---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Bitter Peter ("Strom C. Thacker")
  Re: Dry Hopping Lagers (MOREY Dan)
  Re: 2-Liter Soda Bottles and Pressure Limits (Jay Pfaffman)
  RE: Bitter Peter ("Limosani, Peter")
  Is Dry Ice Filthy? ("FLJohnson at portbridge.com")
  MCAB Qualifiers? (Nathan Kanous)
  Food barley (bruce)
  pids again. (aa8jzdial)
  New Product Announcement ("Jack Schmidling")
  Steeping Munich malt (John Palmer)
  dry beer ("greg man")
  Batch Sparging (Michael Fross)
  Burton, Carbonate and DGB ("Ray Daniels")
  Hops and Head ("Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D")
  Caps for Carboys ("Dennis Collins")
  re: PBW=Oxyclean? And more.. ("Jason Henning")
  Growing Malting Barley (Richard Foote)
  Atlanta Homebrew Competition ("Jon Rising")
  What does CAP stand for? (Jeff Renner)
  Re-Using Percarbonate Products ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re: Steeping Munich Malt? (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  PBW & Oxyclean (Mark Kempisty)
  PBW<>OxyClean ("Eric R. Theiner")
  HB Shops around Pittsburgh ("Marcie Greer")
  Re: Dry Beer (Jeff Renner)
  1st All Grain Batch Procedure (Michael Fross)
  PBW (Rod Tussing)
  historic books republished (Jeff Renner)
  out of style ("Dave Burley")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* The HBD Logo Store is now open!
* http://www.cafeshops.com/hbdstore
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:49:18 -0800
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>
Subject: Bitter Peter

Peter asks about his increased bitterness and notes two new 
techniques: the use of a yeast starter, and oxygenation.  Peter, how 
did your FGs end up?  Were they lower than previous efforts?  It may 
be that you are getting much better attenuation from the starter and 
oxygen.  Thus, there may be less residual sweetness to balance the 
hop bitterness, making the bitterness stand out more.

If that's the case, just cut back a bit on your bittering hops and 
you should get better balance.

Strom
Palo Alto, CA

<snip>

I started using two new techniques about the time the bitterness started.

One, I started making 2 liter yeast starters with stirring aeration using
the technique I found on the PrimeTab Web site. It appears to make a lot of
slurry and fermentations really get going!
http://www.primetab.com/yeaststarter.html

Two, I bought a regulator and stone and started oxygenating the cooled wort
before pitching yeast. I use a $10 oxygen tank from the local hardware
store. I bought the gear from an on-line brew shop and follow the
directions.
I boil the stone to sanitize.

<snip>


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:30:31 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping Lagers

Russ Kruska asked about dry hopping Pilsners.  When I first read David
Miller's book Continental Pilsners, I was surprised to find the recipes were
dry hopped.  I have only tried it once, and did not care for the results.
With any beer, the first thing is to understand your intentions or
expectations for the brew.  There is certainly nothing wrong with dry
hopping lager if you want to have a strong hop aroma and flavor.  However,
such lagers are less likely to do well in competitions.  If you want to brew
to style, avoid dry hopping your lager.  If you are searching for a hybrid
between some lager and an English or American ale, then dry hopping may very
well be appropriate.

In my opinion, brewing to style help us focus on the attributes of the
finished product.  With the attributes in mind, we tailor the recipe and
procedure to achieve the desired results.  By doing this we learn our unique
brewing systems, about recipe formulation, and attributes we like.  Using
this knowledge we have a better chance in brewing what we want whether it is
to style or purely experimental.

Cheers,

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:13:00 -0800
From: Jay Pfaffman <pfaffman at relaxpc.com>
Subject: Re: 2-Liter Soda Bottles and Pressure Limits

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:03:43 -0500, rhostler at pcconnection.com said:

[wants to use 2-liter PET bottles for cider]

> I have a few questions before I make my first attempt:
> 1. Will I run into bursting problems using these bottles?

Probably not.

> 2. What is the maximum pressure these bottles can handle? I read several
> articles that explained how to make rockets with soda bottles. They
> recommended keeping the pressure below 90psi.

That's good advice, but you don't want to carbonate your cider that
much anyway.  I regularly pump PET bottles to 60-70PSI when
force-carbonating a sample (or half a beer that somehow didn't get
finished). 

> 3. What is the average maximum pressure that glass beer bottles can handle?

Hmm.  Don't know that, but I suspect it's less than 90PSI.

My concern with the PET bottles for long-term storage is oxygen
getting through the PET and into your cider.

- -- 
Jay Pfaffman                           pfaffman at relaxpc.com
+1-415-821-7507 (H)                    +1-415-812-5047 (M)



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:46:31 -0500
From: "Limosani, Peter" <Peter.Limosani at FMR.COM>
Subject: RE: Bitter Peter

To my bitterness query, Strom replied:

<snip>
Peter asks about his increased bitterness and notes two new 
techniques: the use of a yeast starter, and oxygenation.  Peter, how 
did your FGs end up?  Were they lower than previous efforts?  It may 
be that you are getting much better attenuation from the starter and 
oxygen.  Thus, there may be less residual sweetness to balance the 
hop bitterness, making the bitterness stand out more.
<snip>

I have also received many off-list replies with suggestions. 
First, let me thank you all for your responses! I apologize in advance 
for a long post--I'm responding below to 6 or 7 inquiries.

Strom,
Both The Beer Man & Dan G. had a similar thought to yours.
Actually, to put a spin on the problem, I've been getting rather high
final gravities with the beers in question. I'm at work, so don't have
my notes handy, but these beers used WY 2278, WY 1098 & WY 1056.
The attenuation figures from Wyeast's Web site are respectively: 
70-74%, 73-75% & 73-77%. My results were typically 60-65% with final
gravities in the high teens. This has been a paradox to me--
big starter + higher oxygenation = lower attenuation. I've exchanged 
e-mails with the folks at Wyeast and they couldn't seem to find 
anything wrong.

Another responder pondered about my water. I've been brewing in this
house for 4 years now (public water) and haven't had an issue. We have
a two stage filter under the counter and I tend to use the filtered
water when I do partial boils and for pilsners and the tap water when
I mash and do full wort boils. I check my pH when I mash and rarely
have to adjust for it.

Another responder wondered if it was possible to over oxygenate wort.
I've heard of this, but I've also heard that at homebrew levels, a high
oxygen saturation will dissipate quickly. I wait 'til any foam dies down
before pitching. Anyone have a solid answer for this?

Answers to a few other questions: I ferment in 6G glass carboys. I've
replaced my siphoning hoses twice during the last few batches.

The beers:
Pilsner - full mash - full wort boil - whole hops - WY 2278
Vienna - partial mash/extract - partial boil - whole hops - WL 838
Brown Ale - partial mash/extract - partial boil - pellet hops - WY 1098
Amber Ale - full mash - full wort boil - pellet hops - WY 1056

Each recipe had different ingredients purchased at different times
and, actually, from three different shops. 

I aimed for a BU:GU ratio of 40% on the Amber to see if my 'house' hop 
utilization was high. The Amber is still very bitter. With time, 
the bitterness does not seems to get better. 

Joe Screnock was wondering how to increase the bitterness in one of
his beers. Joe, I'll send you a few bottles of mine for blending!!


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:40:46 -0500
From: "FLJohnson at portbridge.com" <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Is Dry Ice Filthy?

I would like to minimze oxygen uptake in my beer at bottling time and
I'm considering the following craziness. I would put a small chunk of
dry ice in the empty, sanitized bottling bucket and allow the dry ice
to sublimate, filling the bucket with CO2. I would also rack the
finished beer into the bucket, still containing some dry ice, and
continue to add dry ice as necessary to maintain the bucket full of
CO2. Prime and bottle as ususal. How likely is this dry ice to
contaminate my beer with something(a)that is toxic, (b)that will
spoil the flavor directly, or (c) that will introduce undesirable
yeast or bacteria to spoil the beer. 
- --
Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:10:22 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: MCAB Qualifiers?

Hi,
Any chance that the MCAB Steering Committee could post qualifying comps for 
this year?  Everything on the hbd website is still from last year's 
MCAB.  I know some of us have already missed some QE's this year.  Thanks.
nathan in madison, wi



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:50:39 -0800
From: bruce <bruce.m.bush at verizon.net>
Subject: Food barley

Hi, I have been making beer from the barley that I buy at our local food coop.
It is already hulled, but most of it still sprouts pretty well.  Does anyone
know if it is two-row or six-row?  Since it is food barley, I expect it is
six-row or some other variety.  It makes good beer, alone or with food coop
wheat.  If anyone is interested, I can send on my recipe.  Bruce



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:51:26 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at attbi.com
Subject: pids again. 

A couple of days ago Steve posted a general question or two regarding temp 
controllers. You can get too involved in this easily. Beware.

I work in an instrumentation lab. We work with controllers daily to the point 
of nausea.

 Pid is a type of controller and also a group of mathematical algorithms
(formulas). It has nothing to do with the output signal from the controller.
Controllers have basically 3 output types. 

#1 on/off    where the output is either... on or off. totally determined by 
what you want in temp and where you are. ask for 170 and be at 169 it is on and 
when at 170 output is off. like a switch. period

#2 on/off with pid.
when you are below setpoint (below where you want to be) the output is on for a 
percent of time based on how far from sp you are and how fast it is coming up.
If you are below sp but coming on real fast the d part of the pid will try to 
back off the percent output. P and I are big players also with p being the 
primary element but man we haven't the room on the net to go into all this.
But the output is still on or off like a switch. Heres the clinker. 50 % output 
means you are on half the time and off the other half. Duty cycle, cycle time 
or whatever determines if it is on 1 hour and off one hour or on .5 secs and 
off .5 seconds. If you are banging relays .5 on and .5 off will wear them out.
With solid state switches it is not an issue.

#3 Pid with linear output or other darned verbage means you have an output 
resembling a light dimmer switch but with no hair behind it. The controller can 
be purchased or configured (depending on what kind you have) for an output of 0-
5 volts, 4-20 milli amps or 0-20 ma or 1 to 17 furlongs per fortnight. That is 
not going to do you much good unless you have a power amplifier that will use 
this small signal to control your big load such as the 4.5 kw hlt heating 
element. These amps are called scr controllers typically and can be expensive 
new and more complicated then you may want.

das it pretty much. Except for the issue of tuning. The tuning in the second 2 
case (there is no tuning with straight on/off and also not always proper 
control although freql'y more then adequate) can be a trick. Frog around with 
the p parameter mostly. This is the strongest player. Then I. Lastly mess with 
D if you want. Many control schemes do not require any D.

My hlt with 4.5 kw is on/off. no pid. works great. my herms is pid to keep the 
huge energy dumps from occuring so my wort won't smoke.

simple eh??

rick


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:56:17 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: New Product Announcement

After ten years of saying no, we have decided to unblundle the Maltmill into
building blocks to satisfy the wishes of OEM's and dedicated
do-it-yourselfers.

Details on BAREBONES   at http://schmidling.netfirms.com/barebone.htm

Thanks,

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
HOME: Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos
http://schmidling.netfirms.com





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:32:09 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Steeping Munich malt

Marcie asks which is correct: steeping or mashing Munich malt.
To be precise, Munich (which has enough enzyme potential (usually) to 
convert itself) should be mashed. Now, there are those that would say 
that in general, if you steep a malt with enzyme potential, you are 
mashing. Which is true in general: it's like saying that in general if 
you are moving with the flow of gravity down a snowy slope with long 
pieces of wood strapped to your feet, you are skiing. But it doesn't 
speak to the degree of success that you are having doing it.
To mash, you need to steep at a recommended temperature (145-158F, 
depending), and you should steep at a recommended concentration of 1-2 
quarts of water per lb. of malt. And you should do it for a recommended 
time. I would recommend at least a half hour at 150-155F. The procedure 
in BYO (Mar/Apr 03) for Princess Theresa Oktoberfestbier for steeping 
the crystal and Munich malt is pretty crude and will not be very 
efficient at extracting the grain's potential.
What I would recommend instead is to mash the two crushed grains in 1 
gallon of water at 150-155F (in the bag is fine) for half an hour. 
Raise the bag and let it drain. Pour that wort into your boiling pot. 
Now dunk the bag into another gallon of 150-155F water. Dunk and swirl 
a few times, probably 5 minutes worth, raise it to drain, and add that 
gallon of wort to the brewing pot. Discard the bag. This amounts to 
mashing and batch sparging of that 3 lbs of grain and you should get a 
fairly decent extract from it, say 70%.
Good Brewing,
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:40:46 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: dry beer 


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 05:59:35 -0900
From: kerry and dell drake <drakes at gci.net>
Subject: Dry Beer

  What you have sounds like a problem with astringency. I used to have this 
problem and there are a few things you can check to avoid it in the next 
batch.

#1 a good crush for your grains

#2 Temp of your sparage should not go over like 168F
(everyone has a magic number for this one an there all different)

#3 PH of both sparage water and the mash during sparage. You want to be 
careful the ph of the mash doesn't rise over 6 And that goes pretty much the 
same for the sparage water although this is debatable.

#4 the total % of water sparaged. Some say just lauter until you hit your 
boil volume, but really your run off should be your guide. Stop the sparage 
after your run off reaches 1.012 or there a bouts. As a rule of thumb 
sparage with 25-30% more water than you used to mash with. Add water to the 
kettle if necessary.

All of these suggestions will help you to combat leaching tannins into your 
beer which I think is the dry puckering sensation you described.

After I lowered the sparage water ph to 6 an sparaged with no more than 
25-30% of my mash water, I no longer tasted the astringency that I had 
detected in my first few beers.
Brew on .......................gregman






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:52:59 -0600
From: Michael Fross <michael at fross.org>
Subject: Batch Sparging

Hello Denny,

I'm getting ready to do my first AG batch and have been hearing about
batch sparging.  I must admit to never hearing about it before John
Palmers post.

Could you give the basic rundown on how you do this? What is it? How
does it work, etc? Anything that can reduce the amount of time in my
garage will keep my wife happy (and a happy wife = a happy brewer) :)

Thanks,

Michael



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:25:00 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Burton, Carbonate and DGB

Hello all, 

Due to a recent crush of work, I have been unable to read HBD for the
past few weeks. Peter Novata forwarded me the recent post by David Humes
regarding Burton water analysis and Designing Great Beers and I have
taken a few minutes to examine the issue.

The short answer is that there certainly IS bicarbonate content in
Burton waters and Designing Great Beers is in error on this point.
Please forgive me for the error. 

The references I have been able to access this morning generally point
back to H. Lloyd Hind's "Brewing Science and Practice" (Vol. 1) as the
seminal source of information on this issue.  (Palmer points to The
Practical Brewer which points to Hind. Foster clearly includes data from
Hind as well.) In any case, Hind makes some interesting points about
water chemistry in general and Burton water specifically. 

For starters: "It is generally conceded that a moderate excess of the
ions derived from gypsum or calcium sulphate is desirable for pale ales
and that chalk or calcium carbonate is harmful . . ."  (P 413).

More importantly, however he notes the wide variation found in Burton
waters: "The analysis [shows] markedly different composition obtained
from wells of different depths at Burton-on-Trent.  The variations in
mineral constitution are greater than is usual in an equally restricted
area but it must be noted that differences of similar nature occur
elsewhere and that the analyses given in the following pages as
representing waters of well-known brewing centers should be taken only
as types, FROM WHICH CONSIDERABLE VARIATIONS MAY OCCUR."  (My emphasis.)

In DGB, I express a clear preference for excluding all but the lowest
levels of carbonate from waters used in making bitter and pale ales.
Adding carbonate just means that you have to add more calcium sulfate to
counteract it. Indeed, when I make such beers, I try to knock down the
natural carbonate content of Chicago water (about 100 ppm out of the
tap) and then build up the sulfate content with gypsum.  It appears that
Terry Foster agrees with the "no carbonate" approach in both versions of
"Pale Ale."  

So, as with many things related to brewing, some judgement is required.
Achieving the desired balance of minerals as Hind indicated more than 50
years ago may be more important than trying to hit a specific list of
values. Of course, a proper homebrewer would try both ways enough times
to form an opinion about what she or he prefers. <smile>

Thanks for the bandwidth.

Ray

Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
Association of Brewers

[197.8, 264.2] Apparent Rennerian




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:52:50 -0500
From: "Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu>
Subject: Hops and Head


Is there any way to obtain the nice foamy head character of hops without
overwhelming bitterness or aroma?  My PA's have a thick head that lasts
the whole beer, but my koelsch and stouts have millimeter heads that
last a few seconds (no matter how big the beer).  I'm guessing this
difference is due to the big hop additions.  Any comments?

Thanks in advance,

Shawn



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:05:28 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Caps for Carboys

When I first got into brewing (1991 or so), I ordered an equipment kit that
contained a 6.8 gallon carboy.  The carboy was shipped with a hard plastic
screw cap which has come in very handy over the years.  As my brewery has
grown, and I've added more carboys, I've noticed that the new carboys are
identical to my 12 year old carboy, they even have the threads on the neck,
but they don't come with the screw caps anymore.  Does anyone know where I
can get some of these caps?  They are very handy for long term storage (hey
Charley, they would have kept the black widows out if you had them), and
other uses as well.  I'd appreciate any info on or off line.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:17:32 -0500
From: "Jason Henning" <homebrew1 at thehennings.com>
Subject: re: PBW=Oxyclean? And more..

Hello-

In HBD 4194, Jim asks about PBW:

> Does anybody know where to find PBW in bulk?

Grape and Granary has 8 pounds in a gallon jug for about $45.

> Also, can PBW or oxyclean be kept and reused? If so, for how long, and how
> would you know that it is still effective? Slimey feel?

The slimy feeling is the alkalines in the PBW reacting with the oils in your
skin to make soap.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Dead Lake MI




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:22:35 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Growing Malting Barley

Hi Brewerz,

My brother has asked me about growing barley.  I guess he wants to try his
hand at it, since he has some land on which to do it.  I'm looking for any
recommendations on what varieties to plant (Georgia) and where to buy the
planting barley.  Also, any information on the planting (sowing), care and
malting would be appreciated.

TIA,

Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:30:38 -0500
From: "Jon Rising" <jr4 at mindspring.com>
Subject: Atlanta Homebrew Competition

Dear Fellow Homebrewer,

The BrewMasters of Alpharetta are pleased to announce The BrewMaster's Open,
an AHA Sanctioned Homebrew Competition, to be held May 17th at the
Alpharetta Buckhead Brewery. Entries will be accepted from May 1st to May
10th. We will be judging all BJCP categories including Ciders and Meads. You
can find all the details including entry forms, drop-off locations, prizes,
etc., at our website at  www.georgiabrewer.com/brewmastersopen

We will need Judges and Stewards. If you are available to judge, please fill
out the judge's registration form on our website and email it to Ken
Rybnikar: kjryb at netscape.net. Stewards, please email Russ Wilkins:
rwwilki at bellsouth.net.

We are looking forward to a good competition - we are expecting from 175 to
200 entries.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:26:06 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: What does CAP stand for?

Brewers

In a private email, I was asked:

>What style does CAP stand for?

It's not really fair to use acronyms without defining them regularly.  Sorry.

It's Classic American Pilsner, the dominant pre-prohibition American 
beer and the ancestor of all mainstream American beers of today.  It 
is a what European trained immigrant brewers made when they came to 
America and were faced with different ingredients requiring different 
recipes and brewing procedures.

While there were many European-style lagers brewed in American 100 
years ago, the most popular was in the Bohemian, or Pilsner, style. 
It was a pale, often quite crisp, fairly bitter beer made with cereal 
adjunct, most often corn but sometimes rice or a combination, 
typically 20-30%, and 6-row barley malt.

This style had disappeared as mainstream American beers became 
lighter and lighter in flavor, body and character.  It was largely 
forgotten until the late George Fix wrote an article in Zymurgy in 
the 1980's.  He wrote another in the mid 1990s in Brewing Techniques 
and Ben Jankowski wrote one (also in BT) on the pilsners of Bushwick 
in Brooklyn, NY, of the 1950s, which were still rather dry and bitter 
compared to the rest of the country.  These got me interested, so in 
1995 I brewed one, was overwhelmed, and wrote a note for HBD singing 
its praises.  George encouraged me to develop this into an article 
for Brewing Techniques, which I did.

This set off a growing swell of enthusiasm for the style and Pete 
Garafalo and Del Lansing, along with encouragement from George Fix 
and maybe some others, got it recognized as a style for BJCP and then 
AHA.  It has since become very popular with homebrewers and has done 
very well in competitions.

I wrote another article in Zymurgy two years ago which reflected my 
updated thoughts on this great style.  I have changed only one thing 
in my brewing since that article - I no longer mash-in at 104F/40C, 
but rather go straight to 145-146F.  A bit more than a year ago I 
posted my up-to-date thoughts.  This can be read at 
http://hubris.umich.jstor.org:80/Beer/Threads/Threads/thread.1047563810.html#22
http://hubris.umich.jstor.org:80/Beer/Threads/Threads/thread.1047563810.html#23

I think there may be some minor revisions to that but that's pretty much it.

Earlier BT articles can be read at:

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.3/fix.html
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

Zymurgy articles are are not available on-line.

As Pete Garafalo pointed out the other day, just because I'm the most 
vigorous flogger of this style doesn't mean that my word is gospel!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:48:13 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re-Using Percarbonate Products

I missed this part of the question before--

Alkaline percarbonate compounds will start losing effectiveness once 
they're dissolved in water.  If you keep them in a cool, dark place in a 
sealed container, you can probably count on them continuing to work for you 
for a week or so, with a gradual loss of effectiveness over that 
time.  PBW, Straight-A, B-Brite, and other products count on a number of 
other things for their cleaning ability, so you will always have that to 
count on as well, but in the case of OxyClean, the percarbonate is all that 
is there.  It will not work so well after just a few days.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
www.ecologiccleansers.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:52:00 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Steeping Munich Malt?

"Marcie Greer" <tea.dye at verizon.net> writes:

>  In my internet travels I have read the following statement on the BYO
>web site:
>"Special malts such as Munich malts, ... are not well-suited for
>steeping because these ingredients all contain a lot of starch."

This is not true for Munich malt.  I don't know what other "special 
malts" they were grouping it with.  Yes, it contains a lot of starch, 
but it has enough enzymes to break the starch down into fermentable 
sugar if your steeping is done at a proper temperature for this to 
occur (about 153F +/- 5F).  This steeping is called a mini-mash.

>and yet the partial mash Oktoberfest recipe in BYO this month calls for
>1 lb. dark Munich malt (20deg L) to be steeped thusly:
>"Coarsely mill the two specialty malts and pour them into a muslin bag.
>Place the bag in at least two gallons of cold water and raise the
>temperature slowly, for at least half an hour, until it reaches
>170-190F"

Wrong temperature.  The enzymes would be cooked.  I don't know what 
the other specialty malt the recipe calls for.  If it has enzymes, 
you'd do OK with this if you steeped them at 153F.  An hour might be 
better.  And don't start with so much water or cold water.  I'd 
suggest about three quarts at 165F or so.  Then put them in a 
preheated 150F oven and read a book while they steep, maybe John 
Palmer's "How To Brew", which covers this.  It's online, too, at 
http://www.howtobrew.com.  Then rinse (sparge) the grains with more 
water at 170F.  Check John's web-book (or buy the 2nd edition real 
thing - it's easier to read) for technique.

>Now the correct use of Munich malt eludes me! I also had little success
>finding 20deg L Munich malt. Everything I could find is 10deg L (my HB
>shop guy told me to just use 2 lbs.).

Using twice as much of half as dark isn't really equivalent, but 
mini-mashing more grain is good if your equipment will handle it.

>I'm mailordering some yeast slants for upcoming brews
>but that place doesn't have the elusive dark Munich either. Would
>someone please help me out here?

There are several producers of this dark Munich malt.  Durst is what 
I use, imported by GW Kent.  See their malt analysis at 
http://www.gwkent.com/durstmalt.html.  Note that EBC color ratings 
are about double Lovibond, so what you want is the 40EBC.  GW Kent is 
available to retailers, so check with others.

Again, if you had told us where you are, we might have been able to 
point you to a nearby supplier.

>I am just returning to homebrewing after a
>20-year hiatus and things are quite different!

Welcome back.  You are right - things are much different - all of it better.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:13:47 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re:  PBW & Oxyclean

I use Oxyclean on my Tap-a-Draft.  Fill the bottle with hot water from
the sink tap, quickly add a scoop of Oxyclean and put the dispenser on.
Shake to get the crystals to dissolve, "dispense" a little to fill the
dip tube and let it sit.  Pressure builds and later I "dispense" more to
flush the dip tube and spout.  Rinse everything with hot water and I'm
good to go the next time.

- --
Take care,
Mark
Richboro, PA




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:39:02 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: PBW<>OxyClean

(For those not familiar with the lower level programming languages, <> 
means "not equal to")

OxyClean is 60% sodium percarbonate, 40% soda ash (washing soda).  It's a 
fine bleaching agent and an acceptable hard surface cleanser.  I know PBW 
inside and out because of the time I was considering taking Five Star to 
court (Why?  Historical note is below), and can tell you that it also 
contains alkaline silicates and some other items which make it much better 
suited to brewing applications.  It is certainly not the same thing, and I 
think you'll prefer the results with PBW or my product, Straight-A.

Historical Note:  Straight-A was developed about 10 years ago because I was 
not happy with B-Brite.  Since I specialized in hard surface cleaning 
compounds at the time, I made my own product and, at the urging of a few 
people, started selling it.  PBW came onto the scene about 5-6 years later 
(as far as homebrewers were concerned, that is).  They had been selling the 
same product to large users prior to marketing it to homebrewers.  It was 
nearly identical to Straight-A, which was why I was thinking about suing 
them for knocking off my product.  That was really unrealistic, I realized 
as I cooled down, because the chemistry behind the products is certainly 
nothing earth shattering, and it is most likely that Charlie Talley (their 
chemist) and I simply were thinking along the same lines to solve a given 
problem.

Incidentally, Straight-A is now upgraded (as compared to the samples of PBW 
that I have), and it's about half the price (I don't have to support 
expensive packaging, the overhead that they have, or the remains of a 
monstrous ad campaign).  You might want to try it out if you're looking to 
save some money.

Oh, and another note-- for those looking to save money on OxyClean by 
buying off-brands-- watch out!  I've been looking into getting into this 
market as well and have found that many of these OxyClean look-alikes can 
be more than 50% lower in activity.  In other words, OxyClean provides 60% 
percarbonate, but the Dollar Store version provides only 25%.  Until you 
can buy my version <G>, I'd stick with the reputable brands.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
www.ecologiccleansers.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:55:53 -0500
From: "Marcie Greer" <tea.dye at verizon.net>
Subject: HB Shops around Pittsburgh

Thanks for the great response to my question on the correct use of
Munich malt! One question that was asked me off-line was where I live so
that the list could recommend a nearby source for the 20L dark Munich
malt. Apparently the plain text editor doesn't like my sig and it didn't
show up. Sorry about that! I am in Latrobe, PA (about 40 minutes east of
Pittsburgh). To date I have only been to Duncan's Brew Shop in Jeanette
and South Hills Brewing Supply in Pittsburgh so if anyone knows of
another area shop that would have this malt I'll nip by this weekend and
pick some up. Note: Please don't recommend mail-order shops because the
$1.30 bag of malt costs $5 - $6 to be shipped and I don't have a
pressing need for anything else right now (and my husband is beginning
to complain about the bills I am running up on brewing stuff).

Marcie, Latrobe, PA
 -Homebrewin' a Block from the Rolling Rock-




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:06:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Dry Beer

kerry drake <drakes at gci.net> writes from Eagle River, Alaska, writes 
that after a 5 year hiatus, he recently returned to brewing, but his 
beers

>have a "dry" taste/feel leaves ones mouth a
>little dried out feeling, especially after a few glasses.  It's not nearly
>as intense as a dry wine, but is similar.

This sounds like astringency.  I can think of three possible causes 
of the top of my hear.

First, water chemistry and mash pH (the two are related).  Have you 
checked the pH of your mashes?  If you have high alkalinity and not 
much dark malt (which is acid), the mash pH can be too high, which 
can lead to this kind astringency.

Second, over sparging, which is especially a potential problem if you 
have high alkalinity water.  Make sure to stop at 1.010 and pH 6.0. 
It probably wouldn't hurt to be conservative and stop a little 
earlier - 1.012 or 14 and 5.8.

Third, oxidation can cause harsh flavors.  Avoid splashing and other 
introduction of air/oxygen except to cool wort.  Polyclar might help 
reduce this, but prevention is better.

>Oh yeah, I've used WhileLabs Amer. Ale and Calif Ale and
>WYeast Amer Ale and NW Ale yeasts all with this same dry feel/taste.

Yeasts that finish dry like W1056 and WLP001 might let this problem 
show through more than a richer finishing one, but it shouldn't be 
the cause.

Hope this gives you something to work on.  Don't get discouraged.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:46:15 -0600
From: Michael Fross <michael at fross.org>
Subject: 1st All Grain Batch Procedure

Hello everyone.

I would like to thank everyone who took the time to respond to my long
post.  Everyone's comments were extremely helpful as I attempt to do
my first batch.

The HBD community is wonderful and I'm proud to be a part of it.

Kind regards,

Michael



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:14:46 -0800
From: Rod Tussing <RodT at pplant.UCDavis.edu>
Subject: PBW

Jim Williams asks about PBW in Digest #4194:
" PBW=Oxyclean?"

I've used PBW for over 2 years and it works very well IMHO.  I have no
experience with Oxyclean but I'm sure that it is not the same product as
PBW.  Oxyclean has seen positive posts on the digest in the past and no
negative comments IIRC.  

"$10.00/# PBW from lhbs....Does anybody know where to find PBW in bulk?"

Yes, Here's 2 sources(NAJSCYY)
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com
$45.60 / case 16 lb Pail = $2.85 per pound - plus shipping from Colorado

http://morebeer.com
$19.95 / 4 lb jar = $4.99 per pound - plus shipping from California (order
some more stuff to make a $49.00 order and they'll ship for free)

"...can PBW or oxyclean be kept and reused? If so, for how long, and how
would you know that it is still effective? Slimey feel?"

I suppose, but do you save and re-use your dirty dishwater from the kitchen
too?  
I wash the mash tun with PBW after each brew session and pump the used PBW
solution to the boil kettle - that is the extent of my efforts to conserve
and recycle PBW. 

Rod Tussing
Sacramento, CA

[1975.1, 275.1] Miles Apparent Rennerian


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:37:48 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: historic books republished

Brewers

This is late but still timely.  Homebrewer Glenn Raudins has 
republished several historic books in beautiful editions with acid 
free paper and bonded leather covers, entirely reset type, and 
generally very nice.

http://raudins.com/BrewBooks/default.htm

His third book, Town and Country Brewery Book (1830) (details below) 
is about to be published, and the pre-order deadline is March 15. 
After that, the price goes up, and he will also have a general price 
increase at that date.

His web site is set up for secure online ordering and PayPal payment, 
and he is set up for international shipping.

I have no affiliation with Glenn other than wanting to see him 
succeed so he will publish more - and, he provided me with a review 
copy of his second book.  I wrote an unsolicited review for HomeBrew 
Digest which he has on his web page.  I haven't written one for the 
second one from sheer procrastination.

As I wrote in my review of the first book:

>I wholeheartedly recommend this book.  If you are interested in how
>beer was brewed in the mid 19th century, you will want this book.  If
>you are interested in the history of applied technology, you will
>want this book.  If you like nice books, you will want it.

The second one is as good and I am sure the new one will not disappoint.


Here is a full description of the about to be published book, 
followed byu briefer ones of the first two.

	1830 - Town and Country Brewery Book

Our first English brewing title and the oldest book we have 
republished yet, The Town and Country Brewery Book by W. Brande, 
circa 1830. A brilliant early 19th century English book discussing 
different types of regional English brewing techniques and their 
recipes.

At the time, Brande considered most of the books over the previous 50 
years to have been simple recompilations of the same information and 
the same mistakes. He felt that a new book with practical 
instructions was needed and he set out to produce The Town And 
Country Brewery Book. Thankfully he chose to fill the void he saw 
because the result of his work is almost 300 pages of period English 
brewing unlike any other book we have read.

What Brande achieved, in writing The Town and Country Brewery Book, 
was saving information about styles of beer and brewing techniques 
which don't exist today. Styles such as Devonshire White Ale and 
Edinburgh Oat Ale.

Never heard of some of these beers? One reason is that this book is 
extremely scarce! Very few copies of the original book appear to have 
survived the test of time. (We have only been able to locate 4 copies 
in libraries world wide.)

=============

	The Complete Practical Brewer, 1852, by M.L. Byrn

Not to be confused with the "Practical Brewer" produced by the MBAA 
during the mid to late 1900s, this is one of the early American 
brewing texts.  Authored by an American, M.L. Byrn, and printed by 
one of the earliest American publishers of technical books, Henry 
Carey Baird.
==============

	The Complete Practical Distiller, 1875, by M.L. Byrn

Originally published in 1854, a couple years after "The Complete 
Practical Brewer", M.L. Byrn and Henry Carey Baird once again teamed 
up to deliver the early American perspective to distilling. This book 
discusses different techniques and recipes for producing distilled 
spirits.

- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:58:03 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: out of style

Brewsters:

Carl Periloux frets about liking beers which are "out of style".  Don't fret,
it is OK to like beers which the beer police criticize.

I troubled about this very thing for a while in my early days of coming onto
the "organized" US brewing scene. I had been brewing independently for a
number of years
before Charlie P and minions came along and I had developed my own style
without worrying about the style I was brewing.   And frankly, I liked my
beers better
than the commercial "equivalents".  Like Carl, I enjoy my lagers at a higher
hops level and a full body, so I brew at a higher temperature and have a
"sweeter" wort.

I always worry about style pressures from some of our brewing clan as I
believe it's potential outcome is to quench creativity, especially in newer
brewers.

Where style considerations are important is in contests.
Then meeting style requirements must be taken into consideration.  The point
of  a contest, in my opinion, is to demonstrate to yourself as well as others
that you have control over your brewing process and can make whatever you
want, even if you care to make out of style brews at another time. I think
contests can be a useful learning tool if you have competent judges who write
more than a one word comment.

On one occasion, George Fix encouraged me to enter my beers in contests and
even criticized me because I hadn't. He entered hundreds of contests and that
was his interest.  For me, I have no interest, even at present, since I brew
my beers for me and my friends, but someday I might get interested in contests
and then I'll brew to style.

I do encourage new brewers to enter the contests for the excitement, meeting
other brewers and learning how to brew better beers.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley







Return to table of contents

---