  Bag the whole idea of the carboy cap and buy an Auto-Siphon.  This thing
is so simple and effective it should come standard in every homebrew kit.
At $10, it pays for itself if you only save one batch from infection.  Take
a look at one at http://shop.piwine.com/shopsite/prwc/product288.html.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice."



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:56:04 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Wyoming Hops

Len Safhay <cloozoe at optonline.net> writes:

>I've got a friend in central Wyoming who tells me he has hop vines all
>around his place that were planted over 50 years ago for shade. Many of
>his neighbors do as well; apparently it was common practice in the area.
>Any ideas what strains would have been planted there and then? Are there
>any hop strains that are <i>not</i> suitable for brewing? Any relatively
>easy/inexpensive way for me to find out their AA content? Also would 
>appreciate some advice on how to harvest and prepare them. Thanks 
>all.

Len Olson of Hopunion http://www.hopunion.com/ro.shtml spoke at 
MCAB-1 in Houston three years ago.  I asked him what hops were likely 
used in the US pre-WWII and earlier, and he told me that when they 
have tested old "wild" hops found throughout the country, they nearly 
always proved to be of the Cluster group.

Cluster is the archtypical old American hop, and the one I like for 
bittering (but not finishing) Classic American Pilsner, cream ales 
and other pre-pro styles.  It's flavor is reasonably neutral but has 
a characteristic flavor that has been described as "catty" (I don't 
know what this means) or black currant (this is how I find it).  I 
think this was especially noticeable in old Ballantine IPA in the 
60's and maybe even into the 70s.

I believe that Cluster has been improved over the years, so I would 
suspect that yours would be at the lower end of the 5.5-8.5% alpha 
acid that Garetz lists as typical.

There are links from Glenn Tinseth's hop page 
http://realbeer.com/hops/ on harvesting and drying hops.  I find that 
my garage attic is a great hop oast.  I put them on a large old 
window screen with a box fan blowing gently on them.  On a hot day, 
it must be 130F+ up there.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:57:10 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Electronic evaluation and smoking

And so the Bubble Wars have started. Well, I'm gonna come out in favour of
the bubble theory. It's just way too cool, and the guy that came up with it
deserves at least one vote for originality.

Ah well, onto our first letter from John Schnupp:

> Actually it's not that radical.  I saw a show on Tech TV this 
> weekend were they are developing a silicon "tongue" and 
> "nose".  Very interesting.  The implications to brewers could 
> be huge.

All I can say is, if electronic judges replace human ones, I just hope
someone remembers to program in a personality better than a certain
anonymous judge (no name or initials on the sheet) who recently judged an
entry of mine at the AWO Provincials. As far as I'm concerned, the word
"clumsy" is not an appropriate part of the vocabulary of a judge whose goal
is to provide informed and constructive criticism. I can think of no reason
for using the term other than to annoy the entrant and demonstrate what an
arrogant putz the judge really is. Just my little rant for the day.

On to this from the Beer Phantom:

> I think a good question before we get to far into the nuts 
> and bolts of 
> smelling is......do you smoke?  I can't think of a better way 
> to dull your 
> palette and your sniffer than smoking.  

Don't get me wrong, nobody is more offended by the noxious weed than me, but
there is considerable anecdotal evidence to suggest that some of the best
tasters in the world are smokers. This has been known in wine circles for
some time, and probably applies to beer tasters as well. Is this to say,
smoking does not dull the senses? Probably not, but it points out that some
people's tasting skills are so high, that even smoking leaves them at a
level far above many others. So, I don't think a blanket statement like this
is correct. It depends on the skill set you start with. It's like you or I
playing a round of golf with Tiger Woods. Your handicap keeps it
respectable, but he's still gonna beat you. Hmmm, just had a brilliant idea.
They've got machines for smoking cigarettes, and will soon have machines for
tasting beers. Maybe they should combine the two and quantify the effects
under rigid laboratory conditions. Or maybe we could just give the lab rats
a pack of smokes and some beer, and let them figure it out. I dunno. ;-)

And thanks to Jeff for posting that beer evaluation stuff. I have known
about things like that in the wine world for some time, but really wanted to
find one for doing beers. I have some familiarity with homemade examples of
this type of thing, and quite frankly, have found them wanting.  Now I just
have to talk our club into buying one (Hi, Ralph!).

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Sniffing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:11:04 -0700
From: Victor.E.Franklin at bankofamerica.com
Subject: RE: Primary temps



 -I suppose I could baby it more with regular ice
 -feedings and get really anal with a thermometer
 -??????. I'd be interested in hearing of methods
 - some of you brewers out there use.

David, I also live in a hot climate (Phoenix) we keep the house at 79-80;
not conducive to fermenting beer.  What I do is: A) fill the guest bath tub
with water. B) Add carboys. C) Soak a towel in water and drape over the
carboys. D) put a small circulating pump (purchased from fish store) in the
water and pump the into some small rubber tubes (Lowe?s) with holes poked in
the sides and the end plugged. This keeps the towels nice and wet and adds a
nice soothing waterfall sound to keep the yeast happy while they work. E)
Add a small fan and it lowers the temperature even more.
I don't know the exact amount this lowers the temp but it has worked well
for me. (About 10 degrees I think)

Regards,

Victor Franklin




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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:36:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Primary temps


Dvid asked about methods of keeping the primary fermentation temp down 
in 100F weather.

David, the only way I know to make it significantly better that your
water bath is to use and extra refrigurator (or freezer) with an
external thermostat set at the temp you want to use.  I currently 
have a Kolsch in the primary at 56F using this method.  

I commonly use this for lagers, but sometimes you need to control
temps for other beers too.

I realize this may not be an option for anyone that does have the room
for the extra frig.  But it does help some brewers.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:42:56 -0700
From: Victor.E.Franklin at bankofamerica.com
Subject: RE: Lager/beer fridge & Beer storage temps



I would like to try my hand at lagering some beers. I need a cold place to
do this. The quandary is how to accomplish this.  Should I use an upright
refrigerator or convert a chest freezer? I like the idea of a chest freezer
because I could probably get 2 or 3 carboys in it at once, whereas with a
refrigerator I am limited to one at a time. I was once told it would
burn-out the freezer.
Question: for those who do use something for lagering, what do you use?  Can
I convert a chest freezer?  How would I do it?

Beer Storage temp:
There has been some discussion about warehouse temperatures and their
effects on beer taste. Can I store my kegged beer, long term, at 79-80
degrees without damaging it? Or do I need to use something (i.e. converted
chest freezer?) to keep the temp lower? Are certain styles of beer more
susceptible to damage?

Individual emails also welcome
Thank you

Victor Franklin
??but it's a dry heat?




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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:18:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com>
Subject: re: Carboy Caps for Syphon Starting

A filthy mouthed Nils recently said:

"I recently purchased one of those carboy caps with 2 pipes in the top.
You put the racking tube through one, & blow through the other to start the
syphon.  The only 2 batches I've used this cap with are the only 2 batches
I've had come out infected.  From what I remember, this was the only change
I made to my brewing process for my batches.  A friend said that with all
the germs in the human mouth, blowing into the cap might have been what
infected it.  Has anyone else seen problems with this type of cap?"

Nils, I use these caps to transfer beer from carboy to carboy or carboy to
keg all the time. The difference is I use CO2 to push things around. On
each cap I have a corny keg dip tube clamped to the middle opening on the
cap and on the other opening I have gas in tubes clamped. I then attach my
CO2 tank to the gas-in tube on one cap and another hose betwen the middle
tubes. I then adjust the middle tube on the pickup side to be just above the
yeast sediment and the middle tube on the outlet side to be just above the
bottom of the carboy. Then, I apply about 1/2 to 1 pound of CO2 pressure to
start the siphon and then back off the pressure to just maintain the flow.
Also, before I begin the transfer I purge the receiving carboy or keg with
CO2 by hooking the gas in line to the middle tube and letting it run with
about 1 psi for 10 minutes or so to remove the O2.

Just be very careful with the process. Never would I use my mouth to get
anywhere near beer that isn't coming from a mug :-)


- --
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:55:05 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Australian Barley Technical Symposium

Brewers

Just got this from Oz Craftbrewing Digest.  What a lineup of 
technical papers.  Just the titles make my head swim.  But I'll bet a 
few of you (Steve A?) will find some of them interesting.

Thanks to Reg in Oz for posting the URL.

Jeff

>From: "regbadgery" <regbadgery at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Australian Barley Technical Symposium
>
>Proceedings from the 9th and 10th are available online.  Range of
>technical articles concerning research into barley for brewing, feed,
>and food.
>
>http://www.regional.org.au/au/abts/index.htm
>
>cheers
>reg

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:16:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Bitter Beer...alcohol

Mac wrote about his bitter beer...

>How can you tell how much alcohol is in the beer? 
Seems like more than
>regular beers as far as I can tell.  Would a
hydrometer give me that
>reading?

If you don't have a hydrometer.  Get one.  Also,  buy
a book on beginning homebrewing and read it.  It will
save you a lot of time and worries.  It's too late to
know exactly what your alcohol percentage is, but you
can figure a rough estimate.  First you have to
extrapolate your orginal gravity.  One of the easiest
ways to think of it is in terms of gravity units
(GUs). On average each pound of malt extract that you
use will contribute 40 GUs to your beer.  At this
point volume is not an issue.  If you used a 6 lb can
of extract, this equals 240 GUs.  Now to get your
original gravity,  just divide this number by the
number of gallons of wort you had in your fermenter.  
Hypothetically then,  your Original Gravity would have
been (240/5=48 or 1.048).  To get your final gravity,
you will need to open a bottle of beer and let it
completely gas out and warm up to room temp.  With
your shiny new hydrometer, measure the final gravity
in Balling, not Plato.  Most hydrometers will give a
potential alchohol scale.  This should be rather
intuitive; as long as you know both OG and FG,  you're
in the ballpark.

Hope it all works out for you.
Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA




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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:04:41 -0400
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: smoking malt

Brian Gros asked about smoking malt.  I've been smoking my own malt for 
many years now, looking for the perfect smoked beer, (not to mention the 
biggest papers I can find), and have found that the best ones have had the 
malt smoked well away from the heat of the fire.  If using a Webber grill, 
try to avoid getting the malt too hot, which will impart a burnt flavor to 
it. The closer the malt is to the source the less time you should smoke it.

The Germans use Beechwood for their Rauchbiers, but I've found that most 
fruit trees work well.  In Florida and California Citrus wood is excellent. 
 Avoid using strong-flavored woods like Hickory or Mesquite unless you 
really want it to taste like barbeque.  Some people like to let the malt 
rest for a week after smoking and before mashing.  I think this depends on 
how hot the malt gets when smoked.  Cold smoked malt can be used right 
away.

Don't be discouraged if the finished product is too smokey.  This flavor 
and aroma will decrease with some aging.  It's probably better to err on 
the smokey side and let it settle out.

Ray Daniels and Geoff Larson wrote an excellent book on the subject, # 18 
in the Classic Beer Style Series through Brewers Publications, called, 
curiously enough, "Smoked Beers".

Jeff Gladish, Tampa FL.



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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:22:39 -0500
From: Mitchell Surface <msurface at myvine.com>
Subject: Opinions on quat wanted

I recently got hold of some quat tablets to use as a sanitizer. I wanted
to see what other people thought of quat instead of idophor so I went to
search the archives and I found opinions split about 50/50. Some people
seemed to love it and others hated it. I did seem to notice that the
more recent posts were the ones that didn't like it, which makes me
suspicious.

So, is there a generally excepted feeling about quat? Should I use it or
stick with idophor?

Thanks for your thoughts.

- -- 
Mitchell Surface N9OSL
Fort Wayne, IN USA

 ..every Man has a Property in his own Person. This no Body has any
Right to but himself.  The Labour of his Body, and the Work of his
Hands, we may say, are properly his. .... The great and chief end
therefore, of Mens uniting into Commonwealths, and putting themselves
under Government, is the Preservation of their Property.
	-- John Locke, "A Treatise Concerning Civil Government"



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---