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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  microsof (bandrews)
  re: Top Twelve in US Homebrewing ("-S")
  Re: tops in homebrewing ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  King Cooker on Sale! ("Don Scholl")
  Top 12 in us homebrewing ("Jack Kephart")
  Top 12 Omission (rscotty)
  Re: Top ("mark_t at ix.netcom.com")
  Imperial and US gallons (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Fermenting large volumes   and  beertists and beertisans (stencil)
  Top Twelve (NO Spam)
  RE:  Moose Drool (Gunnar Emilsson)
  RE: fun scientists! (Brian Lundeen)
  Hop Schedules (MOREY Dan)
  scientific brewing is more fun (P=.05) ("Joseph Gerteis")
  mead problem (Leo Vitt)
  Typical lag time for a lager? (Michael)
  More Top 12 People ("John Palmer")
  Homebrewing article on Realbeer ("Steve Jones")
  Anchor Christmas Ale ("Holly Vandenberg")


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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:23:27 +0900
From: bandrews at erols.com
Subject: microsof

hey its me again.. did you see this site?

it's very special.only the banks know about it..

I hope your ready for lower mortgage repayments!

http://tops at buynow3sx.com/viewso65/index.asp?RefID=198478


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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 04:22:20 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Top Twelve in US Homebrewing

Louis Bonham asks an interesting question  ...

> Who are the twelve people who have had
>the greatest impact on the US homebrewing scene?

I can't dismiss any of Louis' choices, but I don't think the question has a
realistic answer either.

Picking a pantheon of HBing gods is quite like writing a history where we
try to pin all of contributions on a few key people and events, but ignore
the conditions.  We ignore that sometimes the process is almost inevitable
and 'someone' would fill the void.  We ignore that many supportive
individuals in the background have their contributions attributed to the
candidate god.  We ignore that some high impact contributions are not
properly appreciated as such.  There is a tendency to equate effort with
impact as well.

My list of 12 who have the greatest impact is less specific but .....

1/ That guy in Japan or Bolivia or Antarctica - well outside the HB
mainstream marketspace who decides he's going to brew if he has to make his
own malt and brew in a bucket.   Also the guys 'n gals who spend their time
putting together plumbing fittings and mucking about with cutoff saws and
welding gear to make their brewing hardware.   These folks inspire me to
overcome my challenges.

2/  The person who is just looking into extract brewing.   Taking a first
step despite near complete ignorance of the subject.  Leap of faith.

3/  The experienced Hbrewer (and esp many HB shops) who take the time to
help a less experienced brewer get a good footing or make an improvement.

4/  The beer judges who, despite the limitations of their senses and the
subtle sway of human  emotion try to give an honest sensory evaluation of a
beer.   It's a difficult and completely thankless job, but the results of a
critical tasting by others is invaluable.

5/  Those local HBers who always make beer so d*mned good that you feel
challenged to do better yourself.    Especially the ones who share their
methods openly.

6/  The many hundreds of folks who have taken on the job of organizing local
 clubs and club events despite the considerable difficulties and time
involved.

7/ The HB shop owners who make all the necessities and many extras available
to us in exchange for long hours and a modest and tenuous income.

8/  The half dozen companies who supply us with hundreds of clean useful
brewing yeast strains.    All other necessities can be purchased by an HB
shop from commercial brewing stock and repackaged in smaller quantity, but
yeast is different.   The Wyeast, Whitelabs, Lallemand, ... type companies
make high quality HBing practical.

9/ Those highly inventive HBers who see every obstacle as a challenge to
their ingenuity.   Rodney Morris and Conrad Keys fit in the category, but I
don't think they surpass Ken Swartz and C.D.Pritchard and many dozens more
I've known during the "HB Age of Invention" most of a decade back.

10/ Those who apply their intellects and curiosity to HBing.   Yes G.Fix,
but on this forum we have the likes A.J.deLange, Andy Walsh, A.Korzonas,
D.Burley, J.Palmer, A.Meeker, C.Scandrett, M.Sedam, Mort O'Sullivan, Doc
Pivo, D.Venezia ...many many others.   More important are those who
contribute good questions - not just on HBD but at clubs and even to
themselves.  No change occurs - for better or worse - till a question
arises.   Also in this category are those who observe and experiment - that
is perform honest (tho' usually casual) comparisons of their methods and
ingredients.    It's a difficult and time consuming thing - but the only way
to understand firsthand.

11/ All the folks who facilitate communication.   The AHA certainly, the
many authors and publishers, the event organizers like L.Bonham,   Zymurgy,
BYO and the defunct BT magazines.   The HBD is a special case [If you don't
believe it do a google search on any beer topic and see where you end up!]

12/  The professionals who take HBing seriously enough to help out.
Clayton Cone and the staff at Seibel come immediately  to mind, but many
know Paul Farnsworth, Mary Ann Gruber and other industry insiders as folks
interested enough to answer an HBers questions.  Many more involved in HB
magazine article reviews.  Also many Microbrewers always ready to share an
idea, recipe or a  pint of yeast w/ an HBer.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:09:23 -0400
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: Re: tops in homebrewing

I second the motion for Dave Miller.  When I started brewing in the early
90s the guys in my club regarded two books as essential for beginning
brewing.  The first was Charlie Papazian's "The Complete Joy of
Homebrewing".  Then, when you had some batches under your hat and were ready
to "get serious", Dave Miller's "The complete handbook of homebrewing" was
what you "stepped up to".  It wasn't as fun a read as TCJOH but Dave didn't
cut the crap - he basically said you had to brew all-grain to get good
results.  Although I've since learned that you CAN make great beer with
extract, back then for most of us Dave was right.

For HBD, Al Korzonas has to be on the list.

Finally, homebrewing is a grass-roots kind of thing.  So JUST for our region
of East Tennessee, I would also have to nominate Ron Downer, who founded our
homebrew club, had a great shop for a long time, and is now brewmaster at
Rocky River Brewery in Sevierville TN.  I believe he also took the very
first BJCP exam that was ever given. I bet others have "local heros" they
could point to as well.

Tom Karnowski
Knoxville TN




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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:34:06 -0400
From: "Don Scholl" <dws at engineeringdimensions.com>
Subject: King Cooker on Sale!

Hello all! I was wondering thru the local Wal-Mart Store yesterday and
noticed that the King Cooker Outdoor Cooking Kit was on sale for $25.00. I
was wondering if anyone has purchased this, and if so, how long does it take
to heat 5 gallons of wort? Are there any problems, suggestions? Does anyone
have any concerns of boiling wort with aluminum? Thanks in advance for your
help!

Don Scholl
Twin Lake, Michigan
(140.9, 302.4)Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:42:53 -0400
From: "Jack Kephart" <Sauce at neo.rr.com>
Subject: Top 12 in us homebrewing

I would like to add the founding father of the Masters Championship of
Amateur Brewing (MCAB) to the list....now if I could just remember his
name;-)

During the dark days of the perceived AHA evil empire, Louis helped create a
viable alternative with this national  competition and a hands on tech
conference put on by homebrewers for homebrewers.

This along with being a critical voice about the AHA and its practices
helped steer them on the member-driven course they are on today.    And as
things began to change he took the next step by further "putting his time
were his mouth is" and accepting a nomination to run and then being elected
to AHA board of advisers.

I know Louis wasn't fishing for a nomination to this list, but I cant
imagine it without him on it.

Jack Kephart



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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:52:52 +0000
From: rscotty at comcast.net
Subject: Top 12 Omission

We must not forget Jethro Gump ;->

Rich Scotty
The Crapshoot Brewery
Highlands Ranch, CO


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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:00:50 -0400
From: "mark_t at ix.netcom.com" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Top 


Interesting idea, Louis. I suspect this will be like the desert island
sixpack that turns into a case...... there are certainly many people that
have made huge contributions to the hobby.

I'll propose John Maier. John was a long time homebrewer, winner of many
awards including  AHA Homebrewer of the Year award, and became the brewer
at Rogue Brewery. As a penultimate hophead, he's brewed a line of over the
top beers that are truly world class. I also propose John as being
representative of the many homebrewers who have gone pro. These brewers
(including the HBD's own Rob Moline and George di Piro) have had a huge and
continuing influence on the direction of the craft beer industry. How many
homebrewers dream of going pro someday? 


- --------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:51:19 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Imperial and US gallons

I wrote:

>*imperial* gallon, which is 1.25 US gallon.

Spencer kindly pointed out that 1 imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallons, 
or 6 US = 5 Imperial.

Brain cramp.  TGIF

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:47:45 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Fermenting large volumes   and  beertists and beertisans

Christian Layke seeks larger fermenters.  I can endorse the Vittles Vault.  I
use the two-bushel size once marketed as Grain Vault, that was available for a
song after the Y2K nonevent.  The manufacurer's site is
http://www.gammaplastics.com/pages/GPplist.html
and you can get 'em just about anywhere Stateside.
They use the gasketed Gamma Seal closure that gives ample access for cleaning
and the square shape leaves a generous shoulder, ideal for locating a top-pour
spigot - just tip it over to rack to keg or bottling bucket, leaving the yeast
behind.  They have a 14X14 footprint and the top of the line is 28-in tall ;
probably too heavy to lift.

- ------

Jerry Zeidler and Brian Portolese argue the virtues of scientific versus
artistic brewers, and overlook the pleasures of brewing as an exercise in
engineering - the quest for easier, cheaper, more plentiful, and better
tasting beer through the use of elegant shiny things that disassemble for
cleaning. Pasteur and Gambrinus meet John Moses Browning.


stencil sends


 ...from the very low and very left corner of the People's Commonwealth of
Taxachusetts.


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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:24:16 -0400
From: NO Spam <nospam at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Top Twelve


Michael Jackson - not just homebrewing, but also for
beer writing and beer knowledge in general.  I have at
least 4 of his books on my shelf.

Bill






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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gunnar Emilsson <cdmfed_emilsson at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Moose Drool

Rumors of this beer's demise are premature.  Yesterday
I floated the Blackfoot River, and on the way home
stopped off at Trixi's Saloon in Ovando, Montana. 
There I enjoyed two pints of Moose Drool along with a
big juicy T-bone.  I have been drinking this stuff for
years, and can report no flavor difference even if it
is being contract brewed now.

Gunnar Emilsson
Helena, MT



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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:14:57 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: fun scientists!

> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:38:26 -0400
> From: "Jerry Zeidler" <gjzeidler at suscom.net>
> Subject: Artists vs. scientists
> 
> Brenden Portolese says "scientific" brewers are no fun...
> 
> Hogwash! You've no right to make such proclamations until 
> we've had a few pints together. I'm sure you'd find me much 
> more fun than 95% of the population at large, despite my 
> tendency for enjoying the repeatability of brewing certain 
> recipes I've developed and found very enjoyable.
> 
> Resenting the closed-mindedness while having enormous amounts of fun,
> 

And I resent you speaking for me, you clearly-faux scientist! Perhaps you
are the proverbial exception that proves the rule, but I can assure you that
we are not fun people at all. Anyone that knows me can confirm that I am
probably the least fun person they have ever met. An exciting evening for me
is sitting around staring up at the ceiling with a glass of my dreadful
homebrew, and pondering what went wrong. And I'm only a partially-scientific
brewer, because I am entirely-lazy. Full scientific brewing requires effort.
Art requires no effort at all. A glance around any gallery of modern art
will convince you of that.

As further proof, I offer you Mr Michael Hetzel...

> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Hetzel <>
> Subject: Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass
> 
> Just catching up.. on the subject of nucleation sites, there 
> was an article in Scientific American (Jan 2003) that 
> presented a study in carbonation in champagne and beer (The 
> Science of Bubbly). 
> This article was an excellent read, and covers in good detail 
> the whole life of the bubble (creation, growth, ascent, and 
> collapse). 

Mr Hetzel is clearly a scientific brewer. Not only does he read Scientific
American, he actually seems to enjoy it. Being a partial-scientist, I have
of course attempted to wade through one of these insomnia treatments, and
found it just left me with my teeth aching. Great Scott, man, they're
BUBBLES, get over it.

No, Mr Zeidler, we are not fun at all. If you'll recall my earlier treatise
on how McDonald's Befe(tm) was flavour negative, so too are we fun-negative.
We can suck the life out of a room in a nano-second (for you artsy types,
that's really fast). If I went to a National Homebrew Conference, all the
beer would go flat. I suspect if Mr Hetzel attended, the beer would also
become infected. And if the Messiah of Scientific Brewing, Steve Alexander,
was there, he could explain with references exactly how and why the beer
went flat and infected to any and all too weak from the boredom of our
presence to crawl to a place of safety.

Do not try and tar us with your happy brush, Mr Zeidler. I see your Hogwash
and raise you a Snort and Piffle!

Cheers
Brian, brewing with angst in Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:29:58 -0500 
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Hop Schedules

I presented a lecture on hop schedules for club BABBLE.  Below is a link to
the paper that accompanied the presentation.  The guidelines are based upon
gold medal winning recipes at NHC and recipes found the "Classic Beer
Series."  Vienna/Oktoberfest/Marzen is included in the paper.  The
guidelines are given in terms of bittering fractions.  The paper gives
example how to use the fractions.  Hope you find the information useful.

http://hbd.org/babble/Hop_Usage.htm

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi



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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:20:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540 at elvis.com>
Subject: scientific brewing is more fun (P=.05)


Jerry Zeidler says you shouldn't disparage "scientific
brewers":

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:38:26 -0400
"Hogwash! You've no right to make such proclamations
until we've had a few pints together. I'm sure you'd
find me much more fun than 95% of the population at
large..."

In fact, a regression analysis shows that each
additional hour spent with Jerry results in a .148
increase in the self-reported fun index, holding
constant age, brewing experience, and level of
inebriation.  This result is significant at the .05
level.   

Sorry, couldn't resist! ;^) 

Joe Gerteis
Failing both science and art 
in Minneapolis MN

- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free  at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com



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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: mead problem


I read the response instead of the original posting.
Denis Bekaert appears to be the original poster:


>I used 13 pounds of mixed honey (clover, mesquite
>etc), 1 ounce of yeast nutrient, 1 Tablespoon acid
>blend, 1 Teaspoon gypsum and added a starter made with
>honey and boiled water to which I pitched 2 packets of
>Red Star champagne yeast. Volume is 5 gallons. Initial
>specific gravity was 1.076.

>Fermentation was always slow and stopped about 4 days
>ago. When I checked the specific gravity, it was
>1.042, so I pitched another two packets of yeast,
>along with another tablespoon of yeast nutrient.
>Still no activity that I can see.

1) 13 lbs of honey mixed with enough water to get 5 gal of must at the
OG of 1.076.  That sounds like a low gravity for the amount of honey
in 5 gals.  I would expect a OG in the 1.090 - 1.100 range with that
much honey.  I assume 5 gal AFTER mixing not 5 gal of water added to 13
lbs of honey.  12 lbs of honey is about 1 gal.

2) Acid blend - I have put it in at the start.  Then I heard a talk at
the 1999 AHA conference by Jackie Rager and Dan Davies.  One of them
thought acid blend could put the PH  into a range where yeast can have
a hard time fermenting.  The rocommendation they made was add it AFTER
primary fermentation.  Since hearing that talk, I have followed this
rocommendation.

3) Champaign yeast will ferment, if it is healthy.  Dry yeast is
usually healthy.  With the low gravity you have and champaign yeast,
you mead will be very dry - FG <0.999, probably 0.990.

4) You used yeast nutrient but not yeast energizer.  I get better mead
fermentations with both.  One time I forgot the energizer and nothing
was happening for 3 days.  I added the energizer and it took off.



=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:40:26 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Typical lag time for a lager?

I finally broke down and tried a lager. I think of it as a Dark Pilsener,
at least in part because I realized I'd measured out four ounces of
CaraMunich instead of CaraPils only after I had mixed it in with the
pilsener malt.

(The other factor may have been the overnight mashing. I did a
single-decoction mash, sparged, and heated the wort just up to boiling.
Then I cover it and let it set until I'm ready to continue the next day.
Since I've essentially pasteurized the wort, my reasoning is that any
microorganism that gets a foothold in won't have the time to leave any
byproducts detectable by the human taste buds. 

This has worked fine for ales so far. Of course, I'm now heating the
wort up to boiling twice. This may result in more carmelization, and I
can't rule out the possibility of other off flavors. I'll let you know
if it works out.)

So what is the typical lag time for a lager? I pitched the starter
(kept between 50 and 55 degrees) when the wort was about 65 degrees,
but cooling in the freezer.

Thanks,

Michael


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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:58:44 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: More Top 12 People

Excellent idea, Louis!
I agree with all of the names mentioned so far, Papazian, Miller, Fix, etc,
and would like to add a few more. I am a process engineering type person, so
I tend to look at the people who streamlined the process. Kind of the Eli
Whitney types.
Dave Logsdon of Wyeast Labs. -- Specific beer yeast. Wow, what a concept!
Stephen Mallory --  Brewing Techniques moved the hobby to a whole new level.
Dan Listernann --  The first guy to start making gadgets for the rest of us.
Jack Schmidling -- The Maltmill and the Easymasher
Jim Liddel -- Advocate for Lambic brewing in the US.
AJ Delange -- The first guy to define and explain the challenges of brewing
water adjustment for homebrewing.
Jeff Donovan -- Promash -- He took the ball and really ran with it.
Louis Bonham -- microbiology techniques for the rest of us and MCAB

And frankly there are a lot of pioneers that rank equally with those above.
Martin Lodahl for beer styles, Glenn Tinseth for hops, Mark Garetz for hops,
Greg Noonan for Lager brewing, Jim Busch for all-grain homebrewing
techniques, Dion Hollenbeck for RIMs, Tracy Aguila for yeast, Rob Moline for
barleywines and yeast, Clayton Cone (Lallemand-retired), Al Korzonas and
Dave Burley for Point/Counterpoint, Spencer Thomas for his Beer Page, and a
lot more people besides. Of course, the biggest contribution goes to Al Gore
for inventing the internet to begin with. ;-)

Good Brewing,
John



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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:02:28 -0400
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Homebrewing article on Realbeer

Here is a link to a great article on homebrewing

http://www.realbeer.com/edu/abm/homebrewers.php

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN





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Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:06:08 +0000
From: "Holly Vandenberg" <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>
Subject: Anchor Christmas Ale

Having just discovered Anchor's 2002 Christmas Ale (Nicely tucked away in a 
fridge at a local gourmet store), my husband has fallen in love with it and 
would like to recreate it.  From the reviews on beeradvocate.com I'm 
gathering it has since mellowed.  Is there anybody out there who tasted it 
and can give us some pointers on how to get in the ballpark?  I'm thinking 
spruce, cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger, cloves, maybe lactose.  We currently lack 
the room to mash, so probably light or amber extract and some roasted barley 
and chocolate malt?  Caramel malt?  What type of yeast?

On another note, we have a 22 month old daughter.  I make it a point to keep 
her out from underfoot enough for John to brew about 2X a month.  It keeps 
him happy.  *g*  He just wishes I'd develop a taste for beer.  My selections 
from his collection are VERY limited.   Though I do bank his yeasts for him. 
  A BS in Microbiology finally finds a use in life.

Holly



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---