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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: AHA Pub Discounts (Steven S)
  effect of water on attenuation (Marc Sedam)
  AHA discount at Rock Bottom; Paulaner Brewery ("Steve B")
  Re:  AHA pub discount program ("")
  RE: Too Much Beer ("Jodie Davis")
  question from a new person -equipment & Brewery Name ("Reddy, Pat")
  Wheat Beer/ Low efficiency (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Old Fridge Insulation ("Renato Bugge")
  Possible Mash Pot at Target (mohrstrom)
  Marbles... (Michael)
  Possum Holler,soft water,Jungbuket, cider bubbles, 30 qt boiler , pressure cooing ("Dave Burley")
  Seattle Brewpubs/breweries ("Mike Sharp")
  RE: dark wheat malt and asbestos in fridges (Thomas Rohner)
  Flying Beer (Jonathan Royce)
  Thin Beers (Jonathan Royce)
  RE: Masterbuilt SS Fryer (Jonathan Royce)
  Parti-gyle, no sparge and mashtuns (Eric)
  Beer gut/belly? ("Mike Maag")
  Insulation? I used to make insulation (also eat, sleep and breathe) ("john w")
  A bit more about Seattle Brewpubs/breweries... ("Mike Sharp")
  Cleaning soldered pipe ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: AHA Pub Discounts (Phil Sides Jr)
  Saflager lager lager... (Grant Family)
  madness of the neo-namecalling big-endians. ("-S")
  re: Pressure cooking ("-S")
  A little late with a few responses ("greg man")


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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:39:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: AHA Pub Discounts


Yeah i've had the same problem. The AHA loves to pimp the fact that their
pub program is so great but I find its more trouble than its worth. I've
tried to use the pub program 3 times at 2 of the local Hops with no
success. No one seems to be aware of the program, including management.
Given the discount amount its not work wasting the whole evening worrying
about it. I emailed the person in charge of the pub program and never even
got a reply either so go figure. About all my AHA membership is worth is
the magazine.


Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian


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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 07:59:58 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: effect of water on attenuation

"Dave" <brewingisloving at hotmail.com> writes....

"On these last three batches, my attenuation, using a
known yeast, has gone from about 75 - 77% to an abysmal
64 - 66%.  My ingredients have stayed the same, my yeast
hasn't changed, and I have even been aerating more.  Can
the only inconstant source - the water - be causing
this?"
************************************

Absolutely.  But it's hard to be definitive unless you say more about 
your water.  If I could hazard a guess, the new water you're using could 
be mucking up the pH of the mash you're used to brewing with.  It's 
possible that due to an adjustment in pH (in either direction) that 
conversion would be slower, possibly giving you lower attenuation.  If 
you have the ability to check pH of your mash, give it a whirl.  Might 
be worth it.  I spent a lot of time working with the water when I moved 
to NC, to make sure there wasn't anything funky going on.   Checking 
everything for your first few batches with new water is really quite 
helpful.

Hope everyone stepped up their daily intake in honor of July 4 and the 
beginning of American Beer Month.  Ha ha.

Cheers!
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 08:02:30 -0400
From: "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>
Subject: AHA discount at Rock Bottom; Paulaner Brewery

I had a similar experience the last time I visited a Rock Bottom (the one in 
Arlington, VA).  I realized after I got home that my discount was only about 
10%.  At the time I did not want to make an issue out of it because I could 
not remember exactly what the discount was.  I would agree that the 
restaurant/brewery is a bit misleading with the discount.  Other places I 
have visited with with the card have not had a problem with taking the 
discount on the whole check.
And as side question... I am heading to Munich in August and am trying to 
find information on visiting the Paulaner Brewery.  I have tried the 
websites dot de and dot com, but no luck on finding solid information.  Any 
one know if the brewery gives tours or allows visitors?
S
Vienna, VA



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Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 07:27:15 -0500
From: "" <pedwards at iquest.net>
Subject: Re:  AHA pub discount program

Dave Larsen writes about his experience with a Rock Bottom 
and his use of the AHA Pub discount card.

RB sent me a VIP card for my AHA discount use.  The
accompanying info that came with the card I got from RB
explicitly said it was for 20 percent off for the cardholder
only, not for the entire party.

Here in Indiana that only applies to food, not beer, 
due to state law.

That said, my local RB gave my wife and I 20 percent off 
our entire food bill the last time we visited.  But then,
I'm a member of their mug club (no fee for that, BTW) 
as well.

Whether they meant to apply 20 percent to the entire food 
bill or not, I didn't argue with them.

 --Paul E.



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:36:35 -0400
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: Too Much Beer

When the homebrew starts piling up we throw a party! This weekend we had
three couples over for a fish fry and went through two Tap-a-Drafts and
a dozen or two bottles. (I also made margaritas. The original version
and the nouveau simple syrup kind. The latter were preferred by this
crowd.)

One of the guys who came to the party is a dedicated Lite drinker. I was
busy with the women and cooking most of the time and was surprised to
find later on that he was filling his glass from the draft--by choice!
He was amazed he liked it. One was a bitter and the other a nut brown
ale. In my year of brewing this is not the first swill drinker who has
found home brew enjoyable. See, there is hope!

And I just have to brew some more ;)

Jodie Davis
Canton, Georgia





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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:12:41 -0500 
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc>
Subject: question from a new person -equipment & Brewery Name

New person -equipment
	If you don't yet own a wort chiller you can build an immersion type
(or buy one on eBay) for under $30.

Brewery Name
	My HERMS system is almost operational and since my first passion is
fly fishing the brewery's name is fishing related.
I've dubbed my invention 'The Pocket Water Brewing Company'.  What's pocket
water?  Ask a fly fisherman.  :)

Pat Reddy
Controls Engineer
MAVERICK Technologies
pat.reddy at mavtech.cc
 



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 06:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wheat Beer/ Low efficiency

To all: 

I made a Dark American Wheat with some left over
cracked wheat berries (unmalted) and Had a remarkably
low efficiency.

4# Domestic 2-row pale
5# unmalted wheat (cracked)
1/2# Chocolate Malt
 .4 oz Perle (60 min)

I figured I should expect 1.044, but eeked out 1.035. 
I simply added the wheat to the mash (150*F for 90
min).  I usually get 70% eff.  I thought wheat had a
low gel. temp and didn't need to be boiled.  Am i
wrong?  I did an iodine test and it came up good. 
Sparge went well (didn't stick at all).  Even tasted
the grain afterwards and it didn't have the least bit
of sweetness!  

Any advice?

Michael
Columbia-MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 15:54:18 +0200
From: "Renato Bugge" <renato.bugge at fysel.ntnu.no>
Subject: RE: Old Fridge Insulation

I don't think your fridge is filled with Asbestos as it is usually only used
as fire-proof insulation. My guess is glass or stone wool which is cheaper.
Wear a 3M dust mask along with goggles for eye protection in case it is
dusty (glass/stone dust is harmful). Be also cautios to not drill through the
coolant lines, especially if the fridge contains ammonia (old fridges
sometimes
do) which is a very harmful gas.

Hope this helps,
Renato


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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 10:33:50 -0400
From: mohrstrom at core.com
Subject: Possible Mash Pot at Target

No implied endorsement here, but I saw what looked to be an 
"enamelled" pot with a plated spigot already installed in the side.  Looked 
to be ~12 quart capacity.  

Target had them half-off for $10, and available in a variety of festive 
colors.  They are in with the "iScream" summer seasonal wares.

Good Luck, and please post if it works for anyone ...


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 13:39:30 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Marbles...

Robert Marshall wrote:

>Another rather bizare option, taken from home winemaking, would be to
>use a whole bunch of sterilized glass marbles. Just fill the carboy ever
>so gently with the sterilized marbles and them rack the beer into the
>bottle. Its a pain in the butt and runs the risk of glass chipping in
>the carboy when the marbles hit the bottom, but it is an option. Not
>knowing how much marbles cost, it might be just as cost effective to
>buy the smaller carboy :-)

Marbles work fine, although I haven't used them for beer. Chipping has
not yet been a problem, although I had some problems with the marbles
chipping when I was boiling them before use (well, I cooled them a bit
quickly).

I would recommend using flat marbles (available in the States at Wal-Mart
in the crafts section as "Floral Gems"), since they don't roll around. I
would also recommend minimizing their use, as a gallon's worth of
marbles is going to be a real pain to add (and just forget about adding
three gallons of beer to a five-gallon carboy :). An inch or two in a
five-gallon or a three-gallon carboy is not a problem, though.

Finally, they will splash when you added, which probably doesn't help
(especially if you're adding a lot of marbles--it's less of a problem
the fewer marbles you have to add). Here's where it would be nice to
add a layer of carbon dioxide on top of the beer before adding the
marbles.

In general, I would try to fill each carboy as much as possible. With
smaller batches, this means using smaller carboys and/or other jugs.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:56:10 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Possum Holler,soft water,Jungbuket, cider bubbles, 30 qt boiler , pressure cooing

Brewsters:

Sorry for the long post, just catching up after a long holiday/family
reuinion.
- -----------

Rich Schmittdiel calls his brewery Possum Holler Brewery.

I grew up in Possum Holler in SE Ohio - really!. Brian's comments about his
Dominon Day Celebration in a small Canadian town sounded an awful lot like a
4th of July in Possum Holler except we didn't have legal fireworks and were
restricted to sparklers. That is until they made them illegal. 'Course there
were some illegal Chinese firecrackers ( unroll the duds and read the paper
there)  which we had to keep quiet and rockets which we had to keep out of
sight.

- ---------------
AlK's and AJ's comments about making beer from soft water reminds me that for
some years ( decades?) I have been talking and writing ( here and elsewhere)
about how good lager beers are made from RO water. Virtually mineral free
water. They are superior to any made from treated or mineralized water.

Guess they knew what they were doing at Pilzen.  No question lagers from soft
water are far superior, but also many of the other styles benefit.The mineral
myth seems to have started in Britain, perhaps as a marketing thing.

For those protestors, don't forget the brewing liquor doesn't have the same
analysis as the local water - a point too often forgotten by hobby book
writers and even professionals.  And the brewing liquor doesn't have the same
analysis as the beer.

What is most important to taste is the beer mineral analysis. Brewery liquor
does affect taste secondarily as it affects esp Ca and Mg and the concomitant
enzymes reactivities and hop extraction is affected wort composition, both
mineral and sugar content.  I'd like to see a comparison of tastes versus beer
mineral analysis.

Try making any beer made from mineral free water, forget all this mash pH
adjustment and such and you will be pleasantly surprised.
- ----------------
Discussion of  the digital nature of Jung bukey ( young bouquet, green
smell/taste) of beer is interesting.  I agree beer has a day-to-day ( rather
than year to year - like wine) improvement in flavor and character. I suspect
it due to the somewhat digital nature of our sensory abilities in which lower
limits are set for any one of a number of reasons and when certain aromas (
diacetyl, etc) fall below that, we sense that it is "gone", while in fact its
disappearance or appearance is a continuous thing and we just don't know it is
still there.  On the other end our abilities to detect relative concentrations
above this limit is limited and at high concentrations we lose sensitivity
over time.
- --------------
Stu asks about cider bubbles after he brings it inside. Likely that was just
the release of dissolved carbon dioxide after you moved it inside to a warmer
temperature.

In the case of the wild yeast it may be that the yeast didn't finish at the
cooler temperatures. With the S. Bayanus you chose for your second
fermentation it likely finished in two weeks.

- -------------
Devon, a 30 qt ( 7.5 gallons) boiler will be fine if you make 5 gallons of
beer as as you will need 7 gallons and head space for all grain.  But this is
awfully heavy ( about 60 lbs filled) , can damage the stove due to its weight
and diameter and be dangerous to handle hot.

Why not go to K-Mart and buy the set of Martha Stewart SS pots and lids
ranging from something like 4 gallons, 3 gallons, etc.all in one box.  I think
it was marked $9.99.  Not heavy duty or anything at all but it will last you a
long time. I have a decades old set of similar quality kettles and they have
served me well. Multiple kettles make it a faster boil as you will use more
than one burner.

- ---------------
Travis, brown and fuzzy and fibrous sounds like mineral wool. A common
insulation in the US some decades ago.  I wouldn't worry about asbestos as
various minerals and fluxes were melted and spun into a fiber as a precursor
to fiberglass.  Fiberglass is a more refined version.
- ------------------
I agree with Chad that it is a good idea to boil the dukey ( time) out of your
 adjuncts but most pressure cooker manufactuers advise not to pressure cook
starches, beans, peas, etc for fear of plugging the pressure relief valve. I
concur with this as some years ago I spent some time scraping pressure cooked
peas off the ceiling  Even with my newer pressure cooker with three different
relief points the advice is still the same. You can be lucky some of the
time...

You can raise the boiling point ( temperature) due to sugars  and not have a
sticky mess by adding some ( a pound or so) crushed malt to the adjuncts as
you heat them up. This short boiler mash helps reduce burning and sticking. Eh
Voila! Porridge! Now where is that cream and brown sugar..err.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 10:18:42 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Seattle Brewpubs/breweries

Dominick and Eric both mention the Elysian...

Forgot about that one! Say, isn't Dick Cantwell the guy that was brewing at 
the Pike Brewery when Samuel Smiths bought out the Pike?  I was wondering 
where he ended up.  A lot of folks I talked to were ticked off that Samuel 
Smiths replaced him.  I think he's a pretty darn good brewer.

Mac and Jack's African Amber is my all-time favorite beer.  Even though it's 
quite a drive from my end of the Sound, I should go up there some time...Do 
either of you know if they have a taproom?  I thought it was a brewing-only 
operation.

Also, I was surprised to see Eric mention the Market Cellar Winery and 
homebrew shop...I thought that place closed down a long time ago, back when 
the Pike turned the space into a pool room or something.  Is it still in 
business?

Regards,
Mike (wanting a Mac N Jack's right NOW!) Sharp



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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:18:36 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: RE: dark wheat malt and asbestos in fridges

Hi Chris hi Travis

there is such a thing as "dark wheat malt". It's used to brew a
"Dunkelweizen" or dark wheat beer. I first drank one of these in 
Germany. I wasn't that much of a beer evaluator then, i just drank it.
After i started to brew, i pay more attention to what i drink.
In the hotel, where we stay when skiing, they sell a Erdinger dark
wheat. I really like it, although it may not be the best in its style.
I had a Schneider lately, which is not declared as a dark wheat.
It's darker then the regular stuff that you find, and besides being
very refreshing, it has a wonderful maltiness.
So i started to brew my own wheats with dark wheat malts as well.
If you just like to test it, start with half dark and half regular
wheat malt.(for the wheat in your malt bill)
By the way, we use only Weyermann malts. They are the easiest to get
for us, besides being fine malts. They have lots of specials like
smoked, caramelized and toasted to any extent.
try http://www.weyermann.de
these people are very helpful, if you ask them a question.


Asbestos in the fridge

It's possible that you have asbestos in your fridge.
But as long you don't whirl those fibers around too much you 
should be o.k.
The idea with the insulating foam sounds very good.
As long as this stuff is bound to something (water, foam) it does
no harm.(it doesn't get into your lungs)

Happy brewing on the other side of the pond/globe

Thomas in Switzerland



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Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 08:04:44 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Flying Beer 

A bit more data to add to the question about flying beer. (I didn't
see these mentioned yet, so I thought it prudent to comment.)

1) Minikegs fly well too. On a recent trip to Detroit, I carried a 
5 liter keg of Marzen on Northwest without any trouble. The baggage
screener got a little concerned when she saw my Philtap on the screen,
but once I took it out and explained what it was, there was no objection.
(Don't even try, BTW, to carry the CO2 cartridges as compressed gases
are strictly prohibited in any luggage. I had Listermann ship a few to
my friend in advance and then just carried the beer and tap with me.)

2) Some airlines have restrictions on volumes of beer. These are separate
from the TSA rules. For example, Northwest allows a maximum of 5 liters of 
alcoholic beverages per passenger. (Although beer does not fit into their 
description of "alcoholic beverages", which contain between 24-70% ABV, I
can imagine that an overzealous employee might still try to limit the volume
carried, so I personally wouldn't push it.) 

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 08:15:33 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Thin Beers

In several of the beers that I've entered in competitions, I've received
comments about the body being "thin", despite my efforts to maintain mash
temps of about >155F. 

I've thought a lot about why this occurs and recently I've come up with
this scenario: I do partial mashes and during the process the receiving kettle
sits on my kitchen floor. I understand that many people start heating
while sparging, but I can't do this without raising my mash tun up to the 
ceiling, so mine just sits and the hot wort tends to cool from mash temp 
to about 120F before I am done and the kettle gets moved up to the stove. My
theory is that this peroid of cooling (which probably lasts about 30 minutes)
allows the beta amylase to chew up some of the "body-making" dextrins that
the 155-160F mash produced, thus resulting in a thinner beer.

So what do people think about this theory? Is it reasonable? As far as I know,
if it is reasonable, then my two options include: 1) a mash out and 2) heating
the kettle while sparging. Since the 2 gallon cooler that I use can't hold
much more water, a mash-out is probably not feasible, but I may be able
to get creative with footstools and the like to get everything high enough that
the kettle is on the stove. Any other options that people can think of? 

Thanks in advance,

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 07:32:21 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: RE: Masterbuilt SS Fryer

Devon Miller asked about Masterbuilt's 30 qt SS turkey fryer. Here's the
manufacturer's site:
http://www.masterbuilt.com/store/sms30bv.html

Although I have not used it yet, I did recently purchase one of these
on Ebay for about $75, shipped. Seems to be a decently built unit. The
SS pot is a bit thinner than my old 20 qt pot from Linens'n'Things (see
my website), but I think that with the switch from electic to gas I'll
be able to avoid scorching.

I posted a similar question on r.c.b. before I purchased mine--two people
were using this setup and the only warning I got was that you have to be
very careful about boilovers as 30qts is a bit tight for a 6 gallon boil. 

FWIW, most Walmarts sell this unit for $96, so if you want to make this
an even better deal, it might be worth a trip to Wally-world.

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:30:51 -0400
From: Eric <edahlber at rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Parti-gyle, no sparge and mashtuns

Hello, I recently brewed what I hope will be the last extract/partial 
mash batch for a while. I am assembling the necessary equip to switch to 
all grain -yeah!
So, like most taking the plunge, I have a few questions.

I was wondering if there were any parti-gyle brewers out there that had 
recipes/tips to share? I know a little about the process, but could use 
some help with recipe formulation and logical style pairings.

I figure I might as well get several beers for the days efforts. I am 
leaning towards trying the 3 toe Barleywine and Full Moon Pale Ale found 
at Jeff Tonole's website. But was also wondering about darker beers like 
porters, stouts and browns since I tend to enjoy darker ales. If you 
have any good recipes or know of other sites to look for info, I'd 
really appreciate some feedback. I figure I'll only do 2 different beers 
for now because of limited equipment, but might try 3 in the future.

I am also interested in the "no sparge" technique, and have read a good 
article in BYO and also the article on Ken Schwartz's web page. Because 
of limited equipment this seems like a good technique for me, less worry 
about tannins etc. Are there any other sources that are a "must read" 
for someone like me? Is anybody doing a combination of parti gyle and no 
sparge technique? Is a 10 gallon Gott big enough for your efforts?

And on the subject of mashtuns -  I have a 10 gallon Gott. I was 
considering a zymico kewler kit and a bazooka T screen. Is there any 
reason you might not go that route? Is that all that I need in the 
mashtun?

Only 2 days till my crank and stein grainmill gets here :)
Eric D.
Rochester, NY



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:51:34 -0400
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Beer gut/belly?

The man with no excessively large tag asks:

"Also on the topic of too much beer, can I propose an adjunct to the survey on
how much beer we drink by asking "Has homebrewing given you a beer gut/belly?
And if not, why not (that is, do you work-out etc...)?"

I drink 5 to 6 homebrews (6-7%) daily on weekdays, and 10 to 12 on weekends.
My waist size is 32, and I can't even "pinch an inch".
Homebrew, and beer in general, is not "fattening".  It is the cheeseburgers,
pizza, and other high-fat foods.
3 years ago my waist was 36.  Then I got IBS and had to cut way down on fat.
No cheese, cream, fatty red meat, egg yolks, butter, etc.
I live on carbs and protein, and a little fat (mostly from salmon).  Lots of
grilled chicken breast, shrimp, fillet mignon (I don't deprive myself).  Rice,
potatoes, pasta...but no butter.  The good news is, I found a great butter
substitute "Smart Squeeze", tastes like butter but no fat.  Soy cheese, soy
milk on Crispix cereal...no fat.  (also some veggies like green beans, peas,
asparagus, etc.) and vitamins).
Exercise?  30 push-ups (at once) every day or two, outdoor activities
(flyfishing, bowhunting, mowing the lawn, Zen gardening).
Age: 54.
John Lennon was right, You are what you eat.  Eat fat, get fat.

Mike Maag, slimming in the Shenandoah Valley, VA.




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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:11:04 -0500
From: "john w" <j2saret at hotpop.com>
Subject: Insulation? I used to make insulation (also eat, sleep and breathe)

Travis fears for his health:

>>> is it possible it could be asbestos or would it be some other material?
It is brown and fuzzy and has little "hairs" in it.<<<


It sounds  to me like Balsem Wool a tree based product manufactured by Wood
Conversion (later Con Wed) in Cloquet.  My dad spent 30+ years there and I
spent 3 miserable summers making the stuff.  It went into car doors, attics
and pobably appliances.  The asbestos insulation manufactured there had more
of a grey color and a sheet like cardboardy texture, the fibers were shorter
and did not stick up above the sheets of insulation.
John
Duluth
"Labor is prior to, and independent of capital.
Capital is only the fruit of labour and could never have existed
if labor had not first existed.
Labor is the superior of capital and deserves
much the higher consideratiion."
A. Lincoln (1st marxist er Republican president)
"Labor is prior to, and independent of capital.
Capital is only the fruit of labour and could never have existed
if labor had not first existed.
Labor is the superior of capital and deserves
much the higher consideratiion."
A. Lincoln (1st marxist er Republican president)




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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:18:45 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: A bit more about Seattle Brewpubs/breweries...

>Theres a new one in the SODO district, that I can't remember the name of.  
>Met the brewer at a club
>meeting, and loved his beer.  Darn, the alzheimers is killing me...I don't
>remember which one of us has it.
>

Ah I remember the name now...it's the Pacific Crest Brewing Taproom...

It's on East Marginal Way S. in Tukwila...so it's a bit farther South than 
the SODO district.  But not much farther.  Just south of Boeing Field.

They have an adjoining Hole in the Wall Barbeque...pretty decent BBQ, if you 
ask me.  The only BOP in the area (NW Brewwerks, in Kirkland) has one too.  
But there's some fabulous BBQ around the Seattle area, so it's pretty tough 
competition.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:12:41 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Cleaning soldered pipe

I have to questions.  First is can I clean a copper wort return manifold
that has some lead-free soldered joints in Straight-A, PBW or even in
vinegar, the way I would a coiled wort chiller before use?  Second, I
used some compression fittings to connect copper pipe to bulkhead
fittings.  When I soak some of my brass pieces in the recommended
vinegar/peroxide mixture to remove surface lead, could copper be
included without any reaction between the metals or chemicals?  I
clamped down the compression sleeves before cleaning them.  It's
probably not a big deal to have a couple sleeves un-treated when I brew
but would feel better about the whole thing if I knew all the brass had
been treated.  Thanks for any input.

Parker Dutro
Portland, Oregon




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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 22:17:54 -0400
From: Phil Sides Jr <altoidman at altoidman.com>
Subject: Re: AHA Pub Discounts

From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
>We try to argue that here they go going to all this trouble in participating
>in the AHA Pub Discount program.  You think 20% is a good deal so you check
>it out, and afterwards you feel like you were tricked into going there.  It
>was misleading.  They may have gotten and extra $2.50 that day, but I'll
>likely never go there again.  In essence it had the opposite effect that
>they were trying to achieve.
>
>
>The sad part is that if the card had said 10% discount and they gave me 10%
>of the whole check, which would have come out to about the same actual
>amount, I would not have had an issue.  I would have thought that it was a
>pretty good deal.
>
>
>They guy definitely did not understand, and it was really not worth arguing
>about, so we finally left.  I have to admit, though, that it left a sour
>taste in my mouth.
>
>
>Has anybody else had any issues using their AHA Pub Discounts?


First a disclaimer... I am a member of the AHA Board if Advisors, but my 
comments below are my own opinions and experiences, not an official 
response from the AHA.

In the Washington, DC area we have two Rock Bottoms, Bethesda, MD (my 
local) and Arlington, VA.  There is also the District Chophouse in DC.  I 
do not recall using my card at the Chophouse yet, but I have at both the 
Rock Bottoms and actually do quite often at the Bethesda location.  My 
first Pub Discount experience was a Saturday evening with my wife right 
after a homebrew club meeting.  When I presented my card to the server with 
the check, the assistant general manager visited our table and introduced 
himself and gave me his business card.  He thanked us for patronizing his 
establishment and said I was the first one who had taken advantage of the 
program.  This was literally right at the time the PDP started.  Anyhow he 
stayed and chatted with us for about fifteen minutes and asked me about the 
AHA and about the process and equipment needed to brew beer at home.  I 
think he would have stayed even longer but he was called away to something 
needing his immediate attention.  Not only did we receive the full 20% 
discount on food and beer, he offered to buy us another round.  He also 
stated how he was looking forward to having homebrewers visit the 
restaurant and told me to present my card before ordering next time and 
they would hook me up with a mug club sized mug instead of a pint (an even 
bigger discount because you are still paying pint prices before the 
20%).  On subsequent visits, I did exactly that and they do indeed give me 
a mug 99% of the time.  Occasionally a beer does show up in a dinky pint 
glass ;-).  I have never had this kind of treatment at the Arlington Rock 
Bottom, but I have always been given my discount as expected and have at 
least as often as not been served a mug instead of a pint.  On one 
Arlington visit they did not apply the discount to the food, only the beer, 
but in fairness the server made several mistakes and I chalked that up to 
new staff which is not an excuse, but an explanation.

In November of 2002, I went to my local Rock Bottom in Bethesda on a Friday 
night with a party of  a dozen or so celebratory and thirsty friends.  We 
started in the bar for about 1.5 hours with beers, I think some wine, and 
mixed drinks (I only drank beer I swear).  Then we moved to a table and had 
a relaxed paced dinner including a table full of shared appetizers and of 
course, many more libations.  Now I don't remember exactly how much the 
bill was but I recall it was nearly $500 before the discount.  I collected 
cash from everyone and presented it to the server with my card and I about 
fell off my chair when they applied a 20% discount to the entire bill.  We 
gladly left the discount amount for a tip but that was a nice surprise and 
completely unexpected.  I have told many, many folks about it since and 
have convinced at least two people to join the AHA in part due to my story 
of this experience.

Now Dave's experience above was just plain bad and definitely reflects 
poorly on Rock Bottom; it is unfortunate.  I guess my point though is, 
don't let that experience represent all of Rock Bottom for you, let alone 
the entire Pub Discount Program.  I am sure that like any chain, some 
locations are better than others and in this case I know the management at 
my local Rock Bottom is directly responsible because I met one of them and 
he told me so.  I will never think twice about recommending them because of 
that and I am sure that was his goal that Saturday when he visited our 
table and introduced himself.

Realize too that the PDP is a national program and some of the 
participating pubs can't do exactly the same thing at every location due to 
the various jurisdiction's laws concerning the sale of alcohol.  I know 
this definitely affects the discount that Hops offers from location to 
location.  Also the participating pubs themselves determine what they want 
to offer as discounts; the AHA and/or AOB is not dictating that to them so 
some are going to be better than others.  I know neither of these applies 
in Dave's case, but I did want to point out those facts for everyone.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD


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Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:22:06 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Saflager lager lager...

g'day

I'm making a simple lager using a (dry) Saflager-23 yeast. Its recommended
temperature range is 48-59F which means lagering (say, at 45F) is "not
recommended". One book I read suggested leaving it at the fermentation
temperature for lagering, but are there any other options?

In terms of keeping it cool (even though it's winter here), I thought I could
put a sanitized frozen drink container in the brew. Would this impair the
yeast at all given that I wouldn't be able to stir the "coldness" around?
Does anyone have any other cooling techniques for lagering?

Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania (home of the best beer in Australia - which means the best
beer in the world...)



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:18:46 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: madness of the neo-namecalling big-endians.

It's 2+k off-topic - pgDn. now !

robin writes ...
>I would just like to ask -S ...

Then why post instead of  email ?

>[...]
>I most certainly did NOT
>describe the desire to retain the right to homebrew as neocon.

In  #4281Robin wrote of , "... endless long winded free market, neocon crud
arriving in the digest day after day recently?".   Apologies to Robin for an
honest mistake *IF* I misidentified this mysterious thread, but I don't
think I did.  The political threads all related to Hbrewing rights.  Which
is the non-rights, voluminous, free market neocon crud thread, Robin ?

Perhaps Robin misread my historical note about the late Sen.Moynihan as an
anti-democratic party screed - it's not.  Moynihan was one of the few recent
national politicians to place reasoned positions over rationalized ones.
When he decided ends were more important than means in taxing certain
unpopular liberties he opened a Pandora's box.   It has nothing to do with
his ideology.  Abridgements of rights under conservatives are equally
despicable.

>Mind you, anyone who can misdescribe a discussion about smoking in
>public places as 'smoking...away from others', I guess not seeing
>employees as people....

Robin is completely in the weeds here.   My sentence was a rhetorical
question about personal liberties having no party or ideology.  <<"How is
having a smoke(away from others), [or  ..., or ... ]  w/o gov't interference
[...] an ideological position ?">>.    That supporting liberties is NOT a
political position, was clearly my point - nothing else.   How could any
sane person  misread the context as 'public smoking' and also misread "away
from others" to mean "near to employees" - the opposite ?   The original
paragraph ranks at under a 12th grade reading difficulty level.  Shall I
dumb it down to 6th grade level next time to make it less difficult ?

>anyone who thinks that Bush's [...] police state --
>[..] equivalent to[...] Clinton [...] what
>was it i said about neocon crud?

Here AGAIN Robin uses the "neocon" label as an ad hominem argument when the
term doesn't even apply.  How is it a neoconservative POV to hold Bush at
fault along with others ?  Robin is just performing a name-calling exercise
rather than producing a thoughtful argument again.

I'll note that Robin is a recalcitrant Bigendian and leave it at that.
Robin - why don't we take this offline ?

 -S




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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:55:01 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Pressure cooking

I'm really please to see Chad Stevens posting such good info an a wide range
of tech topics.

> Incidently, amylopectin is where
>you get your beta-limit dextrin from.  If you're going for mouth feel, it's
>best to boil the dukie out of the adjuncts.

It's true, but I'm not so sure that the several percent amylopectin
extraction diff between various cereal extraction methods makes a big
difference to mouthfeel.   The other mouthfeel factor,  is that any raw
grain is a potentially heavy source of gums and glucans which are variably
extractable.  I would expect more of these unfermentable carbs are extracted
at higher temps.

>pressure cookin' is the way to go.
agreed.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:56:06 -0400
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: A little late with a few responses


We have finally sifted through some of the long debates about words. I was 
beginning to think the name of the HBD had been changed, though I must admit 
to reading some of the arguments. Glad to see we are all talking about beer 
again.

I'm a little late with a lot of posts so beer with 
me.............................

Name of brewery (need help with the spelling, any German's in the house?)  
Swine Hound brewing.
In German its not enough to call some one a pig or a dog. To insult you they 
use both. One of my best friends is and speaks German fluently. Anyway I 
though that would be a good name for my brewery.

OG of my last few beers..........1.058 German wheat
                                           1.070 Dubble
                                           1.052 wit

How much do you drink?......... Sometimes a beer after work, usually 2 or 
three on a Saturday night. Really depends, I may go a whole week without if 
I'm not in the mood.


  How to get rid of beer? Frankly I don't get this one. If your making 10 
gal or more batches and brew twice a month than ok I understand. But most of 
us only  brew one or two times a month. I think the majority also brew 5 gal 
batches correct? So why are you having trouble getting rid of beer? I can't 
make it fast enough for my friends and family, they love to drink it. Unless 
I get on a belgian kick which I've been on lately. Then perhaps its harder 
to persuade them that these are worthy drinks.

  If you have a few knowledgeable beer buddies then they will help you quaff 
the so called funky beers. Personally my beers get hoarded and stock piled. 
Some people have a wine cellar mines got beer in it. Then if someone comes 
over you can say "would you like something to drink?" ( with a smile on your 
face! )

  If you can't get through your beer perhaps the better question is, are 
they coming out that bad? You may need to do some reading and learn to make 
a better brew. No offence meant dude.



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