---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Bill Wible ("Asher Reed")
  Competition! ("Braam Greyling")
  beer engine/minikeg (Teresa Knezek)
  Fossil Fuel ("Bill Slats, CEO")
  Re: Flavoring extracts (Thomas Rohner)
  Old Ale (Hayes Antony)
  re: Alright... ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Mash heating and enzyme denaturing ("Groenigen,  J.W. van")
  Water analysis ("Braam Greyling")
  HBD Server Fund (Bill Wible)
  Re: hydrometers (Jeff Renner)
  Weiss Bier ("Eyre")
  Brewing woes and success (Calvin Perilloux)
  re: flavoring extracts (Robert Marshall)
  RTD/thermocouple probes cheap ("Reddy, Pat")
  RE: Where to buy quater/half barrel legal kegs ("Mike Sharp")
  Newbie lager questions ("Charles Brandt")
  RE: Brewing woes and sucess - II ("Houseman, David L")
  Yeast Lab W51 - anyone have a source? ("Jay Wirsig")
  Re:  Yeast taste.. (Bill Tobler)
  Re: saving yeast from pitchable tubes ("Steve Stanley")
  Pete's Brewing--Chocolates? ("Jodie Davis")
  Re:Vienna Viennas ("David Houseman")


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:01:54 +0000
From: "Asher Reed" <clvwpn5 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bill Wible 

I agree with Bill now -- we've all taken our shots at him... lets let it go 
now, it was fun while it lasted.  Arguing about yeast, technique, and 
equipment is a fruitless argument -- everyone has their own philosophy on 
how to make the beer that they like to drink -- and there is no right or 
wrong.  These silly type of issues come up in mead making also -- yeast, 
boil, pasteurize or no boil, sulfite or no sulfite.  If you like your 
results then stick with it, if you don't like your results or if you like to 
experiment then try something else.



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:48:00 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Competition!

Hi all, 

The TDRBC asked to pass this on:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Drunk Redneck Texas Brew Club are having a competition.

You are invited to send your best brews to the address that will 
follow next week.

6 bottles of each brew. Unlimited categories. 

Huge prizes to be won like Double barrel shotguns, Truck fenders etc. 
etc. 

Unfortunately if you are not a microbrewer or your equipment is not 
worth at least $2000, you are not allowed to enter. 
We have good taste, and cannot accommodate bad beers. 

:-)


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
JOKING !!!!



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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:59:18 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: beer engine/minikeg

OK... I finally brewed a batch of ale I thought would be worthy of my 
beer engine, and finally figured out that K.I.S.S. works just as well 
on brewing hardware as it does everywhere else... and it worked great.

Ingredients:
	1 - British beer engine
	1 - 5L minikeg with built-in pull-twist spout
	1 - reusable rubber bung with plastic center plug
	1 - vinyl hose with ID matching beer engine connector (should 
reach from engine to the floor)
	1 - semi-rigid plastic tube with OD matching diameter of keg 
bung plug (for tapping the keg - get two feet to be on the safe side)
	1 - double-ended plastic hose barb connector, one side 
matching ID of tap tube, one side matching ID of vinyl hose
	2 - plastic zip-ties (for sealing connection at each end of vinyl hose)

So, you take the semi-rigid plastic hose (it should have a 
perma-curve from the dispensing spool at the hardware store) and 
shove it through the rubber bung, to determine what length is needed 
to let it rest at the far bottom edge of the minikeg. Cut it off with 
about an inch to spare, and attach it to your hose barb fitting.

If you've gotten the right size hose barb connector, and the same 
type of plastic tap line I did, the tap is NEVER coming off the 
connector... no need for a zip tie there.

It's all self explanatory at that point, right? Hook the vinyl hose 
up at both ends, zip tie it if you detect leakage (test by pulling 
some nice clean water or sanitizer through the engine), lay the 
minikeg on its side, pull-spout pointed up, open said spout to act as 
your air vent, shove the tap tube into the keg until it hits the 
bottom back corner, and dispense your lovely ale in proper Real Ale 
style. :-)

Man, that creamy beer engine head beats the pants off a pressurized 
CO2 keg any day... ;-) (IMHO, of course... don't want to start a 
fight! hehe)
- -- 
:: Teresa ::
http://www.mivox.com/

When tempted to fight fire with fire,
remember that fire departments generally use water.


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:17:34 -0700
From: "Bill Slats, CEO" <PISS at comcast.net>
Subject: Fossil Fuel

Of course it is.  Everyone knows that Uranium comes 
from Uranus so is by definition carbon based.  Has 
to be a fossil fuel!

>Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:08:20 +0800
>From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell 
<filsell at myplace.net.au>
>Subject: Fossil Fuel ?
[snip]
> However, electricity is produced by first burning fossil fuels,
>I didn't realise uranium was a fossil fuel???
>Reuben
>W.A

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, 
in water there is
bacteria. - German Proverb



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:31:33 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Flavoring extracts

Hi Todd
i brew raspberry wheats regularly. I usually used fresh berries. But
i freeze them to bust the cells. Then i heat them to 65 celsius for
20 minutes. I add them after one week. I use only 1.7 to 1.8 kg for
50l. This gives a very subtle aroma.
Once i ordered one of those fravoring extracts. It said all natural,
but it tasted "chemical". I never do this again. Maybe there are
better extracts out there. I threw my remaining ones away.
It's not funny to ruin a allgrain batch (8 hours) with something 
like this.

Thomas


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:32:28 +0200
From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za>
Subject: Old Ale

My wife should give birth in April to twins.  I have been thinking that
instead of the traditional case of Cabernet Sauvignon, it might be nice to
crack a case of beer for their 21st.

The oldest beer that I have brewed is a four year old gueuze, but I am not
sure that gueuze has wide enough appeal for a family party.

I suspect that an Old Ale might do the trick, but was wondering if anyone
had any tips for a beer that has to survive a 21 year haul?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg



Confidentiality Warning
=======================
The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation
are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone
other than the addressee is strictly prohibited.



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:06:33 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Alright...

Bill,

Ya done good, my man. Not everyone is willing to stand up and admit their
error, especially after defending it so long & vigorously. I think a lot of
these kinds of arguments could be settled much more satisfactorily over a
couple of beers, but we don't have that luxury online.

As to your offer to send a pack of dry yeast.... I typically use liquid yeast,
but keep dry yeast around as a back up for the occasional starter disaster or
for that 'hey, I can brew TODAY' unplanned brewsession, and have had very good
results. So instead of sending me a packet of dry yeast, send a check to the
HBD Server Fund for any amount you'd like, equal to or above the cost of a
yeast packet.

When deciding on the amount, keep in mind that I could have posted this
suggestion to the HBD.... probably everyone on the list would have said, yeah
send a donation for me too. I figure that your cost of yeast & shipping is
less than $1, but multiply that by the many folks on the list that would
respond & the cost of an equivalent donation could be huge (Ooops, did I
ACCIDENTALLY send this to the HBD too? Sorry 'bout that).

Just kidding, but go ahead and make a donation for any amount you feel
appropriate. The HBD is an awesome resource for all of us and the community
that's grown up around it is truly amazing.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL

ps - I'll be sending in a donation myself, and also getting the Hogtown
Brewers to send one as well. Our website is hosted by the HBD in the clubs
section, that alone is worth some $$. If each of the many clubs  hosted there
sent in even a small donation, it would help Pat buy new memory, hard drives,
backup, etc & cover the other costs for keeping this running. Just think of
your anxiety on those occasional days when the HBD is down (come on, I know
I'm not the only one)....  If we all think of the entertainment & educational
value, and send in the cost of a movie or brewing book, it'll add up.

So, go get your checkbook and send a donation made payable to Pat Babcock to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309







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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:15:36 +0100
From: "Groenigen, J.W. van" <J.W.vanGroenigen at Alterra.wag-ur.nl>
Subject: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing


Hi all,

we had a discussion on our Dutch forum on mash heating. It is suggested in a
lot of brewing resources that you shouldn't raise your mash temp with more
than about 1 degree Celcius per minute, because otherwise the enzymes may
denature. Now, why is that exactly? Is it because the HEAT RISE ITSELF is
harmful to the enzymes (and why, then)? Or is it because during a faster
heat rise local hot-spots will develop (> about 72 C, say) that will
denature the enzymes.
In other words: if you had somehow found a way to heat the mash without
creating any hot spots, would it then be possible to heat the mash much
faster?

I tried to find the answer on the HBD archive, but I wasn't able to find it.

Take care,

Jan Willem van Groenigen
Wageningen, the Netherlands




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:27:55 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Water analysis

Hi all,

Is there someone who can help with an analysis of a friend of mine's 
water supply ?
He is having pH problems so I asked him to get specifications on the 
water supply he is using. 

If someone volunteers, Ill send the data , don't want to clutter the 
HBD with it. 

Best regards
Braam 




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:27:30 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: HBD Server Fund


> send a check to the HBD Server Fund for any amount you'd
>like

I already told Pat I was planning to contribute to the
HBD server fund this year.

I'm moving my store to a new location as of March 1st,
less than 2 weeks out now.  I have lots of bills to pay
right now, many unexpected things I didn't plan for.

I think maybe by the end of the summer, but I do plan
to support these guys, even if I just send in $100.

Pat, make sure you hold me to this!

I fully support HBD, I also have a link to the HBD site
from my site.

Thanks

Bill



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:34:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: hydrometers

"Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> wrote from Merrickville, Ontario

> Where does one get a super-accurate
> hydrometer?  All I can find at the LHBS are the cheap $10 kind.

I've been happy with the inexpensive one from the LHBS BUT, I tested
their whole stock (maybe a dozen) with tap water (no need for distilled
with the accuracy we're talking about) at the proper temperature.  The
range was quite amazing, as I recall from 0.997 to 1.004 or
thereabouts.  I assumed that the paper scale was properly calibrated,
so that if I got 1.000, it would be accurate within the entire range.

Of course, you have to have a willing shop owner for this.  What's he
going to do after you've shown him that most of his hydrometers are off?

Jeff



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:21:25 -0500
From: "Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Weiss Bier

I just bought a 6 of this new (to me..) Sam Adams "Weiss Beir" (only because
I'm 5 days away from my own brew.. darn bottling/carbonating lag time!) a
couple days ago. It's an unfilterd thing.. and, well.. I had two over the
past couple days, and I just don't like it that much. It's all fruity
tasting and goes down like water. Is this how they're "supposed" to be? Is
this a good interpretation of the style (an style? Any style in
particular?)? Am I simply mad, because I don't like it? :) I'm usually a
Stout/Guiness sorta guy, so that's where my preference usually goes.. but
it's rare for me to simply not LIKE a beer. It's beer, afterall! ;)

Mike

Please note my new email address:

meyre at sbcglobal.net



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:15:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brewing woes and success

Chris's brewing notes:

>> I decided to try a batch of beer using 1.5kg of honey with a 
>> cheap can of extract... At bottling it tasted fine although 
>> a little sweet, summer in Aus can be vicious and i made the 
>> mistake of leaving the bottles out in the sun for more than 
>> a few days...  After a month they tasted suspiciouse so i 
>> visited my LHBS and they confirmed it was infected - 
>> describing a taste of rubber ??

No.  Not infected.  More on that later.

So you left them in the SUN?!?  Why?!  I'd be surprised that 
they didn't reek of skunk, but I've done that before as a test 
in the Australian sun, and the stench moderates over time in
darkness, believe it or not.  (We had a beer tasting once
where I was severely disappointed at the LACK of skunkiness 
from samples I'd "irradiated" some weeks before and then left
in a warm back room.)

What you're getting with that "rubber" taste is probably:

(1) the remains of the skunkiness from sulfur compounds in 
the mercaptans created by that sunlight.  (Do mercaptans/
methane-/butane-thiols actually break down in beer?  Anyone
know?)
 
(2) the dead yeast, autolysing after being blasted by hot sunlight.

But note that if you're in Oz, you probably haven't smelled a proper
pole-cat before anyway, lucky you!  We'll ask the boys at Burradoo
to forward you some samples if they have any left.  :-)  So it might 
be unadulterated skunkiness that the LHBS and you are taking as 
"rubber".  But it's doubtful that it's an infection causing that.

>> i have boiled the extract can in the past but the LHBS 
>> dont't feel it is beneficial as you boil out the hop oils 
>> and loose bitterness and arome...

How about "lose aroma" only.  I doubt you'd lose bitterness,
since the bittering alpha acids are not boiled out.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:27:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at pacbell.net>
Subject: re: flavoring extracts

Hi Todd,

Hoptech sells fruit flavoring extracts that they claim
are used by several microbrews. They've got several
flavors, including a Blackberry that they they just
added!! <blackberry stout here I come>

Here's their URL:
https://hoptech.com/index2.html?https://hoptech.com/flavors.html
(the line may wrap. It should be all on one line I
believe)

Per the custom: I have no financial relationship with
them, only a customer!

Happy Brewing everyone,

Robert
- ---------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 01:20:16 -0800
> From: Todd Kenna <Todd_K at cats.ucsc.edu>
> Subject: Flavoring extracts
> 
> Has anyone used fruit flavoring extracts in their
> beers?  Do they instill a 
> "chemical" or "fake" flavor as opposed to real
> fruit?
> any recommended brands/sources/flavors?
> 
> 			Thanks
> 				Todd


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:34:55 -0600
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc>
Subject: RTD/thermocouple probes cheap

Fellow RIMS/HERMS brewers....
I found this great site that custom makes stainless thermocouple and RTD
probes at great prices. They'll even custom make the probe to fit whatever
orifice you're dealing with. Check them out and drop them a line.  Tell them
I sent you.

Link: 
http://www.temp-probes.com

Pat Reddy


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:05:54 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Where to buy quater/half barrel legal kegs

Gilbert Milone II asked where to buy quater/half barrel legal kegs:

"I'd like to make a new brew kettle, because the clown who welded mine used
non-stainless wire, so it is corroding now. "

He might have used stainless wire, but didn't passivate the weld afterwards
(and you probably didn't ask for it either).  If you wirebrush the corrosion
completely off (using a new, stainless, wire brush), you might be able to
save your old barrel.  I've always passivated with hot nitric acid, but I'm
reasonably sure there are other, more accessible ways.  Phosphoric acid,
perhaps?  Anyone know?  You'll want to avoid corrosive acids like HCL.
Freshly welded stainless will probably passivate itself if left for a couple
weeks in a cool dry place.  

One way to avoid the issue, more or less, is to use weldless fittings.  But
the cut opening is vulnerable too, so passivation is recommended in any
case.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:51:19 -0500
From: "Charles Brandt" <chuckuiuc at illinoisalumni.org>
Subject: Newbie lager questions

I've been a daily HBD lurker and greatly appreciate the range of advice 
and opinions expressed by the community.

Having recently acquired a fridge (w/new external temp controller), I 
have some basic 5 gal. lagering questions/concerns:

1. if I pitch my yeast at ~65F, how quickly should I drop the temp to 
the optimum fermentation temp of ~52F?

2. once transferred to the secondary, what's the best rate for dropping 
from ~65F to a lagering temp of ~36F?

3. being beer-greedy & impatient, I'd like to be able to make a couple 
of lagers with the same fridge and not have to wait 2-3 months between 
batches.  How much trouble will I create for myself if, while lagering 
a CAP at ~36F I up the temp to 50-60F to initiate a Bock fermentation 
for ~1 week, and then drop the temp back down to 36F to lager both?

Chuck

[193, 88] apparent Rennerian
Aka Pittsburgh
                 


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:15:22 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Brewing woes and sucess - II

Chris says: "...At bottling it tasted fine although a little sweet, summer
in Aus can be 
vicious and i made the mistake of leaving the bottles out in the sun for 
more than a few days.  After a month they tasted suspiciouse so i visited my
LHBS and they 
confirmed it was infected - describing a taste of rubber ??..."

A hopped ale out in the sun for more than a few days?  This sounds like a
recipe for skunking a beer rather than an infection...but it certainly could
be that as well.  A control bottle kept out of the light might help
determine if it's really an infection or skunking.

Dave




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:06:31 -0500
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at usa.dupont.com>
Subject: Yeast Lab W51 - anyone have a source?

A few years ago I made a great weizen using Yeast Lab W51.  I have never
been able to duplicate these results using WYeast Wiehenstephen Wheat.  I'm
trying to find a source for this Yeast Lab product - can anyone help?  I
found the following on the HBD web site:

Yeast Lab W51 Bavarian Weizen This strain produces a classic German style
wheatbeer, with moderately high, spicy phenolic overtones reminiscent of
cloves.
Medium attenuation, moderately flocculant. Evidently much more consistent
than Wyeast at producing a true Weizen flavor.



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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:41:07 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  Yeast taste..

Mike made an apple wine (drink?) in just a few weeks, but it has a yeast
bite.  Mike, I think to make a good apple wine, you need more time.  (I
didn't do that on purpose, I swear!)  I'm about 10 days into one myself.  I
got a great recipe and instructions from Jack Keller's web site, Winemaking
Home Page.  http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp

The recipe goes something like one gallon of pasteurized apple juice, 1.25
lbs. of table sugar, 1tsp acid blend, 1 2/3 tsp. pectic enzyme, 1 crushed
Campden tablet, 1/4-1/2 tsp. tannin, 1-1/2 tsp. yeast nutrient and 1 pkt
Champagne wine yeast.

The instructions from the web site are:

In a primary, stir in sugar until completely dissolved. Add acid blend, 1/4
teaspoon tannin, yeast nutrient, and crushed Campden tablet. Stir well,
cover primary and set aside for 12 hours. Stir in pectic enzyme and recover
primary. After additional 12 hours, add activated yeast and recover primary.
Stir daily for 10 days, keeping covered. Taste wine to determine tannin
adequacy. If not adequate, stir in 1/8 teaspoon additional tannin and set
aside 4 hours. Taste again to determine if another 1/8 teaspoon is required.
When satisfied, rack into gallon secondary and fit airlock. Any additional
wine can be poured into small bottle for topping up later and airlocked
using #2 or #3 bung. Rack, top up and refit airlock every 60 days for 6
months. Stabilize, sweeten if desired and wait 2 weeks. Rack into bottles
and set aside one year

So, you can drink your wine in about a year and 6 months.

To keep this post related, I kegged my American Larger last night and force
carbonated.  Came out great.  I have a great Steam beer on tap too.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:12:38 -0500
From: "Steve Stanley" <hombre at spitfire.net>
Subject: Re: saving yeast from pitchable tubes

    What seems to me to be a great idea, posed as a question from Mark Beck,
on 2/18/03 seems to have been ignored by the homebrew genii.


    >Has anyone tried saving some of the yeast from Wyeast pitchable tubes
right
    >in the tube?  By this I mean, you squirt out 1/2 or 1/3 of the yeast
from
    >the tube to make a starter , and then just put the cap back on.  When
you
    >want to make another batch in a week or five, you make a starter out of
the
    >remaining yeast.  It seems like it would be fine to me, but I'm curious
if
    >anyone out there has tried this, or sees a problem with it that I
don't.


    If you are creating a starter which will ultimately contain an ample
supply of yeast for pitching to your fermentor, why use the entire contents
of an expensive yeast tube to create this starter? Maybe it would require
more time to create the quantity of starter needed by using fewer cells,
but does this create any problems other than timing?

    If there is something wrong with his idea, please post the answer, so
that we may all learn. If the experts among this digest's readers find
no problem with his idea, and are not heavily invested in yeast stocks,
then give the man the credit he deserves.

 Steve
Middletown, IN




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:20:38 -0500
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: Pete's Brewing--Chocolates?

The March 2003 issue of Chocolatier magazine reports that Pete Slosberg,
creator of Pete's Wicked Ale, is now making chocolate in his new
business Coca Pete's Chocolate Adventures. Of particular interest to us
is Pete's take on malted milk balls Maltimus Maximus made with brewer's
malt. His aim is to raise the standard of chocolate for the masses. Of
course the chocolates are only available in California and not through
mail order so we Easterners will have to wonder until the next trip to
San Fran.

http://cocoapetes.com/


Jodie Davis
Northern Georgia




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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:23:42 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:Vienna Viennas

I've found that some home-toasted malt makes an excellent addition to
Viennas.  Simply take a pound (or so) of pale or pils malt and put it on a
cookie sheet in your oven at about 350oF.  Watch it and turn the grain
occasionally.  You don't want this to get too dark (it will, you could end
up with chocolate malt).  15-20min should be fine.  You can also tell by the
aroma.  Wonderful, toasted malt aroma.  When you're done, take it out and
let it cool.  Put in zip-lock baggie for a week or more to rest.  Then just
use this as you would any other malt.  This and Vienna malt is all I use for
a Vienna-style beer and I think it's pretty good.

Dave Houseman



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---