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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Hop growing (Norm Hardy)
  Re:  Brewing to Share!!! (techentin)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #412 (May 04, 1990) (Spencer W. Thomas)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #412 (May 04, 1990) (Spencer W. Thomas)
  Re: Imitation of "Commercial" Beers (Len Reed)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #412 (May 04, 1990)  (pyt)
  Re: Pete Soper on Aluminum (John Polstra)
  vienna malt vs. munich malt (GIBSON)
  Re: Brewing to Share (Andrius Tamulis)
  Aluminum (Jay H)
  Aluminum (Doug Roberts)


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Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Thu, 3 May 90 22:00:44 PDT
From: hplabs!polstra!norm (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Hop growing

In Seattle my hops are healthy and climbing.
One of the Hallertauers is up to 10 feet already.  The rest are 2-3 feet.

They seem to work better climbing string than wood poles.  I stake a piece of
wood into the ground, secure the string and tie it to the top of the pole.
The hops need little training to get wrapped up around the string.  From the
top view they wrap clockwise; or another way to think of it is that they
"follow" the sun each day.

This year I have set four 10ft poles in rectangular arrangment, with four
support beams along the top.  Every 8 inches of the beams has eyelets to 
attach strings both length and width wise.  The hops will then be free to
meander along the top of this thing and allow a nice place of shade.

Oh, the top beams are in a 10 ft by 4 ft rectangle.  

Four hops failed to come up this year.  Six survived.  I thinned out each one
so that no more than 3 shoots from any one plant grow.  

Norm,   in Seattle


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Date: Fri, 4 May 90 08:21:43 CDT
From: techentin at Mayo.edu
Subject: Re:  Brewing to Share!!!

Enders <enders at plains.NoDak.edu> writes:

>  So, I'm wondering what the collective feeling of the net is on
>  brewing an ale (or steam beer) that is drinkable by the 
>  BudCoorsMiller fans, but is an example of something better, 
>  something different.

I tried brewing an American Pilsner once with a very light color, light 
hopping and light body.  It didn't turn out very well, probably due to 
an infection.  I understand that the lighter beers are more likely to 
have this kind of problem.

A little reflection led me to the conclusion that I don't really want to 
brew anything like BudMillobe anyway.  It's pretty cheap to buy, and 
doesn't really warrant the effort required to brew it.

My time and energy is going to be invested in brewing beers that *I* 
like to drink.  Anybody who makes remarks about "Brake Fluid" is welcome 
to keep drinking that Wimpy Pasturized ___________ (fill in the blank) 
to their hearts content.  My homebrew is reserved for people who can 
appreciate it.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Techentin                              Internet: techentin at Mayo.edu
Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN, 55905 USA             (507) 284-2702
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:  Fri, 4 May 90 09:49:25 EDT
From: Spencer W. Thomas <spencer at dip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #412 (May 04, 1990)

I dunno.  The version I've got seems to work fine.  Of course, it's not 
accessible right now, since it's on my dead disk.

=S

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Date:  Fri, 4 May 90 10:01:04 EDT
From: Spencer W. Thomas <spencer at dip.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #412 (May 04, 1990)

	>    2.  The amount of aluminum that you get from using aluminum cookware
	>    is negligible.  You get far more aluminum from a single Tums (or
	>    other antacid tablet) than you get from a year of using nothing but
	>    aluminum cookware.

Ahem.  Tums has NO aluminum in it.  It is Calcium Carbonate.  That's it.
Now, if you had said Maalox or Digel, you would be right.


=Spencer (spencer at eecs.umich.edu)

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Date: Fri, 4 May 90 10:27:44 EDT
From: Len Reed <lbr%holos0 at gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Imitation of "Commercial" Beers

"Andy Wilcox" <andy at mosquito.cis.ufl.edu> writes, in #410:
>Just for the sake of curiosity (isn't that what
>homebrewing is all about!) I'd like to try and
>make either a "Dos Equis" or "Fosters" type beer.
>I suspect that both of these beers are lagers.
>Any recipies appreciated!

Dos Equis (XX) is a Vienna-style lager, which is an amber beer made from lightly
roasted lager malt.  I'm going to try a XX tomorrow using light Munich
malt (10 degL), Hallertauer hops, and Wyeast Bravarian yeast.  I don't know
if the Mexicans use any adjuncts; I'm not going to.  We'll see how
it goes.

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Date: Fri, 04 May 90 09:29:36 PDT
From: pyt at hprvlc0.hp.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #412 (May 04, 1990) 
Full-Name: Pierre-Yves Thoulon

> How do YOU deal with introducing homebrew to
> the *unwashed masses*?

Well, I converted a guy from Coors light to my stuff...
I had him try a bitter, a porter and a wheat beer.
I don't like my beer to be too bitter, so I generally use hops that are
low in alpha acids (5 to 7%) (Hallertauer, Cascasde, Saaz,...), and use
1.5oz for 5 gallons. That's what seduced him mostly.

For what my experience is worth...
Pyt.

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Date: Fri, 4 May 90 09:37:19 PDT
From: hplabs!polstra!jdp (John Polstra)
Subject: Re: Pete Soper on Aluminum

I knew I'd regret fanning the embers of the aluminum controversy again :-(

In HBD #412, Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com> writes:
> John Polstra writes:
> >    2.  The amount of aluminum that you get from using aluminum cookware
> >    is negligible.  You get far more aluminum from a single Tums (or
> >    other antacid tablet) than you get from a year of using nothing but
> >    aluminum cookware.
>
> Seeing as how you've gone out on a limb, I'll join you and we can try
> out this saw I brought.

Well, actually, it was UC Berkeley that went out on the limb.  I was
just paraphrasing their article as well as I could remember it.

> You have forgotten the drastic difference in pH between normal foods
> and wort.

As has already been pointed out in this forum, wort is much less acidic
than many foods, e.g., tomato sauce.  Also, wort is not cooked for as long
as many sauces and soups.

> What does the inside of your pot look like above and below the high
> water mark? Is it shiny below and the usual dull color of oxidized
> aluminum above?

Mine looks pretty much the same above and below.

> And I suppose that the aluminum compound you get from cooking with
> aluminum is the same compound as found in Tums ...

Well of course it's not the same compound that is found in Tums.  If it
were, my homebrews wouldn't cause hangovers :-).

> ... (with very tight chemical bonds)?

Do you have information I don't about the nature of the chemical bonds in
Tums?  Table salt (NaCl) could be said to have very tight chemical
bonds.  But when it is dissolved in water, it breaks down easily into
the component ions, Na+ and Cl-.  If my rusty memory of chemistry serves
(now I *am* going out on a limb), the breaking of chemical bonds and the
consequent dissociation into component ions is practically the
*definition* of "going into solution".

> But it is interesting to read that you taste no difference.

I didn't say that.  I said I haven't noticed any off flavors/aromas that
seemed to be related to the aluminum.  Neither did numerous judges in
various competitions.

I've never done an A-B comparison of identical brews boiled in aluminum
vs. stainless steel.  Maybe I could taste the difference then.  Maybe
not.

> Others have said the impact on beer flavor is drastic.

I have never heard *anybody* say that the impact was "drastic".  The
warnings I have heard and read were more along the lines of, "boiling
in aluminum will subtly alter the flavor of the beer in a negative
way." I'll accept that without argument, and you may recall that in my
original posting I began, "Yes, stainless steel is better than aluminum
for brewing beer."  I'd rather have stainless steel, but the fact that I
don't hasn't caused me any real problems.

My argument, on which I do not waver, is that the effects from boiling
in aluminum are either nonexistent or so minor as to be negligible for
practical homebrewing purposes.  As I wrote before, "aluminum is not
*that* bad."

My advice:  If you already have an aluminum pot, use it and don't
worry.  If you can't afford stainless steel, buy aluminum and don't
worry.  Direct your efforts and dollars toward the many more important
aspects of brewing, such as:  sanitation; obtaining the freshest
ingredients; proper balance between malt and hops; appropriate water
treatment for the style of beer you are brewing; fermentation
temperature control; sparging technique; etc., etc., etc.

 -  John Polstra               jdp at polstra.uucp
   Polstra & Co., Inc.        practic!polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Seattle, Washington USA    ...{uunet,sun,pyramid}!practic!polstra!jdp
   (206) 932-6482

PS - One more thing:  wort boiled in aluminum is less likely to scorch.
That is why the best stainless-steel pots are clad with aluminum on the
bottom (outside).


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Date: Fri, 4 May 90 10:55 MST
From: GIBSON at rvax.ccit.arizona.edu
Subject: vienna malt vs. munich malt

Could I interrupt the great Al debate for a simple question?  Can someone
out there tell me the difference between Munich and Vienna malts? I've
seen Munich described in at least cursory detail in books by Papazian and/or
Burch, but never Vienna. Oops, I hear a chain saw starting, better get out
of this here tree!  Ken Cornett

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Date: Fri, 4 May 90 14:15:51 CDT
From: Andrius Tamulis <tamulis at dehn.math.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Brewing to Share


	In case you forgot, the orginal posting inquired how to brew beer
for the Great Unwashed Non-Beer-Drinking Masses, specifically the Coors-
Miller-Bud crowd. On a slightly tangential note, I've served beer to people
who claim to hate beer, and the response I got was "I hate beer, but this
is good", from my very first batch to the present (OK, the present happens
to be my very second batch of beer, but I think that makes my point even 
more). So, it may be that the only unsalvageable beer drinkers may be those
who drink cheap beer, while those who don't drink it at all can appreciate
a good brew.
						Andrius

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Date: 04 May 90 21:49:47 EDT
From: Jay H <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Aluminum

To the person who gave that rather confusing discussion about tomato
 pH, wort pH etc.. This is a rather dubious argument.
 To introduce aluminum flavors into one's beer one would not have 
 to create pits in the pot by acid dissolution of it.
 Having done Dr. Beer seminars fo r2 years now I will attest to
 the sinsitivity of the palate (and to my inability to type well)
The human palate is sensitive to some substances at a few (7-10)
 part per BILLION (as in billions and billions of Carl Sagans)
 I don't know the exact sensitivity to aluminum but I'm SURE it
 is well short of pitting levels.

 To those who say they have brewed lots of batches and never tasted
 aluminum in them. Sure you know what you're looking for???
 One of the key reasons to do Dr. Beer seminars is that flavors
 are very subtle and lack other stronger perceptual cues (like
 sight) which help to clearly identify the substances. It is only
 through practice that most people are able to uniquely discern
 a wider range of substances. Practice meaning side by side 
 somparison of samples with and without the tainting flavor.
 If you've always brewed in aluminum you're desensitized to it
 by now. Unless you have the same beer with and without it is 
 incredibly difficult to isolate the aluminum flavor.

 My personal opinion is that switching to stainless did have an
 effect on elmininating metallic flavors. Perhaps doing a split batch
 in two pots stainless and aluminum utilizing equivalent procedures
 and the same yeast culture would allow isolation of the difference,
 though it would be hard to be 100% certain there were no unaccount-
 able factors this might help to highlight the difference.

 - Jay H
  (PhD. Beer = Dr. Beer)


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Date: Sun, 6 May 90 00:03:44 MDT
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Aluminum

I've used an aluminum canning pot for five years, now. Originally, I
used it to make extract recipes; now, I mash in it. I can vouch for
the fact that _no one_ has ever been able to attribute any off flavor
in my beers to the pot.

Another poster's message about the wort ph being 5.4 _is_ the reason
that aluminum is not a problem for brewing beer.  Ph 5.4 is simply not
acidic enough to dissolve measurable (accept with a mass spec, or
other suitable device) amounts of aluminum during the short brewing
period. I will be most interested in seeing Dan Krus' AAS analysis
results on aluminum content. (Be sure to take a baseline measurement
of your tap water, Dan.)

BTW, Pete: The Aluminum in a TUMs _is_ the same as the aluminum in
your pot, after the TUMs has been dissolved in your stomach (ph < 3.0,
if I remember correctly).

- --Doug

================================================================
Douglas Roberts                |
Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything
Box 1663, MS F-609             |  except temptation.
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545   |  ...
(505)667-4569                  |Oscar Wilde
dzzr at lanl.gov                  |
================================================================

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #413, 05/07/90
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