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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Wibble Wibble, Toil and Dribble ("Peter Myers")
  yeast an such ("greg man")
  Fossil Fuel ? (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  Singing to your Yeast (Thomas Rohner)
  Re Same background taste (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Lager Temps,..alc content ? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Bill Wible (Ronald La Borde)
  Where to buy quater/half barrel legal kegs ("Gilbert Milone II")
  Re:Vienna Viennas (Gunnar Emilsson)
  Same background taste in all my beers (take 2) ("Gilbert Milone II")
  hydrometers ("Doug Marion")
  draft boxes ("Doug Marion")
  saving yeast from pitchable tubes (Mark Beck)
  RIMS, finally ("Lou King")
  Re: Same background taste in all my beers (David Towson)
  RE: Toasted Oat Maple Porter results (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Bill, Bill, Bill (John)
  MCAB V Recipe (Nathan Kanous)
  Multi-Part Kits? (rickdude02)


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:00:21 +1100
From: "Peter Myers" <myerspeter at bigpond.com>
Subject: Wibble Wibble, Toil and Dribble

Bill writes;

>Dry yeast is a joke.  Let's not start that again.  If you're
brewing with it, you're the idiot - not me.

    I believe that all those people out there who are brewing with more
expensive ingredients like liquid yeasts should not be allowed to enter a
homebrewing competition. They should step aside and let all us poor people
who can only afford to brew with bird seed and dry yeast have a chance at
winning.
    What do you think Bill? It is along the same parallel as one of your
previous posts. Are you with me on this one?





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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 01:05:13 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: yeast an such


  Has anyone ever used wyeast 3638? It has quite a complex description an 
I'm wondering if those flavors are really produced. Can anyone tell me what 
to expect? temps used to ferment an out come............?

  An Bill for the last time!!!!!!!!
I have a yeast bank of strains, am an all grain, decoction masher. But every 
now an then I like to make an easy extract beer with dry yeast just like I 
did when I started brewing. And you know what, I have very sensitive taste 
bud's an the dry yeast beers are really good!!!
  If you don't believe me then post your address an all of us who are part 
time or full time dry yeast brewers will send you a beer an you can rate 
them for yourself. I would be happy to send you one just to prove you 
wrong......................
gregman






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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:08:20 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: Fossil Fuel ?



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:42:14 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4173 (February 17, 2003)
> 
> However, electricity is produced by first burning fossil fuels,

I didn't realise uranium was a fossil fuel???
Reuben
W.A



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:15:47 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Singing to your Yeast

Hey guys
sing, dance, wear what you want, even naked brewing seems to
be feasible (as long as you don't stirr your wort with your...)
But if you happen to have a radio receiver or a TV-set around,
be careful not to play them GWB.
Keep investing in your equipment, and don't forget to brew and drink
good beer.

Thomas


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:29:02 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re Same background taste

Hi all, hi Gil
i had something similar some years back. You may have found it out,
maybe it's your water. In my case it was the desinfectant i was using
in combination with plastic fermenters. This stuff really had a very
low taste-threshold. I really drained and watered my fermenters, before
filling in the wort. (otherwise the yeast would probably have given up)
I don't think it's your basement, but try to check, whats the same in
every brew.(water, yeast, hops, cleaning agents....)
I was near to give the whole thing up, when i met a brewmaster who told
me to use something different.(he was selling it as well)
Since then, the background tastes are gone.
Good luck  Thomas


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:14:59 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Lager Temps,..alc content ?

darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu writes:

>I am devising a new way to crash cool lagers (cold basement door) and now
>have a remote thermometer taking readings.,...I suppose that there must be
>a predictable relationship between freezing temps and the alcohol content
>of the brew.  Does anyone know of a chart that describes this
>relationship, or how one can determine this?

Sounds like a question on one of the first exams in my freshman 
chemistry class at the University of Michigan, back when buffalo 
roamed the prairies:

"Freddie Freshman left five bottles of beer on his window sill 
overnight.  Their alcohol contents were 3.5%, 3.7%, 3.9%, 4.1% and 
4.3% by weight.  The first two froze, the remaining three did not. 
What was the range of minimum temperatures overnight?"

When I was 18 years old I easily figured that out.  I still can 
remember how, but I don't remember the molal (or is it molar?) 
freezing point depression value.  But that's what you need.  Of 
course, this ignores the freezing depression effect of ~1/2% 
dissolved CO2.

Funny that I can still remember that question nearly 40 years later!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 06:32:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Bill Wible

From: Brew By You Info <info at brewbyyou.net>

>Dry yeast is a joke.  Let's not start that again.  If
>you're brewing with it, you're the idiot - not me.

If others are winning competitions with dry yeast and
you still cannot win with liquid, who is the idiot?

Ron

=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 12:10:23 -0500
From: "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com>
Subject: Where to buy quater/half barrel legal kegs

I'd like to make a new brew kettle, because the clown who welded mine used
non-stainless wire, so it is corroding now. Does anyone know where I could
buy a quater barrell or two from? I would buy a ready made one, but I'm
short on cash and would like to craft my own from all the parts I already
have.
Thanks,
Gil Milone
IN CT


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:11:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Gunnar Emilsson <cdmfed_emilsson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Vienna Viennas

Brian Lundeen inquires about Vienna lagers made with
100% Vienna malt.

I have to say that my experience corresponds with that
of Jim Layton's.  My 100% vienna (ok, it was actually
8 lbs of Vienna with 0.75 lbs of caravienne) was a
nice tasting, a little sweet, but bland beer.  I was
disappointed that it wasn't more malty, even though I
boiled a decoction for 20 minutes.  (It was a big hit
with my Budweiser-swilling friends, though).  Like
Jim, I find that that an Oktoberfest brewed with
roughly 50/50 pils and Munich malts give a much better
malt flavor.

And on that subject, for those who are interested in
capturing that elusive malty but dry flavor, I have
found that a beer brewed with at least 50% Munich malt
that is allowed to sit for a couple of years in the
cellar develops a really nice malt flavor - sort of
like an Aass bock.  For me, it seems to take that time
to lose the sweet flavor from the Munich.  Anybody
else ever notice that?

Gunnar Emilsson
Helena, Montana



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 12:27:52 -0500
From: "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com>
Subject:  Same background taste in all my beers (take 2)

 Thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to check my water chemistry this
week,
 and adjust that accordingly. I entered my scottish ale into a competition
 and received a score of 33 on it. My Oatmeal stout received around 34 pts.
 So there aren't any signifigant off flavors. I really need to try doing
some
 step mashing etc etc. and try to get some more complex flavors into my
 beers.
 Thanks for the help
 -Gil
 In Connecticut (Blizzard CT right now)



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:49:25 -0700
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: hydrometers

I'm curious to hear the collectives experience with hydrometers and their 
accuracy (or lack there of).

I've been using the same hydrometer that I first started brewing with about8 
years ago. Yea, it's the cheap 5.95 one. Who hasn't started with one of 
those.I've never been able to get finish gravities as low as I thought I 
should be getting. (Yea I know, big yeast starters and oxygenate through a 
stone)So the other day I checked my hydrometer with tap and distilled water. 
(I suggest everyone do this if you haven't already) I was shocked! It read 
1.003 to 1.004 in water! So now, with absolutely no confidence in any of my 
gravity readings over the last 8 years, I ordered a laboratory tested 
hydrometer from my supplier. You know, the $20.00 model, thinking this would 
be foolproof. Well, that hydrometer got here today. I checked it first thing 
in distilled and tap water. ( all tests were with water at 60 deg)This 
laboratory hydrometer that is supposedly checked at 1.000 and at least two 
other locations on the scale, read 1.003-1.004 also! I called the supplier 
and they said that is obviously wrong and they are sending me a new
one that I asked them to check first. The second one got here and when I 
checked it, it read 1.002. Way off! Has anybody else experienced anything 
like this? Are all hydrometers that far off?
I just wish I had check my hydrometer a long time ago.
I must have lots of inaccurate data which doesn't please me at all.

Cheers,
Doug
Meridian, Idaho

- --- dsmarion at earthlink.net





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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:52:48 -0700
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: draft boxes


I built my own draft boxes last year using two coolers and two coiled
copper tubings inside. I used FDA rated beer line tubing that I bought
from Beer3 to attach to the copper tubing going in and going out.
I used 1/2" on everything. The other day I wanted to use one of the draft 
boxes. Cleaned it with PBW and Star San sanitizer after last use and again 
the other day before use. Rinsed everything out with hot water. When I 
hooked up and ran my beer through the system it tasted like the tubing! 
Yuck! The beer tasted fine before. So I unhooked it and re-hooked up the 
short party tap that I use all the time and tasted it. Tasted fine. I 
re-hooked it up to the draft box and, yuck, tasted like the beer line tubing 
again. Anyone have a guess? I thought beer line wasn't supposed to release 
any off flavors. Tasteless? Odorless? Yea, right. Am I doing something 
wrong?

Cheers,
Doug


- --- dsmarion at earthlink.net








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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 12:21:23 -0800
From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu>
Subject: saving yeast from pitchable tubes

Has anyone tried saving some of the yeast from Wyeast pitchable tubes right 
in the tube?  By this I mean, you squirt out 1/2 or 1/3 of the yeast from 
the tube to make a starter , and then just put the cap back on.  When you 
want to make another batch in a week or five, you make a starter out of the 
remaining yeast.  It seems like it would be fine to me, but I'm curious if 
anyone out there has tried this, or sees a problem with it that I don't.

I realize that it's probably better to just save some of the yeast out of 
the secondary from the first batch, but I'm curious.

Mark
Walla Walla, WA



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:22:45 -0500
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RIMS, finally

After almost a year of talking (I checked, and my first post to HBD on
the subject was in #3876, Feb 27, 2002), I finally completed
construction of my RIMS on February 9.  I autotuned the controller on
Saturday, and brewed with it Sunday.

Everything went fine, with only a little concern about the mash getting
stuck.  I believe there is a line between pumping too quickly (stuck
mash) and pumping too slowly (scorched wort).  I don't know how fine
that line is, though.  Turning the pump off (to let the weight of the
wort clear out the false bottom), then on seemed to do the trick.

I have also made a first cut at a web site to provide information to
others who are considering this undertaking.  Hopefully, it complements
the other fine web sites on the subject, but I'm open to any suggestions
on how to make the information more helpful.

If you are interested, take a look at
http://lousbrews.tripod.com/rims.htm , and let me know what you think.
I apologize in advance for the size of the pictures (running around 100
kBytes), but I wanted to show reasonable resolution.  If this is a
problem, let me know and I will consider putting the pictures in twice,
one hi res and one low res.

Also, I would like to reference or quote another site I found in my
travels, but now I cannot find it.  The quote that stands out for me is
something like, "you know you are almost done when the last three trips
you made to the hardware store each cost you less than $5.00".  If
anyone knows this reference, please send it to me.

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:27:40 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Same background taste in all my beers

Gilbert Milone recently asked whether others had experienced a common " 
background flavor" in all their beers.

Yes indeed!  When a good friend and I had been brewing for just a short 
time ( independently, not together), we often puzzled over what we called 
the "homebrew taste" of our beers.  This really bugged us.  We finally 
found the cause: poor sanitation.  This took either of two forms, depending 
on the "luck of the draw".

      We either failed to kill the bacteria in some part of our equipment, 
or we failed to get the Chlorine rinsed out after sanitizing with 
bleach.  In other words, we either had infection or chlorophenols in our 
beers.  The solution was to do a better job of sanitizing.  Specifically, 
(1) stop using plastic wherever we could, (2) sanitize by boiling wherever 
we could, (3) replace hoses often if they were used to transport cooled 
wort, and (4) rinse bleach well using a water source that did not include 
possible sources of contamination such as plastic or rubber hoses.  We 
found our practice of storing all our hoses in our plastic fermenter filled 
with bleach solution to be a particularly bad idea, because thorough 
rinsing just seemed to be impossible after such a long-term exposure.

      I still use bleach to sanitize bottles, but I use boiling wherever I 
can, and iodophor for the fermenter.  And I haven't had an infected batch 
for many years, and no chlorophenols either.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:01:45 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Toasted Oat Maple Porter results


Jonathon Royce responded to a post from Jake Isaacs, and said:

>>I recalled that in my conversation with the syrup maker
>>he had stated that the syrup is bottled in a sterile form
>>to ensure that it wouldn't spoil.

One of SWMBO's favorite brews is an amber maple ale that I had
made 4 times, using the syrup differently each time to figure
out the best result. I added maple syrup to the boil, after
the boil, in the secondary, and as priming sugar. When I added
to the secondary and as primings, I pre-sanitized the syrup by
adding to an equal amount of water, bringing it to about 170F 
on the stove for a half hour. These methods all worked well,
and it seemed that the best maple flavor came from using it in
secondary.

So my 5th batch was a 12 gallon batch fermented in 3 5-gal
carboys with different yeasts. They were all fine when racked
to secondary, where I added a pint of maple syrup to each. But
this time I decided that the syrup was already 'sterilized' by
the packaging process or it would ferment in the bottle. So I
just wiped the opening of the bottle with ethanol and flamed 
it, and poured into the secondary. A few weeks later I had the
beginnings of 12 gallons of vinegar.

I can't be sure that the contamination occurred due to the 
maple syrup, but in 80+ batches fermented in the same room,
with several involving additions to the secondary, I've never
before or since had an acetobacter problem. 

Just one data point, and as always, YMMV.

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:29:46 -0800 (PST)
From: John <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bill, Bill, Bill

Friends of Bill W.  gasp in horror as he proclaims
"Dry yeast is a joke.  Let's not start that again.  If
you're
brewing with it, you're the idiot - not me."

Well Bill, I have never won (nor entered) a contest, I
brew an eclectic mix of depression era carboys and a
plastic connical worth less than 200 amd and I make
beers with dry yeast when that is the yeast that gives
me the result I am looking for.  I have been asked on
more than one occassion to brew a demonstration beer
for our local liquor/homebrew supply shop.  My efforts
have been well recieved by the ultimate judge of
quality--not the snob but the average slob.

My mother brought a saying over from the old country.
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
The proof of the brew is in the drinking and sometimes
liquid yeast is not worth the time, trouble and
expense when a dry yeast makes a fine brew.

If you want to limit yourself go head on but don't
think that those who do not think like you are idiots.
That my friend is unamerican.
In closing just remember:
Degustabus non est despudatum.

John
(a little northwest and a few hundred miles from the
prime renierian)




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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:48:31 -0800
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: MCAB V Recipe

Hello,
Nope, I didn't win.  Yes, I qualified 2 beers for the MCAB, of which I am 
quite proud.  I did get a third place in the wheat beer category at MCAB 
V.  I looked and have recorded a 10 gallon recipe but I'm sure I only made 
5 gallons.  This is a somewhat "nontraditional" approach to this beer.

I've tried this beer with Lactobacillus acidophilus and it tasted kind of 
like yogurt.  Not terrible but not exactly what I was looking for.

3.5 lbs American Malted Wheat
3.5 lbs German Pilsner Malt
5 gallons OG 1.032
0.5 oz Crystal hops

I mashed in at about 152 degrees in a picnic cooler and closed the 
lid.  The next morning I opened the cooler and tossed in a handful of 
malt.  I covered the top of the mash with Saran Wrap to reduce oxygen 
contact.  One week later (yes, 7 days) I transferred the mash to my mash 
tun and warmed it to "mash out" temp and sparged.  I added 0.5 oz of 
Crystal hops and warmed the wort to about 190 degrees for 15 
minutes.   Counterflow chilled to 65 deg F.

I pitched a healthy starter of Wyeast 2525 (German Ale / Kolsch) and 
allowed it to ferment to completion.  After a couple of weeks in this 
primary I tasted the beer and although I was happy with it, it still was 
missing a little something.  I had a culture laying around from a bottle of 
Orval...it was a very distinctly "lemony" bottle of Orval that was quite 
nice.   I pitched that starter into the wort and left it for about 3 weeks 
and bottled it.

The beer at time of judging is about 2 years old.  To me, it tastes a bit 
like "Gueuze Light".  I will be making it again at a higher 
gravity.....with the Orval culture and I'll leave it in a permeable 
fermenter for a longer period of time to get a bit more brett and a bit 
more sourness....if I leave the dregs of a bottle of my Orval clone out for 
a couple of days it gets pretty sour.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Unconventional brewing on a system 
cobbled together of parts I could get anywhere for as low a price as I 
could.  Lucky?  Yeah.....it was a crap shoot all the way but I'm happy with 
the beer and it's results.

Any questions, just let me know.

Brewing unconventionally and by the seat of my pants in Madison, WI
nathan



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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:50:30 -0500 (GMT)
From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net
Subject: Multi-Part Kits?

Hello August Brewing Collective!

I don't know if this will meet the non-commercial standards, but I
figured I'd try anyway...

My new distributor has asked me about the viability of his core 
product line here in the States.  Essentially he sells extracts, 
but not the standard one-can, one-beer type of thing.  He has a 
line of extracts and a line of hop extracts (aroma oils, alpha 
acids, etc.) that the homebrewer would combine to create different 
beers.

Imagine yourself adding 200g of this can, 400g of that can, and 
100g of the other can, then boiling and adding 2cc of this 
extract, and 4cc of the other extract.  In this way, he tells me, 
a narrow line of extracts can be set up to make over 50 styles of 
beer.

It seems to work well in Germany, but I can't imagine how such a 
system would do here.  What do ya'll think?  Should I dissuade him 
from trying to hop the pond?

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.


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