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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Beer Engines and Minikegs (Teresa Knezek)
  Idiots Unite! ("Rob Moline")
  re: Dilution of wort - IBU calcs (Jonathan ROyce)
  re: passivation ("Haborak, Kevin")
  Re: : Whilpooling and Wort Transfer Question ("Pete Calinski")
  Pete's Malted Milk Balls ("Jodie Davis")
  Piraat yeast ("Jason Henning")
  HERMS redux - the Juan Valdez method ("K. Gold or G. McLane")
  Re:  Whirlpooling and Wort Transfer Question (Bill Tobler)
  Re: extended secondary and bottle conditioning (Jeff Renner)
  passivating stainless steel ("Jim Dunlap")
  V-wire spacing ("Stephen Cavan")
  Re: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing ("Martin Brungard")
  Yeast Taste ("Andrew Moore")
  various and sunder. ("Dr. Pivo")
  RE: Whirlpooling and Wort Transfer ("Bob Hewitt")
  Re: Fruit Flavorings (Bill Wible)
  Stainless Passivation (Chuck Doucette)
  fruit flavor and lagering two beers (Marc Sedam)
  Re: saving yeast from pitchable tubes (Mark Beck)
  Boil Gravity -> Original Gravity (darrell.leavitt)
  Old grains and Guinness bottles? (MJHarper)
  2003 South Shore Brewoff - competition announcement (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI)
  Re.Aroma Hopping ("Patrick Hughes")
  Re.Energy Sources ("Patrick Hughes")
  Stability test ("Patrick Hughes")


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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:28:13 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing

J.W. van Groenigen asks ...,

>we had a discussion on our Dutch forum on mash heating. It is suggested in
a
>lot of brewing resources that you shouldn't raise your mash temp with more
>than about 1 degree Celcius per minute, because otherwise the enzymes may
>denature. Now, why is that exactly? Is it because the HEAT RISE ITSELF is
>harmful to the enzymes (and why, then)? Or is it because during a faster
>heat rise local hot-spots will develop (> about 72 C, say) that will
>denature the enzymes.

It's not the rate of heating, it's the instantaneous temperature that
determines the rate of denaturation.    Denaturation rate is just like most
chemical reactions rates with an e^-(E/RT) temperature dependence  [the
exponent letters stand for:  E - energy of the denaturing reaction, R - the
gas constant, T - the absolute temperature].  There is no (dT/dt) rate of
temperature change term.

>In other words: if you had somehow found a way to heat the mash without
>creating any hot spots, would it then be possible to heat the mash much
>faster?

Exactly.   The hot spots are regions where the denaturation rate is higher.
We want heat to flow evenly into the entire mash and heat is transferred
(flows) only by radiation, convection or conduction.    For radiation I've
played with small microwave mashes and it works but there may be issues
there and home microwaves still cause hot-spots and are underpowered.
Convection with stirrers & pumps (HERMS, RIMS) is very effective at
preventing hot spots.   Thermal conductivity of the mash can't be altered
much, but having a good thermal conducting mash tuns (aluminum & copper but
not stainless) helps prevent surface transfer hot-spots from direct heaters.
Also heating the mash through a larger surface area helps reduce excess
localized heating.  RIMS electric heating elements are a serious problem
since they transfer all the heat through a very small surface area - this is
compensated by the high levels of convection afforded by the pump.

- --
I don't think that denaturing enzymes is a serious problem unless you have a
high percentage of adjunct.

Pale malt always has plenty of alpha-amylase, so the 'trick' is to get
enough work out of the beta-amylase to get the fermentability you want.
For modern malts there is usually little need for mash rests below the
saccharification range (<60C).  If you mash-in at the low saccharification
range (60C-65C) and rest till you have enough fermentability from the
beta-amylase, then there is little worry that a fast boost to higher
temperatures will cause any difficulty - even if hot-spots do appear.
There is so much alpha amylase in any pale malt that it would be difficult
to prevent a successful completion of the mash after the low
saccharification rest.

If you do decide to mash-in below 60C then I would be careful to avoid hot
spots till you are have set the fermentability after the low
saccharification rest.

Hot spots can also turn into scorch spots and that is a serous flavor
problem.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:22:12 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re: Beer Engines and Minikegs

On or thereabout 2/21/03, Request Address Only - No Articles spoke thusly:
>A beer engine sucks the beer out of the keg and the keg's tap
>should have little restriction so as to prevent premature foaming.

I found the 5/8" ID hose works great. Because of the lack of 
pressure, the beer engine also needs to produce a certain amount of 
foam, or you get flat-looking gravity feed type beer.

>I am having a good time with it.  You have to drink a lot of beer to
>properly test a beer engine.

Darn straight you do. I've decided to take the last 1/2 case of rye 
ale I have in bottles, and pour it all into my minikeg, so I can test 
the engine some more this weekend.

One feature I noticed on my engine, which you ought to think about 
doing, is the foam 'can cooler' type insulating sleeve around the 
cylinder. Since 1/2 pint of beer sits in the cylinder waiting for you 
to pour the next pint, it's a good idea to insulate it to keep a bit 
of a chill on the liquid.
- -- 
:: Teresa ::
http://www.mivox.com/

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I
have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance
to the first."
	-- Ronald Reagan


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 00:34:33 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Idiots Unite!

			Idiots Unite!

>Dry yeast is a joke.  Let's not start that again.  If you're
>brewing with it, you're the idiot - not me....
>Bill Wible

     Dry yeast is just another tool in the kitbag, mate...one that many have
come to count on for reliability and convenience.
     Sitting here tonight sipping a "Big 12 Barleywine" made by the Ames'
Brewers League as a club brew, with Nottingham dry yeast.... convenience and
reliability are not a concern.....just enjoying this lovely brew, what other
concerns could I have?

     But Mr. Wible, it might be of interest for you to learn that a brewer
in the UK has done a trick that might befuddle you. Verify this....
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-62213/gbbf02.htm
     Graham Trott, of the Triple FFF Brewing Company from Fourmarks, near
Alton, Hampshire, England.....scored high marks  at  the GBBF, Olympia, London
2002. Graham established his brewery in 1997 on a very small scale and has
worked his volume up to an 18 bbl brewlength.
     Naming his brews after rock songs, his "Pressed Rat and Warthog" won
the Gold Medal in the Mild Category and "Moondance" won Gold for Best
Bitter.
     "Moondance" also received a Bronze for "Supreme Champion Beer of
Britain," behind two national breweries, a really fantastic achievement for
a micro brewery, which Graham is really proud about.
     Both beers were brewed using Danstar Nottingham Yeast and
Servomyces.....

     So dry yeast is for idiots? Lets unite!

     If you have an award winning brew with Danstar yeasts.....Why don't you
send me your information...including details of your brew, award, etc, so
that I can include them for submission for a webpage? Full attributions,
etc...and we can help other idiots....
     If any LHBS owners would like to have their shop listed as a supplier
of Danstar yeasts, please forward their shop details, addresses, webpage
links, phone numbers, etc....

     If being an idiot includes winning GBBF Golds for Mild and Best Bitter,
and placing with a 3rd in "Supreme Champion Beer of Britain"...

     I guess us idiots will just have to live with the shame....(snif).....

Cheers!
Rob Moline
Lallemand

     Lallemand Scholarship Opportunities Arrive Soon!

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 2/18/2003



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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:31:42 -0800
From: Jonathan ROyce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: re: Dilution of wort - IBU calcs 

Joseph Passante wants to boil 8 gallons and dilute to 10. His question is "how 
does the boiled water that I dilute my wort with at the end of boil affect the 
calculated IBU?  Is it a percent reduction?" 
 
I suspect that the brewing software asks somewhere for the boil volume and the 
finished volume (like the HBD Recipator--http://www.hbd.org/recipator). If this 
is the case, it has probably already figured out the dilution factor, but if 
not the answer to the question is yes. The equations work like this: 
 
IBU = (alpha acid%)(utilization)(mass)(75)/(final volume) 
 
where utilization is a function of the SG of the boil. 
 
The utilization factor takes into account the higher gravity of the 
concentrated wort, while the IBU calc takes into account the volume of the 
fermentation. 
 
If you calculated the IBUs as if you were making an 8 gallon batch, then you 
could recalculate for a 10 gallon batch by multiplying by 0.8 (8/10). 
 
Jeff Palmer provides a good (and more detailed) explanation of all this in his 
book: 
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:18:36 -0800
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: re: passivation

Mike,  

All acids are corrosive, assuming you have the same amount of acid mixed in
the same amount of water phosphoric is much more corrosive than HCl
(muratic).  Probably the most accessible weaker acids will be carbonic acid
(any soda), citric (lemon juice) or lactic acid from the LHBS.

Also, you could dilute any of the stronger acids so that they will be less
corrosive than the weaker acids.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:13:31 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: : Whilpooling and Wort Transfer Question

Well, I'll probably get struck my lightning for admitting this but......

When I brewed yesterday, I had the same problem.   It was the hops pellets
that had escaped through the hop bag.  They plugged up the spigot.  To
loosen them, I put a piece of tubing on the hose barb and blew back through
the spigot.  It took quite a bit of force, held for many seconds before they
broke loose.  When they did, I got a great burst of exhaled air to oxygenate
the wort.

No HSA fears since the wort was already chilled.  Sanitation????  Well, most
of the air was probably from the dead space in my mouth and trachea and
never in my lungs.

Relax, have a homebrew.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:35:04 -0500
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: Pete's Malted Milk Balls


>I saw the posting about Pete's Malted Choco balls,
>which is not new to the market. Briess Malting has them since
>years and send'd them to customers.

>Fred Scheer
>Brewsbrothers.net

Hey Fred,

I'm the one who posted that. I received an email from Pete himself
yesterday. Evidently someone forwarded my message to him.

Here's what he said:
"Roger Briess, who passed away, about a year ago, was a friend and
always passed out malted milk balls.  I wanted to honor him by using his
malts."

He also said he makes his malt "crunchies" from a mix of two powders
from Briess. And that they are hoping for distribution on the east coast
in 2004.
I'm ready!

Jodie Davis
Canton, Georgia



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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:02:33 -0500
From: "Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: Piraat yeast

Hey all-

I'm wanting to do a Belgian strong ale. One of my faves is Piraat. Is there
any reason to think that the brown ring in the bottom of the bottle is
anything but their normal fermenting yeast?

Cheers,
Jason Henning

47ms from Jeff Renner on the super highway




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:06:43 -0500
From: "K. Gold or G. McLane" <ktgold at umich.edu>
Subject: HERMS redux - the Juan Valdez method 

Gals and Gents,
So this is the story...
I'm building myself a better brewery right now, and have decided on some
form of HERMS (see previous post from 2/7/03).  A buncha folks gave me some
great input, some of which was a bit discouraging but all of which was
helpful, so I've gone off in many directions, scribbled lots of ideas,
yadda yadda.  I was directed to the website of a fellow who built a nice
HERMS set-up called the HERMIT, in which the recirc coil is housed in a
bucket of pumped, temp-controlled heated water
(http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/index.html; careful, this guy REALLY
hates barbed fittings.  You have been warned.)

Fast forward: tinkering around in my basement, I found an old percolating
(not drip) coffee maker, about 3 gallons, 1090 W.  Simple as dirt, just an
aluminum bucket with a heating element in the base, attached to a gizmo I
think is called a thermister (turns off the element when a certain
temperature is reached - yer coffee's done).  So I took off the gizmo,
wired it up with a torchiere lamp dimmer, and viola, the thing heats water
real nice, up to boiling (though it smokes a bit and the lamp dimmer gets
kinda hot.)  The lamp dimmer is rated to 500 W.  I did some tests with a
copper 3/8" coil of about 8' long, and got a delta T of 43 deg when the
entering water was cold and the tank water was 124 degr, but of about 10
deg when the entering circ water was 130 deg and the tank water was 146
deg.  I'm guessing this would be some kind of asymmtotic (sp?) curve,
giving me decreasing delta T's as the water gets hotter.  One nice thing
about this device is that I don't need a pump...the water convects very
well, since the element is a little well at the bottom - sorta
percolates...go figure.  I can almost see the little water vectors curving
up and down.  

Here're my electrically-challenged questions:
 -Am I going to burn out the dimmer?  Am I asking for a nice little
electrical fire?
 -I have another torchiere...if I hook up two 500W dimmers in series, do I
get 1000W capacity?
 -When I hook this thing up to my Johnson Controls temp controller (don't
have the specs on it handy) am I in any danger of burning out my controller?
 -Has anyone had experience, good and bad, with this set-up? (I did a search
on the HBD for this, but only found sparging ideas for coffee makers)

Yes, yes, GFCI, yeah I know...

Greg McLane
5 minutes east on Dexter, if I drive real fast and don't get stuck behind
that geezer in the K-car, Apparent Rennarian
    



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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:34:49 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:  Whirlpooling and Wort Transfer Question

Michael posted yesterday that he's having trouble "Getting the wort out"  as
we sometimes say.  Using a drain valve in the kettle and pellet hops can be
very frustrating.  They clog everything.  On top of that, most Polarware
pots don't have threads inside to attach a pickup tube.  I think St. Pats
has one made just for them with a swedgelock fitting inside and a pickup.  I
was pretty upset with my Polarware pots when I first got them because of
this.  I ended up tapping the inside hole to 1/4 NPT and installing an "S"
shaped pickup tube with a Bazooka Screen on the end.  I quit buying pellet
hops and only use whole and plug hops.  The hops settle out around the
screen and filter most of the hot break.  No need to whirlpool. I have not
had any problems sense I started doing this.

That was how I brewed before I built my HERMS.  Now, I moved the Polarware
pot to mash tun duty and use a Sanke keg for the kettle, with the same drain
setup.  Valve, pickup tube and Bazooka screen.  The keg works good because
the keg bottom is concave and the drain pickup tube is right down in the
center and I leave very little wort behind.  My new kettle, still on the
drawing board, is a 15 gallon Volrath Pot.  It has a flat bottom, and I'm
not sure how I'm going to attack that one.  I'm thinking the basic setup
will be the same, but the Bazooka Screen will be up against the wall of the
kettle.  This way, when I'm pumping to the fermenter, I can wedge up the
opposite end a little and get the very last drop, I think.  It will be trial
and error as all new methods are.

I've got lots of pictures if anybody wants to see.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:34:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: extended secondary and bottle conditioning

Greg Brooks <gbrooks at pgharts.org> writes from Pittsburgh, PA:

>After 44 days in secondary will there be enough yeast still
>in suspension for bottle conditioning?  Or, should I add more yeast
>when I bottle?  I only ask because I know this yeast is supposed to
>be very flocculant, unfortunately this is my first time using this
>particular strain.

This shouldn't be a problem unless the secondary has been warm enough 
to harm the yeast, and I doubt that this is the case in Pittsburgh in 
the winter.  Just be sure to slurp up some extra yeast from the 
bottom of the secondary with the racking cane when you are 
transferring to the priming vessel.  Then, since it is very 
flocculant, stir it up a bit when you stir in the sugar solution to 
break up clumps.

I like to bottle very clear beer so there is a minimal layer of yeast 
on the bottom of the bottles.  A layer of paint's thickness is my 
aim.  This gives clear beer in the glass more easily.  We do, after 
all, drink (and eat) with our eyes.  Since your yeast is very 
flocculant, this should work well for you.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:02:38 -0800
From: "Jim Dunlap" <jdpils at attbi.com>
Subject: passivating stainless steel

Greetings Beerlings,

I am looking for some opinions on passivating stainless steel kegs.  I just
cleaned my kegs on 2/20 and planned to brew on 2/25.  I scrubbed the kegs
with a green scotch brite pad anad Barkeep's Friend (oxalic acid based.)
Then did a 110 F 30 minute soak with 1.5 oz PBW per gallon of water and the
same temp water rinse followed by cold water.  John Palmer's online info
says it will take a week or two to passivate in air.  This other site I
found says it is much faster http://www.sepha.com/stainless.htm.

I am wondering if anyone has had negative results brewing so quickly after
such a cleaning.  I usually scrub my kegs with standard dish soap and the
green pad after brewing and have brewed the next day without any noticable
metallic flavors.

Thanks in Advance

Jim Dunlap
Woodinville WA




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:00:51 -0500
From: "Stephen Cavan" <scavan at sprint.ca>
Subject: V-wire spacing

I am looking at placing V-wire in a mash tun, and my memory tells me that I
should look for 3/32" gaps.  Is this correct? Is the spacing critical?

Thanks,
Steve





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:18:11 -0500
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: Re: Mash heating and enzyme denaturing

I agree that enzyme denaturing is a potential problem in some mashing
systems.  I believe that Jeff Renner correctly points out that local wort
overheating could denature the enzymes.  I have my observations and results
that confirm this problem.

I use an electric RIMS.  My heater is controlled with only an on/off switch.
I have noticed a tendency for my brews to be underattenuated for about the
past year or so.  My local homebrew shop switched to a grain mill with a
finer grind at about that time.  I knew that my flow rate through the RIMS
had become more limited with the change in the grind and I needed to be more
careful with the application of heat.  I just didn't know how rapidly the
wort temperature rises when the flow rate is low.

I just modified my system to incorporate a thermometer probe at the heating
chamber outlet.  The observations from that location were alarming.  The wort
temperature could easily exceed 168F without manual toggling of the power
switch.  I can say that I had not been toggling power so actively in the
past.  

My preference for my beers has been slanted to higher body and lower
attenuation, therefore I have routinely used mashing rests in the upper
150's.  My system has a thermometer probe at the wort outlet from my tun.  I
had checked that thermometer for accuracy a couple of years ago and I checked
it again last week.  It reads within a degree of the freezing/boiling temps
when checked, so I'm satisfied with it.  The low attenuation had already
caught my attention.  Low attenuation isn't a great concern to me, but there
was a lack of clarity and "cleanliness" to my beers that needed correction.
To correct the low attenuation, I had been using lower and lower mash
temperature rests.  Unfortunately, the lower temp rests did not improve the
attenuation.  The wort temperature results at the heating chamber outlet now
explain why.  I had been denaturing my enzymes during mashing, ultimately
limiting the conversion.
 
It is now apparent that the wort temperature at the heating chamber outlet
must be more closely monitored and the heat application throttled to match
flow conditions.  The same thing can be said for an under fired mash tun,
monitoring the wort temp under a false bottom and throttling the gas are
probably wise.

Now that my system has adequate temperature monitoring capability, I need to
incorporate an infinite switch into my heating element circuit.  That will
enable me to produce a limited wort temperature at the heater outlet under
all flow conditions. 

That advice to limit temperature rise is probably sage advice, but I think
that incorporating the ability to monitor and control is the ultimate goal.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL 


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:26:12 -0500
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Yeast Taste

Mike:

You asked about yeast taste in your cider. First of all, I am a fan of the 
store-bought apple juice cider process; it's simple and yields a drinkable 
beverage with very little fuss. I also experienced the yeast flavor you 
described, especially when using Cooper's dry ale yeast. I have found other 
yeasts to be less prevalent in flavor, i.e. Danstar's Nottingham (I think) 
and Munton's ale yeast. My advice is to experiment with the different kinds 
of yeast and give the cider some time to condition. After about four weeks, 
the yeast flavor in the Cooper's batch diminished to an acceptable level.

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virginia







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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:51:14 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: various and sunder.

A quick fly by with some commentary of late:


>  It
> wasn't Protestants or Catholics who blew up the WTC, was it?
>

Them pesky muslims. On the other hand, having been through the
"Inquisition", it does sort of give you a balanced view.  Now, I'm not
usually a "squeemish guy", but when that guy in the funny hat pulled my
entrails out with a meat hook and stuck them in front of my face, I'll
tell you right now that it nearly put me off my beer!!

And I don't harbour a grudge against Catholics at all..... 'cept maybe
the one who put the red hot poker up my  (*).


> Dry yeast is a joke.  Let's not start that again.  If you're
> brewing with it, you're the idiot
>
Probably worth mentioning that many VERY LARGE breweries and micros use
dry yeast... and even myself have had many the occasion.  It's been kind
of fun to banter tips on yeast care with those fellows, and see what
lovely things can be produced.  I guess we'll call this "success of the
collective moronics".

George de Piro writes in same:


>  I really don't
> like the way filtration strips body and flavor from beer, so I fine most
> beers with gelatin
>

I can't say if you're winning anything there with gelatin over
filtration. I can say that they both (as well as modern polysyllabics)
strip consumate ammounts of both from the product.  This has never been
a tough one for me to show at blind tastings, including both filtration
and gelatin..

Commercial breweries (with the exception of German micros, where a pile
of yeast and haze seem to be requisite for being considered "the real
thing) do have to deal with clarity.  Homebrewers do not.  They can deal
with flavour instead, and NO clarification method will improve it, and
ALL will be detrimental. Simple as that.

I'd make 2 brazen suggestions here. Anyone doubting the above can quite
simply set up a blind tasting (why not "triangle" it? easier, and you
get "statistics"!) with the "stuff in the buff" versus any method of
clarification.

Remember to serve in opaque containers.  This only turns out one way
when I do it.  Why not engage your local brewclub for the tasting?

For George and other Micro brewers, I'd like to pass on the following. I
was at one brewery where they served a "lager" under one name (they used
filtration), and served one called "Natural Cellar" on another tap, that
had simply bypassed the filtration step (that is... did nothing).

You might try racking off some before you dump the gelatin in.  This not
only adds an extra tap at the pumps (which seems to be a sort of micro
status, an unfortunate trend, methinks, as often many of the styles
served can be way beyond the talents of the brewer, and I personally
don't like to taste through "five" to find the one the brewer knew how
to do), but the public gets a chance to educate their pallate as well.

You're ALWAYS going to have to have star bright beer on tap, but I'll
bet you'll find your regulars drifting to the more full bodied hazier
version.


> It is suggested in a
> lot of brewing resources that you shouldn't raise your mash temp with more
> than about 1 degree Celcius per minute, because otherwise the enzymes may
> denature
>

The technique you describe is I believe called "buttoning" and the
belief that it is necessary is what I believe is called "A Load of
Crap".  As with so many things I lived with that kind of fear for many
years after reading the smae sage advice as thou, until I finally said
"HEY! When you decoct you BOIL a third of the stuff, and sometimes you
can do that 4 times and still make beer!  I think we're talking a fair
ammount of enzyme excess here!

Since then, I first cautiously, and later brazenly wacked on the heat
without stirring and learned the ammount of excess I had to get in the
bottom, that made the whole come right with a quick stir after (ie heat
on 6 minutes, quick stir, lid on. wait)  Know what? Total extract didn't
change a whit.

If you use a recirculating external heat source, you "could" run into
problems, but I'm guessing that even there you'd get by.  If you're
doing the standard "I've got a pot on my stove" brew, I'd file that
under "things that people like to worry about, because thay have to have
something to worry about".

Dr. Pivo




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:06:12 -0500
From: "Bob Hewitt" <rthewitt3 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Whirlpooling and Wort Transfer

Michael Fross asks about transferring wort from his 10-gallon pot into a 
fermenter.

Michael, I have just about the same setup, and I had the same problem until 
I created a manifold based on this:

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20020429190941604


Instead of the riser to the top of the kettle, though, I made a big circle 
that empties directly into the outlet port.

I used 3/8 soft copper tubing, bent into a circle that fits into the 
circumference of the pot.

Next, I put a compression-fit copper T where the two "ends" of the circle 
meet.

Then I cut a small length of 3/8 copper tube and put it into the open "T" 
port, and into the kettle's outlet port.

Next, I drilled 3/32 holes on the BOTTOM of the circular tube, on the 
half-circle AWAY from the port. My reasoning for hole placement is that the 
tube would rise off the bottom as it got closer to the outlet, and I wanted 
to keep the siphon going as long as possible.

Last, I bent the circle so that the part with the holes rests on the bottom, 
and the other half rises up to the outlet port level.

So, I chill with an immersion chiller, give it a good stir, let the motion 
stop, and run out through the valve. I get about 2 quarts of cloudy wort, 
then crystal clear. I stop when it starts to cloud again.


Bob Hewitt
Cincinnati, Ohio





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:08:02 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Fruit Flavorings


My own experience with fruit flavorings has been
very positive.  The best cherry wheat beer I ever
made was with cherry flavoring, and not real fruit.

I've found the flavorings to be easier to use, and
I've found they produce a flavor people like, for
the most part.  But beer judges just don't seem to
like them, as someone else said.

I've sat with judges on fruit beers a couple times,
and comments like "this doesn't taste natural" or
"this tastes like something that was added afterward",
"this is a phony flavor", etc have been pretty common
comments from some judges that I've done fruit beers
with.

 
If you don't plan on entering the beer in a competition,
its no big deal, the extracts are fine.  And all fruit
beers violate the Rheinheitsgebot anyway, so it doesn't
matter whether you use real fruit or fruit flavor
extract from that standpoint.

Other than using the flavorings, I've always read
there are 2 ways to make fruit flavored beers using
real fruit.

The first says to break or cut the fruit open, and
then boil it in the wort for the last few minutes,
or do a long post-boil steep with the fruit after
turning off the heat, much like you would with an
aroma hop addition. I never tried this.  I thought
the primary ferment would scrub away to much of
the fruit flavor.

The second says to add the fruit to the secondary
fermenter.  This idea seemed to make more sense to
me, because it seemed the yeast would have settled
down at that point, and its more like "dry hopping".

I've tried to make fruit beers a couple times using
real fruit and the second method, but never got much
fruit flavor doing that, especially in the one lambic
I attempted.

When I added fruit to the secondary, it seems to me
the yeast went to work on all the sugars from the
fruit, and washed away all the flavor.

I used an ample amount of fruit for the recipe
(Raspberries, for example, 7 lbs in a 5 gallon batch)
and there was initially alot of fruit aroma, etc, but
it seemed to fade and go away after a few days, and
fermentation activity kicked up, too, after adding
the fruit, which is why I say I think the yeast
scrubbed out all the fruit flavor.

Anybody used either of these 2 methods successfully?
Does anybody use or has anybody tried potassium sorbate
or one of the other chemicals winemakers use to prevent
this? Does it seem like a good idea?

Thanks

Bill




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:27:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Stainless Passivation

In HBD #4176, Mike Sharp talks about passivating
stainless steel with hot nitric acid. This seems to be
a non-eco-friendly process (read: not easy for a guy
to get away with in his basement!) I have been doing a
small amount of research in this area myself for
similar reasons. In the on-line literature I have
found so far, citric acid sounds like the way to go.
It is reasonably safe, easy to get rid of (you can
rinse it down the drain), and not to hard to get.
Check out the folowing links for information and a
source of citric acid.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Citric_Acid.htm
http://www.ntscorp.com/scripts/test/test295.html?tstcat=89
http://chemistry.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?
site=http://www.pfonline.com/articles/059905.html

You may have to copy and paste the last address.

Hope this helps.

Chuck Doucette
O'Fallon, IL





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:40:19 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: fruit flavor and lagering two beers

I, too, have some issues with lagers in that people like to drink mine 
and I never have enough supply.  One particularly interesting way I've 
found to get around this is to...er...plan ahead.

I usually let my lagers ferment for two weeks, then transfer to the keg 
whether it's totally fermented out or not.  If it's not totally done, 
it's often a day or two away.  In any event, I brew up another lager on 
the day I plan to rack to the serving keg, and turn the temperature of 
the fridge up to about 55F.  Transfer the first lager and rack the new 
wort on top of the yeast cake.  After 24 hours at 55F, I turn the fridge 
down to 50F (my lager fermentation temp) and hold for three days.  Turn 
down to 45F and hold for three days.  Repeat until the fridge is back to 
your lagering temps.  Raising the temperature helps start a 
pseudo-diacetyl rest and improves the maturation of the first beer.  Of 
course you can still drink it a bit warm.  Then both get cooled back 
down to lagering temps and you have one beer ready to drink while the 
other is lagering.  If you looooooove lagers, you can repeat this many 
times.

Someone else was discussing getting the "fruit" in fruit beers...
A HB friend of mine once suggested priming your keg with a pound of 
frozen-thawed fruit of the flavor that you want.  Put the fruit in a hop 
bag and just serve when the beer is carbonated.  I never tried this but 
he did say it worked.

What I've done lately, with great success, is priming the beer with pure 
fruit juice of the fruit flavor I want in the beer.  It's actually very 
easy to calculate how much juice since the grams of sugar per serving 
are right on the nutritional panel.  I did this same procedure with an 
Apricot ESB, primed with a quart of Looza Apricot Puree (about $3.50). 
 The original beer had no apricots in it, but the final product (after 
the first few pints of Apricot Trub) has a very nice fruit flavor and 
slight aroma.  After 2-3 weeks the flavors melded perfectly.

For example, I just made a cherry witbier with a can of 100% cherry 
puree from Oregon.  Nice beer...mild fruit flavor.  But I did find a 
quart of 100% pure organic black cherry juice at our local Whole Foods 
Market.  There are 132g of sugars in the jar, and I only need about 
110g.  Enough for a glass left over prior to pouring it in the keg.  I 
should have this delicious little number in the keg by next Friday.

Cheers!
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:09:50 -0800
From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu>
Subject: Re: saving yeast from pitchable tubes

Steve Stanley was wanting info from my previous post (HBD #4174) about 
saving yeast from pitchable tubes.  Since other people may be interested in 
this as well, I thought I'd post the two offline responses that I got.  I 
assume they won't mind, but I've deleted their names just in case.
______________________________________________________________________
#1

I have split Wyeast tubes three ways and have split some just two.

They have about 100 ml of solution so I try to estimate 30 ml into a 250 ml 
flask of starter wort on a stir plate. You can see the volume in the tube 
if you hold it up to a light source. Works very well. You just need a extra 
few days to build a starter. Common wisdom says not to step up more than 
10x on each step up. Using this method I can get three 10 gallon batches 
from one tube. I usually brew about 3-4 different styles a year and don't 
pitch on yeast cakes.

It is a great compromise, 1/3 the cost, you can keep a few yeast types on 
hand without the big hassle of yeast ranching. I don't brew in the dead of 
winter so each spring I can start out with a fresh tube and I am good to go 
for 30 gallons which is a lot of one style for me. I let Wyeast do the 
difficult part...

My homebrew shop is not happy about cutting my yeast costs by 1/3 and does 
not carry tubes in the summer because of shipping difficulties or so he says.

My biggest surprise was using my house brown ale yeast 1098 on Skot's B52 
Honey Wheat. Totally different taste out of the same yeast. Great recipe if 
you have not tried it.

Go for it!
____________________________________________________
#2
I haven't tried this with wyeasst, but have done it many times with white 
labs tubes. I get my starter ready, open the tube and dump 1/2 of it out ( 
I mark the tube at the 1/2 point with a sharpie before I open it). Quickly 
replace the lid on the tube and dunk the whole thing in star san. I then 
place the tube in a sanitized pint bottle and put the lid on it. When I use 
the second 1/2, I flame the lip of the tube just to be certain. Never had a 
problem. However, I don't do that anymore, I use Yeast Bank to save yeast. 
Hope this helps.





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:17:14 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Boil Gravity -> Original Gravity

Do any of you fellow brewers keep track of the predictable differences 
between your boil gravity and your final gravity?  I know that it assumes 
a degree of standardization of practice, ie boil time being mostly the 
same, etc......

I have found that over the last 40 all-grain batches (since last March) I 
have averaged 8 points in gain , ie from the boil to the original 
gravity...so, for ex, a boil gravity of 1.050 should (for me) result in 
1.058 final gravity...if I use mostly the same procedures...

So my question is: does this match or come close to what others have 
noticed?


 ..Darrell





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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:37:23 -0500
From: MJHarper at adelphia.net
Subject: Old grains and Guinness bottles?


Hey folks,

After a long absence I'm gearing up to start brewing again.
I've got several kinds of grain still in sealed bags, in
Tupperware, that has been stored in a cool dark cabinet in
the basement for a few years now.  No issues of mold, or
dampness or air infiltration of any sort.  I checked out one
container today, and it seems as fresh as it was when I got it.

Question is, under these conditions how long does UNcrushed
grain stay viable?

Try it and see what happens?

Forget it, don't waste my effort and just toss it?

Why even consider it?   Because it seems a waste to just
pitch it, and it includes some nice Special B, Vienna Pale,
etc.  Not just run of the mill grains.


Next question:

A friend and I were downing a couple of Guinness the other day and the
question was posed "hey Matt, could you bottle a stout in these bottles and
get the benefits of the widget?"  My response was "I dunno.... Maybe."
First I'd be concerned about sanitizing the things, then I wonder, would it
work?  Anybody tried it?

Thanks much!

 -Matthew



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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:06:11 -0500
From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI <McNallyGA at Npt.NUWC.Navy.Mil>
Subject: 2003 South Shore Brewoff - competition announcement


  The South Shore Brew Club is pleased to announce our 8th annual
South Shore Brewoff.

  The competition will be held on Saturday, April 19th, 2003 at the
Rock Bottom Brewery in Braintree, MA.  Entry deadline is Saturday,
April 5th, 2003.

  We have registered with the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP)
and will be accepting entries in all 26 BJCP categories (including
mead and cider).

  Competition entry packages containing entry forms, bottle labels,
judge/steward registration form, and other related information will
be available soon from our club website:

http://members.aol.com/brewclub/

  If you have any questions contact Geoffrey McNally, the competition
organizer, at mcnallyga at npt.nuwc.navy.mil or 401-624-3953.


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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:53:28 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Re.Aroma Hopping

I was suspicious of this added bitterness that George DePiro suggests is
added by last addition hops while sitting in the kettle waiting to flow thru
the C.F. chiller. I have been getting some overly bitter beers and was
thinking this might be a contributing factor, but all the literature says
otherwise.Since using the CF chiller I have been adding my aroma addition,
letting them steep, then starting the flow thru the chiller. So my steeping
time  is doubled and I still am not getting the desired aroma. I am confused
about the $3.50 hop back though. If I stuff the hop filled sack into the hot
wort and start the flow the hops are still in contact with the hot wort for
a significant length of time as it takes about 20 minutes to run the wort
thru the chiller. What about rinsing the hops with the cold wort as it exits
the chiller . Is this not sanitary. Also isthe pole you use to stuff the
hops into the hot wort pressure treated or not?
Pat




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:26:28 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Re.Energy Sources

Hope I am not too far behind,on this one but I can never keep up on my
reading. Dion responded to Rick about using household LP gas for his brewery
and got me more confused. I put together my brewery [over 4 years now and
still not done] in my new house excited about the prospect of using the
propane that Iwould pipe thru the house for cooking and drying clothes
anyway. I talked to my LP supplier and he told me that the gas they supplied
to the house was of low pressure about 9lbsand would not work with a King
Kooker type unit gecause they were designed for a much highr incoming
pressure. So I bought a burner from BB&MB  that was designed for this
application, it works ok but is not nearly as efficient as my other types
that work off a 20 lb LP tank. Much soot production not as hot. If anyone
were to use this unit I would suggest hard piping the burner with 1/2" pipe.
The burner has a 1/2" orifice coming in, but the regulator that comes with
it only has a 3/8" orifice coming out. I did end up trying my Camp Chef
burnr on the household propane but it did not work well at all.
Pat




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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:49:57 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Stability test

Tried the stability test Steve A. and Dean F. spoke of. Put wort sample in
small jelly jar about  .5" of air space. Opened 72 hours later smelled and
looked fine. Opened 12 hours after that smelled looked and tasted fine. Did
I conduct this test correctly?
Have been not able to achieve a good cold break,with the nice large clumps
forming immediately after cooling, amongst other problems, so I set out to
try and conduct a very regimented mash schedule, and boiling, cooling,
trying to follow all the rules, brew day to clean up my act. StepMashed,
[had been doing single temp infusuion to sparge out at 170] recirculated
perfectly clear wort to boiler , full blown rolling boil with the lid off,
threw in 1.5 t. just purchased Irish Moss ran thru C.F. chiller 60F. into
fermenter. Perfect immediate cold break. What did I do right? Does Irish
moss go bad? I had even done an all extract batch a few months ago to try to
isolate what some of my problems were and still did not achieve a good cold
break. Is it OK to leave wort sit overnight to rack off cold break material
then pitch yeast. I thought I saw that Steve A. had said he did this?
Patrick




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