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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - Conical Fermenters & Harvesting Yeast ("Bob Fawbush")
  Hot? (Thomas Rohner)
  Dr Cone 2003  freezing yeast (Gryphonbrewing)
  Rock, basements, and trees (Michael Hartsock)
  Dr. Cone 2003. Yeast flavors ("Steve B")
  Dr. Cone, 2003 ("Sven Pfitt")
  Dr. Cone, 2003 ("Mike Zapolski")
  RE: Hot ("Dewalt, Scott")
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - pitching mixed cultures (Jeff Renner)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - Freezing dried yeast (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Seattle Beer (Kevin Wagner)
  Yeast Stirring ("Jennifer/Nathan Hall")
  Brew Places (D.T.)" <dpeters3 at ford.com>
  Dr. Cone, 2003 (Denny Conn)
  Pink Residue--Eureka! (Richard Foote)
  aluminum soda kegs (Michael Hartsock)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 ("William Frazier")
  Potato Beer ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Two-gauge regulator progress report (Calvin Perilloux)
  Ben Franklin (Beaverplt)
  Intro and wit beer question (John Coppens)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 -- Foul Smell ("Janie Curry")
  RE: Where is Miss Manners when you need her? ("Ronald La Borde")
  Dr. Cone Responds to A.J. deLange ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - sugar utilization enzyme questions, and some more ("Fredrik")
  Dr. Cone Responds to John Palmer-Cidery Flavour ("Rob Moline")
  Mr. Manners ("Jeff & Ellen")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
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*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *    COMING  TO THE HBD!    * * * * * * * *
*          Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast          *
*      8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered       *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:51:26 -0400
From: "Bob Fawbush" <fulmeasure at beethoven.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - Conical Fermenters & Harvesting Yeast

Hi Dr. Cone, 

Recently many homebrewers have purchased or 
fabricated conical fermenters that employ 
60 deg sloped sides & a bottom dump port.   

My questions are as follows: 

1)Assuming normal yeast fermentation 
temperatures are employed - How many 
days of fermentation should occur before 
a brewer dumps yeast for reuse  ? 

2)Will the pressure that builds up on
the condensed yeast cake at the bottom 
of the conical fermenter over the fermentation 
cycle damage or harm future harvested yeast? 
If so how ? 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my 
questions. 

Cheers! 
Bob Fawbush 


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:40:46 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Hot?

Hi Jim, hi All
it's definitely hot. Even around here in Switzerland.
I have been to the U.S. about 10 times. I have never been there in
the summertime. I have been to Texas, New Mexico(skiing), Louisiana, 
California(skiing and more), Utah(skiing) and i even had a beer at 
the Orlando airport brewery.
I've been to the Death Valley(in february).
It's never been that f------ing hot there, like it's here now.
It's around 100 degs. for a loooong time now, and i'm waiting for
the snow. I haven't had such a long brew-free time for 4 years now.
I just dont like to fire up two 10 kilowatt burners when it's in the
100's outside.
But we still have some 400 bottles in the walk in cooler at the moment.
This makes life less miserable for me.

waiting for snow

Thomas



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:31:47 EDT
From: Gryphonbrewing at aol.com
Subject: Dr Cone 2003  freezing yeast

Hi Dr Cone Some advise on freezing yeast please
at the moment I store yeast on slants and re propergate
about every four to six months . I believe you can store 
frozen for twelve months using glycerine and some other
ingredients.Can I do this on slants In a home freezer.
Please advise on temps and techniques.

Neville
Perth
Western Australia


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Rock, basements, and trees

Texas doesn't have anything on rock... I'm from the
ozarks (south missouri for the uninitiated).  

Our limestone doesn't even wait a foot down.  And we
have basements (most people call them caves).

In all seriousness, many people have basements here,
it just requires a lot of blasting.  Come to think of
it, most things require blasting.

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:07:36 -0400
From: "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone 2003. Yeast flavors

If this is a naive quetion please forgive, but what is unique about the 
different strains of yeast that would allow them to create/impart different 
flavors?  Is it something with the biological make-up of a particular strain 
or some other native charachteristic to yeast metabolism?  As a follow-up 
can the yeast organism be sufficiently isolated to "breed" for particular 
flavor profiles?
Thanks
S



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:12:16 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003

I have read repeatedly that yeast will mutate after several reuses in the 
homebrew environment.

If the yeast mutate at this high of a rate, how do breweries maintain 
consistent yeast characteristics, and how are pure cultures maintained 
without mutations?

If yeast mutate at such a rapid rate, how are yeast characteristics 
maintained over the period of many years as we have seen.

It seems to me that the culprit is not mutation, but more likely 
contamination.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Steven Parfitt, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:23:11 -0400
From: "Mike Zapolski" <mzapx1 at eticomm.net>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003

First, I'd like to thank Dr. Cone for sharing his valuable time, experience,
and knowledge with the HBD organization.  My yeast related questions are as
follows:

1) Cold Pitching, Why does it seem to work?
In certain brewing forums there has been much discussion related to cold
pitching yeast into ale worts.  Basically, about a pint of yeast is
harvested from the primary of a brew batch and stored in a sealed container
at refrigerator temperatures (abt 45F).   At some later time (perhaps as
long
as 1-2 months), that yeast is pitched directly from the refrigerated
container into a new batch of sweet wort  at  70-75F.   Based on my
experience (and observations) this method works quite well, and appears to
reduce lag times (from 1.5 to 4 hours).   Can you help us understand why the
cold pitching process works?  Or have we just been lucky?

2) Mid-Fermentation Nutrient Additions - Are there any advantages, or
disadvantages, that may occur by adding yeast nutrients to a beer (or wine)
after fermentation has begun, but before the mid-point between the OG & TG?

3) What are the differences between yeast nutrients, extracts, hulls, and
energizers?   What does each product do to facilitate fermentation?   At
what stage of the brewing proces should they be added to be most effective?
Under what circumstances should one use each of these products [what should
the brewer look for as an indicator], and what might be a typical amount
added to a 5 gallon batch?  Is there a product that combines these
individual items into a single overall yeast "Superfood"?

4) For a given ale yeast type, does controlling ale fermentation temperature
in the 60-68F range have a noticeable affect on the resulting beer's
flavor?  If so, which ale yeast types are most sensitive to fermentation
temperature?

5) What factors (that the brewer might be able to control) influences yeast
attenuation?  For example, if an ale yeast has an optimum temperature range
of 68-73, will holding the primary temperature at 68F yield a better
attenuation, than at 73F?

Thank you,
Mike Zapolski, Sr.




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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:32:30 -0500
From: "Dewalt, Scott" <scott.dewalt at worksuite.com>
Subject: RE: Hot

Jim Bermingham writes, "It's too hot to brew so I will 
be buying until October." 

Jim, I enjoyed meeting you and your wife at Bristol's 
house and very much enjoyed drinking the CAP you brought.

Brew at night!  To get around the oppressive heat, we 
start at about 6PM, when the temperature drops below 100F, 
and finish by 11PM.  A quick rinse of all the equipment 
and the major cleanup waits until the morning.

Not only does this allow us to escape the glare of the 
sun, it also affords us an opportunity to see possums, 
bats, giant kid-sealing mosquitoes, and Mars.  Did you 
know Mars is as close to the Earth as it is going to 
get for another 60,000 years?  We've a mead that should 
be ready by then.

Scott
http://texanbrew.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:09:38 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - pitching mixed cultures

Dr Cone

According to beer writer Michael Jackson, the Belgian ale Duvel is 
fermented with two yeasts, both originally isolated by De Clerck from 
10-20 strains in McEwan's Scotch ale between the wars.  See 
http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000020.html.

Jackson writes "both [yeasts] are used in primary fermentation. The 
brew is divided into two separate batches, one for each yeast.  These 
two batches are not of equal sizes."  The separate batches are 
filtered and blended after secondary, and one of the strains 
reintroduced for bottling.

Why do you think this is done, rather than simply pitching them both 
into the same wort?

Assuming that there is no K (killer) factor involved (since they both 
coexisted in the original McEwan's), how do you think the results 
would differ if the yeasts were both pitched into one wort in the 
same proportion as the sizes of the two batches at Duvel?

I'd appreciate any further thoughts you might have regarding mixed 
cultures of yeasts in traditional and/or historic ales.

Thanks.

Jeff Renner
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:23:50 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - Freezing dried yeast

First of all, my thanks to you for taking part in this forum.

Awhile back, your always helpful Sigrid Gertsen-Briand mentioned to me that
preliminary trials at Lallemand had suggested that freezing dried yeast was
not good for the yeast in some way. Anecdotally, some homebrewers and
winemakers have mentioned that they have no problems using dry yeast that
has been stored in the freezer.

Could you please expand on this and let me know if any additional work has
been done on this topic?

Thanks
Brian


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:41:39 -0700
From: Kevin Wagner <kevin.wagner at watchmark.com>
Subject: Re: Seattle Beer

nlkanous asks about beer in seattle:

I'm in seattle! We've got quite a few brewpubs in the neighborhood of
the Westin. A taxi will get you to most of them for less that 5 bucks.

Pyramid Alehouse and Brewery, next to Safeco Field (1201 1st Avenue
South).
Pike Street Pub & Brewery, next to Pike Place Market (1415 1st Avenue).
About 1 block from the Westin, in Pacific Place, is Gordon Biersch. 

For good social drinkin', I like the Virginia Inn on 1st & Virginia.

And, of course, if you like a good crawl, there's three blocks of bars
along 1st Ave through Pioneer Square.

 -Kevin


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:54:45 -0400
From: "Jennifer/Nathan Hall" <hallzoo at comcast.net>
Subject: Yeast Stirring

Anyone out there utilize a laboratory magnetic stir plate to continuously stir
their starters while stepping-up? I've heard they increase cell counts, but
I'd like to know if this is true. Thinking about getting a stir-plate setup,
is it worth the expense??

Thanks!

Nate Hall
BBV Brewery



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:53:51 -0400
From: "Peters, David (D.T.)" <dpeters3 at ford.com>
Subject: Brew Places

I am headed to the west side of Michigan at the end of the week.
Specifically, we are headed to Grand Haven, Michigan.   I would like to
inquire if anyone is aware of any great Brew Pubs or other goings on in this
area I should check out while there.  Chose the location as a sort of half
way point in meeting others.  Other than that, we do not know much about the
area.  Not quite sure what there is to do or drink there and would
appreciate any suggestions.

David T. Peters
Northville, MI
		



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:55:29 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003

Dr. Cone,

First, thank you so much for giving us some of your time.

  My question concerns yeast growth as it relates to flavors in beer.  I 
have read several articles mentioning that yeast growth is important to flavor
  production in beer, and that the amount of yeast growth is related to the 
amount of yeast pitched.  My own completely unscientific experiments have 
lead  me to believe that I produce more "interesting' beers when I, for 
instance, repitch only part of the yeast slurry from a previous batch 
rather than the entire amount.  The conventional wisdom in the homebrew 
world seems to be to use the entire previous slurry to produce short lag 
times.  Is there a relationship between yeast growth and the flavors 
produced in beer?  Is it better to pitch an entire previous yeast slurry, 
or is there a benefit to using a large, but not entire, amount of 
slurry?  I apologize for the vagueness of the question, but I have no way 
to quantify the exact amounts I've been using.  It's simply either "all" or 
"part".

  Thank you again.

  	-------------------->Denny Conn



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:53:27 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Pink Residue--Eureka!

On the continuing pink resiue thread, Al K. posted:

>I've read that manganese in your water can give a pink residue.  Just
>another possibility.

Eureka!  I think he's on to something.  All the other hypotheses (bacteria,
wild yeast) aside, IMHO, this one may be accurate.  I have pink residue
that builds up in the bathroom shower enclosure, and I have high magnesium
water.  In an earlier HBD post, I sent out my water test results and "Mr.
Water" (A.J.) noted my high Mn.  Count this as a data point supporting high
Mn in the water.

>From My Post:

>pH	6.0

>Element	Sample PPM 	EPA Max. PPM

>Al		negligible	No Set Max.
>B		negligible	No Set Max.
>Cd		negligible	0.01
>Ca		4.3		No Set Max.
>Cr		negligible	0.05
>Cu		0.05		1.0	
>Fe		0.03		0.30
>Mg		1.6		No Set Max.
>Mn		0.10*		0.05
>Mb		0.06		No Set Max.
>Ni		0.01		No Set Max.
>P		negligible	No Set Max.
>K		1.8		No Set Max.
>Na		6.2		No Set Max.
>Zn		0.10		5.0

>Note that the Mn is over the EPA limit.  The report explains there is no
>health risk (which is good since I've been drinking it for 9 years) with
>Mn, only a bitter or metallic taste and brown stains in laundry and
>plumbing fixtures.  The report further explains that treatment is only
>required if these symtoms are causing a problem, which in my case don't
>seem to be a problem.

At least not at the time...

>From A.J.:

>WRT to the Mn - never seen it higher than Fe before but note that the
>limit here is the secondary limit i.e. the level above which the water
>may taste unpleasant, not the level at which harm will be done. Try
>aerating the water to oxidize the Mn to the point where it forms the
>brown sludge more readily. This aeration will also release CO2 which is
>responsible for the low pH not that this is important WRT the mash
>because the buffering capacity of this water is so small but the higher
>pH aids in the formation of the Mn sludge. Filter the aerated water.
>This may take care of the Mn without further treatment.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:17:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: aluminum soda kegs

In my eternal effort to scrimp and save money, I
called a local salvage yard to check on soda kegs. 
Fortunately for me, they had some - tons apparently. 
However, they are aluminum, according to the person
who answered the phone.  Has anyone heard of such a
thing, and can i use them?

michael
columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:31:20 -0500
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003

Dr. Cone - I've purchased a 500 gram quantity of BM-45 wine yeast.  This is
more than I will use for winemaking this season.  Can this yeast be stored
for future use?  If so, what would be the best conditions?  Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:12:50 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Potato Beer





This years harvest at the farm was really high. I was thinking of making a
pre-prohibition polish potato pilsner. Howmany ppg do you think ill get for
the potato's? any suggestions on mash schedule? Fix 40-50-70-80?

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer - Jackson Mi




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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:36:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Two-gauge regulator progress report

Final progress report on the operation of the 2-gauge regulator
when the tank runs low:

I'm sold on a 2-gauge regulator now, even more than before 
when I was arguing for it last week.  Seriously.  I hadn't
had one in use on a tank as large as 20# before now, at least 
not a CO2 tank that ran out of gas before I moved house and 
pawned it off.  (I'll tell SWMBO that I have proof now 
that we've stopped moving like nomads:  I actually used up 
a whole CO2 tank before moving to another country!
Does that earn beer bullets?)

As of Friday, it was reading around 20 atm on the gauge.
Yikes, eh?  Time for a refill?  Not yet, not with a 20# tank.  
So in the next two days, I purged several kegs and racked beer 
out of another.  Still hanging in with 10-15 atm, so I used 
some of the rest to top up the CO2 in the various standing kegs, 
and brought the tank today for refill, still with 10 atm pressure 
on the gauge.

Despite claims to the contrary, I found that I was able 
to push quite a lot of beer/liquid around, even when the 
gauge was already down to less than half normal pressure.
With that second gauge, I have a dead easy way to know 
that it's time for a refill, but also to know that I've got 
enough gas to serve PLENTY of beer before it finally runs 
out.  (And the second gauge costs no more than a bathroom 
scale and takes up less space.) 

>From a day or two ago on HBD, regarding CO2 tank safety:

> ...recommend using some chains to anchor your tanks to
> the wall.  Compressed gas tanks are (can be) very
> dangerous, especially the cheaper aluminum ones. 

Especially aluminum ones??  Why?  The worst ones are the
blasted steel monsters that can fall over and smash your
foot and whatever else they encounter on their way down,
not to mention the really big steel ones like the 35# monster 
that I also just lugged to the gas shop.  Not even a handle 
on it! Lou King, source of that beast, will no doubt be 
getting a thank you card from my chiropractor soon! 
(grin -- hi Lou, thanks!  Really!)  

Anyway, I'm glad they gave me a grubby aluminum tank in
exchange for my spit-and-polish steel one that looks real
nice but weighs half a ton, so to speak.  I'll take the
portability any day.  Or am I simply overlooking an aluminum 
tank safety issue?  Something like "aluminum tanks leach metal 
in to the gas and give us Alzheimers"!  Oh, best not start
a thread like THAT!

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ben Franklin

Regarding the quote of Ben Franklin. "Beer is proof
that God loves us and wants us to be happy." I was at
the "Great Taste" beer tasting in Madison, WI this
past weekend wearing my shirt with this quote on it.
I've worn this shirt each year for the past three to
this event. I always get several comments about how
much people like my shirt or question about where I
got it. This year for the first time I was asked if
the quote really came from BF. Having consumed several
samples at the time I boldly answered "Of course,
Isn't everything on Tshirts true? Later in the day I
was asked the same question twice more. Resolving to
look it up, I found this thread on HBD. 
It looks like the issue has been resolved. Poor
Richard's is a source for all kinds of good Franklin
quotes. It was part of a college lit class for me 25
yrs ago and probably the only thing I enjoyed at the
time.
Back to the "Great Taste". It was once again one the
best organized, most enjoyable event I've ever
attended, beer related or otherwise. Kudo's to the
Madison Brewing guild. I'll be back next year.

=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:28:50 -0300
From: John Coppens <john at jcoppens.com>
Subject: Intro and wit beer question

Hello people.

This is my first posting ever to the Digest, and I hope I don't violate
too many 'rules'... Name is John, I'm a belgian living in the
center Argentina. I've been brewing a few kits and wanted to get my feet
wet with a few more advanced experiments.

Home beer-brewing is, as far as I can determine, almost inexistent in
Argentina, and, as a result, getting the ingredients and hardware is a
complicated. The kits mentioned above were brought over from Belgium...

So - I have still a pack of malt extract, and it occured to me I could
combine this with wheat (grain) and produce some kind of wit beer. Can
anyone suggest a recipe? Is it absolutely necessary to use a special
yeast?

Cheers,
John


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:55:39 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 -- Foul Smell

Dr. Cone,
Over the past few years, I have practiced a crude form of yeast ranching.  
After stepping up a smack-pack (1/3 cup DME in one pint of water, boiled 
10-15 minutes) in preparation for brewing, I would innoculate a second flask 
and allow it to grow to krausen and then place it in the refrigerator for 
the next brewing session.  Sometimes, this brewing session would occur 
months later.  Essentially, the yeast was stored under refrigerated beer.  
Prior to brewing, I decant the supernatant and ptich the slurry into a 
starter. Sometimes it takes 2 steps before a good karusen.  I would repeat 
the process several times with the same culture, storing successuve cultures 
and growing them up as needed with no detectable adverse effects.

Recently after reading about the benefits of oxygenation/airation, I bought 
a stir plate, an aquarium pump, and an in line HEPA filter (used for IV 
infusions). Additionally, I began adding 1 TSP of a "yeast nutrient" which I 
interpret to be yeast hulls (yellow granular appearnce) to my cup of starter 
solution during the boil.  I then fed the sanitized air line from the 
aquarium pump through the HEPA filter and into the hole in the rubber 
stoppered flask and stirred the culture at a moderate rate using filtered 
room air for airation.

On two occasions, once after pitching yeast sediment from one of my 
refrigerator cultures and once after pitching one of the new pitchable yeast 
tubes, I noted a very foul smell, much like burning plastic wire insulation 
or burnt rubber.  The culture from the refrigerator made acceptable beer, no 
adverse tastes but a tremendous amount of yeast sediment (I believe it was a 
California ale yeast I used for a wheat beer so it was difficult to evaluate 
whether the haze was due to poor floculation from a wild yeast infection).  
The culture from the pitchable tube (kolsch) made two horrible batches, one 
alt and and one kolsch.  In all fairness, I have never attempted these 
styles before and now understand that this yeast needs to be cold 
conditioned despite being called an ale yeast.  Both batches just wouldn't 
clear and never developed a clean taste.

This weekend, I stepped up another pitchable yeast tube, a Bavarian Wheat 
for a hefeweizen.  I used only 1/4 TSP of the yellow yeast nutrient and 
added 1/4 TSP of "yeast energizer".  I stirred for 48 hours without using 
the aquarium pump.  Instead, I inserted the HEPPA filter directly into the 
stopper to filter incoming ambient room air.  I detected the same foul 
smell, but it was very faint.

Is this smell due to autolized yeast?  Is it due to one of the yeast 
nutrients?  How about an infection from the aquarium pump?  Am I stirring 
too long and exhausting the media and nutrients causing yeast autolosys?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Todd in Idaho
Formerly, Todd in Turkey



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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:31 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Where is Miss Manners when you need her?

>Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:14:23 -0400
>From: Lou King <lking at pobox.com>
>
>She thinks that for such a party, there might be some confusion and
the
>growlers might get put away similar to wine being presented as a
gift.
>Clearly, I want to leave the party with the growlers.  Another
thought
>was, maybe people will think I am turning my nose up at their beer.
>
>My question to those who are less socially challenged than myself is:
>when is it and is it not appropriate to bring homebrew to a party?

Well, I carry beer in bottles, growlers, or whatever. They stay in the
picnic cooler on ice.
I can see the possibility of misunderstanding if you present the beer
directly with some fanfare,
but by staying in the cooler, just pop open and share at the event.

As far as people not wanting homebrew at a party, has not happened to
me yet,
but it's their party after all, so tread carefully.
=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:17:43 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds to A.J. deLange

			Dr. Cone Responds to A.J. deLange

Folks, AJ,
     I have taken the liberty of sending Dr. Cone a recent question ...

From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Maximum Strength?
Recently a reader asked me to determine the alcohol content of a barley
wine of his (and a very fine one it was too) which his calculations
showed should have an ABV of about 23.8% using the Balling formula. The
OG was about 43P and TE came in at 9.58P (lower than his estimate) which
actually imples almost 26% again using the Balling formula. Remember
that the Balling formula is based on conservation of mass so the
question becomes "Where did all that sugar go?" (about 9P worth is
unaccounted for). Sugar either 1) stays in solution to contribute to
True Extract 2) gets converted into carbon dioxide 3) gets converted
into yeast biomass or 4) gets converted to alcohol. While puzzling over
this (and re-running the assay) I remembered that when I'd spilled 18%
ABV cyser on my hands the cooling effects of evaporating alcohol were
very evident. So I made up a solution of a little pure alcohol in water
and checked the concentration. It was 22.72%. I let the beaker sit for
20 minutes and then checked the strength again. It was down to 21%.
Thesis confirmed - alcohol leaves concentrated water solutions very
quickly. The brewer confirms that this beer spent weeks in carboys, was
racked etc. So I think his sugar got turned into alcohol and carried off
by the CO2 evolved and air currents during handling. This leads to a
couple of questions:

1) Has anyone else here had experiences which tend to confirm or deny my
suspicion?
2) Is there some sort of practical limitation caused by alcohol
evaporation as to how strong a beer (or wine) can be fermented given
that the yeast are not the limiting factor?
3) Are there any techniques (such as cold fermentation) which are
successful in preventing loss of alcohol from strong beers and wines?
4) Has anyone here brewed a beer with alcohol concentration above 20%
v/v without resorting to freezing, fortification etc.?
Cheers, A.J.



A. J. deLange,
Measurements of S.G., balling, density, gravity, Plato etc. in the presence
of alcohol, especially higher levels of alcohol(15 - 20+%) is very
deceiving.  The presence of the alcohol with its minus gravity gives a false
low Plato indicating a larger amount of sugar has been converted to alcohol
than actually has been converted.  This is a partial answer.  There may be
other factors.

Yeast cannot convert sugar to just CO2.  It produces CO2 plus cell mass or
CO2 plus alcohol.  With sugar over 0.2%, the yeast will produce alcohol (and
a very small amount of cell mass) no matter how much air you give it.

The alcohol does not usually evaporate as fast as you indicated. I work
routinely with wineries that ferment up to 20+% alcohol with no evaporation
problems during fermentation, processing, storage and aging.

Now, getting the fermentation up to 20+% alcohol can be a problem. It can be
done with in 12 days with the right strain and volume of yeast, proper
nutrient addition, aeration and special protocol for sugar addition.
Fermentation temperature maintained between 70 - 89F. There are many regular
strains of yeast that will ferment up to 20+% alcohol.  The secret is TLC
(tender loving care).

The Guinness Book of Records is suppose to be 23% and is held by brewer in
the UK.

If you are interested in trying for a 20+% brew, I will be glad to work with
you.

Clayton Cone
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:41:57 +0200
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - sugar utilization enzyme questions, and some more

Greetings Dr.Cone!

Since some months ago I am attempting something as stupid as a beer
fermentation simulation model and I've many questions that I would love to
have your and everybody elses opinion on. I can't choose which are most
important questions so I will just list them all. I don't expect to get
answers to all of them and I don't even know to what extent all questions
are well defined. But in any case all ideas and input on some of them from
you would be very appreciated! The background of the question is a quest to
find an algorithm that will simulate yeast and the most relevant parts in
fermentation, and as accurate as possible predict the CO2 production with
time.

Related to yeasts sugar utilization that may be of interest for stuck
fermentations, in a wort consisting of mono, di and trisaccharides, I've
read that the simplest sugars are the first to be transported into the cell
and digested and each sugar needs a specific enzyme in order to be broken
down to monosaccharides. If the transport proteins are blocked or if for
some reason the relevant enzyme to break down the sugar is deactived the
fermentation may get stuck?

My questions are, (sugar utiliztion)

1) what basic variables could possibly determine the synthesis and activity
of these enzymes, as well as the activity of the transport proteins?

2) What are the possible mechanism for jammng or blocking a transporter or
inhibiting an enzyme (like maltotriase) that would in turn cause a stuck
fermentation?

3) Also, when does the synthesis of these enzymes occur (ie. maltase,
maltotriase, etc)? Does it occur upon request when a new type of sugar is
arriving, or is it synthesised during budding or maturation so it only has
to activate? Or are they always active?

4) Also "how sequenced" is uptake of the sugarprofile? Is there an overlap
in the mono -> di, and di -> tri transitions, or is there possibly a tiny
delay or dip in energyproduction for that transition?

Also I've got a nutrition uptake related question

5) I've read that the uptake of nutritions, or at least FAN are restriced to
the lag phase that are put into pools used throughout the fermentation. And
that nutrutions that are added in the middle of fermentation is not
utilized. Is this true, and why? Are the transporters blocked or busy? Are
there special purpose transporters for amino acid uptake that are never used
for sugars?

And a question regarding sterol and oxygen

6) From books and articles I've read that sterol levels are important for
cell permeability. What are the details on this? Does low sterols cause the
wall to "leak", or to become unpermeable? Or does it simply cause some of
the transport mechanism to malfunct in general? What do you think about
modelling the effiecny of the transporters as increasing with sterols, so
that low sterols would basically be blocked and at a high enough sterol
levels the permeability would reach the ideal and maximum value?

And a last but not least, a lag related question

7) Does the yeast absorb all oxygen and nutriutions, or at least until the
cellular pools for this are full before starting sugar uptake? Or can the
sugar uptake start in parallell even though at slow rate to supply extra
energy? Is it possible to set a condition for the start of sugar uptake?
Such are "all pools full", or "no nutritions left to absorb"? I have
considerd the case were the cells are very low on glycogen, and that the
energy supplies from glycogen simply are not enough to power synthesis of
sterols and other things during the lag phase - in such a case. Without
sugar uptake starting in parallell,
a) would yeast would be stuck in the lag phase forever?
or
b) Would it stop all nutrition uptake and synthesis due to lack of energy,
and instead start to uptake sugar - and NOT do any more nutrition uptake?

8) Does yeast synthesise sterols exclusively during the lag phase or can it
do so later on if there are enough oxygen and other building blocks in the
late part of fermentation?

Comments on some of these questions from Dr Cone or someone else that has
some ideas would be very appreciated!! Sorry about the long list of
questions, but excited to have Dr.Cone on here I decided to let it all out
what I have been thinking of lately. I have probably missed even more
questions anyway :)

 /Fredrik
  Sweden


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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:55:18 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds to John Palmer-Cidery Flavour

			Dr. Cone Responds to John Palmer-Cidery Flavour

Good Morning Dr. Cone!
   First let me say that it has always been a pleasure just chatting beer
with you when we have met at some of the various brewing conferences
over the past few years.
   My question this time is the legendary  cidery flavor that homebrewers
have gotten from brewing with refined sugars as a significant portion
of the wort. To this day, any homebrewing book that you pick up will
warn against the use of sugars except for priming because of the
dreaded cidery flavor.
   Do you have any idea of what is causing this flavor?
I know of several theories by experienced brewers. For instance, Al
Korzonas states in his book Homebrewing Volume 1 that although pure
glucose, sucrose and partially inverted sucrose worts all had the
cidery flavor, that the strongest was in the pure sucrose. This finding
suggests the flavor might be due to invartase enzyme produced by the
yeast. Or he goes on to say, it may be due to the lack of proper yeast
nutrients in the worts.
   Dan Listermann of Listermann Manufacturing has posted that in his
experience, the flavor seems more associated with stale liquid malt
extract. He had brewed several expired beer kits from his shelves and
had used dry malt extract in lieu of sugar and still had the cidery
taste. He had brewed high sucrose worts using fresh malt extract and
had not experienced the cidery flavor. He suspected that the cidery
flavor was nearly always present, but that in higher sugar worts, was
not effectively masked by other malt character.
   For myself, I only remember my very first beer being extremely cidery,
and it was a high corn sugar, light beer kit. I seem to remember that
my second beer was all liquid malt extract, and only had a slight cider
flavor if any. I only recently started brewing with extract again, and
have not experienced it at all. I wonder if the yeast may be a cause.
My first beer was made with Red Star Brewing Yeast, as was the second.
Do you think yeast strain may be a factor?
   I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you,
John Palmer


John Palmer,
I am glad to be back with you guys again. It helps me to refresh myself with
the brewing side of fermentation.

I have not seen any definitive research done on Cidery Flavor in beer.  I
believe both Al Korsonas and Dan Listermann are on the right track.
Fermenting pure sugar: glucose, fructose and sucrose, will produce an
estery, cidery, aroma. Malt tends to mask the pronounces estery aroma.  The
higher the % malt present, the greater the masking.  Fresh malt will mask
more than old, stale malt. As the malt extract ages, a maillard reaction
takes place, binding the amino acids with reducing sugars. The masking
effect is lessened and the nutrient value of the amino acids is bound up.

Some commercial breweries add cereal adjuncts and or pure sugar without
producing the cidery flavor.  The fresh malt wort and the right balance of
malt with the added sugar or sugar source, masks (or prevents) any cider
flavor.

Low nutrients could play a role.  Some work that I have done replacing malt
with 25, 50 and 75% glucose indicates that you can replace a higher level of
sugar and still produce a reasonably good beer when you add a rich yeast
nutrient such as Fermaid K.

I would not rule out yeast strain as a factor.  When you are on the
borderline of wort/sugar balance and you use a very high ester producing
yeast--who knows.

I will keep my eyes open for a more definitive answer.

Clayton Cone
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:45:33 -0400
From: "Jeff & Ellen" <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: Mr. Manners

Lou King of Ijamsville, MD. asks when is it appropriate to bring homebrew to
a party.

Gentle Drinker,

Although Mr. Manners would not presume that a gift of homebrew is always
well received, having not been privy to the general quality of the offerings
in question, he would none-the-less appreciate the thought involved in the
offering.  Mr. Manners is also well aware that the vast majority of American
beer drinkers is not as appreciative of actual beer flavor as the average
homebrewer and may not therefore show the appropriate gratitude that your
gift deserves.  However it should never be deemed appropriate, no matter how
formal the gathering, that an offering of homebrew would be considered
offensive to the host.  They will be delighted, whether or not they have the
time or the pleasure to sample any during the evening.

It would be recommended that the bearer of the homebrew specify at the
outset of the gathering that the contents of the aforementioned growlers is
to be shared among the like-minded aficionados during the evening, perhaps
by bringing a separate gift for the hosts, pleasantly wrapped and tagged, to
emphasize that the homebrew is for the party and the containers are not.

Mr. Manners recently attended such a party and was delighted to find a wide
variety of excellent commercial beers available, the sampling of which
negated any impression of homebrew snobbery on his part.  He hopes that the
Gentle Drinker is willing to detach himself from his own offerings long
enough to have the pleasure of the hosts' hospitality.



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