---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Help clarify what fraction of starter to pitch. ("Michael J. Westcott")
  RE. Autolysis in secondary (Thomas Rohner)
  Dry Yeast (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Hop Pellet Degradation (blutick)
  Tripel Stout (darrell.leavitt)
  Beer Consulting ? ("Kenneth Peters")
  Alcohol & Anxiety (David Perez)
  Re: Yeast autolysis in secondary (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Dry yeast is a joke (Donald and Melissa Hellen)
  Re: Hop Pellet Degradation (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Lost brew in the boiler (David Towson)
  Re: Lost Brew in the Boiler (Bob Sheck) (Todd Goodman)
  Re: Direct Fired Mash Tun with a False Bottom (Todd Goodman)
  Re: Dry Yeast is a joke (Bill Wible)
  Source for Saf Lager yeasts in US ("H. Dowda")
  Help, Need Insulating Coating (Not Beer Related) ("Pete Calinski")
  Dry Yeast is a Joke (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ryncd=20Gweyth?=)
  Re: Chronic Anxiety (Joe Murphy)
  reusing yeast,..and yeast count... (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: RO Water ("Asher Reed")
  Don't make this (darrell.leavitt)
  Medicine ("Mike Maag")
  That last bit of kettle wort ("Mike Maag")
  THE BUFFALO THEORY (Pete Limosani)
  Re: Wort Reclamation Survey/Lost Brew in the Boiler ("Greg Collins")


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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:26:39 -0700
From: "Michael J. Westcott" <westy at commspeed.net>
Subject: Help clarify what fraction of starter to pitch.

I guess I'm looking for some insight as to how much
of a starter to pitch and when.  I've been making 1 liter
starters for some time using Wyeast smack packs or White
labs tubes.  I usually time the starter to be coming off high
krausen on brewday.  My usual procedure is to swirl the starter
bottle and add the complete contents.  Today, I noticed a
significant thick yeast sediment in the starter bottle after I had pitched
and wondered if I missed an opportunity to have pitched much more yeast.
At high krausen or right after, should most of the solution above the yeast
be pitched and then all of the sediment swirled with the remaining bottom
1/3 of the wort and then pitched?  Is there any problem pitching all of the
precipitated yeast?  Any comments would be appreciated.  Thanks, Mike.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 12:52:09 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: RE. Autolysis in secondary

Hi Adam
if you can lower the temp. to or below 60 F i would not worry.
Since you already removed most of the yeast, you should be ok.
We leave our beers in the fermenter for 2 weeks, then transfer it
to a bottling tank add a maltose solution for carbonation and
bottle it.
In my beginning years i once had a porter in the secondary for
5 weeks, before i had the time to bottle. I was a great beer.
But i already had a temp. controlled freezer then.

Thomas


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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 13:15:21 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Dry Yeast

Hi All
my first book i read was the "don't worry" one.
My first beer was a prehopped kit.
But my first yeast was a Wyeast (liquid) as i read in the 
aforementioned book.
Since then i pretty quickly went to allgrain, because i cant get
good extracts at a reasonable price around here. I brew 12 gal and had
to do stepstarters from small Wyeast smackpacks. Of course i repitched
it for 2 or 3 times. But it still is a hassle. I then figured out to
brew beers, i can get the yeasties from one of our local
breweries. But they all have (decent) bottom fermenters.
Then i got a one pound DCL sample. I was amazed how good it was.
Since then i even have a dry lager-strain for backup, and brewed a
wonderfull double-bock with it.
So it may or may not be true, that kits are still shipped with
low quality dry yeast. But there certainly are superb dry yeasts
around. I tried DCL, but i guess Lallemand and others can do it as
well. As Jay wrote, the only limit is choice.
But for most HB's pitching rate is more of a problem. And better
use a proper amount of rehydrated dry yeast, then a stepped-up
infection.

Thomas


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:27:05 -0600
From: blutick at juno.com
Subject: Re: Hop Pellet Degradation

Nils Hedglin asked about degradation of hop pellets:

>I'm getting ready to do another batch, & was wondering how long hop
pellets are 
>good.  I've kept them in the freezer in a vacuum sealed bag (or at least
in as much 
>vacuum as a Foodsaver vacuum sealer can do). Unfortunalely, they are
from 5/01 
>& 8/01.

I've been storing my hops, both pellet and whole, vacuum bagged and
frozen ever since my sister 
gave me a Foodsaver for Christmas about four years ago. Nifty gadget. In
my experience, there 
has been no apparent loss of bittering or aroma with storage times up to
two years.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX 


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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 09:10:20 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Tripel Stout

Andy;

  I also like sweet stouts, and this one came out real good to my palate.
I called it a "Jelly-Bean Tripel Stout" (sort of stupid name) in that 
instead of using candi sugar , as a tripel calls for, I used 5 oz of Jelly 
Beans.  I think that if I were to do it again, I'd use the Candi 
sugar...but my wife was cleaning out our son's room and found a good bag 
of beans so I thought I'd use them to boost the gravity a bit.

 I had slurry (belgian and trappist vials) that had been used 2 times 
already, and wanted to make a tripel...but I also wanted to make it darker 
and more in the direction of an Imperial Stout,...I suppose that one could 
call it a Belgian Tripel Stout...

 ANyway, for what it is worth, here is the recipe:

6lb Canada Maltings 2 row
 .75 lb Fawcett's Brown Malt
3 lb carapils
1.25 lb Fawcett's Dark Crystal
 .5 lb Malted Oats
 .5 lb Special B
2 lb wheat
5 oz Jelly Beans (I'd use double this weight in Belgian Candi sugar if I 
had it)
1.5 lb Roasted Barley (added when recirculating and sparging began)

1 rest at 158F for about 60 minutes, mashout at about 170F .

2 hour boil, adding about 1/2 cup of Lactose (sugar of milk) near the end.

I used 1 oz unknown AA homegrown hops (I assumed about 4.5% per oz) at the 
start of the last 60 minutes,  1/4 oz of same at 30, 1/4 oz of same at 
last 15)

First runnings were 1.080
boil gravity (with the jelly beans) was 1.061
Original gravity (after 2 hour boil) was 1.070
gravity going into secondary was 1.032
final gravity was the same...(I wanted it to go lower,..but it didn't 
cooperate)
%abv was about 5%

I think that , were I to try this again, and I will, I'd use the belgian 
sugar, and boost the alc content just a tad....

The taste, by the way , is very chocolaty, sweet, yummy.

I don't know, but think that that high a final gravity should/ could be a 
concern, and would welcome comments from others who have some insights 
into why, with that much good slurry, and keeping the correct fermentation 
temperatures, it still was so high?  Perhaps the amt of carapils, brown, 
and dark crystal malts added huge unfermentables...

Happy Brewing! and a big thanks to the Janitors!




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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 09:00:18 -0600
From: "Kenneth Peters" <kpeters6 at cox.net>
Subject: Beer Consulting ?

A post that I recently read in the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup certainly hit
home with me. Among other topics in the post, the author suggested that there
was a need for "Beer Consultants" to evaluate beer for a small fee ($5 -$10
per bottle). I forget exactly what prompted his thoughts, but I am located in
a remote area and I know from posts I have seen here that there are others who
do not have access to local clubs or HBS. I have a great many excellent beer
books, but no matter how hard a author may try, I still cannot imagine what
certain tastes are like. Al Korzanas tries very hard in his book to illustrate
certain tastes via commercial beers, but still the effort falls short. In
fact, I don't have access to some of the examples that he sites. What does
yeast bite taste like? How about fruity, raisiney esters - this may sound very
descriptive but if one has no real-life example to relate to, the concepts are
impossible to comprehend. These are concepts that many (most) of you know like
the back of your hand. But if you have never had an identifiable experience,
then it hard to relate to. How would you explain the taste and heat of a
Jalapeno to someone who had never eaten any kind of pepper? Yes, competition
results could assist in this arena, but certainly not a well as an always
available consultant. I've been brewing for a little over one year now (all
grain), and have yet to meet anyone else who is a homebrewer. While most of my
beers have been very tasty and I'm mostly very happy with them, I have had
some that didn't taste at all like I expected or had a minor off taste from
the previous batch. I have no clue as to what these tastes are so how can I
discern what action I need to take to correct them? Hit and miss is not a
satisfying concept to me. Just because I am my only customer doesn't mean that
I don't want to strive to constantly improve my process and my product. I
think that this would be a great void for one or more of the mail-order HBS to
fill. After all, its people like me who provide a lot of their business. How
about it, anyone out there interested in becoming a Beer Consultant? Think
about it, I believe this would be a great service to the home community.
Thanks, Ken Peters
located in remote Oklahoma



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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 10:46:22 -0500
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: Alcohol & Anxiety

IMUSTWRITE asks about using alcohol to treat anxiety. Before I answer 
the question, I must say that I truly enjoy drinking great beer and 
sometimes I do drink too much (Like last night at our club meeting where 
we sampled about 30 different Stouts and Porters!!). But I also treat 
people who have substance abuse disorders and those with co-occurring 
substance abuse and mental health d/o. So, if you can wrap your mind 
around that incongruity, read on.

The simple answer is there are much better choices available to treat 
anxiety. Targeted psychotherapy and/or Benzodiazepines are much more 
reliable and effective. That being said, we all have at some time or 
another, experienced that proverbial "I need a beer" sensation. It 
usually occurs after a stressful event makes us feel tense or anxious. 
Alcohol will, in most people, reduce those feelings. But there are 
risks, such as Alcohol Dependence and conditioned anxiety.

If you have a true anxiety disorder then see a GOOD therapist (just like 
brewers and mechanics, there are good ones and bad ones) and leave the 
beer for it's wonderful, complex flavors.

Dave Perez
Gainesville, FL
Hogtown Brewers
Licensed Mental Health Counselor




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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:07:57 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast autolysis in secondary

"Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com> asks

>It is necessary to wait until the krausen has completely settled back into
>the beer before transferring to a secondary?
>
>I have a porter that was finished fermenting (ie. wasn't bubbling anymore),
>but still had a sizeable krausen.  I skimmed most of it off, collecting the
>yeast, and transferred to my secondary.  The krausen appeared again the next
>day and after a few days, started to fall back down.
>
>If I'm planning on leaving in the secondary for 3 weeks, should I worry
>about autolysis from the yeast that's still in the secondary?

I will confidently say that you will have no problem with autolysis 
in three weeks.  Your procedure is entirely within commercial and 
homebrewing norms.

When you say that there was no bubbling but still a kraeusen, I am 
puzzled.  The same CO2 production that produces kraeusen is what 
makes bubbles.  Perhaps you had a poorly sealing lid?

No matter, an air lock is really not necessary - you can judge 
whether fermentation has ceased (or has nearly) by looking at the 
surface of the beer.

I would try to minimize head space in the secondary if the beer is no 
longer producing CO2.  Not a big deal for three weeks, but it will 
help keep the beer in good shape.  I do this mainly by designing my 
beer so that it fills a carboy when racked.  If you have a CO2 tank, 
it helps to purge the secondary before racking and then purge any 
head space.  Small things, but they do help.

Remember to relax and have a homebrew.  Worry ruins beer.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:29:39 -0500
From: Donald and Melissa Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: RE: Dry yeast is a joke

Alan McKay wrote about the great selection of quality dry
yeasts that are available for the homebrewer. I'd like to
know of a source (preferably in the USA) where I can get DCL
K-97, S-189, and W-34/70. I can get S-23 and Safale (don't
like S-23 myself), but I can't find these others. Some I can
find on Paddock Wood's web site, but the K-97 I can't.

Does anyone know where I can get ALL of these, not just some
of them? (I realize that the S-189 is a repackaged product.)

Don



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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:35:19 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Hop Pellet Degradation

Nils Hedglin <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> wonders in Sacramento, CA

>how long hop pellets are
>good.  I've kept them in the freezer in a vacuum sealed bag (or at least
>in as much vacuum as as a Foodsaver vacuum sealer can do). 
>Unfortunalely, they are from 5/01 & 8/01.  No, that's not a typo, they're
>20 & 17 months old.  Using the ProMash software to determine AAU
>degradation, it looks like my 4.2% Hallertauer is about 2.7%.  Does this
>sound about right for the storage method?  Can I just use more of them,
>or have they gone totally bad?

I don't know about ProMash, but the industry specs on storage are for 
whole hops at 20C (68F).  Hop pellets keep longer than whole hops 
since oxygen is kept out by the compaction, and you've further 
removed air and kept them at freezer temperatures.  I suspect they've 
not degraded all that much.  I've had good luck with hand compressed 
whole hops in non-evacuated plastic bags in the freezer for upwards 
of a year, and I think you'll do much better, as long as the pellets 
are intact.

Still, I think fresh hops are best since the pros can package better 
than we can.  It may not be worth using old hops.  Fresh ones aren't 
that expensive.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:38:15 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Lost brew in the boiler

In HBD 4137, my reply to the subject query seems to have been zapped by the 
infamous "HBD line grabber".  What I got back was, "My guess is that you 
didn't add a hose or other extension to the outside bottom of the boiler", 
which makes no sense.

It was supposed to say, "My guess is that you didn't add a hose or other 
extension to the outside of the drain valve with the discharge end below 
the bottom of the boiler."

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:53:56 -0500
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Lost Brew in the Boiler (Bob Sheck)

* Bob Sheck wrote"
> "Greg Collins" <gmc123 at bellsouth.net> Asks
> 
> >I am trying to figure out some way to capture that last tad bit of brew
> >after a boil that my 15 gallon keg leaves behind in the bottom.
> 
> Really, you don't want to drain every drop out of the boiler, unless 
> you want to carry over the TRUB into your fermenter.

Bob, I boil in a converted keg with a false bottom installed (yes, a
false bottom in my boiler.)

I only use whole hops and when finished boiling I don't bother
whirlpooling at all, the hope on the false bottom act as a filter to
trap most of the hot break in the hops.

I pull from the bottom and leave very little in the boiler.

To Greg: you probably already did this, but make sure your hose
connected to the ball valve is well below the bottom of the keg.

Todd
Reassembling my brewery in Westford, MA


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:03:45 -0500
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Direct Fired Mash Tun with a False Bottom

I use a converted keg (SABCO with their false bottom) and I direct fire
it with no pump or recirculation (at this time, I plan to hard plumb my
pump to make it easier to recirc in the future.)  I do stir the mash
occasionally, but don't stir constantly (just to even out the temp so I
can get accurate temp measurements.)

I've never scorched a mash yet.

Now I use a natural gas burner on a commercial stove instead of a
propane burner and I'm certain it has a lower BTU output than a propane
burner.

Just another datapoint...

Todd
Putting the brewery back together in Westford, MA


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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:28:33 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Dry Yeast is a joke


>Sorry Bill, but when is the last time you actually tried dry
>yeast, and what kind was it?

Sorry to disappoint you, but:

First, I own a homebrew shop, and I'm probably more up to
date on the current dry yeasts that are available than
any of you are.  So lose the "here in the 21st century"
attitude right here, right now.  Don't tell me, I'll
tell you.  I'm not a child in your classroom.

Second, I used dry yeast myself as recently as November
12th, 2002, according to my records.  It was Munton's Gold.
It was brewed in a Munton's Gold kit.  These are supposed
to be superior kits, and the gold is supposed to their
superior yeast.

Occasionally, I do make the products that I sell myself,
for evaluation purposes, and I even follow the exact kit
instructions sometimes, too, to see how good or how bad
they are. 

The resulting beer was awful.  Phenolic as all heck.
I use PBW to clean.  I use Star San to sanitize, so
don't point to sanitation, and don't tell me I'm an idiot
who doesn't know how to sanitize a pail, carboy, airlock
and stopper.  I've been a homebrewer for just about 7
years now.   I'm a BJCP "Recognized" judge, just promoted.

I know it had to be the yeast.

I can't tell you how many times I get beers brought to
me for evaluation.  Always the same problem - phenolic,
like band aids and chloroseptic.  Always the same story,
always extract beers, made with dry yeast.  I talk to
people over and over, and they do clean and sanitize,
like me, even with the good stuff - PBW and Star San.
Doesn't matter whether they ferment in plastic or glass.

Time after time, I steer these people to liquid yeast,
and time after time, their beer consistently improves
1000%.

Yes, dry yeast is a joke.  Its no better today than it
was 10 years ago.  I said it, I'll say it again, and
I'll stand by it.

It's a free country, you can use dry yeast if you want
to, and you can drink phenolic beer if you that's what
you like.

Just don't give me any.

Bill




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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:23:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Source for Saf Lager yeasts in US

A fine Canadian home-brew supply is now offering the
more or less complete line of the dried 'Saf' lager
strains.  Is there a company in the US doing the
same???

Before the PC police get their shorts in their crack,
I am not engaging in xenophobic ravings(I even have a
Canadian friend). It's the shipping time.

Boycott Moosehead, buy Moose Drool.



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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 16:19:26 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Help, Need Insulating Coating (Not Beer Related)

Pardon me for the off topic post but I know there are a lot of very
knowledgeable people out there.  I hope someone can help me.

I need a coating to insulate an electrode.  The electrode is placed in a
mildly conducting liquid but I don't want any current to flow between the
liquid and the electrode.  The coating must be very thin.

I have tried the following, all of which were unsuccessful:

Varnish
Super Glue (I have seen the vapors from super glue ruin electrical contacts)
Nail Polish
Auto Touchup Paint

All seem to conduct in my test fixture.  The test fixture consists of a
piece if copper wire coated with the substance under test.  One end is left
bare and connected to one lead of a digital ohmmeter. The other end of the
coated wire is immersed in tap water.  The other lead of the ohmmeter is
also immersed in the tap water.  No matter which of the substances I me
testing, the meter will read between 600k ohms and 20k ohms.

I even tried a piece of transformer wire which is coated with a varnish type
substance.  It also indicated current flow.  (I scraped one end bare and
connected the meter to it. I then placed the middle, fully coated section of
the wire in the water.)

In every case, if I touched the coated surface with the other lead of the
meter outside of the water, no current flowed. From this I assume the
coating itself did not conduct.

So what is happening?

Are there microscopic imperfections in the coating that allows water to
contact the electrode?

Is there some sort of electrolysis effect?

Is there a better substance that would form a very thin coating?

(As a test, I am preparing to try a substance called "Plastic Coat".  I am
certain it is too thick for my application.  I just want to find something
to stop the current flow.)

Thanks in advance and sorry again for the off topic post.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************






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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:31:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ryncd=20Gweyth?= <bluebelz2002 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Dry Yeast is a Joke

As you Americans say:

That statement is absolute bovine defecation!

Isn't the chap who posted originally an actual toft in
the judging club you have?  Shame! What ignorance! 
Over here he would likely be a Tory.



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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:10:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Murphy <ladislavsipos at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Chronic Anxiety

> Could a small amount of beer be safely used to help control
> chronic anxiety?  

"Chronic anxiety" is a definable psychological affliction, and
needs to be approached with professional care. Someone who is
having trouble coping with day to day life because of
not-fully-rational fears needs qualified assistance, not the
opinion of some guy on the Internet (i.e. me). 

On the other hand, there are many ways to adjust your lifestyle
to relieve some non-chronic but repetative anxiety, and I think
making (and drinking) your own beer can be a pleasant component
of that. 

And of course, anyone on a prescription medication should talk
to their doctor about the safety of alcohol consumption.

Many alcoholic beverages appear to have health benefits in
moderation. I also think that people who can drink in moderation
tend to have other healthy attitudes towards life.

But I'm not aware of anyone who can say drinking made a problem
go away, or helped them understand a problem better. I am aware
of people (including myself) who can say drinking too much out
of fear or depression just made the problem worse. 

I think that brewing is a great way to develop a moderate
attitude towards alcohol, exactly like cooking is a good way to
pay attention to your diet. But I can't tell you to "control
chronic anxiety" with beer any more than I can suggest you cure
double pneumonia with chicken soup.

I wish you peace,
 -Joe Murphy



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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:14:47 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: reusing yeast,..and yeast count...


Steve Alexander (on 30 Dec 2002) suggests using 170 billion viable yeast 
cells for Ales (assuming a 12 Plato/ about 1.050, I believe, specific 
gravity wort).  Furthermore, he states that WhiteLabs tubes, if somewhat 
fresh, have up to 60 billion viable cells.

Now suppose that one uses 2 vials of fresh Whitelabs Ale yeast for a low 
gravity ale (say 1.04 or so), then reuses the yeast cake for a 
proportionately larger brew.  What is the range of increase in yeast cells 
at the end of fermentation ?  Is this now within the range?  And ,  
suppose that one uses the yeast cake a third time...how large might the 
population become, and therefore, how high could the wort gravity become 
before one is again under-pitching?

I reuse yeast 3 times, and generally do find that the final product is 
much better with the second and third use of the 2 vials initially 
pitched, but I wonder if anyone has calculated the hypothetical 
numbers..either of yeast cells, and / or of the gravity that they could 
reasonably 
be expected to ferment?

Happy New Year, and Happy Brewing!
 ..Darrell






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Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:25:58 +0000
From: "Asher Reed" <clvwpn5 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RO Water

>
>Asher - You wrote "I believe the only water purifiers that will remove
>fluoride from water are
>distillers and reverse osmosis filters.  You don't want to use water that
>has been treated to either of these methods for brewing."
>
>And I ask...why not?  I use 9 parts RO water and 1 part tap water for all 
>my
>lagers
>and 50/50 for my ales.  Pretty good beer here using up to 90% RO water.
>
>Bill Frazier
>Olathe, Kansas

You could use 90/10 or 50/50 distilled water and get almost the same results 
in your ales and lagers -- would you say that distilled water is best for 
brewing?  RO filters are capable of purifying water to a greater extent than 
distillers, entirely removing "contaminants" as small as mineral ions such 
as: calcium, sulfates, magnesium, sodium, and chloride -- the removal of 
which will effect hardness and pH.  If you are mashing your own grains the 
absence of these elements could be detrimental -- when brewing from extract, 
syrup or dry, this becomes less of an issue because the masher, hopefully, 
made sure that these elements were present at appropriate concentrations 
during the mash.  If you are going to mash your own grains and are planning 
on using RO water (or distilled) it is wise to add epsom salt (magnesium and 
sulfate), table salt (sodium and chloride), gypsum (calcium and sulfate), 
and calcium chloride flakes (calcium and chloride), in proper amounts to 
reach concentration levels which are appropriate to the particular style of 
beer you are brewing -- ONLY if you know what you are doing should you go 
this route though, it is very easy to screw up water this way.
One more thing about RO filters, because they self clean their membrane they 
waste an incredible amount of water -- it takes about 10 gallons of water to 
make 5 gallons of purified water -- that other 5 gallons is sent down the 
drain.
I would rather have fluoride in my water than to deal with all this.




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Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:37:05 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Don't make this

I tried to make a pale ale for the holidays, and darn did it come out bad. 
I did want to make it a bit lighter for those not normally inclined to 
have a homebrew, but I REALLY overdid it in the wrong direction. Instead 
of creating a pale ale with some bite, I created a really drab tasting 
thing that I can only save by mixing with another "real" ale.

Here is the recipe. DO NOT MAKE THIS. 

If anyone has suggestions, then I am open.  Perhaps some crystal malt?

8lb Canada maltings 2 row 
1 lb Carapils
1 lb wheat

1 rest at 154 F for 60

 .75 oz Centenial at start of last 60 min
 .25 same at 30
 .25 at 15
IBU's were  41.1  , on the high side, I thought...

yeast was the third use of Australian and English vials...

taste was watery...hops were not really evident...

bad beer...

any suggestions on making an american pale ale, one that can be 
appreciated by the masses, but not so ,...well...bland...will be 
appreciated.

 ..Darrell
(having an identiy crisis: I thought that I was a brewer!)




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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 04:22:01 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Medicine

<<Could a small amount of beer be safely used to help control chronic
anxiety?  This is from someone with a background custom of just about
never touching any alcohol at home or out.>>

When I was 5 years old, when my Grandfather would have a High-Ball (burbon &
ginger ale) I would ask him what it was.  He would reply, "I'ts medicine".

Seriously, alcohol is a depressant, and most literature says it is beneficial
in moderation (2 to 3 beers or mixed drinks daily).

Historically, alcohol has been prescribed, or self-prescribed, to control
anxiety.

I like the story where the old tea-totaler mother was having trouble sleeping.
The country doctor told the son to put a little brandy in her milk each
evening at dinner.  He did each day for a week, then asked Mom how she was
feeling.  She replied "I feel fine, just don't sell that cow". (paraphrased
from Bonnie & Clyde).

Mike Maag, at a low anxiety level in the Shenandoah Valley, Va.




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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:50:52 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: That last bit of kettle wort

Several persons have stated the tubing from the kettle may need to be small
diameter to insure pulling the last bit of wort out of the kettle.
I have found, if the end of the tube is below the wort level in the receiving
vessel, enough "head" is pulled to suck the last bit out of the kettle using a
standard (3/8) tube (my god, if 3/8 is considered "small", then "nevermind").

If only a 4 inch column of wort is maintained in the tube, then the "head"
will be adequate to pull all the wort out.  If you use some flower hops in the
boil, the hops will filter out most of the trub, as long as you let the wort
rest for 45 min before draining the kettle.

Mike Maag, In the Shenandoah Valley, Va.



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Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 18:30:10 -0500
From: Pete Limosani <plimosani at rcn.com>
Subject: THE BUFFALO THEORY 

In an episode of 'Cheers', Cliff is seated at the bar describing the
Buffalo Theory to his buddy, Norm...

"Well you see, Norm, it's like this...a herd of buffalo can only move as fast
as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and
weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good
for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole
group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest
brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells.
But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this
way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the
brain a faster and more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers." 



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Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:07:16 -0500
From: "Greg Collins" <gmc123 at bellsouth.net>
Subject:  Re: Wort Reclamation Survey/Lost Brew in the Boiler

Many thanks to all who responded to my "Lost Brew" question. Seems that no
matter how simple the problem, folks are always eager to help. For instance,
John Palmer went to the extent of conducting a survey. Even posted the #1
survey result, not to mention all the others who provided detailed
instructions
along with digital pictures. And too, being the concerned folks that they
are,
I was asked privately to report back and share my findings.  So don't blame
me, you asked for it....

 First of all I will start with the #1 survey answer that showed 70 % opted
to use a "straw". This at first did seem to be the most cost effective
approach but not entirely the safest, as I will attempt to explain: During
my first field trial, I noticed that an ordinary straw did not provide
adequate length to fully the reach the bottom. It was near to impossible to
keep both feet firmly planted on the floor and lean over far enough to
reach the wort. Nevertheless, I wanted to give this idea a shot, after all,
survey
says right? So, I had to quickly improvise by moving my favorite brew chair
over to the boiler to provide the badly needed elevation that would get me
closer. That's when the unthinkable happened. As my weight shifted, so did
the chair! Luckily, I caught myself before landing head first straight into
to boiler. (I have read where you can drown in a teaspoon of water, you
know?)

Now, I wouldn't completely toss this idea out the door because a straw will
provide fast access to worts final resting place. But I will advise anyone
who considers this that a few safety hazards do exist, and one should be
careful. It is possible that a some sort of safety harness attached to a
pulley assembly located directly of the boiler could help, or if you trust
your wife enough, maybe she could hold on to the back of your belt while
you attempt to drain.. Still, I'm pretty sure at this point without proper
safety
precautions, there is an imminent possibility of drowning. Lucky for me it
was only a field trial and I escaped without harm. Nevertheless, I dropped
this idea and opted for the second choice. You know, the other 30% of the
survey.

Looking back I should have known something was up because I received no
pictures pertaining to anyone using a straw. Instead, the # 2 survey result
had very detailed pictures directly inline with my current system. It was
recommend that any air leaking thru the fittings would quickly allow the
siphon to lose its prime. Being a little reluctant by now to jump straight
in, I cautiously wrapped each joint with Teflon tape and insured that each
joint was tight. I then filled the boiler with enough water to adequately
cover the pluming and proceeded to drain. Again, much to my amazement. IT
WORKED! Wallaaa! It drained within 2.12 quarts at any flow rate! And since
the other 30% of the survey provided better information, I also decided to
use a "t" at the center with SS braided hose to provide a filter. How did
this work? Marvelously! Although I haven't actually brewed with it yet, it
held up quite well (field test #2) with a couple of quarts of spent
grain/hops (some murky mess that was) that it filtered great!

Now, there you have it. I am still confused a little on the #1 survey
result, but at least the other 30% came thru. At this point it's hard
believe those 70% but I could be convinced with a few digital pictures.

Before I end this adventurous account, I will add one other thing. I'm not a
tightwad! It's just good to the last drop and I want it. For anyone else is
interested, I do have digital pictures of this non-breakthrough in Brewing
Technology.

I really appreciate the help and most of all appreciate the opportunity to
post here.

PS:
I hate to go against the survey but if just one life is saved, it was well
worth the bandwidth.

Please Be Careful!
Greg Collins




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