HOMEBREW Digest #4227 Wed 23 April 2003

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  Re: Sam Adams Vienna Lager (David Towson)
  Collected knowledge on strains in bottle-conditioned beer? (Tim Cook - Systems Engineer)
  yeast infection / hand pumps (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?=)
  Saccharomycoses ("Jon Steinhauer")
  fuel alcohol / chimay clones (David Harsh)
  drilling stainless (Marc Sedam)
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Triangle_Test_&_Acid?= ("=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=")
  Re: Un-stump the HBD - you could be the one! (Jeff Renner)
  Brewer's yeast and yeast infections (ensmingr)
  RE: ethanol fuel?? ("Mike Sharp")
  Pubs in NC (james ray)
  Re: Brewer's yeast and yeast infections - NOT just another mommily ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: Sealing a conical fermenter lid - Silicon Choice ("Pete Calinski")
  Stupid pump questions (Michael)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:14:48 -0400 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Sam Adams Vienna Lager A few digests ago, I asked for opinions of Sam Adams Vienna Lager. I received four responses, one of which was very positive, and the other three were more or less negative, with the general complaint being "not enough taste". But I also received some suggestions for other examples that I might be able to obtain. For the record, I enjoyed it, although more on some days than on others, probably depending on what I had been drinking before the Sam Adams. But then, I've never really thought Negra Modelo was all that great either. It may be that I just don't care for the style. Thanks to those who replied to my query - much appreciated. Dave in Bel Air, Maryland Return to table of contents
Date: 22 Apr 2003 16:00:57 +1000 From: Tim Cook - Systems Engineer <tim.cook at sun.com> Subject: Collected knowledge on strains in bottle-conditioned beer? Having recently ventured into the world of liquid yeast & starters, a question pops into my head any time I see mention of harvesting the yeast from a well-known bottle-conditioned beer: Does anyone know of an authoritative source on which bottle-conditioned commercial beers do not remove their primary strain when bottling? I ask this question because I think I already know the answer - no one has collected this anywhere. Well, if anyone wants to send me any such information, I volunteer to collect and publish it. I think such a collection would need information along the lines of: Information Example =========== ======= Name of beer Chimay Red (Rouge) Packaging 12 oz (355 ml) Where obtained USA When obtained 2003 Viability Sediment from 1 x 330 ml in 1 litre starter - active in 7 days Confidence (that bottling strain is the primary strain) 80 % Confirmed by Tasting of home-brewed Chimay Red clone OR letter from Chimay staff OR e-mail from Chimay staff OR discussion with Wyeast staff ... Reputed to also be Wyeast 1214, White Labs WLP500 and the counter example: Name of beer Little Creatures Pale Ale Packaging 330 ml Where obtained Australia When obtained 2003 Viability n/a Confidence (that bottling strain is the primary strain) 0 % Confirmed by Communication from brewery says it is different bottling strain Regards, Tim Brewing in Melbourne (not the one in Florida), Victoria (not the one in Canada) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:48:59 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?= <a_w_lawton at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: yeast infection / hand pumps Thanks for all the responses re kidney infections. Alan Meeker wrote- Drinking fresh homebrewed beer with sufficient suspended viable yeast (e.g. - if not decanted from the bottle properly) can lead to viable yeast making it all the way through to the other end, as it were. This could well be the problem as scrumpy is usually drunk cloudy and could well have viable yeast in suspension. Dave Larsen asked about British hand pumps, these are known as beer engines and you should get plenty of info typing that into a search engine. They can be found on google or from new for about 200 pounds(although I dont know of any US suppliers). The physical act of pulling the beer through the engine is not difficult but keeping the beer in condition is. To get the British cask conditioned taste the beer must only be carbonated naturally from a secondary fermentation in the cask no carbon dioxide or nitrogen should be added to the beer. Under these conditions it is not unusual for a cask to have a shelf life of no more than one week. I believe you can get beer engine style pumps to fit a CO2 system if you just like the look. Alex Lawton Winchester UK Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:57:42 -0500 From: "Jon Steinhauer" <jsteinha at path.uab.edu> Subject: Saccharomycoses I have been following with only slight interest the article trail on infections with Saccaromyces cerevesiae, but Dr. Meeker's most interesting and controversial contribution was bait that I could not pass up. Since I was skeptical I performed a brief literature search of my own part revealing around 20 or so cases of infection with Saccharomyces in the English language literature, though I noticed a couple of old articles from a French (meaning non-English language publications are often not universally respected) journal. The only cases that I can find are in patients who are either immunocompromised (AIDS, bone marrow transplant, neutropenia, etc.) or are critically ill, premature newborn, or who have been treated with Saccharomyces species other than cerevesiae for diarrheal conditions. I also admit, I identified one recent report of a so-called, non-immunocompromised patient with ulcerative colitis who had not been treated (with steroids or other immunosuppression) developing a Saccharomyces infection. However, I would hardly consider such an individual to have a normal immune system. I would find it very reasonable to expect that many normal individuals are "colonized" with non-virulent Saccharomyces species, such as cerevisiae, as they are so ubiquitous in the environment, but colonization is not the same as infection. Normal women are usually colonized with another familiar organism by the name of Lactobacillus, whose presence maintains an acidic environment that normally prevents other, and sometimes virulent, organisms, such as Candida sp. which are normal flora in the lower intestine, from growing there. Using the same argument, would women who overindulge in lambics, Berliner weisse and sourdough bread should have lower odds for infection. You may want to be extra cautious in the meantime about letting women near the brewery. Just kidding! In brief, though, normal, healthy people simply do NOT get Saccharomyces cerevesiae infections. If you know someone who did, they better be on the lookout for other underlying diseases. If there are any important references, I have not found them, and I hope Alan will post them, so that we assess their value for ourselves and so that we may really learn something new today. Have a good one! J. Steinhauer Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:55:47 -0400 From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net> Subject: fuel alcohol / chimay clones > Brew Wisconsin <brewwisconsin at yahoo.ca> writes: brew wisconsin, brew wisconsin, brew down to that line! (sorry...) This may be a little off topic, but the problem with ethanol as a fuel from fermentation is that the distillation process is extraordinarily energy intensive and only results in 190 proof alcohol due to the low boiling azeotrope encountered in your distilling path. In other words, it takes more energy to distill ethanol than you get by burning it. - ---------------------- > BrianS <schar at cardica.com> relates his experience making a Chimay > clone: > ....Our > subjective opinion is that the beer from the first fermenter, using > some of > the Chimay Red yeast, came out more "Chimay-like" than the beer from > the > other fermenter... (which used the WhiteLabs Trappist yeast) That doesn't surprise me. It is MY subjective opinion that Chimay has gotten much "cleaner" over the years and the WL trappist produces a lot of phenols and esters, especially if fermented at the proper (high) temperatures. It is also my subjective opinion that I would actually prefer the WL produced version for that reason. And just so I don't have to don my asbestos suit, I'm not saying I don't like Chimay, just that it isn't as interesting a beer as it was 10 years ago.... Dave Harsh Bloatarian Brewing League Cincinnati, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:15:07 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: drilling stainless This past weekend I managed to drill a perfect 7/8" hole in a SS keg with a regular Unibit step drill bit (not covered with Titanium) and a decent amount of cutting oil. There were a few times that wisps of smoke appeared but I just geared back on the drill. The overall process took 2-3 minutes and was facilitated by drilling a 1/8" starter hole in the proper location. The very first step on the bit had a tiny chunk taken out but that was probably due to getting started. I would guess this isn't the best thing on the planet for the drill bit, but I could easily drill out several more kegs, if necessary. Thanks to everyone for your experiences which allowed me to take the $35 plunge knowing it would work. - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:13:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Triangle_Test_&_Acid?= On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:12:16 -0600, "pddey" <pddey at netzero.net> pondered: > Now what stat tables are used? It seems like a Chi Square sort of test > - I have tons of stat books that are ripe for a good dusting if I need > to dig out a stat table for reference. Paul, you are on the right track. The key is to keep firmly in mind what the test is designed to accomplish, and that while figures do not lie, liars always have the ability to figure. The triangle test is designed to determine whether there is any significant difference between two populations (A and B). A number of samples are taken from these populations; each sample containing one item from one population and two items from the other. A die can be used to help randomize how the samples are to be given to the judges, such as whether they get two samples from population A or from B, and where the unique sample will appear in the arrangement. It is important that is be completely random! For each judge, roll the die and arrange the three samples as follows: 1 = AAB 2 = ABA 3 = ABB 4 = BAA 5 = BAB 6 = BBA The judges are merely asked to identify which of the three samples is different from the other two. All you record is whether they are correct or not, and feed this information into the Chi Square analysis. A statistical curiousity about the Chi Square test is that it cannot be used to PROVE anything; all it can do is DISPROVE something. That something is called the "null hypothesis", which stated simply, is that there is NO significant difference between the two populations A and B. The idea is that an infinite number of monkeys could be given the test (or the judges could simply flip a three-sided coin). By pure chance, they should correctly identify the one that is different 1 time out of 3. The Chi Square test tells you if there is a statistically significant difference between the judges and such pure chance. If there is a difference, then the null hypothesis is disproven! The most important thing to remember is that it does NOT tell you anything about WHY the populations are different. Nor does it tell you that one is better than the other. All it can tell you is that the judges are able to determine a difference between them. Now all that was for 2 populations. If you have 8 populations, I would recommend that you conduct a round-robin comparison among them. Do the triangle test for A against B, then A against C, and so on. You would need to conduct 28 triangle tests (8 items drawn 2 at a time yields 28 combinations). You could split your judging pool in half, so that each judge would only have to compare 14, although I am not sure if 5 observations is enough to get a good result. Anyway you look at it, it sounds like fun! - -- Regards, Larry Bristol Bellville, TX http://www.doubleluck.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:08:53 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Un-stump the HBD - you could be the one! "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at usa.dupont.com> is sounding desperate: >A few years ago I made a great weizen using Yeast Lab W51. I have never >been able to duplicate these results using WYeast Wiehenstephen Wheat. I'm >trying to find a source for this Yeast Lab product - can anyone help? I'm working on it! Dan McConnell, who owned YCKCo, and produced of YeastLab liquid yeasts for GW Kent, has transferred his collection to WhiteLabs. After your previous post, I emailed Chris White of WhiteLabs, but I think there was a confusion with numbering. The YeastLab W-51 is/was W66 (the "W" being Weihenstephan) and the same yeast as YCKCo sold, I think, as W50. I'll see if I can find anything more out. If there is sufficient interest, who knows? Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:01:45 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: Brewer's yeast and yeast infections Alan Meeker (see: http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4226.html#4226-2 ) is correct and Jeff Renner and I were wrong (see: http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4224.html#4224-1 ). Saccharomyces cerevisiae can cause vaginitis. I just did a search of PubMed/MedLine (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez ) for "(Saccharomyces cerevisiae) AND (vaginitis OR vagina)" and got 31 results. After reviewing the abstracts of these papers, it appears that S. cerevisiae can cause vaginitis and that this may be a particular problem for workers (or spouses of workers) in the brewing and baking industries. However, it should be emphasized that vaginitis caused by S. cerevisiae is rare in general. Excerpts from a few recent papers: "vaginitis caused by Saccharomyces cerevisiae is extremely rare" (J Clin Microbiol 1999 Jul;37(7):2230-5); "vaginitis caused by this organism (S. cerevisiae) has been reported only very rarely" (J Clin Microbiol 1998 Feb;36(2):557-62); "vaginitis due to Saccharomyces species is extremely rare" (Clin Infect Dis 1993 Jan;16(1):93-9). I call for an epidemiological study of S. cerevisiae-induced vaginitis among female homebrewers and spouses of male homebrewers. Pat - Any chance the HBD can fund this research? Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY http://hbd.org/ensmingr Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:34:29 -0700 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: ethanol fuel?? Brew Wisconsin speaks on ethanol fuel "Again, I'm not sure what you want to fuel, but it would seem a lot easier just to look up the nearest gas station in your area that sells fuel ethanol (although that might not be easy if you live outside the Midwest)." This is exactly the problem. While dual fuel cars are sold in the Pacific Northwest, to my knowledge, there is not a single retail source of ethanol fuel in the Puget Sound Region. I'm not sure that economics is a perfect metric in this case. While a complete energy balance might come up negative, it's the source of the energy that's important. In the PNW, much of it is hydro, which is relatively clean compared to, say, coal. However, making ethanol fuel is an interesting exercise (especially to a brewer), regardless of the economics, and it's not all that hard to get a license to distill fuel. If gasoline every stays much over $2 a gallon... A bit more OT: I've often pondered the economics of dry farmed barley, or at least minimally farmed Jerusalem Artichokes, where the distillation was powered by burning the crop residue, the same as certain Hawaiian sugar companies do with bagesse, the pulp left over from crushing the cane. My Dad designed a system for one company that not only netted them a positive energy balance, and fueled their vehicles and tractors, in the end the profit from energy sales exceeded the profit from making sugar... Sorry about the OT ramble! Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:42:35 -0700 (PDT) From: james ray <jnjnmiami at yahoo.com> Subject: Pubs in NC I am traveling to Asheville NC this weekend. Which of the brewpubs are the best to visit? Are there any beer stores in the area? Any advice would be helpful. Thanks, James Ray Montgomery, AL rjraybrewer at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:44:43 -0400 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Brewer's yeast and yeast infections - NOT just another mommily So Alan, given that, brewer's yeast "Can lead to viable yeast making it all the way through to the other end, as it were." What would we get if we cultivated it and stepped it up to make a 5 gallon batch? On second thought, never mind. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:08:31 -0400 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Sealing a conical fermenter lid - Silicon Choice I was in Lowe's just a few days ago and, in the caulk department, they had DAP 8641. http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=40084-000000068-8641 Most noticeable because the tube is blue and says "100% silicone" as opposed to "silicone II" or other substance like latex. It is food grade and rated to 400F. Just $3.68. To keep it from drying out, I form a glob of caulk over the opening and release the pressure on the tube after each use. Then just peal off the glob and pull the trigger. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:20:17 -0500 From: Michael <grice at binc.net> Subject: Stupid pump questions I just received a pump from morebeer.com as a belated birthday present. It's the one sold by morebeer.com as model H315, corresponding to March model 809HS. The instructions are a little, ah, sparse. I'm planning to hook this to my CFC at first, and then we'll see what else I can use it for. In addition to buying disconnects (and I'm grateful to the HBD for the thread on this very topic a month or two ago), I have some questions about basic operation. First, do I need to do anything to prime the pump besides starting it up slowly? With the discharge valve cracked open and the suction valve open completely, it seems. Second, how critical is pump placement here? The material from March suggests that using the pump to lift liquid is a bad idea. Currently I can't avoid this, as I siphon the wort from my brew kettle. Well, I do have a spigot on my brew kettle--as part of an Easy-Masher--but it doesn't handle the combination of pellet hops and Irish Moss well at all. Thanks in advance... Return to table of contents
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