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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  pH of saliva and airborne microbes (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  RE: Beeson's Pale Chocolate Malt ("Drew Avis")
  re: Zepto-sized brewing in a growler?? (Paul Kensler)
  RE: Rennerian calculator (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Rennerian calculator (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Ion/water softener and pH ("Michael Hackney")
  CIP Stuff... ("Dennis Collins")
  Hose length and foam, overnight mash ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Yeast Experiment (Jeff Renner)
  It's Baaaaackkk! (Pat Babcock)
  I'm new so I haven't read every post, so let's talk Rodenbach (jodysdad)
  Metal mesh lint trap filters (David Towson)
  Call For Judges - TRUB XIV (Jmcelver)
  Reverse Osmosis Boost Pumps? (mohrstrom)
  Steam powered rims ("Eric Stiers")


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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 07:27:50 +0200 
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: pH of saliva and airborne microbes

Hi,

Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com> wrote: >If manpower is not an issue,
have your crew chew
mouthsful (mouthfuls?) of raw barley and spit into the mashtun - saliva has
loads of amylase, doesnt it?>
I had problems with manpower. And I found out the pH of saliva is a little
to high (6.2-7.4). Mine is 6.7. So you have to mix the grain with some acid
(ascorbic acid :-)

I got an answer from a specialist about the number of airborn microbes:
>I presume you are referring to airborne microbes in indoor environments.
Indoor counts depend on two factors, ventiation dilution and source of new
contaminats.  Household counts are generally low (<50/cubic meter). Barn
counts with active animal are much higher, particularly in poultry barns
with feathers flying. Summer counts may be somewhat higher than winter in
temperate climates, but that is not a certainty.>

Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema
http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoorns.hopbier/



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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:23:59 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beeson's Pale Chocolate Malt

Nils Hedglin asks about Beeson's pale chocolate malt.  Nils, you can mail
order this malt from Paddock Wood.  They used to carry Paul's, and I'm not
sure of the difference, if any between Paul's and Beeston's.  But if they're
similar, this is a fabulous dark malt.  In conjunction with some de-husked
carafa and Gambrinus honey malt, it makes a wonderful porter.

Drew Avis, Member of Barleyment for Greater Merrickville, Ontario
http://www.strangebrew.ca


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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 05:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Zepto-sized brewing in a growler??

It might be worth mentioning that there are more than
one kind of container referred to as growlers...

I've seen the "plain" half-gallon jugs (either clear
or amber) - similar to what Gallo wine or apple juice
comes in - called growlers.  

I've also seen those nifty 2L German bottles with the
Grolsch-style gasketed ceramic swing top and aluminum
handles called growlers.

I've fermented in the former (meads, leftovers from
larger batches, splits to experiment with yeast,
etc.), and I've used them to buy beer from a brewery
or bring beer to a friend's house (filled straight out
of my taps) but I don't know that I would feel
comfortable carbonating in them.  They seem to be
pretty thin glass.  Some breweries provide really nice
plastic caps with vinyl seals; others provide the
plain ol' metal screw cap with that thin film on the
inside.  The metal ones seem to work when new for
bringing the beer home from a micro, but I've never
tried to re-use that kind.

I have naturally carbonated beer in the 2L
German-style growlers on several occasions with no
problem and would not hesitate to do so again.  They
are very thick glass and the closure is very secure. 
They are easy to clean and replacement gaskets for the
growler are available either through a local supply
store, or by swapping the growler at a local brewpub.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:18:09 -0400 
From: "Jones, Steve (Eis) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Rennerian calculator

Hi, all.

There have been a few posts lately lamenting the inaccessibility of Brian
Levetzow's Rennerian Calculator, which seems to have fallen into an inactive
state. 

Some of you may remember that Brian and I both independently developed a
javascript Rennerian Calculator a while back, and that I asked Pat to post
it on the HBD site mere hours before Brian did so. Subsequently it was
determined that mine had an error in it, such that by my accord, Phil Yates
was secretly living in Siberia, so rather than figure out the problem I
bowed to Brians' superior model and dumped mine.

However, I had made a copy of Brian's code (without his explicit permission)
and kept it, purely for my own analysis (you buy that, don't you?). Now,
since Brian's home page has become inactive, then moved, then become
inactive again, I will publicize the existence of it on the site that I
maintain. It is on the HBD server, so I don't think it is going anywhere
soon.

So, the url to the aforementioned Rennerian Calculator developed by Brian
Levetzow is http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/tools/rc.html

All the credit goes to Brian - I am merely the messenger. And as Jeff always
says, Rennerian Coordinates are really no proper substitute for a name and
city/state or province/country in your sig line. It's nice to know where
folks are located.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN, USA
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
Proud member of the American Homebrewers Association
Have a suggestion on improving the AHA? email me at stevejones at aob.org




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Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 09:20:35 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Rennerian calculator

"Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> wrote from an unknown 
location (but I seem to remember that it's Sacramento or thereabouts):

>[I'd stick my Rennerian Coordinates in here, but the link I have for
>the calculator is broken.]

You used to be able to get to it from the FAQ but there doesn't seem 
to be a link there.  Pat?

At any rate, it's at http://hbd.org/rennerian_table.shtml.

But more important is to include your location.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:41:00 -0400
From: "Michael Hackney" <mhackney at micromationsciences.com>
Subject: Re: Ion/water softener and pH

Jeff:

For the most part I only brew ales.  I did get the water test done
and here's the results:

pH - 6.53
Chloride - 146 mg/L  ( I'm not sure this parameter matters in brewing )
Sodium - 169 mg/L

The sodium level is high since the recommended limit is 50.0 mg/L, but I'm
not sure how this will effect my beer, other then accentuate the hop
bitterness maybe.  Is CaCl2 work the same as gypsum, and is there a way to
determine how much I need to add?

Thanks
Michael Hackney

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
To: Posting Address Only - No Requests <homebrew at hbd.org>
Cc: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at charter.net>; Michael Hackney
<mhackney at micromationsciences.com>
Date: Monday, October 07, 2002 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: Ion/water softener and pH


"Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> wrote:

>Michael Hackney has recently moved from a city water supply to a well and
>wonders if pH paper is adequate to check the pH of the water for
adjustment.
>
>The pH of the water is irrelevant as the calcium, and to some extent the
>magnesium content, of the mash liquor (brewing water) and the grist makeup
>control the pH of the mash.
>
>If your water source is  a well ( as mine was when I lived in NJ)  and you
>soften it and ion exchange it ( as I did)  you should have no problem
except
>carbon dioxide in it.  A quick boil or air scrub should solve that problem
if
>you want to.
>
>I'd use the water ( which should be ion free)  as you get it and modify it
>with calcium for ales and the like.  For lagers, I wouldn't touch it. If
you
>insist, then add 20 ppm as calcium chloride.

I'm confused, Dave.  Michael says he softens his water, and I
presume, as you did, that it is softened by ion exchange, not by
reverse osmosis.  Ion exchange softeners.

For those who don't know (Dave does), this exchanges two sodium ions
for every calcium or magnesium ion (these are what makes water
"hard".  This makes the water "soft" - i.e., it makes good lather
with soap.  This is because calcium and magnesium ions in hard water
substitute for the sodium on the soap molecule, which makes the soap
insoluble, and if it can't go into solution, it can't clean.

Back to your message.  In your fourth paragraph above, Dave, you say
Michael should use his water "as you get it."  Do you mean as it
comes out of his well, or out of the softener?  Either way, it
doesn't make sense.  You seem to have jumped to ion-free RO water.
Did the HBD server steal some text again?

Michael - here's my advise.  Your ion-exhange softened water will
have no calcium (calcium is necessary for mashing) and lots of sodium
(which is bad for beer, although it doesn't affect the mashing
process).

Your well water may need treatment for brewing, but you should
probably get an analysis.  A water softener company or Sears can do
this for you if you tell them you are considering buying a softener.

My well water here in Michigan is moderately hard (calcium and some
magnesium) and relatively high in alkalinity.  It works fine as is
for dark and even copper-colored beers, but for all pale malt mashes,
it is too alkaline.  For these beers, I boil and decant, which
removes much of the alkalinity.  Since it also removes much of the
calcium, I also add either CaCl2 or CaSo4 (gypsum), depending on
style.

pH paper for the mash and runoff is a good way monitoring how your
brew is going and if the water is suitable for the style you are
brewing.

Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943




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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:38:51 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: CIP Stuff...

In the homebrew realm, on any particular subject, the opinions cover the
full spectrum - the lazy approach and the zealous approach - with each
saying that their approach works great.  Take sanitation for instance, I
read a subscriber letter in BYO about a year ago where a guy wrote in and
said he never bothered to sanitize anything and his beer was fine, then at
the other end there are people who sanitize their eyeballs before they even
look at their beer.  Both approaches claim success.  All this in saying,
regardless of the claims, what works for you is how you should do it.

On the Clean in Place thread, I tend to fall at the lazy end of the
spectrum.  I run a HERMS type system, however, none of it is hard piped -
there are QD's at every connection and nothing gets put away still
connected.  After mashout, I sparge through the pump and through the HERMS
coil into the mash tun.  After the sparge is complete, I figure that several
gallons of hot water through the pump, hoses, and through the coil during
the sparge was enough to rinse away anything meaningful that might be there.
For clean up, I basically just rinse everything out with water, shake off as
much water as possible, and let things air dry or wipe them out with a
towel.  I try very hard not to put anything away wet.  I think this is much
more important than how clean it is, especially for pre-boil procedures.
For me, I just can't see pumping cleaners through the system after every
brew.  I'm way too lazy and this simplified procedure works very well for
me.  Would it hurt?  Absolutely not.  In fact, about once a year, I will set
up my system and run PBW through it as a maintenance cleaning - and yes, I
do get some crud out during this process, but not much.  And I don't notice
a taste difference between the first beer out of the cleaned system and the
last beer out of the system before the yearly maintenance cleaning.  For a
lazy person like me, once a year sounds more attractive than every brew
session.

My whole point here is that people should know where to concentrate their
efforts in brewing.  This is a very labor intensive hobby and spending a
significant amount of time on a process that affects the beer out in the
second decimal place is not really justified in my opinion.  Is my beer
fine?  Of course, otherwise I would be running cleaners through my system
every time.  I'm not advocating that anyone change what they are currently
doing - you have to do what works for you, I'm just stating that there are
as many successful approaches for any brewing task as there are brewers.  My
philosophy is, get the biggest bang for your buck.  Find out which end of
the spectrum you tend to fall (lazy or zealous), and then balance that
against your beer taste threshold.  This is just one of those data points at
the lazy end of the spectrum claiming success.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".




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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:06:02 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Hose length and foam, overnight mash

Brewsters:

Over the many years I have read lots of stuff about the correct hose length to
prevent foaming of beer.  Frankly, I am unconvinced.

Primary to this issue is the fact that the pressure drop from corny keg to tap
is always the same and independent of the hose length, as the tap or business

Under non-flow conditions the pressure at the tap end of the hose is the same
as the keg.

A longer hose will just heat up the beer and increase the tendency to foam
IMHO.

Under flow conditions there will be a pressure drop per unit length along the
hose essentially proportional to the hose length, but the outlet ( where foam
formation occurs unless the inside of the hose is not smooth)  will still be
at atmospheric.

I suspect the formation of foam has more to do with the flow mechanics at the
valve than anything else, as a partially closed valve will often generate more
foam than a valve wide open.  Turbulence at the valve undoubtedly plays a big
part in the foaming.  so do whatever you can to reduce the turbulence ( bigger
valve, lower keg pressure, select a gate valve).

Does anyone have an actual set of numbers ( like foam volume per foot of hose)
to demonstrate or refute this apparent (to me)  momily?

- -----------------------------
Tom Karnowski mashed overnight at 144F and was surprised to find his beer
temprature say 158F and I'll bet you won't have this problem.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 10:32:29 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast Experiment

Rick Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com> of the Chicken City Ale Raisers in 
Murrayville, Georgia posted the results of his club's lager yeast 
'spurment.

Thanks for the post.  I have had good luck with WLP830 and with 
Weihenstephan 34/70, which is what I think 830 is, from other 
sources, so I suspect an infection as well.  Maybe some chickens**t?

Wyeast did a similar experiment for NHC2002 with all of their wheat 
and Belgian yeasts with a generic kind of a wheat and barley wort. 
Very interesting tasting.  Can't remember the results at this point, 
though, and who knows where my notes are.

Maybe 10 years ago our club did a similar experiment with 55 gallons 
of a basic ale wort brewed in a steam powered picoBrewing system and 
11 yeasts from YCKC.  The only thing I remember is that my wort was 
definitely infected with cooked cabbage smell.  I doubt that it was 
an infected yeast, but who knows where it came from.

This is a great club project.  I hope others will do it.  As Rick 
says, it's hard to draw conclusions from one test.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: It's Baaaaackkk!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

For some unfathomable reason or t'other, access to the Rennerian
Calculator had been removed from the HBD site. After querying
around as to why I might have done this, I have settled upon the
explanation that I must have restored the FAQ at some point from
an outdated copy, maliciously dropped into my webfarm directory
by malicious prohibitionist gremlins.

After making this shocking determination, I put the code back in
its rightful place to make the thing accessible from the FAQ
once again. All was to be right with the world once again!Then,
to my utter astonishment, I find posts in the queue once again
mourning its loss! How can this be?! Well, my research has shown
that I had updated an outdated file in the production directory!
Those same malicious gremlins again. 

In any case, my apologies for its long absence, and for the
apparent lack of speed in getting it back on the site, but I had
to be sure that I had no records of either the original script's
author or Brian Levetzow requesting its removal. And then, of
course, I screwed up the site update...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie





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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:24:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: jodysdad at starchefs.com
Subject: I'm new so I haven't read every post, so let's talk Rodenbach

After much tireless research into the brewing of Rodenbach, I have become 
discouraged.  It appears that reproducing a similar product at home would 
be an enormous undertaking.  The blend of yeasts, aging for years in 
barrels, blending.  I might as well attempt to produce a bottle of '61 
Petrus.  As I am a huge fan of Rodenbach's beers, this distresses me to no 
of techniques, yeasts, etc. has anybody tried and how well did you fare?  
Thanks a bunch.


Michael from Columbus




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Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:46:00 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Metal mesh lint trap filters

Following my recent post about false bottom materials, I received an 
offline query concerning availability and physical appearance of the 
rolled-up metal mesh lint traps I use as a "final filter" under the false 
bottom.  In hopes that others may have an interest in this information, I 
am posting it here.  I should have added a caution that these lint traps 
usually have a coating of oil that I believe to be a remnant of the 
manufacturing process, and this oil must be removed by cleaning with a 
detergent.  Running the unrolled lint trap through a dishwasher works nicely.

Metal mesh lint traps are widely available in grocery, hardware and home 
improvement stores (e.g., Home Depot).  One common brand is "Helping Hand", 
and you can see a picture of the package at 
http://www.faucetqueen.com/detail.asp?ItemNum=01000 .  The photo shows two 
traps rolled-up like condoms.  If you picture in your mind a condom made of 
woven metal mesh, that's exactly what the trap looks like when 
unrolled.  You can see a drawn illustration at 
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/solutions/article/0,13422,211673,00.html .

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 19:39:16 EDT
From: Jmcelver at aol.com
Subject: Call For Judges - TRUB XIV

Mark Your Calendar!

On Saturday November 2, 2002 the Triangle Unabashed homeBrewers will hold our 
14th annual homebrew competition in Raleigh, NC.  

If you wish to participate as a judge, please email the Director Of Judging, 
John McElver, at jmcelver at aol.com.  If you need overnight accommodations, 
please let us know.  Lunch will be provided for judges and stewards.

If you wish to enter the competition, details and forms can be found at 
http://hbd.org/trub/

Please forward this email to persons you know may be interesting in judging, 
stewarding or entering TRUB XIV.

Thanks and many hoppy brews!


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Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:47:13 -0400
From: mohrstrom at core.com
Subject: Reverse Osmosis Boost Pumps?

Several brewers in this area were interested in a bulk buy of RO units from
a supplier.  One aspect that seemed to kill the deal was the requirement of 
high water supply pressure for good efficiency across the membrane.  For 
instance, my pump setpoints are 30/50 PSI.  IIRC, 70-80 PSI was optimum.

Does anyone use a boost pump to supply their RO unit?  Any advice?  Any
bad (or great) experiences with Brand (X,Y,Z) system?

Expiring minds wanna know ...


Mark in Kalamazoo


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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:30:38 -0500
From: "Eric Stiers" <ewstiers at chorus.net>
Subject: Steam powered rims


Hi all-

A friend and I are in mid-process of building a RIMS system with a pair
of jacketed stainless 20 gal mash/boil vats that he got from our
workplace in exchange for giving the boss a six-pack of homebrew <insert
evil grin here>. These vats are great for mashing since the jacket acts
like insulation, so one of them can be put to use directly. Making a
boil vat out of the other one however is a bit tricker since we can't
just put it over a propane burner and expect to heat the wort with any
kind of reasonable efficiency, again due to the jacket being a good
insulator. 

One thing we are considering is running a steam line into the jacket of
the boil vat; it has three openings that could be used for steam input,
vent, and condensate drain. I'm not a steam engineer, but I did take a
couple of physics classes in school and on the surface this looks pretty
do-able. After searching the archives here and the web in general
however, I have yet to really find anyone who is doing something similar
to this scheme. Does anyone on the list have any
experience/suggestions/links that they'd be willing to share? 

Thanks in advance,
Eric Stiers
Madison, WI
 



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