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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Sam Adams Vienna Lager (David Towson)
  Collected knowledge on strains in bottle-conditioned beer? (Tim Cook - Systems Engineer)
  yeast infection / hand pumps (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?=)
  Saccharomycoses ("Jon Steinhauer")
  fuel alcohol / chimay clones (David Harsh)
  drilling stainless (Marc Sedam)
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Triangle_Test_&_Acid?= ("=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=")
  Re: Un-stump the HBD - you could be the one! (Jeff Renner)
  Brewer's yeast and yeast infections (ensmingr)
  RE: ethanol fuel?? ("Mike Sharp")
  Pubs in NC (james ray)
  Re: Brewer's yeast and yeast infections - NOT just another mommily ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: Sealing a conical fermenter lid - Silicon Choice ("Pete Calinski")
  Stupid pump questions (Michael)


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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:14:48 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Sam Adams Vienna Lager

A few digests ago, I asked for opinions of Sam Adams Vienna Lager.  I 
received four responses, one of which was very positive, and the other 
three were more or less negative, with the general complaint being "not 
enough taste".  But I also received some suggestions for other examples 
that I might be able to obtain.

For the record, I enjoyed it, although more on some days than on others, 
probably depending on what I had been drinking before the Sam Adams.  But 
then, I've never really thought Negra Modelo was all that great either.  It 
may be that I just don't care for the style.

Thanks to those who replied to my query - much appreciated.

Dave in Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: 22 Apr 2003 16:00:57 +1000
From: Tim Cook - Systems Engineer <tim.cook at sun.com>
Subject: Collected knowledge on strains in bottle-conditioned beer?

Having recently ventured into the world of liquid yeast & starters, a
question pops into my head any time I see mention of harvesting the
yeast from a well-known bottle-conditioned beer:

Does anyone know of an authoritative source on which bottle-conditioned
commercial beers do not remove their primary strain when bottling?

I ask this question because I think I already know the answer - no one
has collected this anywhere.

Well, if anyone wants to send me any such information, I volunteer to
collect and publish it.  I think such a collection would need
information along the lines of:

  Information		Example
  ===========		=======
  Name of beer 		Chimay Red (Rouge)
  Packaging		12 oz (355 ml)
  Where obtained	USA
  When obtained		2003
  Viability		Sediment from 1 x 330 ml in 1 litre starter - active in 7
days
  Confidence (that bottling strain is the primary strain)
			80 %
  Confirmed by		Tasting of home-brewed Chimay Red clone
			OR letter from Chimay staff
			OR e-mail from Chimay staff
			OR discussion with Wyeast staff
			...
  Reputed to also be	Wyeast 1214, White Labs WLP500

and the counter example:

  Name of beer 		Little Creatures Pale Ale
  Packaging		330 ml
  Where obtained	Australia
  When obtained		2003
  Viability		n/a
  Confidence (that bottling strain is the primary strain)
			0 %
  Confirmed by		Communication from brewery says it is different
			bottling strain

Regards,
Tim
Brewing in Melbourne (not the one in Florida), Victoria (not the one in
Canada)



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:48:59 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?= <a_w_lawton at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: yeast infection / hand pumps

Thanks for all the responses re kidney infections. 

Alan Meeker wrote- Drinking fresh homebrewed beer with
sufficient suspended viable yeast (e.g. - if not
decanted from the bottle properly) can lead to viable
yeast making it all the way through to the other end,
as it were.

This could well be the problem as scrumpy is usually
drunk cloudy and could well have viable yeast in
suspension.


Dave Larsen asked about British hand pumps, these are
known as beer engines and you should get plenty of
info typing that into a search engine.  They can be
found on google or from new for about 200
pounds(although I dont know of any US suppliers).  The
physical act of pulling the beer through the engine is
not difficult but keeping the beer in condition is. To
get the British cask conditioned taste the beer must
only be carbonated naturally from a secondary
fermentation in the cask no carbon dioxide or nitrogen
should be added to the beer. Under these conditions it
is not unusual for a cask to have a shelf life of no
more than one week. I believe you can get beer engine
style pumps to fit a CO2 system if you just like the
look. 

Alex Lawton
Winchester UK





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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:57:42 -0500
From: "Jon Steinhauer" <jsteinha at path.uab.edu>
Subject: Saccharomycoses

I have been following with only slight interest the article trail on
infections with Saccaromyces cerevesiae, but Dr. Meeker's most interesting
and controversial contribution was bait that I could not pass up.

Since I was skeptical I performed a brief literature search of my own part
revealing around 20 or so cases of infection with Saccharomyces in the
English language literature,  though I noticed a couple of old articles from
a French (meaning non-English language publications are often not
universally respected) journal.  The only cases that I can find are in
patients who are either immunocompromised (AIDS, bone marrow transplant,
neutropenia, etc.) or are critically ill, premature newborn, or who have
been treated with Saccharomyces species other than cerevesiae for diarrheal
conditions.

I also admit, I identified one recent report of a so-called,
non-immunocompromised patient with ulcerative colitis who had not been
treated (with steroids or other immunosuppression) developing a
Saccharomyces infection.  However, I would hardly consider such an
individual to have a normal immune system.

I would find it very reasonable to expect that many normal individuals are
"colonized" with non-virulent Saccharomyces species, such as cerevisiae, as
they are so ubiquitous in the environment, but colonization is not the same
as infection.  Normal women are usually colonized with another familiar
organism by the name of Lactobacillus, whose presence maintains an acidic
environment that normally prevents other, and sometimes virulent, organisms,
such as Candida sp. which are normal flora in the lower intestine, from
growing there.  Using the same argument, would women who overindulge in
lambics, Berliner weisse and sourdough bread should have lower odds for
infection.  You may want to be extra cautious in the meantime about letting
women near the brewery.  Just kidding!

In brief, though, normal, healthy people simply do NOT get Saccharomyces
cerevesiae infections.  If you know someone who did,  they better be on the
lookout for other underlying diseases.

If there are any important references, I have not found them, and I hope
Alan will post them, so that we assess their value for ourselves and so that
we may really learn something new today.

Have a good one!

J. Steinhauer



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:55:47 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: fuel alcohol / chimay clones

> Brew Wisconsin <brewwisconsin at yahoo.ca> writes:

brew wisconsin, brew wisconsin, brew down to that line!   (sorry...)

This may be a little off topic, but the problem with ethanol as a fuel 
from fermentation is that the distillation process is extraordinarily 
energy intensive and only results in 190 proof alcohol due to the low 
boiling azeotrope encountered in your distilling path.

In other words, it takes more energy to distill ethanol than you get by 
burning it.

- ----------------------
> BrianS <schar at cardica.com> relates his experience making a Chimay 
> clone:
> ....Our
> subjective opinion is that the beer from the first fermenter, using 
> some of
> the Chimay Red yeast, came out more "Chimay-like" than the beer from 
> the
> other fermenter... (which used the WhiteLabs Trappist yeast)

That doesn't surprise me.  It is MY subjective opinion that Chimay has 
gotten much "cleaner" over the years and the WL trappist produces a lot 
of phenols and esters, especially if fermented at the proper (high) 
temperatures.  It is also my subjective opinion that I would actually 
prefer the WL produced version for that reason.

And just so I don't have to don my asbestos suit, I'm not saying I 
don't like Chimay, just that it isn't as interesting a beer as it was 
10 years ago....

Dave Harsh					Bloatarian Brewing League
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:15:07 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: drilling stainless

This past weekend I managed to drill a perfect 7/8" hole in a SS keg 
with a regular Unibit step drill bit (not covered with Titanium) and a 
decent amount of cutting oil.  There were a few times that wisps of 
smoke appeared but I just geared back on the drill.  The overall process 
took 2-3 minutes and was facilitated by drilling a 1/8" starter hole in 
the proper location.

The very first step on the bit had a tiny chunk taken out but that was 
probably due to getting started.  I would guess this isn't the best 
thing on the planet for the drill bit, but I could easily drill out 
several more kegs, if necessary.

Thanks to everyone for your experiences which allowed me to take the $35 
plunge knowing it would work.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:13:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Triangle_Test_&_Acid?=

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:12:16 -0600, "pddey" <pddey at netzero.net> pondered:

> Now what stat tables are used?  It seems like a Chi Square sort of test
> - I have tons of stat books that are ripe for a good dusting if I need
> to dig out a stat table for reference.

Paul, you are on the right track.  The key is to keep firmly in mind what
the test is designed to accomplish, and that while figures do not lie, liars
always have the ability to figure.

The triangle test is designed to determine whether there is any significant
difference between two populations (A and B).  A number of samples are taken
from these populations; each sample containing one item from one population
and two items from the other.

A die can be used to help randomize how the samples are to be given to the
judges, such as whether they get two samples from population A or from B,
and where the unique sample will appear in the arrangement.  It is important
that is be completely random!  For each judge, roll the die and arrange the
three samples as follows:
     1 = AAB
     2 = ABA
     3 = ABB
     4 = BAA
     5 = BAB
     6 = BBA
The judges are merely asked to identify which of the three samples is
different from the other two.  All you record is whether they are correct or
not, and feed this information into the Chi Square analysis.

A statistical curiousity about the Chi Square test is that it cannot be used
to PROVE anything; all it can do is DISPROVE something.  That something is
called the "null hypothesis", which stated simply, is that there is NO
significant difference between the two populations A and B.

The idea is that an infinite number of monkeys could be given the test (or
the judges could simply flip a three-sided coin).  By pure chance, they
should correctly identify the one that is different 1 time out of 3.  The
Chi Square test tells you if there is a statistically significant difference
between the judges and such pure chance.  If there is a difference, then the
null hypothesis is disproven!

The most important thing to remember is that it does NOT tell you anything
about WHY the populations are different.  Nor does it tell you that one is
better than the other.  All it can tell you is that the judges are able to
determine a difference between them.

Now all that was for 2 populations.  If you have 8 populations, I would
recommend that you conduct a round-robin comparison among them.  Do the
triangle test for A against B, then A against C, and so on.  You would need
to conduct 28 triangle tests (8 items drawn 2 at a time yields 28
combinations).  You could split your judging pool in half, so that each
judge would only have to compare 14, although I am not sure if 5
observations is enough to get a good result.

Anyway you look at it, it sounds like fun!

- -- 
Regards,
Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:08:53 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Un-stump the HBD - you could be the one!

"Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at usa.dupont.com> is sounding desperate:

>A few years ago I made a great weizen using Yeast Lab W51.  I have never
>been able to duplicate these results using WYeast Wiehenstephen Wheat.  I'm
>trying to find a source for this Yeast Lab product - can anyone help?

I'm working on it!  Dan McConnell, who owned YCKCo, and produced of 
YeastLab liquid yeasts for GW Kent, has transferred his collection to 
WhiteLabs.  After your previous post, I emailed Chris White of 
WhiteLabs, but I think there was a confusion with numbering.  The 
YeastLab W-51 is/was W66 (the "W" being Weihenstephan) and the same 
yeast as YCKCo sold, I think, as W50.

I'll see if I can find anything more out.  If there is sufficient 
interest, who knows?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:01:45 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Brewer's yeast and yeast infections

Alan Meeker (see: http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4226.html#4226-2 
) is correct and Jeff Renner and I were wrong (see: 
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4224.html#4224-1 ). Saccharomyces 
cerevisiae can cause vaginitis.

I just did a search of PubMed/MedLine (see: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez ) for "(Saccharomyces 
cerevisiae) AND (vaginitis OR vagina)" and got 31 results.

After reviewing the abstracts of these papers, it appears that S. 
cerevisiae can cause vaginitis and that this may be a particular 
problem for workers (or spouses of workers) in the brewing and 
baking industries. However, it should be emphasized that 
vaginitis caused by S. cerevisiae is rare in general. Excerpts 
from a few recent papers: "vaginitis caused by Saccharomyces 
cerevisiae is extremely rare" (J Clin Microbiol 1999 
Jul;37(7):2230-5); "vaginitis caused by this organism (S. 
cerevisiae) has been reported only very rarely" (J Clin Microbiol 
1998 Feb;36(2):557-62); "vaginitis due to Saccharomyces species 
is extremely rare" (Clin Infect Dis 1993 Jan;16(1):93-9).

I call for an epidemiological study of S. cerevisiae-induced 
vaginitis among female homebrewers and spouses of male 
homebrewers. Pat - Any chance the HBD can fund this research?

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:34:29 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: ethanol fuel??


Brew Wisconsin speaks on ethanol fuel

"Again, I'm not sure what you want to fuel, but it
would seem a lot easier just to look up the nearest
gas station in your area that sells fuel ethanol
(although that might not be easy if you live outside
the Midwest)."

This is exactly the problem. While dual fuel cars are sold in the Pacific
Northwest, to my knowledge, there is not a single retail source of ethanol
fuel in the Puget Sound Region.

I'm not sure that economics is a perfect metric in this case.  While a
complete energy balance might come up negative, it's the source of the
energy that's important.  In the PNW, much of it is hydro, which is
relatively clean compared to, say, coal.  However, making ethanol fuel is an
interesting exercise (especially to a brewer), regardless of the economics,
and it's not all that hard to get a license to distill fuel.  If gasoline
every stays much over $2 a gallon...

A bit more OT:

I've often pondered the economics of dry farmed barley, or at least
minimally farmed Jerusalem Artichokes, where the distillation was powered by
burning the crop residue, the same as certain Hawaiian sugar companies do
with bagesse, the pulp left over from crushing the cane.  My Dad designed a
system for one company that not only netted them a positive energy balance,
and fueled their vehicles and tractors, in the end the profit from energy
sales exceeded the profit from making sugar...

Sorry about the OT ramble!

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:42:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: james ray <jnjnmiami at yahoo.com>
Subject: Pubs in NC

I am traveling to Asheville NC this weekend.  Which of
the brewpubs are the best to visit?  Are there any
beer stores in the area?  Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks,

James Ray
Montgomery, AL
rjraybrewer at aol.com



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:44:43 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Brewer's yeast and yeast infections - NOT just another mommily

So Alan, given that, brewer's yeast "Can lead to viable yeast making it all
the way through to the other end, as it were."

What would we get if we cultivated it and stepped it up to make a 5 gallon
batch?

On second thought, never mind.



Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:08:31 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Sealing a conical fermenter lid - Silicon Choice

I was in Lowe's just a few days ago and, in the caulk department, they had
DAP 8641.

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=40084-000000068-8641


Most noticeable because the tube is blue and says "100% silicone" as opposed
to "silicone II" or other substance like latex.  It is food grade and rated
to 400F.  Just $3.68.


To keep it from drying out, I form a glob of caulk over the opening and
release the pressure on the tube after each use.  Then just peal off the
glob and pull the trigger.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:20:17 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Stupid pump questions

I just received a pump from morebeer.com as a belated birthday present.
It's the one sold by morebeer.com as model H315, corresponding to March
model 809HS.  The instructions are a little, ah, sparse. I'm planning to
hook this to my CFC at first, and then we'll see what else I can use it
for.

In addition to buying disconnects (and I'm grateful to the HBD for the
thread on this very topic a month or two ago), I have some questions
about basic operation. First, do I need to do anything to prime the
pump besides starting it up slowly? With the discharge valve cracked
open and the suction valve open completely, it seems.

Second, how critical is pump placement here? The material from March
suggests that using the pump to lift liquid is a bad idea. Currently I
can't avoid this, as I siphon the wort from my brew kettle. Well, I
do have a spigot on my brew kettle--as part of an Easy-Masher--but it
doesn't handle the combination of pellet hops and Irish Moss well at
all.

Thanks in advance...


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