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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Gott buckling ("Rogers, Mike")
  Beer: 2000 year-old antibiotic? (David Radwin)
  Re: My first mead / melomel ("Asher Reed")
  Basement propane burners (FRASERJ)
  re: Competition Announcements ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Beer of Gold ("Jonathan Royce")
  Writing on the BJCP exam... (Bev Blackwood II)
  ale vs lager vs. wine yeast ("Steve B")
  Muriatic Acid (Richard Foote)
  DLC Yeast ("Dan Listermann")
  BJCP Judge Test (hand-written vs. computer vs. the clock) ("John B. Doherty")
  Re: Basement Brewing with propane burner (Ed Jones)
  Re: Basement Brewing with propane burner (Jeff Renner)
  Re: 10 gallon system recommendations (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Basement Brewing with propane burner (Michael Hetzel)
  Competition Announcement: 2003 Bluebonnet Brew-off (Mark Wedge)
  RE: wine yeast and kit taste (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: My first mead / melomel (Michael Hetzel)
  Re: Brewhouse efficiency ("DRTEELE")
  Berliner weiss and "other" stuff (Marc Sedam)
  Re: ferulic rest (George de Piro)


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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:07:48 -0500
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: Re: Gott buckling

FYI...

My Gott has never shown any sign of distortion at mashing or sparge temps...
The Gott looks the same as the day I bought it... At least fifteen 10 gal
batches later...


Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers
Mid-Michigan
www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/ <www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/> 
mailto:mike01.rogers at yahoo.com <mailto:mike01.rogers at yahoo.com> 



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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:23:44 -0800
From: David Radwin <dradwin at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Beer: 2000 year-old antibiotic?

I heard this on "Pulse of the Planet," a featurette on public radio.

 From http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Jan03/2838.html:
- ---------------------------------
Antibiotic medicines are fairly easy to come by these days, and one of 
the most common -- tetracycline -- can be used to treat anything from 
urinary tract infections to acne flareups. But would you believe that 
this bacteria-fighting drug might have been used more than 2,000 years 
ago? I'm Jim Metzner, and this is the Pulse of the Planet. George 
Armelagos is a professor of Anthropology at Emory University. He and his 
colleagues discovered traces of tetracycline in some well preserved 
bones found in Sudan, in Africa.

"When we started looking at the bone, we found that first of all ninety 
percent of the individuals had the tetracycline. So that means that it 
couldn't have been sort of a chance occurrence. This was something that 
they were probably ingesting throughout their lifetime consistently. So 
then what we did is we started thinking about what are the possibilities 
of how this could get into the system. Tetracycline is produced by 
streptomycedes, which is a mold-like bacteria. And it produces 
tetracycline as essentially a defense against other bacterias. So then, 
when we knew that somehow the streptomycedes would have to have 
contaminated the food."

Armelegos and his colleagues started out by investigating the 
consumption of grain within the ancient population. And then they 
realized that an interesting possibility was staring them right in the 
face...

"We looked at ways in which grain were used, and one of the things that 
we noticed is that grain was used to make beer. And then all of the 
sudden, it was just like an epiphany. We realized that this process of 
making beer might be the source of it."

Well, beer drinkers take note. By researching ancient recipes, 
scientists were able to make a beer that contained tetracycline.
- ----------------------------------

- -- 
David Radwin
news at removethispart.davidradwin.com



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:39:33 +0000
From: "Asher Reed" <clvwpn5 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: My first mead / melomel

You didn't mention your batch size -- using 17.5 lbs of honey in a 5 gallon 
batch size would give you an OG of about 1.140 (final gravity of about 
1.030, 14% alcohol)-- a 10 gallon batch would give you an OG of about 1.060 
(this will finish dry, probably below 1.000).  This doesn't take into 
consideration the 6 lbs of cherries, sugar content can vary on them -- but 
would probably bump the OG up by another 0.010+ (just guessing on this 
though).  10g of champagne yeast, a good amount for 5 gallons with high 
gravity, yeast nutrient is always a good idea with mead also.  68 degrees is 
a good temp for fermentation.  I like to ferment mead between 65 and 72 
degrees.
How did you prepare the must?  boil, pasteurize, sulfite, "dump and stir"?  
I would recommend either boiling for 10 minutes with 1 tsp of irish moss, or 
pasteurizing for 30 minutes with the irish moss (don't boil the fruit of 
course though.)  Boiling or pasteurizing with irish moss eliminates the need 
for fining -- when fermentation is done, the mead will be crystal clear.  
Everyone has their own philosophy of whether is it best to boil, pasteurize, 
sulfite, or to just "dump and stir" -- you have to find what works best for 
you on that issue, it seems to be quite a contentious subject among mead 
makers.
I've been considering flavor/aroma hopping a mead for a while now, it sounds 
good, but I don't have any recommendation on how much to use -- I love hop 
flavor and aroma so I would probably be as generous as if it were an IPA.  
Good luck on it, let us know how it turn out.



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:03:33 -0500
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Basement propane burners

Paul,

I use a propane burner for boiling my wort,  I used to use a twin fan
window fan and I found that it did not seem to give me enough extraction.
I too just have two small basement windows.

I just changed the design and now have a box fan, mounted diagonally from
the bottom of the window to the floor joists.  I made a "hood" out of 3/4'
foam insulation board.

Now, with the box fan running on the mid speed, it provides perfect
ventilation.  In fact, my girlfriend tells me that we cannot have a fire in
the fireplace burning when I brew because it pulls so much air down the
chimney!!!  To defeat this I have the other basement window open, which,
when it is 20 degrees here in Columbus, OH, makes for a chilly boil
session!

I will try and get a new page on my website that shows the fan mounted with
the styrofoam "hood".

John M. Fraser
http://rims-brewing.tripod.com




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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:10:35 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Competition Announcements

Donald Hellen asks:

> I would like to see homebrew competition announcements made here to be
> made at
> least 2 months before the competition. That's cutting it close if
> someone were to make a barleywine or imperial stout, but it would give
> someone who is making a lighter ale or lager enough time to brew
> especially for that competition.

Brewing for an upcoming competition can take a little advanced planning, even
two months is too short for many styles. Following are a couple of event
colanders that may make it easier:

from the BJCP site - http://www.bjcp.org/compsch.html
from AHA Beertown - http://www.beertown.org/calendars.htm

There are others out there as well (check out some of the brew rag sites), but
these two should have most of the competitions. And while you're looking at
theses competition calendars, you might think about going to some of the
events in your region and volunteering as a steward (and later as a judge).
Many of these competitions are growing each year and need help. Stewarding is
a great way to get started in becoming a BJCP judge. Even if you don't want to
go that far, it's a great way to improve your critical tasting skills - as a
steward you can taste the beers and listen to the judge's comments without
having to fill out a score sheet. It can also be a lot of fun, and add another
really enjoyable aspect to the hobby. Competitions are another part of the
brewing community. Many comps include seminars, parties, etc and you'll get to
meet other brewers & judges (including folks on the HBD). I'm off to
Tallahassee this weekend to judge & party at the Big Bend Brew Off. This is
the opening of the competition season here in Florida.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 04:40:31 -0800
From: "Jonathan Royce"<jtroyce at earthlink.net>
Subject: Beer of Gold

Sven Pfitt wrote:
"As far as the price goes, I make mostly beer that costs me in the range of
$3-$5 per bottle. That works out to $144 to $240 a 5 gallon batch equivalent."

To which I say:

WOW! That is some expensive homebrew. It must be the nectar of the Gods! 

My most expensive batch to date cost about $42 in ingredients, and that was a
winter warmer with some fresh spices (cinnamon sticks, vanilla beans) and a
good quantity of clover honey. I think I got 44 bottles out of that batch,
making the cost per bottle just under $1. If I then add the cost of cleaning
water, detergent, sanitizer, electricity and natural gas consumption, I might
have spent an extra $10 on the batch, but that's a very liberal estimate. Even
so, a $52 batch works out to about $1.18 per bottle or $7/six pack, which is
only $1 more than most good beers at my local grocery. 

By comparison, my cheapest batch ever has been an Irish red for which I reused
a yeast cake from an English pale ale. I think the cost of that batch was
something closer to $22. 

I brew via partial-mash, so I would expect all-grainers have even better
economies (although more of a time investment).

 -Jon
Woodbury Brewing Co.
Merrimack, NH
[626.8, 82.2] Apparent Rennerian 


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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:48:26 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Writing on the BJCP exam...

Alan Monaghan observes;

> While I understand the problems and the needs of the many on this, I 
> must
> say that having to hand write that many pages is a pain the butt.

I agree Alan, but honestly, writing by hand is something that virtually 
everyone has done their whole life.  I think it's ridiculous to claim 
impairment because you spend so much time on the computer.  (So do I, 
by the way)  My writing may not be pretty (I block letter, my cursive 
always sucked) but it gets the job done.  Do I type faster?  It's 
debatable.
You need to accept that there will be others who feel that you have an 
unfair advantage because you have a laptop and they don't.  Not 
everyone can afford them or has a need for one.  They may be hell on 
wheels on a keyboard but couldn't / wouldn't / can't drag a desktop to 
the test.  It also places extreme burdens on the proctors to verify 
there isn't cheating going on.  God help the poor proctor who has to 
learn to traverse a UNIX file structure to see if there are hidden 
files, or rummage through the Windows temp files.  Not only that, the 
proctor has to neglect the other folks taking the exam to look over 
someone's shoulder regularly.
I have heard they are considering shortening the essay portion of the 
exam and adding some multiple choice questions, so maybe there's hope 
for you yet.

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:57:47 -0500
From: "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>
Subject: ale vs lager vs. wine yeast

I was recently having a conversation with a co-worker about the health 
benefits of drinking fermentables with the yeast still in the container.  
Her doctor had recommended this course of action during a bout with anemia.  
The doctor specifically suggested stout or ale.  I was figuring because it 
was more likely these items would be bottle conditioned.  Well I got to 
thinking, is there a nutritional difference among the different yeasts?  I 
realize they are basically the same yet each strain is different.  Would the 
top vs bottom fermentation affect the nutritional value?  Any ideas?
S







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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:35:14 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Muriatic Acid

Brewers,

I guess this is one more for the chemists and metalurgists out there...

I am wondering about the suitability of muriactic acid as a cleaner for
home brewery use.  I have an opportunity to get some that a friend no
longer wants/needs.  Is it okay to use on stainless, copper, brass?  Should
it be reduced in strength?  What strength?  Any use/safety cautions?  

I've found some info. via internet search but not enough (yet) for me to
make a decision.   I've used this stuff before for etching concrete prior
to painting and know that it's used for pH adjustment in swimming pools.
Any info. would be appreciated. 

TIA,

Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:49:49 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: DLC Yeast

WOW!  It looks like I will just have to get used to the freshly reamed one.

Here is an idea.  DLC and C & B don't want Paddock Wood selling repackaged
bricks of yeast.  Selling bulk malt and hops does not seem to be a problem,
why not bulk yeast.  Price the yeast by gram and have the customers order it
that way.  I would fire this across DLC and C&B's bow to avert a cut off in
case they felt really strongly about things.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:03:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: BJCP Judge Test (hand-written vs. computer vs. the clock)

In regards to Alan's comments below about the BJCP judge test...
In the future, wouldn't it be wonderful if there were a way to make the BJCP
test itself computerized?  Aren't the GRE, SAT and other standardized tests
moving to computerized examinations?  There are more than a few tech saavy BJCP
members out there... who will be the first to administer a computer based test?
 :)

I agree that continuously writing for 3 hours is quite a difficult proposition,
and my hand hurt for the rest of the weekend when I took the test on a
Saturday.  I think that in the short term, a little more time for taking the
test should be considered.  My first thought is to truly separate the tasting
portion from the written portion, giving 3 full hours to the written portion. 
I recall taking the test, sipping a somewhat infected "Scottish" Ale, trying to
mentally make some impressions about it, while simultaneously my hand was
writing out a 5 gallon recipe for a bavarian hefe-weizen!

With this test, as with most, either you know the answer or you don't.  Giving
some extra time (I'd actually like to see more time than 3 hours) will only
help people - BS is BS, and a grader isn't going to give you bonus points
because you wrote 3 pages of it per question - you'll probably lose points for
aggravating them!  But someone who truly has real information to put down on
paper could benefit from a little extra time.  If you spend no more than 18
minutes per question and judge 4 beers as you write, you're in good shape.  But
spend 20 minutes per question and you might only answer 9 out of 10 questions -
automatic 93 at best.
I'll be looking to re-take the test in a few years - maybe we can get the time
restraints modified by then.  :)

Cheers,

John Doherty
BJCP National
Lakeville, MA


> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:05:00 -0500
> From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at Gardnerweb.com>
> Subject: Re: BJCP Levels
> 
> This is in reference to the test itself. 
> While I understand the problems and the needs of the many on this, I must
> say that having to hand write that many pages is a pain the butt. I work
> with computers 12 hours a day and I have not written more than a thank you
> note in more that 20 years. I feel that you should be allowed a portable
> computer w/ word on it and a printer of your providing to take the test.
> Now, I know that there are cheaters everywhere, but I would think that
> something like this, what is the point. I have worked hard, studied hard and
> I just can't write like that. My last test was awful. I couldn't even read
> the last part. I really appreciate the judge that took the time to try and
> help me by grading my test. 
> I would like to see something that would help in this regard. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
>        Be like water my friend ...
> Alan G. Monaghan
> 



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:08:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Basement Brewing with propane burner

Paul asks about basement brewing:

"I see posts now and then where home brewers mention their basement
brewery. To them, I have a question. Are you brewing with a propane
burner in your basement??  If YES, what type of ventilation do you
have?
I recently go hold of a 170,000 BTU King Kooker unit and will be moving

to all grain soon.  I would like to brew in my basement, problem is
that I have only 2 small basement type window down there.  No bilco
doors or other openings to the outside.  I feel that I could mount fans
to these windows but don't know if that would provide sufficient
ventilation.  If this is a no go then I guess I will be brewing outside
or in the garage.  Your feedback on this will be more than welcome."

I have a basement brewery (http://ironacres.com/brewery.html). I use
natural gas and not propane and I built a fume hood to remove the
steam, smell, but most importantly CO and CO2 gasses from combustion. I
suppose you could use propane in the house so long as the propane tanks
were outside, but I wouldn't do it myself. I seem to recall that
propane is heavier than air and will 'pool' at ground level if there is
a leak. If it migrates to the pilot light of the hot water heater BOOM!

Ventilation is your other concern. You will need to move a LOT of air
to keep the noxious gases out of your home. I have a furnace blower
motor drafting outside and I open 3 windows for make-up air. It works
reasonably well but I wont kid you, I'm still a little nervous about it
but no problems so far.

There were two reasons I wanted to move inside: 1. To stay warm in the
winter and 2. so I didnt have to lug fermenters down the stairs from
the garage into the basement. I still use carboys and man, that's just
scary hauling them down the steps. But that said, ff I had it to do
over again (and someday I will), I would setup my brewery in the garage
or and outbuilding or build an electric brewery for the house. I'd
switch to plastic or stainless steel fermenters and get a cheap hand
truck to help move them up and down the stairs if necessary. The other
approach I've seen done is to connect a hose from the chiller in the
garage brewery to the fermenter in the basement. 

If you choose to go the basement route, reconsider the use of propane.
Build and electric brewery if you can. If you use natural gas, make
sure you have a LOT of ventilation. Window fans will not suffice. I
have the experience to prove it. Hopefully those brewers with electric
breweries will pipe up with their thoughts.

Good luck!


=====
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:35:10 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Basement Brewing with propane burner

"Romanowsky, Paul" <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com> writes:

>I recently go hold of a 170,000 BTU King Kooker unit and will be moving to
>all grain soon.  I would like to brew in my basement, problem is that I have
>only 2 small basement type window down there.  No bilco doors or other
>openings to the outside.  I feel that I could mount fans to these windows
>but don't know if that would provide sufficient ventilation.  If this is a
>no go then I guess I will be brewing outside or in the garage.

I am suspicious that you will be hard pressed to get enough 
ventilation without a hood and fan, but regardless, I strongly 
recommend that anyone brewing inside, even a garage, get and use a 
digital carbon monoxide detector.  I use a Nighthawk that begins to 
display at 8 ppm (although it says that it has not been investigated 
for detection at levels below 60 ppm).  I brew in the attached 
garage, and when levels get above 20-30 ppm, I open the doors wider. 
It's always a balance in the winter between warmth and CO.

OSHA limits exposure to 50 ppm for 8 hours 
http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/carbonmonoxide/recognition.html

I like to keep it well below that.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:18:02 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 10 gallon system recommendations

jim williams <jimswms at cox.net> writes:

>I'm looking for recommendations on complete 10 gal. Systems. So far, I've
>looked at the sabco Brew Magic and Pico brewing system. The Sabco system
>looks like the homebrewers holy grail, but, it sure is expensive! That said,
>is it worth the $$? What else is out there? Any recommendations greatly
>appreciated.

I'll simply say that pico-Brewing Systems 
http://www.pico-brewing.com/ owner and engineer/fabricator Mike 
O'Brien is a long time friend, member of Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, and 
a helluva nice guy.  He's a real grease under the fingernails 
engineer type who can make or fix anything.  The standard system is 
made from 15.5 gallon half barrels, but Mike has designed and 
installed 15 barrel systems, and he makes a five gallon "femto" 
system for stove top brewing.  The 55 gallon steam heated one is 
really nifty - I've brewed on it a couple of times.

Many AABG members use pico systems and love 'em.  I myself use a ten 
gallon non-standard pico system that Mike made for me from ten gallon 
aluminum stock pots.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:33:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hetzel <hetzelnc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Basement Brewing with propane burner

Romanowsky, Paul <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com> wrote:

I see posts now and then where home brewers mention their basement 
brewery. To them, I have a question.   Are you brewing with a propane
burner in your basement??  If YES, what type of ventilation do you 
have? I recently got hold of a 170,000 BTU King Kooker unit and will be
moving to all grain soon.  I would like to brew in my basement, problem
is that I have only 2 small basement type window down there.  No bilco
doors or other openings to the outside.  I feel that I could mount fans
to these windows but don't know if that would provide sufficient
ventilation.  If this is a no go then I guess I will be brewing outside
or in the garage.  Your feedback on this will be more than welcome.
<stuff deleted>

***
If you're concerned about ventilation then you probably know that
burning propane (or any fuel for that matter) releases carbon monoxide.
CO is an oderless, colorless gas that is extremely dangerous (you may
have heard the stories of people using a propane stove or lamp in their
tents while camping and dying as a result). I would highly recommend
against using a propane stove in your basement, as fans mounted in your
two windows (one blowing in, one blowing out of course) still probably
won't do the job. To be sure, purchase a CO detector and install it
away from the window, somewhere it could acculumate but near the
source. To be safe, go outside, as there I'm willing to bet those that
brew in their cellars are using electrical heaters.

A quick google search turned up this website:
http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/coinformation.htm
The name pretty much says it all.

Another, more detailed site (www.coheadquarters.com) also mentions this
(verbatim): Now, an emerging body of evidence suggests that longer
exposures to lower levels of CO, ie. chronic CO poisoning, are capable
of producing a myriad of debilitating residual effects that may
continue for days, weeks, months and even years.

Na zdrowie!
 -Mike



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:49:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Wedge <markwedge at yahoo.com>
Subject: Competition Announcement: 2003 Bluebonnet Brew-off

The Bluebonnet Committee is pleased to announce the 17th Annual
Bluebonnet Brew-off 2003 homebrewing competition.  The Bluebonnet
Brew-off is an AHA and BJCP sanctioned competition as well as a
MCAB Qualifying Event.  It is also the first leg of the Gulf Coast 
Competition.

The Bluebonnet Brew-off be held March 21-22, 2003 at the Holiday
Inn, Dallas/FT Worth Airport South, 4440 W. Airport Freeway, 
Irving, TX 75062.  We are proud to announce that Dr. Chris White
from White Labs will be the keynote speaker for the event.

Entries will be accepted from all BJCP/AHA beer style
categories, including cider and mead as well as a New Entrant
Category.  The style guidelines may be viewed at
http://www.bluebonnetbrewoff.com under the 2003 Bluebonnet
Information link.

Three bottles are required for entry with an entry fee of
U.S.$7.00 for early entries and U.S.$9.00 for late entries.
Online Registration and automatic entry form and bottle label
generation is available at http://www.bluebonnetbrewoff.com
under the 2003 Bluebonnet Information link.

For people that are unable to register online downloadable forms
are also available from the website in the downloads section.


Bluebonnet Brew-off Schedule
__________________________________________________________________

Early Entries Accepted from  Friday, February 14, 2003 to
                             Saturday, February 22, 2003 

Late Entries Accepted from   Sunday, February 23, 2003 to
                             Saturday, March 1, 2003.

First Round Judging          Saturday & Sunday March 8 & 9, 2003 
                             Saturday & Sunday March 15 & 16, 2003 

Bluebonnet Brew-off          Friday & Saturday March 21 & 22, 2003


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:15:51 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: wine yeast and kit taste

Fair warning to the brewers out there. This is largely about wine stuff,
so... Nothing to see here, move along, folks, move along...

Bill Wible writes:

> Some people who make wine don't use any yeast at
> all.  They crush their grapes and let them ferment
> naturally, from whatever micro-organisms happened
> to be on the grapes from the field when they were
> picked.  And people have been doing this for
> centuries.  
> 
> I guess yeast isn't as big a deal with wine as
> it is with beer?  Other experiences?

While the overall impact of a certain strain will have a less noticeable
effect on wine than beer, I would not go so far as to say yeast choice is
not a big deal. There are dozens of dry yeast strains available to the
commercial winemaker, and they take great care in selecting a strain or
strains to provide different nuances to the wine. Wine is all about nuances,
you know. ;-) Only a very few get packaged up in small packets suitable for
your typical home winemaker. In that respect, Lallemand, Red Star, and
Gist-Brocades are not that very much different from DCL. The difference is,
they don't try to tell the amateur winemaker that, for example, EC-1118 is
just the small package version of CY3079. If DCL is indeed doing this, that
is extremely disrespectful of the amateur community. I'm now waiting for
Alan McKay to call for a boycott of DCL yeasts over this. ;-)

As to the practice of using wild yeast to ferment your wine, this is a path
fraught with peril for most amateurs. Commercial wineries that do this (and
to the best of my knowledge it is very rare on this side of the pond) do so
because they have found that their natural yeasts produce an
organoleptically acceptable product. Certainly, all winemaking started out
this way. However, over the centuries, winemakers have helped the process
along by encouraging beneficial yeast colonies to dominate a vineyard by
returning the spent grape pomace of good wines back into the vineyard. Your
typical amateur working from a few boxes of Lodi Zinfandel does not have
this heritage working in their favour, and is much better off innoculating
with a good commercial yeast.

Mike Sharp writes:
> 
> This surprises me.  I've always assumed the wine kits were 
> concentrated using ultrafiltration.  I've worked with systems 
> that concentrate grape juice using this system, and heat is 
> not involved (at least during the concentration part).  
> Anyone here know how the kit wines are produced? Especially 
> the red kits?

I will defer to your first hand knowledge of the process since I have none.
This was related to me by what I considered to be a knowledgeable source
some time back. I suspect heat is a factor in colour extraction for reds,
and I would also assume that heat is involved in producing a product that is
shelf stable. Yes, I know the old joke about "when you assume,..." but I
won't complete that sentence for fear of triggering Pat's filters. Whatever
it is, there's something in those kit wines that make them my first choice
for when the in-laws come over. ;-)

And what happened to the Jan 15th Digest? I'll bet a lot of people went into
Pavlovian spasms over this. ;-)

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:16:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hetzel <hetzelnc at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: My first mead / melomel

From: "Andy Mikesell" <andrew.mikesell at sybase.com>

I brewed my first mead (or is it considered a Melomel?) last night and 
had a few questions.  The simple brew is:

 - 17.5 lbs clover honey
 - 6 lbs cherries
 - 2 packs (10 oz) Red star champagne yeast
 - Yeast Nutrient

The OG is 1088.  Does this sound right for 17.5 lbs of honey?

The carboy temp is currently 68 F and I expect primary fermentation to 
run 4 - 6 weeks.  I can move the carboy to bring it as low as 40 F, or
as high as 76 F.  Opinions, advice, experience?

I used liquid finings in my last 2 all-grains with great success.  
Should I consider using finings here at the 2nd or 3rd racking?

I am undecided on hopping but have considered hallertau dry hopping at 
3.5 - 4 AAU at the 2nd racking.  Is this unadvisable?  Other advice wrt

hopping?

Any other advice or gotchas?

Thanks, Andy
***

I tend to be very easy going about my meads so I'll just give some
general advice, based on my experience.
Skip the finings (it should clear fine with time, unless you boiled the
fruit which could lead to pectin haze) and hops. Keep the temperature
warm (70 or so). Be prepared to wait.. I don't touch my meads for a
year (aside from tastings during transfers).

About the fruit (which does makes it a melomel).. did you leave the
cherries in? I always start with the heated (not boiled) wort and then
toss in the fruit (frozen and thawed.. it helps extraction, as the
water freezing breaks cell walls). Anyway, I leave the fruit in the
primary (brew bucket) and let the yeast go at it for at least a week.
The fruit mush should be discolored and floating (don't forget to
"punch the cap" once a day or so.. ie push the floating schmeg back
into the wort). Then I strain out the fruit, and transfer. I'll usually
transfer two more times over the course of the year.. I prefer to bulk
age.
About the honey, thats seems about right for 5 gal. The champagne yeast
will ferment dry (as opposed to sweet), with high alcohol. Congrats on
venturing into mead making.
Hope this helps.

Na zdrowie,
Mike



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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:15:32 -0800
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Brewhouse efficiency


- ----- Original Message -----
Mike wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:33:36 -0500
> From: "Michael Maag" <MichaelMaag at doli.state.va.us>
> Subject: Brewhouse efficiency
>
> I got a OG of 1.061 using 11 lbs of 2 row (yield points/lb/gal= 79)
> and 11 lbs of Munich (yield points/lb/gal= 75).
> Batch size 10 gal.
> What is my brewhouse efficiency?  (please list the formula, not
> "plug it in to ProMash" )
>
 Mike, I think the yield numbers you are listing are for points per kilogram
per gallon. IIRC, typical yield for base malt should be around 36
points/lb/gal, which agrees with your yield numbers for kilos.

Equation 1:
Weight of malt X yield points = available yield points (sum up all malts if
malts have different yields)

Equation 2:
O.G. of wort X gallons = extracted yield points

Equation 3:
Extracted yield / available yield = efficiency.

With your numbers, your brewhouse efficiency is about 33%. If your yield
numbers are for kilos, your efficiency jumps to 79%. Big difference, huh?

(Not bad for an extract brewer)
Dan in Sunny South Florida
(where some cool weather has finally arrived)




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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:34:30 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Berliner weiss and "other" stuff

Rick Foote talks about making a Berliner weiss...

I started making these a few years ago, with the results in the archives 
of the HBD.  I had a few recipes under my belt and was then fortunate to 
travel to Germany, albeit Munich and not Berlin.  We found one bar 
(I think it was 
Paulaner downtown) that served Berliner Weiss but what I was served 
already had the fruit syrup in it and was given to me with a STRAW!!! 
 No wonder I was scowled at by the braufrau who served it.  I clearly 
understood how the Muencheners feel about this particular style.

I found a few bottles of Berliner Weiss in a beer store and brought them 
home.  I was absolutely shocked at how sour these beers are and doubt 
that many of the HB judges get it either.  My first thought was "Ye 
gods!  They're THIS sour?!"  But they are.  The true geek in me would 
have taken my pH meter out and measured, but there's lots of background 
info on it.  Let's just say that there's a big taste difference between 
the pH ~4.4 of "normal" beer and the pH ~3.0 (I'm guessing) of Berliner 
Weiss.  My best luck in making this style is to underpitch the yeast and 
give it a day's head start then pitch the lacto culture with no starter. 
After about a month in the primary at room temps, it's sour enough to 
send to the chest freezer to chill.  The lactobacillus will still keep 
souring this even at low temps.  The only way I've found to stop it is 
to chill the beer to 30F.

As for the "other" news I stirred up last week.  Many of y'all have 
written to say you're shocked no more traffic is on the HBD about it. 
I'm not.  No one is interested in a brewing flame war and I wasn't 
interested in starting one.  But I do have dozens of emails from people 
experiencing similar stuff and/or poor experiences.  They have ranged 
from shipping broken and/or used equipment, failure to ship 
(with the shop
insisting it was shipped), accusations that the customer was of 
ill-repute in one form or another, telling one European customer that 
they no longer ship overseas even though the website touts overseas 
shipping, contacting the company of one customer and telling them that an
attempted customer was using his email for personal use on company time to 
complain to her, and one instance of threatening a lawsuit. Complaints 
have been from buyers and suppliers.  Also note that the store no longer
offers an AHA discount and its proprietor resigned from a much-coveted
 position on the AHA Board of Advisors.

A few people have even said they would no longer order from them and/or 
hold up a current order until the situation was explained.  
That's certainly not 
my intent, but of course everyone has the same right not to buy from 
St. Pat's as St. Pat's does to not sell to me.  The lesson from all 
of this is 
two-fold:  (1) if you like their selection, don't piss them off because 
you will not be allowed to play in their sandbox, and (2) if you do order 
from St. Pats, hope it's right the first time because correcting an 
incorrect order seems a little problematic.  YMMV.  I'm sure #1 explains
much of it, as some people who've written to me specifically asked to not 
use their names publicly.  I respect those requests.

BTW, my first bits of equipment from the aborted order have already 
started to arrive from other, more user-friendly locales.  
In the end, the happy 
story about getting another newbie brewer into all-grain brewing and 
promoting the hobby is still there.

Cheers!

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC






- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/





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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:34:14 -0500
From: George de Piro <george at EvansAle.com>
Subject: Re: ferulic rest

Hi all,

I'm really sorry that it has taken me two weeks to reply to Steve's
excellent post about 4 vinyl guaiacol (4vg) in Weizen beers.  I had a lot
more time to write beer stuff back in my days in the pharmaceutical
industry!

Steve wrote a lot of good information about the factors affecting the
formation of 4vg in beer.  He then asks:
> 
> So George - how do you control & balance the clove vs ester flavors in your
> weizens ?  Temps, aeration, pitching rates, open fermenters etc ?   Please
> comment on what you see as the flavor and design issues for weizens.   How
> to you handle your hefe's ?    How is that weizen yeast from Hubert Hangofer
> working for you and do Logsdon-WY or White-WL vend it yet ?

OK, the easy stuff first:  yes, I still use Herr Hangoffer's Weizen yeast
(Coming up on 4 years commercially).  While it is banked at White Labs, it
is not commercially available through them (as far as I know).  I have given
the yeast to several homebrewers, though.  I don't like secretive brewing.

Obviously, I like the way the yeast performs, and I believe the yeast to be
the most critical ingredient in Weizenbier.  To my senses, it is balanced on
the clove side, with plenty of esters to balance, but not so much as to be a
banana plantation.  It does not like cool temperatures; I allow
fermentations to go up to 78F (26C) to ensure that it will finish in a
reasonable amount of time.  The flavors it develops at this temperature are
pleasing to me.

I pitch the yeast at about 60-65 (15.6-18.3) and allow the temperature to
rise on its own accord.  Theoretically, this should slow the rate of yeast
growth, thus inhibiting the production of fusel alcohols.  I believe that
pitching at a cooler temperature than you intend to ferment at is important
for this reason in all beers, but especially for Weizenbier.  They seem
prone to fusel problems, especially at higher gravities.

As for Steve's other questions:  I lack the equipment to control pitching
rates to a fine degree (I feel good when I'm within 3X10^6 of my target).
Aeration control is even worse:  all I can do is look at the bubbles in the
site glass after the oxygen injector and take a guess at what I feel is the
right amount of foam.  I try to put as much O2 into my Weizen worts as all
my other beers.  Depriving yeast of O2 is simply not a good idea for the
small brewer.

We use closed fermentors at the brewpub, and could not possibly use open
ones.  The fermentation area is open to the restaurant, with airborne grease
and smoke galore.  I do not doubt that open fermentation would make a
difference in flavor, but the risks are too great, and I don't know that the
flavor difference would be a positive one.

A brief aside:  I've had precious few beers from small breweries with open
fermentors that have tasted good more than a few feet from the source.  It
is an ancient technique suitable for making beers that will be drunk fresh,
but if you require any kind of stability in the finished product, you need a
lot of clean room technology surrounding the fermentor.

As for other "flavor and design issues," one of the other keys to a good
Weizen is keeping the hop rate low.  Really low.  9 IBUs low.  To my palate,
the astringency of the phenols works to balance the malt.  Adding too much
hop bitterness can easily push the beer over the edge, creating a finish
that is inelegant, if not unpleasant.

Steve quotes me:
> 
>> The low-temperature rest can have an undesirable impact on head retention
>> and body of the beer.  Too much protein degradation occurs at such low
>> temperatures.
> 
Steve replies:

> OK - but Kunze suggests intensive mashing for wheat malt.   I'd expect much
> worse head+body problems from a 50C-55C rest, but certainly 43C-45C isn't
> helpful.    Isn't this offset by the wheat malt characteristics George, or
> is the problem that your brewing hardware requires a slow rise thru the
> 50-55C danger zone if you mash-in at 45C ?

I believe Kunze is a bit out of date with that statement.  Briess malting
brags that their wheat malt is so well modified that it should be
single-step mashed.  Weyermann wheat malt is also quite well-modified, and
is successfully mashed with no low temperature rests.

Four years ago, I posted about a conversation I had with Hans-Peter Drexler,
the Brewmaster at Schneider und Sohns.  He complained that it was very
difficult to get wheat malt that was under-modified enough to withstand
decoction mashing, despite the fact that their malt was contracted to
specification, and they even had farmers contracted to grow wheat to their
specifications!

As a homebrewer, when I used to decoction mash just about everything, I
learned to skip all low-temperature by cooling the decoction a bit before
returning it to the mash that was already at saccharification temperature.
This way, you can still obtain the (theoretically) positive flavor
contribution of decoction mashing without over-cleaving proteins with
low-temp rests.

Have fun!

George de Piro
Head Brewer, C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
19 Quackenbush Square
Albany, NY, USA 12207
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Brewers of Kick-Ass Brown:  Twice declared the Best American Brown Ale in
the USA at the Great American Beer Festival (2000 & 2002)!



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---