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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  The Equipment Advantage (keith)
  Singing to Your Yeast or It's a Plaid thing... You would not understand ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  I'm sorry (=?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Hetrick?=)
  RE: Separate lauter tun vs. combi-tun ("Mike Sharp")
  Oh! Say it isn't so! (Pat Babcock)
  Thanks for all the help ("charlybill")
  Re: energy sources?? (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: parti-gyle technique (chris)
  Re: energy sources?? (Kent Fletcher)
  Don't let this thread die! (crossno clan)
  Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler (Michael Tollefson)
  Re: PVC issues (Teresa Knezek)
  More on BU:GU ("Dan Gross")
  why one brews (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Two replies... (Bev Blackwood II)
  RE: Priming with Liqueur (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: questionable carboy (Michael Hartsock)
  Same background taste in all my beers ("Gilbert Milone II")
  RE:  Aroma hopping/ note the use of cheap equipment! (Bob Wilcox)
  Slotting manifolds (Mark Kempisty)
  Toasted Oat Maple Porter results (Jake Isaacs)
  cheap equipment and Whiny Wible (yes, I smell the horse) (Jake Isaacs)
  Lager yeast appearance ("Dave Burley")
  chiller thoughts (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
  Drunks Against Mad Mothers: ("Houseman, David L")
  www.beertown.org RE-LAUNCH ("Monica Tall")
  AHA TechTalk Competition Reminder March 15, 2003 ("Jon Douglas")
  Re: Vienna Viennas, and noise (Brian Lundeen)
  Thomas Hardy Returns!!! ("Mark Tumarkin")
  First Wort Hops in Extract Brew (Moses Rocket)


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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:59:57 -0500
From: keith <kellum at adamsadv.com>
Subject: The Equipment Advantage

Boy- a 4k set-up would be nice...

 ...but there are many companies and people that have all the latest
technology available to them and they still turn out crap. And many people
throughout history have used the simplest of tools to create masterpieces.

Talented- diligent brewers can compete and win against the folks with bigger
set-ups. They do all the time. Do the big guys have some advantages?-yes. So
what? You might need to try a little harder, you might need a little more
luck  and it might take longer but that's what make it fun.

As far as the boxing analogy goes I think its more like Roy Jones Jr.
struggling to get up to the190# minimum required for his with 250#  John
Ruiz. A smaller talented guy bringing it to the big guy.  (this is not a
great analogy either- sorry)

Keith 



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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:08:25 -0500
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at attbi.com>
Subject: Singing to Your Yeast or It's a Plaid thing... You would not understand

Scott Bridges Writes:

Singing to your yeast is one thing, but whatever you do...  Don't wear plaid
when brewing!  I won't be held responsible for the results if you do.....

Right, Skotrat???


Actually if you really must know I have taken to dancing around my Scotch
ale fermenters while loosely draped in  Plaid singing various NSync tunes.

I have found it to work great.

Really....

C'ya!

 -Scott

"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:55:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Hetrick?= <invalid76 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: I'm sorry

I'm sorry I broke the HBD.  I was just wondering if it
was ethical to enter another's recipe in a
competition, as I've never entered one - I had no idea
it would spin off into this.

Greg Hetrick
Columbus, Ohio



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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:50:17 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Separate lauter tun vs. combi-tun

George de Piro replies about: Separate lauter tun vs. combi-tun

"The main reason is wort quality:  you can get much clearer wort if you are
using separate vessels." 

How do you typically transfer the mash to the lauter tun?  


He also sez:
"If one designs their procedures so that no vessel is occupied for more than
2 hours, a brewer can produce 12 batches each day."

I thought this might be suggested...I always thought the bottleneck in a
small brewery was fermentation capacity.  Or do most small brewers prefer to
brew like madmen one day a week?  It seems like a 10 bbl brewery, doing 12
batches a day, would need refrigerated fermentation capacity out the wazoo.
I guess in an "industrial" brewery (meaning it's not done in a
restaurant/pub where space is a premium) and you had the demand, you could
just rent more space, and buy lots more tanks and refrigeration equipment.
But it's hard to imagine the mash tun being the bottleneck in a brewpub...

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:08:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Oh! Say it isn't so!

Ach! Greetins, Barelangs! Take muh ta yer Scottish Ayul! 

Laddie Skotrat chirrups: "Actually if you really must know I
have taken to dancing around my Scotch ale fermenters while
loosely draped in Plaid singing various NSync tunes."

Say it t'ain't so, laddie! Are ye daft, man? Have ye fergotten
the tragedy in me brewery yarens gone by from the plaid? And to
rile them further with bad music, boyo. Aye! May the good lard
have marcy on year soul.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:44:40 -0600
From: "charlybill" <charlybill at prodigy.net>
Subject: Thanks for all the help

Thanks to all who responded both in the HBD and by prvt email regarding my
request for info on beers in PA and Indy.

I am happy to report that I have a very nice selection coming from
Harrisburg (in spite of the liquor laws but with very helpful people). I
even hope to have some more Bell's added to the list from Indy!

Thanks, Charlie Walker



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Date: 13 Feb 2003 14:59:15 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: energy sources??

>> Rick Dial  writes:

rick> I realize the convenience of lp for getting a big rolling boil
rick> quickly.  The drawbacks are (for me) the 16 mile round trip to
rick> refill and also the occasional, "whoops, I got half way thru the
rick> boil and now we out o' gas". What about plumbing my big cooker
rick> into my 500 pound house lp system? There is an external
rick> regulator on the tank and the house line pressure I believe is
rick> in the 3-4 inches of water area. Cheaper? Dangerous? Pressure
rick> regualtors needed, etc?

I have plumbed my brewing system into the LP gas system in my
workshop.  I have a 250 gallon LP tank that has a regulator, and that
supplies gas at 15psi to the workshop.  Once it comes up out of the
ground next to the workshop, it splits two ways.  The one feed goes to
a pressure regulator, which is for the boiler and steps it down to 3-4
inches of water.  The other split is for the brewing system and comes
directly in to the brewery at 15 psi.  Between the pipe at the wall
and the brewing system is a small regulator that came with a Kamp
Kooker burner and it reduces the pressure a little bit, but I have not
tried to measure it.  On each burner is a valve and that how the flame
height is contolled.

Due to having high pressure gas piped into my workshop, I put a valve
outside the workshop and inside the brewery on that line.  When I am
not brewing, both valves get turned off and the handles removed and
stowed away, so that no one can accidentally turn the gas on.  The
piping had been tested at 30psi for a week and did not lose any
pressure, but I don't want to take any chances.

As far as the regulator goes that is in the brewery, it is the kind
that has no external vent at all, so it should be safe.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen


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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:50:12 -0600
From: chris at mikk.net
Subject: Re: parti-gyle technique 


Rama Roberts writes:
> The technique is intriguing, but something about the whole "second runnings" 
> thing scares me, and suggests the small beer it produces will be substandard.
> I've only had one small beer, Anchor Steam's, which I think is the second 
> runnings from their barleywine? It was horrible, IMO.

Anchor small beer tasted oversparged to me.  It was like
the first and middle runnings had gone into the barleywine,
and only the final runnings went into the small beer.
They might be using a bad technique, because I don't see
too many homebrewers doing parti-gyle if the second batch
is that bad.

Most articles on parti-gyle techniques involve a relatively
small spread between OGs of the two batches.  Randy
Mosher's BT article[1] mentions OG ratios from 2:1 for a
1/3-2/3 volume split, to 58:42 for two equal volume
batches.  In contrast, Anchor's old foghorn/small beer
OG ratio is about 3:1 (inferred from alcohol content),
and the original poster's is 3.4:1.

In a sense, Anchor is getting 2 batches from 1.5
batches worth of grain, while parti-gyle homebrewers
are getting 2 batches from 2 batches worth.

Chris Mikkelson
St. Paul, MN

[1] http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.2/mosher.html


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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:36:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: energy sources??

Rick wonders about hooking his cooker up to his house
LP tank:

"I realize the convenience of lp for getting a big
rolling boil quickly. The drawbacks are (for me) the
16 mile round trip to refill and also the 
occasional, "whoops, I got half way thru the boil and
now we out o' gas". What about plumbing my big cooker
into my 500 pound house lp system? There is an
external regulator on the tank and the house line
pressure I believe is in the 3-4 inches of water area.
Cheaper? Dangerous? Pressure regualtors needed, etc?"

Excellent idea.  Check with your LP salesman, he can
tell you what you need.  Your house is most likely set
up in the 10-12 inch vicinity, natural gas is
typically 3-4.  Most LP furnaces have low gas pressure
switches and will not run at all below 7" (IIRC).  You
mar have to add a new regulator, if the supply
pressure is not suitable for your cooker.  This should
be done at the tank, with a tee AFTER the main shutoff
supplying the two (house and brewery) regulators.  Of
course, if you have a low pressure LP cooker the
existing regulator may work for you, your local Hank 
(or Henrietta) Hill should be able to tell you.

(snip) 
"How about using lp to get the big kettle boiling
quickly and switching over to a heating element after
it is rolling? I have a single 4500 watt suspended by
a white pvc tube assembly for my hlt. Will the 4500
watter keep it rolling and will the white pvc take the
212 degree water ok??"

The element would probably keep you at a boil, but
somebody else will know for sure, there are certainly
a number of all-electric brewers posting here.  One
thing I know for sure, the PVC tube "dipping"
arrangement is a bad idea.  PVC max temp is 140 deg F.
 The tubing would soften and eventually stretch,
lowering the live electrical connections into the
boiling wort, and that's not a happy place.  Electric
heater elements draw serious current, and need to be
treated seriously.  If you want to use one, please
install it in the manner intended, and be sure to
ground the kettle.  It is well worth it to have GFI
protection on that circuit.

"One more. How does our funky homebrew system compare
in btu, furlongs per fortnight, megapizels per khz,
for each gallon of beer, to the big boys energy 
useage??"

Good question.  While in general there is economy of
scale, some breweries have relatively poor energy
efficiency.  Those using modern steam jacketed
equipment, with properly insulated lines, have the
potential to be extremely efficient, depending on the
boiler technology.  

Homebrewing with combustion burners is VERY
inefficient in terms of energy usage, electic brewing
is probably more efficient (less lost heat).  By
definition, it only takes about 12,500 btu's to bring
10 gallons of water from 62 deg F to boil (I picked 62
for a 150 degree delta T). If you want to see how
efficient your setup is, weigh your tank before
starting.  Bring ten gallons of water to a boil.  As
soon as the water hits 212 F, turn off the gas and
weigh the tank again.  Each pound of propane equals
about 20,000 btu's, so if you burn a pound of propane
to bring 10 gallons of water from 62 to 212, the
effiency is 62.5%.  The formula I came up with is
[(T2-T1)* V * 8.33]/19,864 (where T1 is starting temp
of water, T2 is ending temp of water, V is volume of
water in gallons, 8.33 lbs/gallon water density,
19,864 is the btu/lb of propane adjusted for a
non-condensing heat plant).  Suffice to say, larger
breweries SHOULD be more energy efficient than smaller
ones.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:15:03 -0600
From: crossno clan <crossno at tnns.net>
Subject: Don't let this thread die!

If we let this thread die then something bad will happen in 10 days.  
Keep it going and good beer will find you.

ie. Equipment does matter - Brewing for 10+ years, entered 1 contest.  
Figured out I had a bottling infection before the contest started.  
There are my brewing credentials.  I wanted to jump in earlier but bit my
keyboard.

"  Why should you have a brewer with 30 years of experience competing
with a brewer with 3 months of experience." ?

Because the 3 month brewer wants the feedback.  The brewer with 30
years is not entering the beer of the month contest at the club to win.  He
is doing it to share.  The 3 month brewer needs to know where he
stands.  He goes home and brewers harder/smarter.  The 30 year brewer 
tweaks
and moves on to MCAB.  

On-On, Glyn in Estill Springs, TN




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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:33:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Tollefson <mbtoll at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PVC in a rectangular cooler

As mentioned before used CPVC in the place of PVC pipe
since the CPVC is rated for higher temperatures.  I
have never had any problems with using CPVC.  Now the
manifold that I use inside my 5 gal. Gott cooler uses
no cement at all.  It fits together nicely but I can
pull it apart for easy cleaning.  The weird thing
about my set up is I ended up using absolutely no
fitting or glue to pass the pipe from the manifold to
the outside of the cooler!  I though I would need to
but when I put my system together the CPVC pipe alone
formed a good seal so I tested it with boiling water
and no leaks!  I have been using this system since
2000 and have placed in a few competitions with this
cheap system (not to bring another long winded thread
into this).  All I know is it works, its simple and
the product is good. 

Mike Tollefson
President, Club B.A.B.B.L.E. 
http://hbd.org/babble



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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:03:51 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: PVC issues

On or thereabout 2/14/03, beerbuddy at attbi.com spoke thusly:
>Does anyone know where I can find this CPVC? Including fittings? Any more
>detail? Teresa, that one PVC T fitting that you use, is that CPVC? 
>If not, have you noticed any off flavors you might attribute to it?

I know my local hardware store carries CPVC pipe... obviously I 
didn't look to hard for fittings, as you noticed the one chunk of 
regular PVC in my manifold. hehe.

Haven't noticed any off flavors myself, and certainly nothing that's 
been harming the yeast, hehe... but that's only one small piece, so 
it might be a much different story with a whole manifold.

I'm thinking of switching over to a cpvc or copper manifold design 
myself, as the floppy vinyl hose/grain bag combo is proving to be 
quite a pain to clean... and I've heard copper can add yeast 
nutrients to the wort (?), unless that's only during the boil...
- -- 
:: Teresa ::
http://www.mivox.com/

We can't all be heros because somebody has to sit on the curb
and clap as they go by.


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:41:21 -0500
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: More on BU:GU

Martin has a great idea for expanding the application of the BU:GU ratio
described by Ray Daniels in "Designing Great Beers".  It takes the concept
to a different level assuming we can know all the specifics of a beer
including the final gravity.

There is one more way the BU:GU ratio can be useful. (I think Daniels
outlines this in his book). If I am in the middle of brewing I can use it to
make adjustments to hopping levels if I find that I have missed the target
gravity.  An example would be a mash that doesn't yeild the predicted
extract level.

If my target OG is 1.050 I can pretty easily figure out what the gravity
should be in the kettle at the start of the boil.  If I discover that the
gravity at the start of the boil is higher or lower than it should be, one
of the ways to keep the recipe in balance would be to adjust the hopping
level to match the actual gravity.  Knowing what the target BU:GU ratio
should be makes it easy to adjust the bitterness.  If I am shooting for a
BU:GU ratio of .80 that number is the constant and I simply adjust the
bitterness units to match the new predicted final gravity.  It's a good
technnique to stay in the ballpark.

I tried to post something about this a couple of days ago but it seems that
it was lost and never saw the light of day.  I apologize if that older post
shows up along with this one.

Dan Gross
Olney, Md



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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:19:30 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: why one brews

There is certainly enough room in this hobby for various motivations and
rewards, but I, for one agree with Henry in Portage
<beerguy at 1gallon.com>...I brew because others around me like it...and my
"awards" occur frequently...when visitors state that they like what I have
made...  Some do not, and , leaving individual differences aside, these
critiques can also be of value.

 That said, I do see some value in getting feedback from other serious
brewers, and if this occurs in contests at a regular frequency, then that
might be, for me, a reason to enter...to get good feedback...

 But, my problem in that regard is that I rarely follow guidelines very
closely...

 ..Darrell


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:08:33 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Two replies...

> My life is richer for the beer I make, tho probably it wouldn't win 
> ribbons
> (or medals- I don't know how the prizes go).  My enjoyment and the
> companionship of my friends is a good enough reward for me.
>
> Why are YOU brewing?

More or less the same reasons, although I compete a lot more heavily 
than most brewers.  I compete in support of my club's competition, the 
Dixie Cup.  As a club, the Foam Rangers support the MCAB competitions, 
the Gulf Coast Circuit (Bluebonnet, Crescent City, Sunshine Challenge & 
Dixie Cup) the AHA Nationals, all local (Houston area) competitions, 
and a select few other competitions.
As a club member, I enter these in the hope that we will see reciprocal 
entries from their supporting clubs and for feedback on my beers.  
(Although I have long since figured out I make pretty good beer)  Our 
aggressive effort has had a positive effect, in my opinion, with 950+ 
entries last year at Dixie Cup, making it one of the largest single 
site competitions ever. (The old single site AHA's blow away any 
current competition's numbers, so no "world records" although we were 
the world's largest last year.)  Naturally, that leaves less for me to 
drink and share, but I have so much, that's a good thing, otherwise I'd 
be perpetually beer soaked!

> Since I don't know its origin or what substance that was stored in it I
> wanted to know if it was safe to use and if so what steps should I take
> to remove any contaminants. The following information appears on the
> bottom of the carboy: 1998  NRC M-3008

Manufacturer's code.  No bearing whatsoever on the previous contents.  
I have several with the same code, (different years) that were bought 
new.

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
Brewsletter Editor
The Foam Rangers
http://www.foamrangers.com



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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:48:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Priming with Liqueur

I've always heard that 1/5 of liquour has enough sugar
to prime 5 gallons of beer, so perhaps 1/25th would be
appropriate.  750ml/5 = 150 ml.  

mike



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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:55:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: questionable carboy

George asked about a questionable carboy.

If it is glass (and it is) and doesn't appear to be
scratched, I would not be afraid to use it after
proper cleaning.

For the utmost assurance of its cleaning, in case it
was used in a pharmo lab or something, you could
triple rinse it with acetone.  Then you can be very
confident that NOTHING remains.  Then double rinse the
acetone with water and let it dry, the acetone with
evaporate 100%.  (ethanol, will work just as well). 
Don't try to come up with 7.5 gal X 3 of acetone :)
just rinse the sides with a squirt bottle.

mike

PS, use this advice at your own risk, I'm not liable
if I'm wrong!!!!!




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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:52:22 -0500
From: "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com>
Subject: Same background taste in all my beers

 Do other homebrewers experience the same background flavors no matter what
 type of beer they brew? I brew all grain, and I've notices that whether
it's
a wheat beer, scottish ale, or stout, they all have the same background
flavor.According to my girlfriend it says "Hey I made this in my basement".
 It's not an off flavor really, just a similar flavor with all my beers.
 Maybe it's my water?
 Just wondering if anyone has the same experience.
 -Gil




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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:19:17 -0800
From: Bob Wilcox <2bobw at charter.net>
Subject: RE:  Aroma hopping/ note the use of cheap equipment!

I've been reading HBD and brewing for about 7 years now. You can usually
find an answer to your trouble by just reading or knowing who's posts to
read.

 I have alway tried to get good hop aroma in my pale ales but seem to
miss the mark, I think I know why now. Thanks to George DePiros' post on
Aroma hopping.
George wrote,
 
"When using an immersion chiller, the entire wort is cooled at once, so the
last hop addition made will not be steeped in hot wort for very long.   This
preserves the hop oils in the wort, and is an advantage of immersion
chillers,
Counter-flow chillers cool the wort rapidly, but in a piecemeal fashion,
leaving the much of the wort near boiling temperature for a long time.  This
will not only drive off volatile hop oils but it will also cause
isomerization of the alpha acids from the last hop addition.  This
isomerization is much more efficient than many realize, especially if using
hop pellets, and will significantly increase bitterness."

 
I use an immersion chiller and when adding my aroma hops I would let
them steep for 20-30 mins before starting the chiller. The results were
not as much aroma as I wanted and more bitterness then I had figured. So
the next batch of pale ale I brew the chilling will be started right
after the aroma hops go in.

Thanks again George, I have learned a lot and helped my brewing several 
times from your posts to HBD
I've been reading HBD and brewing for about 7 years now. You can usually
find an answer to your trouble by just reading or knowing who's posts to
read.

 I have alway tried to get good hop aroma in my pale ales but seem to
miss the mark, I think I know why now. Thanks to George DePiros' post on
Aroma hopping.
George wrote,
 
"When using an immersion chiller, the entire wort is cooled at once, so the
last hop addition made will not be steeped in hot wort for very long.   This
preserves the hop oils in the wort, and is an advantage of immersion
chillers,
Counter-flow chillers cool the wort rapidly, but in a piecemeal fashion,
leaving the much of the wort near boiling temperature for a long time.  This
will not only drive off volatile hop oils but it will also cause
isomerization of the alpha acids from the last hop addition.  This
isomerization is much more efficient than many realize, especially if using
hop pellets, and will significantly increase bitterness."

 
I use an immersion chiller and when adding my aroma hops I would let
them steep for 20-30 mins before starting the chiller. The results were
not as much aroma as I wanted and more bitterness then I had figured. So
the next batch of pale ale I brew the chilling will be started right
after the aroma hops go in.

Thanks again George, I have learned a lot and helped my brewing several 
times from your posts to HBD

One more thing , I put a web page up several years about my brewing
methods and equipment, something I wrote was "you don't need a million
bucks worth of equipment to brew good beer" take a look at some of the
pictures 2bobw at charter.net I think it goes with some of the stuff that
has been posted here lately.

Bob Wilcox


- -- 

=====================================================
Bob Wilcox
Grants Pass, Oregon
2bobw at charter.net






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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:29:36 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Slotting manifolds

Bill Lucas mentions it will take years to forget about hacksawing his
manifold.

I agree with him!  That was the most BORING part of the job when I made
my 5 gallon Gott mashtun.  I basically did one of the shorter pieces a
day and took two or three days on the longer ones.  A couple of times I
only did about 5 slots and put it aside.  I did this all with a
hacksaw.  You can do it with a Dremel and cutting disk but the tool part
does get in the way on the longer pieces.  One of my LHBSs strongly
recommend slots over holes.  In their experience they saw higher
efficiencies.  I run around 80% with forays up to 85%.

BTW in other discussions in the past, I have been asked about using CPVC
for the manifold.  I have not used a CPVC one but it should work just
fine.  It will just end up a little taller than copper.

- --
Take care,
Mark
Richboro, PA

[I'll figure my Rennarian someday!]



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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:39:41 -0500
From: Jake Isaacs <rjisaa0 at uky.edu>
Subject: Toasted Oat Maple Porter results

Some folks asked me to post the results of my Toasted Oat Maple Porter 
experiment, so I'll oblige.  I settled on the following recipe for 5.5 
gal:

7 lbs pale ale malt
0.5 lb chocolate malt
0.5 lb black patent malt
0.5 lb crystal 120
1 lb rolled oats
1 lb rolled oats toasted at 325 till very brown

0.9 oz whole Challenger, 7%aa (60 min boil)
0.5 oz whole Challenger, 7%aa (15 min boil)

1.25 lb (~1 pt) Grade B maple syrup (10 min boil)

This was easily the most interesting looking grist I've encountered.  
Very nice mixture of colors and textures.  I meant to only add a couple 
ounces of black, but got it mixed up with chocolate when I was 
weighing.  Oh well, we'll see (I like a roasty/coffee flavored porter 
anyway).  Sparge was no problem, despite the oats.  As a dry yeast 
experiment, I pitched rehydrated 11 g packs of both Nottingham and 
Windsor in the same fermenter to see if I got a well-attenuated, but 
somewhat estery result (my impression being that Nottingham is a little 
too clean and Windsor doesn't attenuate enough for a porter).  The 
hydrometer sample was very tasty and maybe a bit too dark (see above 
screw-up), but that's all I can report for now.


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:41:55 -0500
From: Jake Isaacs <rjisaa0 at uky.edu>
Subject: cheap equipment and Whiny Wible (yes, I smell the horse)

In the current list environment, I feel that I should mention that the 
above was made using a mash/lauter tun constructed using an old 7 gal 
fermenting bucket wraped in scrounged foil bubble wrap.  The manifold is 
copper pipe and stainless washer hose jacket.  Prior to my recent 
installation of a copper bulkhead fitting and brass ball valve, my 
bulkhead fitting was CPVC with garden hose o-rings (still using the 
o-rings, actually) and the valve was a glass stopcock type that I 
found.  I boil in the aluminum pot that came with my turkey fryer and 
chill with a copper in garden hose CFC.  The water outflow goes through 
a homemade copper "wort wizard" type venturi vacuum pump that connects 
to a carboy cap on the fermenter (CFC wort outflow attaches to the other 
cap stem) so that when water passes through it, it sucks air out of the 
carboy, drawing wort out of the kettle and through the CFC.  There is a 
valve (probably ball, think it's used for air lines) above a T in the 
wort outflow that I open when the wort starts flowing to draw air into 
the stream through a 0.2 micron filter.

I haven't been all-grain brewing or reading this list for long, but in 
that time Bill Wible has shown himself to be a bigot (the anti-muslim 
thread), an idiot (the dry yeast is crap thread), and now an insecure 
bad loser (need I mention which thread?).  Bill, I think you should 
stick to the state fair competitions.  Maybe you can win a teddy bear on 
the midway.

The dead horse is smelling awfully ripe, but I think I can add something 
new.  What about brewers that enter competitions using extract?  I'm 
sure the equipment used to make the wort and dry/concentrate it cost 
well over the magic $4k figure and those who operate it are pro's.  
These brewers should certainly have an advantage, right?  Actually, 
should they even be allowed to enter, since they're using something they 
didn't make and on professional equipment, at that?  (Disclaimer: I, at 
least, can recognize when my arguments are silly, so don't think that 
this is my actual position on the matter)


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:58:18 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Lager yeast appearance

Brewsters:

On thinking about yeast and beer and the origins of the yeast, think about
wine also as SteveA suggests.

In wine making with unpitched conditions ( i.e. a "natural" ferment) old time
French wine eventually ends up getting fermented to a high alcohol content by
Saccromyces Cerevisiae but in the initial part of the fermentation the
predomionance of "wild" yeasts on the grapes ( e.g. S. Brettanomyces) starts
the fernmentation, but poops out about 4% alcohol. S. Cerevisiae eventually
takes over to finish the fermentation since it can function in the changing
environmental conditions, i.e.  higher alcohol.

Contamination of the wooden equipment by S.Cerevisiae guarantees a high %
alcohol next year. The high alcohol strains predominate.  Survival of the
fittest.

I suspect the same thing happened in beer which sat through the winter in
those Bavarian caves with all those goodies like higher molecular weight
sugars floating around and eventually the lager yeasts, perhaps through
natural mutation or crossing of variants, but more likely were just there in
small amounts naturally, were born to chew these up at cold temperatures. A
sort of penetration into an unfilled environmental niche so common to life,
when given a chance.

I suspect that lager yeasts have been around for  a long time but the
competition always predominated. ( Think of powdery and flocculant ale yeast
and the population of each as the fermentation proceeds.)   It took very
special conditions to develop a strain which could operate under highly
selective conditions ( cold, moderate alcohol and low MW sugars). These
environmental conditions prevented the competition from operating.  In other
words I suspect it was the development of these conditions in brewing history
which brought the lager yeast to the forefront, not a chance crossing or
mutation.
- ---------------------
For those of you who are curious, I went through a pretty rough patch these
past few months with my neutrophil ( first line of defence white blood cells
of the immune system)  count at zero.  Thankfully, I went to Duke University
Medical and got that problem solved, apparently. It does mean I am taking some
pretty powerful medicine, which can have negative long term effects, but I
will at least be around to experience them.  Now I am very busy trying to
catch up on all my projects.  Grape pruning is pretty soon and then busy, busy
with Spring and Summer.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley





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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:11:50 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
Subject: chiller thoughts


Charles wrote:

, anyhow, I thought I'd try to rig a chiller with a water powered stirrer.
I
went to Lowes and bought one of those pumps that you hook up to your drill
thinking that I could use it in reverse.  My idea was to run the water
through
it, then through the immersion chiller.  The (hopefully) spinning shaft
would
turn a paint-stirrer in the brew kettle, thus speeding up the chilling.  The
only problem is . . . . the thing just doesn't work in reverse.  There's way
too
much drag; in fact I couldn't even turn the shaft by hand.  I even tried
taking
it apart, cutting the vanes down, and putting it back together.  No go.
Anyone
have any ideas where I can get something that will transfer the water
pressure
from my hose into mechanical rotation for the stirrer?  I'd like to get the
whole thing mounted on a drop on lid.  I'll post photos when I'm done.


Charles,

I have had a similar thought but in another direction.  I have contemplated
using one of these pumps to drive water though my immersion chiller.  The
concept is this:  I set up a cooler full of ice water (using either store
bought cubes or frozen milk bottles) I suck 32F water with the pump through
the chiller and return the warm water back to the cooler.  As far a I
remember, the biggest rap against the immersion chiller was high water use
(waste).  This way the water use is limited to the displacement of your
cooler (tank).  As far a rigging up a stirrer for chilling, I would use a
cordless variable speed drill locked on a low setting.

Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery
Bogalusa, LA



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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:40:01 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Drunks Against Mad Mothers:  

Drunks Against Mad Mothers:  http://whataguy.mybravenet.com/damm/


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:42:34 -0700
From: "Monica Tall" <monica at aob.org>
Subject: www.beertown.org RE-LAUNCH

Hello all,

In celebration of the Association of Brewers 25th Anniversary, I am excited
and PROUD to announce the re-launch of our Association of Brewers'
www.beertown.org. Same address, with better content, easier to navigate and
a great new design!

Some of you might need to hit 'refresh' on your browser to see the changes.
Note if you have book marked some of your favorite areas on our previous
site you will need to locate the information on the redesigned site and
create a new bookmark.

This project began in October and was initiated and executed by our own
Association of Brewers staff. Our web team consisted of: Cindy Jones: Web
Project Director, Deb Miller: Web Designer, Scott Farling: Information
Systems Manager and Programmer, Stephanie Johnson: Graphics Director and
Monica Tall: Copywriter/Editor. The entire Association of Brewers staff
worked together to provide the content.

We look forward to your comments!

 -Charlie
Charlie Papazian
President
Association of Brewers

- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/2003



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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:48:36 -0700
From: "Jon Douglas" <hopfenkopf at hotmail.com>
Subject: AHA TechTalk Competition Reminder March 15, 2003

Dear Fellow Judges & Homebrewers:

As the Judge Coordinator for the AHA TechTalk Competition that Foam on the 
Range of Denver, CO is hosting on March 15, 2003, I would like to invite you 
to judge and enter our competition.  The competition promises to be 
excellent with sponsorship from the AHA www.beertown.org, White Labs Yeast 
www.whitelabs.com, Beer at Home Homebrew Supply www.beerathome.com and John 
Palmer author of How to Brew www.howtobrew.com!

The competition will be limited to four subcategories, Categories 6A, 6B and 
6C American Pale Ales and Category 10D American Brown Ale.  Because the 
TechTalk Community asked that the competition be limited to those who can 
participate in TechTalk, you must be an AHA member to enter.  Entry fees are 
$5 for the first entry and $4 for additional entries.  Entry deadline is 
March 12, 2003 and entries should be shipped to:

AHA TechTalk Competition
Care of: Ruddells Custom Print
4853 South Quintero Circle
Aurora, CO 80015

You may send in your registration as a new AHA member with your entry.  Full 
rules and details can be found on our website at 
http://www.foamontherange.org/club_files/techtalkr1.pdf.

Judging will be held in Denver on March 15th, 2003 at 9.30AM.  Please email 
me at hopfenkopf at hotmail.com if you can help judge or steward.

Please email us at info at foamontherange.org if you have any questions.  
Please also forward this email to your fellow club members and anyone else 
you know who may be interested in entering.

Please forgive any cross-posts.

Thanks very much,

Jon Douglas
Foam on the Range
www.foamontherange.org
info at foamontherange.org








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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:00:00 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Vienna Viennas, and noise

Gunnar Emilsson writes:

> The first brew I made was a
> Vienna Lager, S.G. 1.045, using all Vienna malt.

This reminds me of a topic I had been meaning to bring up. In his AHA book,
George Fix mentions malt complexity as being an important part of a good
Vienna. So a question for the experienced, award winning Vienna brewers
(whether you use a $4K system or not): does such a simple malt bill really
produce good results for the style?

Now, a message to those who think the HBD is once again going to heck in a
handbasket simply because we are having a good, old-fashioned tussle over
brewing equipment (which I might add is 100% on topic). If you want to raise
the bar, improve the signal to noise ratio, however you want to think of
it...

Post something positive and brewing related. Complaints about noise will
never be anything but noise. 

And Bill, for what it's worth, I like you. I will probably never agree with
anything you write, but you are a character, and every forum needs some of
those. In fact, since Zamuel went walkabout, rec.crafts.brewing has been
missing an iconoclast. Why not start posting in there? You'll get a lot more
immediate gratification for your argument needs there than you will in a
"chess by mail" forum like the HBD. Say, you wouldn't by chance have
anything bad to say about auto-syphons, would you? ;-)

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:12:22 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Thomas Hardy Returns!!!


Oh Frabjuous Day, Callooh! Callay!  he chortled in his joy!!!!!

News has it that Thomas Hardy is being resurrected! George Saxon, of Phoenix
Imports, just announced that they have purchased the rights to Thomas Hardy
Ale (along with Royal Oak & T. H. Country Bitter) and have reached an
agreement with O'Hanlons Brewery of Devon to brew them - starting with Thomas
Hardy Ale. They anticipate the first release to be this coming August (2003).
To see if he can put it on the HBD website so you can all read it, or email me
& I'll send it on to you.

I almost opened one of my few remaining bottles to celebrate, but restrained
myself at the last moment. I want to have them for side-by-side tasting with
the new beer (once the new one gains a bit of age).

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL










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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:37:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Moses Rocket <mosesrocket at yahoo.com>
Subject: First Wort Hops in Extract Brew

Can First Wort Hops be used successfully in an extract
brew?  It seems to me that the unique flavoring and
bittering gained from FWH may depend on the particular
temperature, pH, and other conditions presented by the
wort as it is being first collected.  

To duplicate these conditions with an extract brew,
you may have to mix your extract with 150 degree F
water, add your First Wort Hops, and let it rest for
30-45 minutes to get similar conditions as first wort
hopping while lautering an all-grain batch.

Or can you just throw in the FW hops while you steep
the pound or so of specialty grains at 150-160 for 30
minutes and acheve the same affect?

What has your experience been?
Pete Spinner





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---