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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  wit (Darrell.Leavitt)
  yeast infection.. (Darrell.Leavitt)
  RE: coffee on tap??? ("Steve Jones")
  PBR Retro Chic (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Hanover, NH (Phil Sides Jr)
  Re: Kegging Newbie (David Towson)
  Binder Clips, Door Gaskets, & Kegs ("Chip Stewart")
   (Bob Hall)
  Pump question (summary of responses) (Michael)
  Bottles, Starch Haze, Sealing Conicals, wit ("Sven Pfitt")
  stats and Excel ("Christopher T. Ivey")
  More on harsh bitterness in CAP ("Dan Gross")
  gyn thread of discussion (J & B Gallihue)
  bottle conditioning w/wort ("D. Clark")
  Vienna Lager ("Patrick Hughes")
  Predicting mash pH (David Humes)


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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 07:37:00 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: wit

Marc;
  I read with interest your Wit recipe.  I made one myself recently, and it
was very close to yours.  What I wonder , though, is : what is the effect
of a 2 stage rest (ie stopping at 158F)  rather than ramping through that
temperature range?  ie does it really matter with the malts that we
use,...or would the resulting brew be different?...

 ..Darrell


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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 07:42:19 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: yeast infection..

John, in beautiful downtown Montreal, states that he may have a yeast
infection,...well..his wort may...John did you refrigerate the wort?  It
sounds like it could be fermenting...perhaps you have a good batch
going....

 I'd give it a few days, then taste...

 ..Darrell


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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:49:38 -0400
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: coffee on tap???

Jim wonders why his iced coffed on tap is tasting acidic. I
don't think it is anything inherently in the coffee, but it
is something in the coffee.Jim, I suspect that your coffee
is becoming slightly carbonated as the cold liquid absorbs
some of the CO2, just like your beer does, and is forming
carbonic acid. I would recommend using Nitrogen instead of
CO2 - that won't be absorbed into the cold liquid.

Steve

"Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished
by being governed by those who are dumber." - Plato





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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:59:53 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: PBR Retro Chic

Brewers

Picked this up from the AoB Brewers' Forum.  Interesting article. 
Thanks to Jim Dorsch for posting it.

Jeff
=============
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:41 AM
Subject: PBR Retro Chic

Pabst Blue Ribbon returns to favor in hip circles:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50969-2003Apr18.html

Jim Dorsch/American Brewer

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:05:12 -0400
From: Phil Sides Jr <altoidman at altoidman.com>
Subject: Re: Hanover, NH

Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu> asks:
>Obligatory Beer Post:  I'm looking at a job at Dartmouth, in
>Hanover NH.  Any good beer stores or brewpubs?  Is there a local homebrew
>store?  How about a homebrew club?  Do people brew all winter?  I'm living
>in the South right now, so the concept of "winter" is still a little bit
>odd.

I am not too sure about homebrew supply stores on the Vermont side, but 
this area is really the homebrew supply doldrums.  The is (or perhaps was) 
a shop in West Lebanon, NH.  It is the Seven Barrel Brewery (also you 
closest brewpub).  I just heard last week that they may have closed the 
homebrew shop adjacent to the brewpub, but I have no confirmation.  The 
other shops in New Hampshire aren't even close to Hanover, Jasper's in 
Nashua and Stout Billy's in Portsmouth.  They are both pretty decent supply 
stores though.  On the New Hampshire side, The Flying Goose in New London 
is not too far down I89 and Elm City Brewing Company in Keene is a short 
drive from Hanover as well.  Now the really good news is that you won't be 
too far from McNeill's in Brattleboro, Vermont.  As far as beer stores are 
concerned, you will probably find the stores in New Hampshire are mostly 
bad.  You will find locally brewed beers here and there along with 
megaswill, but not much else.  Vermont has some really great beer stores, 
but I have never shopped near the NH border there, only up in the 
Burlington area.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD

Need a good laugh today?
Join Altoidman's Humor List - http://www.altoidman.com



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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:32:36 -0400
From: David Towson <SpamSink at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kegging Newbie

In HBD 4230, Caryl (BTW, how is that pronounced?) asks several questions 
concerning kegging.

1. "Is it possible to bottle and keg each batch?"  Yes indeed.  I do this 
from time to time.  I start by kegging all the beer, and then I bottle from 
a keg using 3 - 5 PSI of CO2 pressure to pump it out.  After purging the 
keg with CO2 (I fill it completely full of water, and then pump out the 
water with CO2 pressure), I boil my priming sugar in a little water and 
pour that into the keg.  Then, I run the beer into the keg through the 
liquid-out fitting so it is discharged at the bottom of the keg with no 
splashing, and it mixes with the priming sugar solution.  Then, I close the 
lid, add the CO2 pressure, and proceed with bottling from the keg.  After 
filling as many bottles as I want, I leave the rest of the beer in the keg, 
all primed and ready to self-carbonate.

2. "Anyone [have] problems with priming in kegs?"  I don't, but it won't 
work unless the lid is sealed.  And that means you will have to put about 5 
PSI CO2 pressure in the keg after filling to seat the O-ring around the lid.

3. "Are they hard to clean/santitize (sic)?"  No.  Since the lid is big 
enough to admit your hand and arm, you can use "elbow grease" if 
needed.  But that is rarely necessary once the keg has been thoroughly 
cleaned initially.  To scrub a keg, I use a ScotchBrite pad and some 
oxalic-acid-bearing scouring powder.  The brand that I can get locally is 
called "Zud", and I can find it in both grocery and hardware stores.  There 
are others, but I don't know the names.  This stuff does a superb job of 
cleaning stainless steel, but it does leave a dark residue if not rinsed 
very thoroughly.  To be sure of removing that, I always wipe the cleaned 
surface with a damp paper towel.  And BTW, this cleaner does a nice job of 
prettying-up the outside of the keg too.  Once I have gotten a new keg 
clean, I usually just use a short soak (15 - 30 min) with a chemical 
cleaner after each use to get it ready for the next time.  There are lots 
of cleaners to pick from such as PBW, Straight-A, B-Brite, and TSP.  But 
look at the inside of the keg after the chemical soak, and if it doesn't 
appear clean, then grab the ScotchBrite and go at it.  To sanitize my kegs, 
I use Iodophor.  Five minutes contact time is plenty.  Star San also works 
well, but I think it's rather expensive.  You can also use bleach, but it's 
very important to get it out of the keg as soon as it has done its job, 
because it will corrode stainless steel if left too long.  I don't know the 
minimum contact time for bleach, but fifteen minutes should be enough, and 
that little won't hurt the keg.

4. "...how long will a kegged beer last after being tapped?"  I don't think 
the act of tapping has anything to do with it.  If the beer is handled well 
and not allowed to pick up oxygen, then the beer will last as long as it 
would in a bottle.  But keeping air away from the beer is much easier in a 
bottle than in a keg.  Once you have filled a bottle to within an inch or 
so of the top, there just isn't much surface area left to be exposed to 
air.  But in a keg, there is no narrow neck to limit the exposure, and you 
have to be careful to keep a blanket of CO2 on top of the beer.  That's why 
you purge the keg first, and then flow the beer in quietly under the CO2 
blanket.  It's also a good idea to cover the open top of the keg with a 
paper towel while you are running-in the beer so room air currents don't 
disturb the CO2.

5. "Is there any problem with tapping and untapping(?) a keg over and 
over?"  Other than it's being messy, I don't think so.  But each time you 
remove the liquid connector from a pressurized keg, a little beer drools 
down the side of the keg, and you have to clean it up.  And given the low 
cost of connectors, hose, and picnic taps, it hardly seems worth the 
bother.  Just make-up as many serving hoses as you need, and be done with it.

Dave Towson in Bel Air, Maryland
Email: dtowson at comcast dot net 



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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:22:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chip Stewart" <Charles at thestewarts.com>
Subject: Binder Clips, Door Gaskets, & Kegs

On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
commented on Sealing a conical:

> I have a TMS 12.2, and bought the gasket from BBMB. It is a split tube,
> sealed together at the end to form a ring. It slips over the edge of the
> hopper. However, during fermentation, I get no bubbles out of the airlock
> unless there is a weight of 15+ lbs on the lid, so it doesn't provide an
> airtight seal. I haven't devised a hold-down for my lid. . . 

Steve -

Two words: Binder Clips.

I use six of the medium sized clips to seal the polycarbonate lid I made for my
CCF.  Works like a charm.  It started as a temporary solution, but works so
well, I don't plan on changing it now.  I may, however, get some silicone tubing
instead of the "D" shaped neoprene door gasket (Lowe's) I'm currently using
(though it's working well, too, and I have plenty of it - I've been using a new
piece every time).

Then, on Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Kegging Newbie Caryl Hornberger Slone
<chornberger10 at comcast.net> asked:

> Is it possible to bottle and keg each batch.  Maybe I cold just start making
> 6 gallon batches: keg 5 and bottle 1.  I'd add sugar to prime the whole
> batch.  Anyone problems with priming in kegs? Are they hard to
> clean/santitize?

You could do that.  Or you could just keg as much as you want unprimed and force
carbonate, then bottle the rest, dropping a couple of PrimeTabs (NAJASC) in each
bottle.

> But this still leaves the question, how long will a kegged beer last after
> being tapped?  Since it's filled with CO2, it should be a while.  Lets say I
> have a couple of kegs and I want to drink a glass or two from a different
> keg each night.  Is there any problem with tapping and untapping(?) a keg
> over and over?

Why? Just get more taps!  I've got two 5 gal. kegs and two 3's in the little
chest freezer I use.  Most of my brews are on tap for a couple of months.  I keg
the brews I drink more of (rye ales, stouts, pales ales, pilsners, etc) in the
larger kegs, and stuff like imperial stouts and other high gravity brews in the
2.5's or 3's.  Four is enough, isn't it?  If not, you still have aforementioned
bottles.

> I wouldn't refrigerate the kegs since I don't have fridge room. . . 

I'd recommend making the fridge room.  It takes a lot more CO2 to carbonate warm
beer, and it sounds terribly complicated to come up with a chiller compared to
picking up a small chest freezer for a hundred and a half or so.

> If anyone knows of a good FAQ for kegging that would answer all my
> questions, please point me that way.

To begin with, try:
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.1/fleming.html
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.1/techcomm.html
http://w3.tvi.cc.nm.us/~austin/keg.html
http://brewery.org/brewery/library/CO2charts.html
There are a ton more sites on kegging

Peace, Love, and Beer,

Chip Stewart
Gaithersburg, MD
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com/brewing

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:50:00 -0400
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: 

I agree that Stan Burnett is a lucky guy. Bohemian lager in the smaller 
towns like Tabor is still quite a bargain. My wife taught near Havlickuv 
Brod during the 96-97 school year, the home of Rebel which is currently 
being imported to the US. Good Czech lager, but during my visits I kept 
going back to the taverns that had Urquell or, as Dr. Pivo suggests, 
Bernard on tap. We've been back several times since and though the beer may 
or may not have changed much over the past decade, it still seems like 
another galaxy compared to what is mass produced here.

Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH



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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:33:34 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Pump question (summary of responses)

Originally I asked if the pump I bought (model H315 from morebeer.com,
March model 809HS) a) needed priming and b) how important placement
of the pump was. I also mentioned c) that I had trouble getting flow
through my Easy Masher when I use hop pellets and Irish Moss.

Enough people responded to me off the digest that I'd like to summarize
(for the benefit of anyone searching the HBD, if nothing else).

1. You'll need to use gravity to get liquid flowing into the pump. Lou
King suggested to put the pump at the lowest point in the system and
let it push the wort back up. The pump should have no problem pushing
the wort back up, and it will be easier to prime.  
2. Don't let it run dry! (I did have this one figured out already.)
3. Use a ballcock on the output end to control flow. If you try to
restrict flow into the pump, the pump will run dry. (I had not figured
this out.)  
4. The quick disconnects from US Plastic will clog if the very first
runnings from the mash contain particulate matter. Recirculate by hand,
then use the pump.  
5. Use whole or plug hops. Whole hops will act like a filter; a ratio of
2 parts whole hops to 1 part pellet hops was recommended. I tried this
today with my Easy-Masher and whole hops, and it worked quite well. ( I
don't have the disconnects yet, so I didn't use the pump.) 

Thanks to Kent Fletcher, Lou King, Mike Zapolski, Josh Jensen, Maury,
Kevin Mueller and John Scime, and I apologize if I've missed anyone.


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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:47:22 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bottles, Starch Haze, Sealing Conicals, wit

I'm lazy so I combined the subjects..

1. Bottles - I get mine from the local beer warehouse. They won't sell me 
beer because I have no license, but The Budwiser Distributer will sell me 
nice heavy Budwiser Boxes full of empty bottles for $2 per case. They are 
mixed, have cigaretts in some, etc. I soak them in 1/2 cup chlorox to five 
gallons or water for a week to remove nasties (human induced and otherwise) 
and to loosten the labels. Scrub, inspect, sort, etc...

2. Starch Haze - along with protein haze, I can not taste it, so I don't 
worry about it unless I'm brewing for a comp. If I'm brewing for a comp, I 
don't worry about it either, because I don't brew specifically for comps 
either...

3. Sealing a SS Conical -  My SS Cylindor-Conical is a 16.5 gallon custom 
made one. The lid has a 2" lip around it and drops down to cover it quite 
nicely. That said, I am concerned about fruit flies that seem to love the 
smell of fermneting wort. I am planning on drilling a hole in the top for an 
airlock, and will duct tape the lid in place when fermenting during the 
warmer seasnons. Yup, I'm lazy....

Wit

Brewed two batches recently. One 1.050 OG mashed in a gott and one 1.069OG 
mashed in the half barrel system ont eh same day.

Same basic recipe, just more of the same in the high gravity version, and I 
added black pepper to it. Both are really good. In fact, I'm having a glass 
of the stronger version now. Be aware that Bulgar Wheat will give a good bit 
of color, so it is not visually a good wit but tastes great.

I got the Bulgar wheat (Steam Gelatinized) from the local health food store 
for 0.55/lb. It was an experiment.


41.4     6.00 lbs. Pilsener                      Belgium
13.8     2.00 lbs. Wheat Malt                    Germany
34.5     5.00 lbs. Bulgar Wheat                  USA
3.4     0.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt
6.9     1.00 lbs. Flaked Oats                   America

1.50 oz.    Czech Saaz               Whole    2.50  12.3  First WH
1.50 oz.    Styrian Goldings         Whole    2.70  13.3  First WH
0.50 oz.    Styrian Goldings         Whole    2.70   0.8  5 min.
0.50 oz.    Czech Saaz               Whole    3.50   1.1  5 min.

0.30 Oz     Sweet Orange Peel              Spice      5 Min.(boil)
0.10 Oz     Irish Moss                     Fining    15 Min.(boil)
0.10 Oz     Grains of Paradise             Spice      5 Days(boil)
0.75 Oz     Corriander Seed                Spice      5 Min.(boil)
1.00 Oz     Bitter Orange Peel             Spice     10 Min.(boil)

Acid Rest Temp :              95  Time:  30
Protein Rest Temp :          135  Time:  15
Intermediate Rest Temp :     144  Time:  25
Saccharification Rest Temp : 158  Time:  60
Mash-out Rest Temp :         165  Time:  30
Sparge Temp :                170  Time:  30

WLP400 Belgian WIt Yeast

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:13:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Christopher T. Ivey" <cti3c at unix.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: stats and Excel

How did we get so far afield of beer & brewing?  I'll try to make it
quick...

AJ advocates using a computer to calculate p-values from the binomial
distribution, and I couldn't agree more strongly!  Why do this stuff by
hand (or even with a hand calculator)?  I wouldn't necessarily trust the
results from Excel though.

Earlier I lambasted Excel's performance for routine statistical
calculations, but AJ defended its reliability.  L. Knusel, writing in the
journal Computational Statistics and Data Analysis (1998, vol 26:
375-377) says about Excel that "...the computation of some discrete
distributions [including the binomial] fails even for probabilities in the
central range between 0.01 and 0.99 and even for parameter values that
cannot be judged as too extreme."  and cautions against "using Excel
functions for scientific purposes."  This sentiment was also echoed by BD
McCullough and B Wilson, who said in the same journal (1999, 31: 27-37)
that "Excel's performance in [estimation, random number generation, and
statistical distributions] is found to be inadequate. Persons desiring to
conduct statistical analyses of data are advised not to use Excel."

Again, these tests are based on standardized tests using datasets produced
by NIST.  The problems were reported as early as 1994 in Excel version 4
and persist (or in some cases have worsened--see McCullough & Wilson 2002,
Comput Stat Data An 40: 713-721) through current releases (Excel 2000 and
XP).

I use Excel regularly to move numbers around, sorting, organizing data,
etc.  I would never trust my data, however, to those pre-programed
"functions."  Jon Honeyball (writing in PC Pro, December 1999, Issue 62:
248-255) summarized the problems with Excel's statistical calculations as,
"...the only applicable words are 'avoid' and 'plague.'"

But hey, unless Paul is planning to publish the results of his
triangle test in a peer-reviewed journal--maybe it's close enough!

Chris in Champaign IL




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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:04:58 -0400
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: More on harsh bitterness in CAP

Thank you all for ideas on the cause of a harsh bitterness in my first CAP.
Jeff Renner asks if I checked the ph during mash or runoff.  No I didn't and
I certainly will do so the next time.
One other thing I didn't think about until after posting my first message
last week was that I might have mishandled the yeast and caused some sort of
problem.  I had intended to brew about two weeks before I actually got the
chance and so I kept stepping the yeast up in a gallon container for almost
three weeks.  I would let it ferment the starter for two or three days then
pour off the beer and add another half gallon of wort.  This probably added
up to about five generations before I actually pitched the yeast in the
beer.  I wonder if I caused a problem somewhere along the line.  I did end
up with a large quantity of yeast and the ferment went quite well at 48
degrees.
I can't wait to give the CAP another try because up front I can taste a hint
of what it is supposed to be like. Also this is the best looking beer I have
every brewed, it is crystal clear and the head is like whipped egg whites.
If I ignore the bad finish, it has real potential.

Dan Gross
Olney, Md



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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:37:20 -0400
From: J & B Gallihue <jgallihue at comcast.net>
Subject: gyn thread of discussion

Dear Fellow HBDers,

I invite those of you interested in any further discussion of yeast
infections to continue them privately or take them to sci.med.obgyn, (a
newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of the science and practice of
obstetrics).  I learned a few things and appreciate the free flow of
discussion.  Now I'm done and make a motion we move on to other homebrew
topics.

Thanks

Joel Gallihue
Columbia, MD



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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:24:06 -0400
From: "D. Clark" <clark at capital.net>
Subject: bottle conditioning w/wort

Hi list,

Here's a question for the collective.  I have been all grain brewing for a 
while now, and all of my beer goes into kegs, but on occasion I will put up 
a six pack if I happen to have over 5 gallons or if I want to enter a brew 
in a local competition.  To condition my beers, I have been using primetabs 
with what I would call only limited success.  I have put four tabs per 
bottle and have seen only mild carbonation in three different beers.  I had 
much more CO2 production using corn sugar or DME when I was bottling.

I have a wit in secondary now.  I saved out wort from the boil to add to my 
bottles when I was ready to keg and bottle this batch.  How much raw wort 
should I add to each 12 ounce bottle to achieve good carbonation?  O.G. was 
1.042 for 5 gallons and was 1.010 in the secondary.  Any help would be 
appreciated.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, New York



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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:42:16 -0500
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Vienna Lager

   David Towson asks about Vienna Lager. I stated that Capital City had
authentic well balanced German beers. I actually meant Capital Brewery in
Wisconsin. Two different breweries.
Patrick




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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:41:32 -0400
From: David Humes <dhumes001 at comcast.net>
Subject: Predicting mash pH

I was wondering if anyone as some practical experience with the Kolbach
equation for predicting mash pH?  It shows up in a couple of the popular
homebrewing books with rather obvious mistakes.  AJ posted what I believe is
the correct equation in HBD #2648.  It goes like this:

pH = 5.8 + [0.00168 Alk(ppm as CaCO3) - 0.0012 Ca(mg/L) - 0.000982 Mg(mg/L)]

It is assumed that a 100% pale malt mash in distilled water will have a pH
of 5.8.  I routinely achieve a mash pH that is lower than what this equation
predicts, which is good.  But I wonder why the equation fails to provide a
useful result.

My water has 50ppm Alkalinity, 25.8ppm Ca, 6.3ppm Mg and a pH of 7.8.  For a
Bavarian wheat that I brewed yesterday I added an extra 50ppm Ca in the form
of CaCl2, so the total Ca was about 76ppm.  The Kolbach equation predicts a
pH of 5.8 for this mash, but I hit around 5.5.  The recipe is 61% wheat, 31%
Pilsner, and 8% Munich.  I know that Munich is a roasted malt that lowers
pH, but I don't think it accounts for the pH being 0.3 points below what the
equation predicts.  I use a high quality pH meter that I calibrate each
session, so I do not believe that is the source of the error.  I keep
wondering about the 5.8 in the equation.  Seems like it's a big assumption.
I suppose I could do the distilled water mash and see what I get.  Any
ideas?

Thanks.

- --Dave




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---