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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Keg Cleaning ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Keg cleaning (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Hoegaarden wit and extract brewing (Michael Hartsock)
  Dublin ("John O'Connell at Work")
  RE: wits and wheats (Brian Lundeen)
  Belgian Wit Recommendations (MOREY Dan)
  re: Scotland and Ireland ("-S")
  Alcohol in the diet Q:How much is safe ? ("-S")
  Munich yeast strains ("Hal Tanrahan")
  Amusing tale and fruit brix (Eric)
  Re: unmalted wheat (Jeffrey Renner)
  A CAP question... ("Troy A. Wilson")


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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:41:03 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Keg Cleaning

I don't have a specific routine for cleaning my kegs. It varies depending on
their condition when emptied (depending on what's been in them, grunge level,
time sitting, etc). In fact, if I've got something else ready to keg & a just
emptied keg, on occasion I've just given the keg a quick iodophor rinse &
refilled.

Like several of the posters; I usually use pbw, followed by iodophor or star
san (no rinse is a wondrous thing!), transferring from one keg to the next to
make sure dip tubes & poppets are cleaned. Only very occasionally will I
disassemble the entire keg & soak all parts in pbw.

A word of caution; if you do disassemble completely, all poppets are not
created equal. There are a number of different types. Be sure to keep all the
little dohickees with their original kegs. Otherwise leaks are likely. And for
the outsides of the kegs, a green scrungie & Bar Keepers Friend do wonders to
make 'em nice & shiny.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:58:23 -0400
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: Keg cleaning

The keg cleaning thread is very timely for me as I have just been jumping
back into brewing after a long hiatus and wanted to clean my kegs, some of
which have been sitting uncleaned for quite some time.

I decided to do as thorough a cleaning as I could, so I did something I've
never done before, and I haven't seen it mentioned in anyone's protocol yet:
I disassembled the quick connects (I use ball-locks).  These turn out to be
easy to take apart, and surprised me by having some nooks and crannies
inside that can accumulate grunge.  The only tricky thing is that one has to
be very careful in reassembly, it is easy to damage the tender o-ring inside
if it slips out of position.  I think it is important not to over tighten
it.

Does anyone take these apart?  If not, why not?  And, where is a good source
for these o-rings?
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy
Woodbridge, CT


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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:21:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hoegaarden wit and extract brewing

Hate to be a downer, but the nature of a wit (being
50% unmalted wheat) makes it impossible to recreate in
an extract beer.  

You might use wheat malt extract and some seville
orange peel and corriander, I don't know how much
different the flavor profile would be.

However, I was once told that if you want to simulate
the cloudy, "white" look of a wit, you can toss a few
tbsp of wheat flower in the boil with 15 or 20 minutes
left.  I don't know if it is a good idea or not.

Michael
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:28:33 -0400
From: "John O'Connell at Work" <oconn at mindspring.com>
Subject: Dublin

To all,

Any beer-lover needs to do the following in Dublin:

Visit the Porter House Brewing Company.  http://www.theporterhouse.com/

Basically an American-style brewpub, it features three styles of Stout, 
interesting takes on Continental and American beers, and very good food.  I 
would suggest a lunch there over dinner, if you want to get lots of talk 
from the servers and appreciate the beers.  Located at the far end of the 
Temple Bar area, it gets to be a bit of a jungle at night.  But a fun 
jungle anyway.  Lots of bottle beer selection as well.

Beer in Ireland is otherwise overrated (gasp!).  Budmilloors has gotten a 
stranglehold there, too, and it seems sometimes the 
Guinness/Murphy's/Beamish is kept around for the old folks and the tourists.

The small brewers (I visited Biddy Early and Kinsale) are like smaller 
micros in the US, but since Ireland's got the same population as metro 
Atlanta, that's not too surprising.

Oh, and part of the Wonka factory aspect of the Guinness tour is that the 
working brewery is part of a conglomerate operation, where the stout is a 
part of the lager, alcapop, ale and contract brewing business.  Too much 
potential for awkward questions and image-destroying reality out 
there.  But oh the smell!  Yum!

John O.
Atlanta, GA.



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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:41:41 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: wits and wheats 


Chuck Brandt wants an extract Wit:

Anyone have any thoughts on the best fermentation temp/yeast and/or spice
combination to recreate this classic in an extract + specialty grain mode?

Me: As one of the pros so succinctly put it in the latest Zymurgy, "You
can't get there from here". I do not believe extract brewers can make an
authentic tasting or looking Wit. This IS an all-grain beer. There I've said
it, let the mill dust settle where it may. And if anyone brings up having
won a competition with an extract Wit, I shall simply chalk it up to bad
judging. ;-)

Having said that, Wyeast 3944 or the White Labs equivalent, half an ounce
each of bitter orange peel and coriander, added in the last 5-10 minutes,
per 5 gallons. This will yield a subtle but noticeable spicing. I've tasted
homebrewed Wits with knock you on your ascii spicing levels and while they
are interesting for a few sips, I don't think I could drink a pint or two.
Of course, everyone's tastes are different and that's what makes this such a
great hobby, yada yada yada.

Dave Burley writes:

Well, all unmalted wheat or barley, independent of the source, is hard (
called "steely ends" for a reason by maltsters sometimes when certain
individual grains don't malt properly) and you don't mill it.  You must cook
it like you would any other unmalted adjunct. That's the secret. This bursts
the starch granules so that the enzymes in the mash can get to the starch.
You've probably been wasting most of the wheat you've been putting in as
milled unmalted and uncooked wheat.

Me: Yeah, they tell you (well, you know,.... "They", don't ask for names)
that you can toss the milled wheat into the mash and it will gelatinize at
mash temps, but I had dreadful efficiency on my first batch when I did this
and also got some judging comments that it was lacking in wheat flavour. I
suspect as you suggest that my wort was lacking in wheat contribution. Maybe
some people can make this work, but everybody's setup is different, and when
you get right down to it, isn't that what makes this such a great hobby,
yada yada yada?

This last time I did boil the wheat, although I did it bass-ackward to your
suggestion. I "squished" the wheat, then boiled it. Shoulda used more water
though, it glommed up on me pretty good, but I think it all worked out OK in
the end. Tasted good at racking, I expect I shall get it kegged up this
weekend. 

Cheers
Brian, yada-ing in Winnipeg, where we don't have any mosquitoes this year


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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:53:39 -0500
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Belgian Wit Recommendations

Chuck,

I presented a lecture on Belgian ales for club BABBLE.  The link below is to
the paper that accompanied the presentation:

http://hbd.org/babble/BelgianAle.htm

For an extract based recipe, I would recommend a 50/50 blend of light or
pale malt extract and wheat malt extract.  If you want to include oats or
rye, do a small mash with about a pound of pilsner malt.

For yeast, I prefer Wyeast 3944.  I don't have temperature control for my
fermentation.  Most my brewing is in the late fall, winter, and spring.
Keeping the carboys on the basement floor results in fermentation
temperatures in the low 60's.

I consider bitter orange peal and coriander essential.  Use about 1/3oz
bitter orange peal per 5 gallons.  Use about 3/4 oz coriander per five
gallons.  I have not used sweet orange peel.  See the paper for timing
recommendations.  If you want to use "special" spices, keep the quantities
low (usually less than 1/5 oz).

As for the hop tables, the percentages shown are IBU fractions.  Multiply
your final IBU target by the IBU fraction to get the IBU contribution of
each addition.  Use any IBU formula you like; however, Garetz formula does
not apply because the utilization factor is 0 for the entire aroma range
using his formula.  The following paper has an example of how to use the
bittering fractions:

http://hbd.org/babble/Hop_Usage.htm

Here is my wit recipe that took 2nd place in flight in local competition:

http://hbd.org/babble/Recipes/witbeer.htm

Hope the information is helpful.

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi




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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:55:14 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Scotland and Ireland

Glenn Ferrell writes ...

>We plan to spend most of our honeymoon in Scotland
>with four days in Dublin, Ireland.
>
>In Dublin, I want to take the Guinness tour, sample some of the fresh stuff
and
>check out a pub or two, [...]

Who says  romance is dead ?

Someone should explain the SWMBO/beer_bullets concept to Glenn before he
makes a strategic error.

 -S







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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:33:51 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Alcohol in the diet Q:How much is safe ?

Mike Maag has replied to my far too close scrutiny of his personal drinking
habits in a very open and civilized way.   I want to thank Mike for sharing
on this important topic.

> I don't recall calling it healthy.

I may have over-interpreted your intent Mike.  "Beer gut" topic seemed to be
about obesity/health rather than the cosmetic benefits of weight loss.

>I was simply trying to illustrate beer not
> being the cause of weight gain,

There is a more direct illustration of your point -  most alcoholics die
emaciated and malnourished despite vast alcohol calorie consumption.

In a normal metabolism, beer calories contribute to weight gain almost
exactly as much as any other calories.   Total calories are the issue - not
beer calories vs other calories.

>when a person's diet consists of high fat
> foods, and beer.  If weight loss is the goal, it makes more sense to me to
> reduce consumption of high fat foods, rather than reduce the beer
consumption.

I don't see the "makes more sense" part.    There is nothing special
or different about calories from fat or beer vs other foods.   I've recently
studied the metabolic process from the standpoint of energetics wrt carbos,
fiber, protein, fat, ethanol and glycerol.  There are a few points of modest
inefficiency on the intake side - but there are no gaping loopholes.  Food
intake calories are practically equal regardless of source ('cept fiber).

My point is that Mike's diet as described is clearly unhealthy.   The
comments about a very high alcohol low fat diet and losing inches of
waistline must be completely separated from any consideration of health.
Drinking 175gm of alc per day is 3X the level that the UK gov't states is
hazardous and above the 80-160gm of chronic intake that several medical
texts cite as causing organ damage.

Even if we ignore the alcohol damage we are faced with an obviously
non-nutritious diet.  Mike's diet derives ~1850Cal from beer - primarily
ethanol & carbs, with some B vitamins and a dash of protein.  We need ~75gm
of protein per day as a structural req - so assume you get this primarily
from lean meat and fish which will bring the calorie intake from beer & lean
meat to 2300Cal.   That's already above the average adult male calorie req
and there are scads of required vitamins and minerals missing.  One can't
possibly construct a nutritious diet with 70% of calories from beer.
Selecting between reducing consumption of fatty food calories vs beer
calories isn't much of a choice when basic nutritional requirements are not
yet met.

I will agree with Mike on the larger point - it's possible to lose weight by
reducing non-beer calories.  Reducing any calories from any source will do.
The caveat is that a sensible approach must consider overall nutrition and
not just calories.

> I appreciate your concern Steve.

It's sincere Mike.   Don't interpret my posts as condemnation of your
decision to drink so much.   You're obviously an intelligent guy capable of
evaluating the rising risk of organ damage and those consequences versus the
rewards of that 7th pint of 6.5%abv beer each average day.  I don't walk in
your shoes, and I'd never presume to tell you how to live.  I choose certain
risks that you probably wouldn't tolerate too.   You've been very  generous
to discuss this thorny topic at a personal level openly here.

====

May I suggest a different follow-on topic to "how much do you drink ?".

How much do *you* consider safe/reasonable as a daily average ?

To compare fairly ... .  In US measures a pint of beer contains abt 3.8 gram
of ethanol per 1% abv.  A pint of 5% abv beer has about 19 gm of ethanol.
(pints * abv% * 3.8 = ethanol grams).   In metric a liter  at  1%abv contains
abt 8gm of ethanol (liters * abv * 8 = ethanol grams).   A half liter of 5%
abv about 20 gm.

I expect my average is around 48gm/day.   I *think*  this average is
sensible for me (83kg, male) but I really don't know.  My variations far
above this avg (say >100gm) are no model of healthy drinking - but such
excesses are very infrequent.

Here are some other suggestions on amounts(as daily grams of EtOH)

Australia http://www.adf.org.au/drughit/facts/hdayal.html#stand

Female: <20gm LOW, 30-40gm HAZARDOUS, >40gm HARMFUL
Male:    <40gm LOW, 40-60gm HAZARDOUS, >60gm HARMFUL

In the US http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/faq/q-a.htm#question13
A mere 15gm for women and 30 gm for men is the upper "safe level"
threshold.

In the UK (unit ~= 8gm)
http://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/Information/Factsheets/Factsheet2.htm
http://www.csu.nisra.gov.uk/archive/Surveys/CHS/Results/10_Drinking/Level
_of_%20alcohol_consumption_by_sex_and_age_Trend.xls
http://www.nics.gov.uk/press/dfp/020703n-dfp.htm
the "sensible" level  is 24gm for men and 16 gm for women - daily average.
The "hazardous" level is 57gm for men, 40gm for women.    Also ..."The UK
Department of Health advises that there are no significant health risks at
levels of consumption of between 3 and 4 units [24-32gm] a day or less for
men, and for women between 2 and 3 units[16-24gm] a day or less.
Consistently drinking more than these levels per day is not advised, and is
linked with a progressive increase of risks to health".

It's hard for me to accept that 2.5pints of relatively tame beers a day is
"hazardous",  'unsafe', 'ill-advised', 'not sensible'.   I would also have
guessed that 3us.pints(1.4L) of 5%abv was high but OK, but the UK declares
this amount(57gm) as the trip point for hazardous drinking for men.  I
wonder about the factual basis for  these statements and levels.

So what are some other thoughts on the line between reasonable drinking vs
excess ?

 -S




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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:33:31 -0800
From: "Hal Tanrahan" <puffyfiche at fastmail.fm>
Subject: Munich yeast strains

Does anybody know if the yeast strains used by Spaten or Paulaner in
their helles beers have ever been identified.  More importantly are any
of these strains available from Wyeast or Whitelabs, or another homebrew
yeast supplier?
I know Whitelabs German Bock yeast is from Ayinger, but I have never seen
if the Spaten or Paulaner yeasts have ever been "captured."
- -- 
  Hal Tanrahan
  puffyfiche at fastmail.fm

- -- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                          unladen european swallow


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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:12:50 -0400
From: Eric <edahlber at rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Amusing tale and fruit brix


I just started a new job and thought I'd share an amusing conversation 
that took place today with some of my new co-workers. We were discussing 
hobbies so of course my homebrewing came up. Neither of the people had 
done homebrewing themselves, but both had friends who did.
Employee 1: "My friend makes beer with these genetically engineered hops 
that really increase the alcohol level. He just did a stout that was 
like 14.9% alcohol because of them."
Employee 2: "Yeah hops are great. My friend uses some really great 
tasting hops called Horse-bucker."
The conversation went on to include how employee 1's friend boiled, 
fermented and carbonated all in the same keg. But they did get one thing 
right. They agreed that homebrew tastes so much better than most of what 
you can get at the store!

Also in #4299 there was a question about converting pounds of berries to 
quarts etc. I also had a question concerning fruit, but mine deals with 
brix and priming. I have come across a sour cherry concentrate that I 
believe is 65 brix. It is meant to mix with x amount of water to make 
sour cherry juice. First of all, is brix a measure of sugars? And 
assuming that it is, could I convert it to numbers that I could use for 
priming things like a sour brown ale, or plambic?

Currently being yelled at for messing up the garbage disposal with a few 
unseen oak chips,
Eric Dahlberg
Rochester, NY



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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:27:21 -0700
From: Jeffrey Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: unmalted wheat

"Dave Burley" 
<Dave_Burley
 at charter.net> 
writes:

>Brian of 
Winnepeg asks 
how to use 
unmalted wheat 
as he is 
>having a hard 
( so to speak) 
time milling it. 
He suspects the 
>supplier.

>Well, all 
unmalted wheat 
or barley, 
independent of 
the source, is 
>hard 

This is not true.  
Soft wheat is 
not nearly as 
hard as hard 
wheat.  (Duh!)  
And I suspect 
that it might 
squish between 
rollers.  It 
certainly mills 
much more 
easily than hard 
in a Corona 
mill, and can 
easily be 
chewed.  Hard 
wheat feels like 
it will break 
your teeth. 

It may be that 
Brian's wheat 
is higher than it 
should be in 
moisture.  This 
can be checked 
by carefully 
weighing 100 
grams, then 
heating it at, 
say, 300 F, for 
some time, say 
ahlf an hour or 
more, until it no 
longer 
decreases in 
weight, then 
weighing it.  
This should 
give its 
moisture 
content, and a 
google search 
should turn up 
what an 
acceptable 
moisture level 
is.

I prefer 
brewing with 
soft wheat.  It is 
usually lower 
in protein and 
is easier to mill.

Greetings from 
California, 
where I am 
wrapping up a 
two week 
California trip 
at [1989, 243] 
Apparent 
Rennerian at 
our daughter 
and 
son-in-law's in 
Ventura.  
Earlier we were 
at Big Sur at 
my sister's 
(fantastic) and 
Lemoore, 
where it was at 
least nice to see 
our son and his 
wife.  Not 
much to be said 
about the 
central valley 
AFAIC.  We're 
meeting John 
Palmer 
tomorrow 
Friday) in LA 
for a beer after 
years of email 
but not 
meeting.

Cheers

Jeff



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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:41:00 -0500
From: "Troy A. Wilson" <troy at troyandjulia.com>
Subject: A CAP question...

My brewing buddy and I brewed a CAP a few weeks ago, a 10 gallon batch,
and split it up between us for fermenting and lagering. Neither of us
has racked it from the primary yet. In my portion, the fermentation just

What kind of aroma and taste should we be experiencing at this stage?
Neither of us has ever done a lager, let alone a CAP, Tom is
experiencing
an off flavour that he likens to a bandaid and I detect a flavour that
is different than what I am used to, but I don't detect and chemical or
medicinal flavour.

Any help is greatly appreciated. BTW, I am racking to a carboy to finish
lagering even as I type.

Troy A. Wilson
troy at troyandjulia.com
[254.2, 205.7] Apparent Rennerian - Seymour, IN

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