HOMEBREW Digest #4252 Thu 22 May 2003

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  Dear Mr. S- (ensmingr)
  Sugar / Manifold for Batch Sparging (John Palmer)
  Chilly, chili/chile ("Dave Burley")
  1. Oz brew 2. CAP 3. Flat Tire (Brew Wisconsin)
  Re: Manifold for batch sparge (Denny Conn)
  Re: oak barrel aging (Jeff Renner)
  RE: oak barrel aged beer (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: Yeast pitching (Jeff Renner)
  sugar nit 2 (Alan Meeker)
  RE: oak barrel aged beer (Jeff Renner)
  Madison, WI ("Richard Schmittdiel")
  National Homebrew Conference Rooming ("Martin Brungard")
  re: Predicting Flavour ("-S")
  Size matters? ("Eyre")
  RE: chiles and kegging (Brian Lundeen)
  Ft. Worth Water (Augie Altenbaumer)
  Re: brewing enzymes link/ serious pepper comment ("-S")
  Good beer in DC ("Dean")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 01:02:20 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: Dear Mr. S- Dear Mr. -S, Regarding your recent HBD post, <http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4248.html#4248-2> ... As a Marxist, and a lover of curry, Pez, KoolAid, peppermint schnapps, PBS, sugar-coated cereals (especially 'Peanut Butter Cap'n Crunch'), Edsels, disco, SPAM, TV, and public education, I deeply resent being associated with homebrewers who use hot peppers in their beer. YUK! Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY http://hbd.org/ensmingr Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:52:09 -0700 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Sugar / Manifold for Batch Sparging Thanks to everyone who wrote to educate me on intricacies of glucose and organic chemistry. It reinforces my every reason for choosing a career in metallurgy! ;-) I think the bottom line here is to state that dextrose is glucose, and leave it at that. *** Ken asks what type of lautering system is needed for batch sparging. My fluid flow and lautering manifold design discussions are for continuous sparging where the performance of the process depends on uniformly rinsing all areas of the grainbed under constant flow conditions. Batch sparging and no-sparge (where the standing wort is completely drained from the grainbed) do not depend on rinsing and therefore do not require the wide area coverage of false bottoms and manifolds. A Bazooka screen, or similar device works almost as well as a false bottom in this scenario. Why Almost? Because as the grainbed is almost completely drained, there is still going to be low flow regions out at the edges of the grainbed away from the screen/single pipe that will retain wort and not drain well. A false bottom has a better chance of completely draining the outer regions, but the difference in efficiency is much smaller than the comparison between a single pipe versus a false bottom under continuous sparging/constant flow conditions. I don't think that there is a practical difference in efficiency between them. Good Brewing, John John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:27:47 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Chilly, chili/chile Brewsters, Robert Marshall chides Steve Alexander for not being able to spell chilE and then steps in it himself by not knowing that 'chili' is the legitimate spelling for what we North of the Border eat made with tomato sauce, browned up hamburger, onions, sometimes garlic, small red beans or, traditionally, red kidney beans and flavored with chili powder. Chili powder contains chile pepper, cumin and other spices like oregano. Sometmes we call it Chili soup. We most often eat it in the winter when it is chilly, but sometimes have it on our hot dogs year 'round and usually then without the beans. When I was in graduate school, the best chili could be had at Frank's Bar in Riverside, CA. It always tasted better after lab work, on the way home, at 11:00 PM or so after it had been cooking since 10 AM. The beers didn't hurt. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:44:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Brew Wisconsin <brewwisconsin at yahoo.ca> Subject: 1. Oz brew 2. CAP 3. Flat Tire 1. Phil Yates <phil.yates at bigpond.com>: Subject: News From Australia > you can't really make a > genuine Ozzie beer without the right ingredients. > Some might ask why you > would bother? Well the rapid growth of the > Australian micro brewing industry > is producing commercial beers like we haven't had a > chance to try in years. I've twice gotten to judge with Chuck Hahn of Hahn/Malt Shovel/James Squire/multiple identities brewery, and can attest that a hand-carried bottle of his IPA is a first rate beer, and not at all like the oxidised James Squire "amber" that has shown up in BOTM shipments into the States. Fellow homebrew club members and world travellers have had brought back good reports (and even a beer or two) from other Australian craft brewers. To say that "Foster's is Australian for beer" is a slander against Australian breweries! 2. SpamZapper <spamzapper at comcast.net> Subject: Jeff R & CAP > Hey Jeff. Liked the plug for CAP and CACA. But.... > I am wondering > why you are not pushing Classic Lite American > Pilsner? <g> ...and let's not forget Classic Regular American "Pilsner"! 3. Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: fat tire > I have to put my vote up for New Belgium's Fat Tire, > and their other fine products as well. I don't know > how many of their beers are available in each of [snip... Michael describes other NBB beers] > But as far as american brews go, New Belgium truely > is a tribute the ability of american brewers. And here's the issue: Yes, great brewery.... FANTASTIC brewer/brewery, great people... But Flat Tire is their least interesting beer. Tripel, Abbey, Folie, Brussels Black, et cetera... Pick just about anything from that brewery EXCEPT for that one. Maybe Fat Tire is the mass market product that provides the cash flow that makes it easier for NBB to do everything else, but then you have to decide what you're honouring. Is it respect for their marketing ability, or the distinctiveness of their beers? Considering that we're talking about something for a homebrewing magazine, I think you have an audience receptive to distinctive beers rather than merely what sells to Bud drinkers with extra discretionary income and who are a little more image conscious to want to be seen drinking a craft beer without challenging their taste "buds" too much. ===== Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino Columnist, Great Lakes Brewing News Member, North American Guild of Beer Writers Winner: 2001--Culture Feature (Gold), 2000--Travel Feature (Silver) ***Sometimes alcohol and driving do go together--my car consumes more alcohol than I do.*** http://www.afdc.doe.gov/afv/ethanol.html *** Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:53:32 -0800 From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com> Subject: Re: Manifold for batch sparge Ken, one of the beauties of batch sparging is that it compensates for inefficient lautering systems. For example, I mash in a 48 qt. rectangular cooler with a single piece of SS hose braid running the length of it. People who look at it from a "traditional" point of view can't believe it works, but I consistently get in the neighborhood of 80% efficiency and make ribbon winning beers. As long as you're batch sparging, the design of your lautering system makes much less difference than it would for fly sparging. ------------------->Denny At 12:33 AM 5/21/03 -0400, Kenneth Peters wrote: >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:47:26 -0500 >From: "Kenneth Peters" <kpeters6 at cox.net> >Subject: Manifold for batch sparge - > >I've started batch sparging almost two years ago and have never looked back. I >am very pleased with my results and the process fits my needs and temperament. >I am using a Gott 5 gallon cooler with a 3B stainless steel false bottom and >have been pleased with the performance, although I do occasionally get stuck >sparges if I try to drain too rapidly. For several reasons (among them >capacity and overall size) , I am changing to a 28 qt. , rectangular cooler. >My question is - since I batch sparge, how important is the manifold system? >Do I need to engineer it in great detail (ala John Palmer's instructions) or >do I merely need to provide a draining capability ( I have a bazooka screen >that I am contemplating using) with a double Branch of slotted pipe?. I don't >believe channeling is an issue with Batch sparging, so I'm thinking that >simple is sufficient. Any opinions/advice will be appreciated. TIA, Ken Peters Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:51:34 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: oak barrel aging "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>, whose email address suggests that he may be one of those chile beer people, writes of oak aged beer: >In my unscientific observations stateside, most of the "oak barrel aging" is >done with oak barrels that were used for bourbon/whiskey aging first. I >even have vague memories of some breweries charing the inside of the barrels >first or maybe that was wineries. It all blurs. Just to clarify, perhaps, bourbon barrels are charred inside. This is a requirement for bourbon - that it be aged in new, charred oak barrels. If you've ever smelled wet oak lumber you'll know why bourbon smells/tastes the way it does. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: oak barrel aged beer Sorry about the last blank post (stupid, tiny laptop keyboard). I don't know anything about the flavor contribution of the beechwood aging of Bud, but I can attest to the contribution of Cyprus to Dixie Slow Brewed Lager. WHile I don't particulairly like it, I can definitely tell that there is a flavor that is best aligned with an oaky white wine. The Cyprus seems to be softer, but it is definitely there. Anyone know how dixie's process differs from Anheiser? Mike COlumbia, MO ===== "May those who love us, love us. And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts. And if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles So we'll know them by their limping." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:15:05 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Yeast pitching George "Chip" Bulla <chip_bulla at hotmail.com> is worrying in Apex, NC: >exactly how long from the time your wort is cooled, can you take to >pitch your yeast and not risk contamination? ... can I just let it >sit for an additional 30 or 40 minutes to allow further >flocculation of the break material, or am I risking contamination? 30-40 minutes is no problem whatsoever. Some brewers even wait overnight to pitch. As I recall, Dave Miller recommends this for lagers. His procedure is to rack into a carboy and let the trub settle out, then rack into the fermenter and pitch. As long as your sanitation procedures are good, there shouldn't be a problem. Of course, this may or may not improve your beer. There are arguments for leaving some cold break material in the fermenter for yeast nutrients and for CO2 nucleation. You might want to test your sanitation procedure by putting a cup of wort in a covered, sterile jar (don't seal tightly, though) and leave it in a warm place (80-90F). If after a few days it still smells sweet and not infected and isn't bubbling or gassy, that's a good sign. This is called a wort stability test, and you can find more details at http://www.strandbrewers.org/html/nhc2001-labtech.htm , along with some other simple quality control procedures that Louis Bonham presented at NHC2001. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:17:09 -0400 From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu> Subject: sugar nit 2 Not that this is likely ever to come up at the local homebrew store but the term dextrose is not simply a synonym for glucose. Dextrose is a particular /kind/ of glucose, namely D-glucose. There is also an L-form of glucose, but this is not the same as dextrose. As AJ pointed out recently, the D & L nomenclature (capital letters) refers to specific details of a molecule's absolute configuration, not to be confused with the d or l designation (lower case letters) which refers to the direction of rotation of plane polarized light. -Alan Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:12:12 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: RE: oak barrel aged beer Michael Hartsock <mhartsoc at netzero.com> wrote: >I don't know anything about the flavor contribution of >the beechwood aging of Bud, but I can attest to the >contribution of Cyprus to Dixie Slow Brewed Lager. >WHile I don't particulairly like it, I can definitely >tell that there is a flavor that is best aligned with >an oaky white wine. The Cyprus seems to be softer, >but it is definitely there. I wonder if that is really cypress you are tasting, for several reasons. I took a tour of Dixie several years ago, personally escorted by the brewer (very nice, I had written ahead), and the cypress lagering tanks are sealed with pitch. I saw the buckets of pitch in a stairway just outside the lagering cellar. What's more, they are also very, very old. I would think that any flavor from the wood, if it were exposed, would long since have been removed. Roger Deschner posted a great report of a tour of Dixie to a now defunct brewing list (ATIB Digest) in 1996, which I reposted to HBD last June http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3964.html. (hbd.org isn't responding as I write this, it can also be found at http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Beer/Threads/HBD/2002/3964 ). In it, Roger reported: "The gems here are the lagering tanks, which are made entirely of Louisiana swamp cypress wood. These original beauties are lovingly tended, and require quite a bit of maintenance. They are presently experimenting with a new type of wood treatment which may greatly increase the time between required periodic retreatments." >Anyone know how dixie's process differs from Anheiser? I think A/B kraeusens their beer for carbonation. I don't believe Dixie does, At any rate, Dixie just lagers in big tanks, and probably carbonates in them as well, then filters before bottling. This is typical of most breweries. A/B also filters, of course. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:13:31 -0700 From: "Richard Schmittdiel" <schmitrw at earthlink.net> Subject: Madison, WI Longtime lurker, first time poster here. Will be visiting Madison WI on business the second week of June. Can anyone provide recommendations as to where to go to drink good beer? Are there local brews worth seeking out that may not be distributed on the West Coast? Rich Schmittdiel Possum Holler Brewery in Southern California Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:30:09 -0400 From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com> Subject: National Homebrew Conference Rooming The NHC in Chicago is coming up in a month. It sounds like a pretty good event. I am looking for a non-smoking roommate to share the cost of a room at the convention. I wouldn't mind rooming with a lady, but I'm sure my wife would object. :-o If there are folks on the list that are interested, now is the time to act. Martin Brungard Tallahassee, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:15:25 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: Predicting Flavour Ant writes ... >The semi objective statement that I can make is that most people don't like >a sorghum content over about 20% of the grist as it tastes phenolic, in a >strong-tea type of way. I (and at least one other HBer) have had very similar experiences with rye. In small quantity rye adds a great mild and refreshing flavor to beer. In higher concentration the phenolics dominate and it gets very nasty very fast. M.Jackson suggested in writing that Roggen bier uses 50% rye malt ... maybe it's a different variety or dehusked, but certainly nothing like the Breiss rye malt I've used. 1/... .... >Using this, you are more likely to have success with your experiments >(although you may miss something radically different- the downside of any >model). Agreed. Often the odd combinations that "work" together can't be predicted (by me at least). The "rules" have more categorizing than predictive power. It doesn't seem odd except in retrospect, but why does the heavily Maillard & pyrrolysis flavor of toasted white bread go with the distinct flavors of cinnamon&sugar or else fruit jams ? Then consider toasted rye or pumpernickel which has even greater Maillard flavors, more bitterness and also interesting and nuanced spice-herbal flavor notes. The sweet toppings above don't work well in this case. Who figured out that sweet bright fennel works well in a pork sausage (along w/ salt, pepper and garlic) ? Most basic meat&veggie stews are bland w/o a dose of an aromatic herb like thyme bolstering the veggie aromatics. Why do salty and fruity flavors generally not work together ? Why does rich sweet eggy tiramisu work with fruit and chocolate but not onion or chive, while this is reversed for a scrambled egg ? Carrots and marjoram have an inexplicable affinity. I know people think about such things (probably more clearly than I do) tho' unfortunately little is written. Another whole topic in flavor is in using one flavor to hide another. The caffeine in a cup of tea or coffee is sharply bitter, but it's considerably reduced by the natural polyphenolics which mask the alkaloid bitterness. The phenolic bitterness is then further reduced by adding cream or milk (to form protein-phenol complexes). Mint on lamb is a direct attempt to mask the gamey flavors of the oils with a fresh herbal note, while I think rosemary, savory, oregano are far more balanced and less intrusive. Lemon on fish is to hide the rapidly oxidizing fish oils with antioxidant ascorbic acid and fruit notes. Running through all this is human perception of infection or stale aroma (or lack of). It's why sulfur aromas and diactyl aroma is for many hard to accept. Add true infection flavors - in yogurt or cheese or bread or beer, and there is a serious barrier to experimentation added. The antioxidants in many herbs and fruits are certainly part of their flavor value. fwiw, -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:27:40 -0400 From: "Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Size matters? Off the top, what size cooler do you need to work a 10 gallon batch of all-grain beer? I have an old rectangular Coleman cooler (the kind with the metal locking thing on it..) that I've used to do 5 gallon batches and it's always been adequate for that.. but it's been a while since I've brewed, and I can't rmember if it was half full, or just over or under half full.. so I'm wondering now if my 10 gallons is going to all fit in there. Before I strees out tryint to measure it.. does anyone happen to know? Mike Please note my new email address: meyre at sbcglobal.net Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:29:07 -0500 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: chiles and kegging Some Guy in Los Gatos writes: I don't think dried cayenne pepper will impart the type of chile flavor that one looks for in a well-made chile beer. Dried peppers don't taste the same as fresh ones, especially fresh roasted ones. The roasting brings out the sweetness and other pleasant flavors. Me: Being a pig-ignorant wanker (thank you, Roddles) on the topic of chile beers, I didn't want to venture into this one too much, but that also struck me as not being a fair example of what chiles can contribute. I liken it to the effect when you try to use powdered grape tannins in wine to simulate the tannin extraction from the skins during fermentation. It just ain't the same, IMO. Guy: Some brewers dry-chile'd (one week was mentioned), while others first-wort chile'd. By varying the amount of dry-chile time, one has some control over the heat level. Me: Well, I won't be trying any of this until someone convinces Jeffrey Donovan (and it won't be me, I've annoyed him enough over the years) to add in a Scoville utilization feature (and it better include mash-chile-ing 'cause SomEboDy, somewhAr', soMetime is going to want to try doing it that way) and a Scoville degradation calculator for chiles in storage. Rick Duyck writes: Can I just leave everything hooked up and the gas on or is it necessary (or a better practise) to turn off the gas when not in use? Me: I figure there's less wear and tear if you set it and forget it (sure hope I don't have to pay royalties for using that line). Just make sure your system is gas leak free. Rick: Also is it necessary to unhook the liquid line after each session (maybe for cleaning) or is cleaning lines usually done between empty kegs when everything is unhooked anyway? Me: I leave my lines hooked up and clean them when I figure it is having an effect on taste. So far, I haven't had to clean my lines except when I change out a keg, which for me can be several months apart. Maybe that's a comment on how often it needs to be done, maybe that's just a comment on how bad my beers are at their best. As with all things advisory, YMMV! Of course, if you put chiles in your beer, your line might disintegrate before you fill your glass, anyway. ;-) Cheers Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:54:41 -0500 From: Augie Altenbaumer <augie at bwoodtx.com> Subject: Ft. Worth Water Hello all...I was wondering if anybody out there has or has seen a chemical analysis of the water from Ft. Worth? I live in central Texas and am not really pleased with my brewing efforts using the local water (hardness ~180, alkalinity ~110). I think I have convinced myself that this could be the source of the characteristic "flavor" (harsh-bitter) in all of my beers. The reason I ask about Ft. Worth water is that I can buy it from my firendly neighborhood Wal-Mart, so it would be a simple switch to make. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks! Augie Altenbaumer Brownwood, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:36:47 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: brewing enzymes link/ serious pepper comment Marc Sedam notes ... > For those of you having any level of interest in the enzymes of brewing, > the link Dennis provided yesterday is fantastic. > > http://www.fst.rdg.ac.uk/courses/fs916/lect12/lect12.htm This an excellent site, but I'll warn you that the descriptions behind the activity vs temp curves is missing, and this allows one of the most pernicious HB misunderstandings about enzymes to persist. Optima for enzyme activity *must* specify the time period to have any meaning - and usually this is left out. Activity of some mix of enzymes and a substrate is measured by allowing the mix to catalyse for *SOME FIXED PERIOD OF TIME*. For example we might mix together alpha-amylase and starch for a period of 30 minutes, and then measure the amount of hydrolyis. We could repeat this test for different temperatures and then create a curve of activity vs temp. Here is the misunderstanding: If we change the time period from 30 minutes to 15 minutes, then the optimal temp will increase ! The optima is a balance between greater activity and greater denaturation with increasing temp. As the time period decreases we can afford a greater denaturation rate to achieve the optima. The optimal temp is dependent on the time-period (e.g mash rest time). Modern practical enzymology lit does not use this 'temperature optima' description very much, whereas it was common 30+ years ago. The site states ..."Experimental curves defining the optimum temperature[....] are usually determined over a short time scale". This is true when determining the activity constant (v0), but the activity-temp curve is usually determined over quite long time periods. See 'Enzyme Technology' by C.Bucke for a nice description. The web-author's comments, "A very important point is that the optima for activity and stability are usually different - ... ". Can only have meaning wrt pH-stability and activity of *some* enzymes. Most, not all have a pH stability optima and temp stability is usually monotonically decreasing with temps, no optima. === > Oh, and Steve...did you consider that the pepper liquid you added to > those beers could have mucked with the pH [...] ? I just checked the pH of my cayenne+beer extract and it's marginally higher (about 0.12) than the beer media and the additions were only 0-2%. A few pepper points ..... After sensible comments from some advocates I am going to try a jalapeno extract with little 'heat', per Larry Bristol method. I must say that I find most of the posts in reply to mine puzzling, misinformed, some with silly reasoning. When a fellow from a research institute posted that my argument was incoherent because it offended people - that took the cake. I guess he must think Copernicus and Darwin and Dr.Kevorkian incoherent for the same reason ! My pepper posts have included disclaimers like: ]]It's just my opinion. If we don't agree - that's not bad. ]]==== * NB 99.4% opinion follows* == and ]]YMMV How can ANYONE read this and conclude that I'm being dogmatic ? / that I am preventing people from brewing as they wish ? / that I am against experimentation ? I am probably HBDs most ardent supporter of experimentation and the past 8yrs of archives stand in proof. Experimentation, as I've often posted, is the only way to learn, *BUT* you MUST judge the results and draw conclusions - else it has no value. What I posted was MY OPINION as to why pepper flavor doesn't work in beer. I never suggested there weren't other opinions. /that I have called people names ? I have ridiculed the more ridiculous arguments in this thread, but not the people. If you take personal offense when someone opines that a flavor combination is simplistically unbalanced then your skin is far too thin. Many vehement responders read only half of the content then react from their intolerance to differing opinions. Here's an egregious example of misreading: R>He also asked in a previous post why anyone would want to brew a high R>alcohol beer. Why not? My original post stated ... ]]I'm not a huge fan of hi-alc fermentation beers. Many are ]]plagued with offensive fusels, oddly strong esters and unfermented ]]excessively sweet sugars. There are exceptions, [...] ... ][...but...] eisbock [...] quite excellent - ... ] without the stressed fermentation flavors. I clearly have concerns with hi-alc FERMENTATION not hi-alc BEER. I clearly explain "Why not ?". The responder couldn't have READ the post he was commenting on ! 'Nuff said, I'll post on jalapeno extract in time, -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:59:01 -0700 From: "Dean" <dean at DeanAndAdie.net> Subject: Good beer in DC All, Going to be in Northern VA very near DC for a week. Looking for a place to get a good british beer like London Pride or Flowers. Or maybe a great pils. Also a fan of hefes, porters and barleywines. Any suggestions? Thanks, - --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs - -- Quality Web Hosting http://www.3llamas.com Take your time, take your chances - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul. -- Invictus -- -- William E Henley -- Return to table of contents
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