HOMEBREW Digest #4323 Thu 14 August 2003

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  Dr. Cone Repsonds to -yeast stored-William Frazier ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds to -- pitching mixed cultures- Jeff Renner ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds to- Sven Pfitt-Mutations ("Rob Moline")
  I just had to post this... ;-) (John Palmer)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - wort oxygenation (Bob Devine)
  Dave Logsdon Responds-- Foul Smell--Gump Comment- ("Rob Moline")
  RE: Yeast Stirring (John Schnupp)
  Dr.Cone 2003 (Jurriaan and Jann)
  Re: Double the recipe? (DHinrichs)
  Thanks (Robert Sandefer)
  Exploding CO2 tanks, really? (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Dr. Cone, 2003 - Killer Strains (Jeff Renner)
  Beer in NorCal/Sonoma ("Stefan Berggren")
  Dr. Cone ("Mold Testing and Solutions")
  Aerobic yeast propagation (FLJohnson)
  mash temperature too low ("Ronnie Anderson")
  Aerobic yeast propagation (FLJohnson)
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Double_the_recipe=3F?= ("=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=")
  Re: Two-gauge regulator progress report (Kevin Wagner)
  Dr. Clayton Cone ("Harlan Nilsen")
  More Potato Beer (MOREY Dan)
  Re: Yeast Stirring (Demonick)
  Beer and Massive brain anurism. ("Chad Stevens")
  hemacytometer (orourke mike)
  Where to drink in Denver ("William Graham")
  Dr. Cone/ Tobias Fischborn Responds - Fredrik-Part 1 ("Rob Moline")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * * http://www.hbd.org/store.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * COMING TO THE HBD! * * * * * * * * * Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast * * 8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:40:57 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Repsonds to -yeast stored-William Frazier Dr. Cone Repsonds to -yeast stored-William Frazier Dr. Cone - I've purchased a 500 gram quantity of BM-45 wine yeast. This is more than I will use for winemaking this season. Can this yeast be stored for future use? If so, what would be the best conditions? Thanks. Bill Frazier Bill Frazier, Active Dry Yeast, at <5% moisture, is originally packaged in an oxygen free atmosphere either via nitrogen flush or vacuum. Under these conditions they will loose about 20% activity / year when stored at 20C.(68F) and about 5% activity / year when stored at 4C.(40F). It is the presence of Oxygen and the pick up of small amounts of moisture that causes the yeast to deteriorate at a faster rate, once the package has been opened. If you can vacuum pack (kitchen vacuum package equipment)or store in an air tight container and refrigerate you may retain a substantial amount of the activity. It would be wise to increase the inoculum 50% to be on the safe side. It is always a gamble, depending on how much moisture the cells have picked up each time you open and close the package and return to the refrigerator. Do not store in freezer. Freezing is deadly to some strains of yeast. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:44:58 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds to -- pitching mixed cultures- Jeff Renner Dr. Cone Responds to -- pitching mixed cultures- Jeff Renner Dr Cone According to beer writer Michael Jackson, the Belgian ale Duvel is fermented with two yeasts, both originally isolated by De Clerck from 10-20 strains in McEwan's Scotch ale between the wars. See http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000020.html. Jackson writes "both [yeasts] are used in primary fermentation. The brew is divided into two separate batches, one for each yeast. These two batches are not of equal sizes." The separate batches are filtered and blended after secondary, and one of the strains reintroduced for bottling. Why do you think this is done, rather than simply pitching them both into the same wort? Assuming that there is no K (killer) factor involved (since they both coexisted in the original McEwan's), how do you think the results would differ if the yeasts were both pitched into one wort in the same proportion as the sizes of the two batches at Duvel? I'd appreciate any further thoughts you might have regarding mixed cultures of yeasts in traditional and/or historic ales. Thanks. Jeff Renner Jeff Renner, Each strain has its own growth rate and nutrient requirement and can be controlled better when fermented separately. When fermented together, they may not remain 50/50 in the fermentation. One strain can easily out grow and dominate the other throwing the desired balance of flavor and aroma off balance. In the wine industry, especially Champagne, it is not uncommon to ferment three or more strains separately then blend different preportions of each to achieve a desired mouthfeel, flavor and aroma profile. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:48:32 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds to- Sven Pfitt-Mutations Dr. Cone Responds to- Sven Pfitt-Mutations From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 I have read repeatedly that yeast will mutate after several reuses in the homebrew environment. If the yeast mutate at this high of a rate, how do breweries maintain consistent yeast characteristics, and how are pure cultures maintained without mutations? If yeast mutate at such a rapid rate, how are yeast characteristics maintained over the period of many years as we have seen. It seems to me that the culprit is not mutation, but more likely contamination. Thank you. Respectfully, Steven Parfitt Steven Parfitt, Mutation does occur. Sometimes naturally and sometimes from abuse such as excessive or abusive acid wash. There is no real handle on how much of a problem it is. Sometimes it takes sophisticated equipment to detect the mutation plus a DNA fingerprint on the original strain. Sometimes mutation occurs on a portion of the gene that does not effect the beer making ability of the yeast and go undetected because it does not effect the beer. The big commercial breweries minimize the mutation problem by repitching only 3 to 5 times (this minimizes infection problems also). They also draw from a master source or culture on an infrequent bases (yearly?) and prepare enough slants or tubes from that source to last an extended production period. They frequently DNA fingerprint inoculums to be certain that no mutation has occurred. You are right. Infection is much more of a problem. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:00:43 -0700 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: I just had to post this... ;-) I have blanked the name to protect the quester's right to privacy, but this was so off the wall I had to post it. Enjoy! John On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 05:34 PM, (deleted) wrote: > Hello, John, > My name is (deleted). I live in L.A.. I > came across your name in my internet search > for a live brewer's yeast supplement. I wonder if > you know from whom I might purchase bulk > quantities of unheated brewer's yeast? > Thank you for your time. > Wishing well, > (deleted) Hi (deleted), Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling you are looking for a (human) dietary supplement?? If that is the case, then the answer is no, because while I do know of yeast manufacturers (ex. White Labs of San Diego) that sort of brewing yeast would not be cheap. However...if you are really interested in ingesting live brewers yeast, then you could go to one of the several microbreweries around LA and request a yeast sample. (Tell them you are a homebrewer) You will probably have to come back at some point during the week with a tupperware container, but they could easily give you a quart of the stuff. And, I have to mention that if you really intend on ingestion, that live brewing yeast is Laxative City! Well, good luck, John On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 09:38 PM, (deleted) wrote: Mr. Palmer, YOU are so cool!. Thank you very much for the information. Funnily enough, Laxative City is just where I need to be. All the warmest, (deleted) John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:01:44 -0600 From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - wort oxygenation Dr. Cone, thanks for the expert assistance! Question: Some British brewers "drop" their fermenting wort up to a day after adding yeast. How effective is this for adding oxygen? And how late can wort be oxygenated? Bob Devine Simmering with yet another day over 100F in Utah... Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:19:16 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dave Logsdon Responds-- Foul Smell--Gump Comment- Dave Logsdon Responds-- Foul Smell--Gump Comment- Folks, As this question contains a reference to 'pitchable tubes,' and as that has, at least in my mind, become synonymous with Wyeast....(WhiteLabs describes a product as 'pitchable vials', so it could possibly be either) I initially rejected this question.... Consequently, I have asked Dave Logsdon of Wyeast to handle this..... He has graciously, and at short notice stepped up... Thank you, Sir! Trusting you understand...and approve.... Gump Dr. Cone, Over the past few years, I have practiced a crude form of yeast ranching. After stepping up a smack-pack (1/3 cup DME in one pint of water, boiled 10-15 minutes) in preparation for brewing, I would innoculate a second flask and allow it to grow to krausen and then place it in the refrigerator for the next brewing session. Sometimes, this brewing session would occur months later. Essentially, the yeast was stored under refrigerated beer. Prior to brewing, I decant the supernatant and ptich the slurry into a starter. Sometimes it takes 2 steps before a good karusen. I would repeat the process several times with the same culture, storing successuve cultures and growing them up as needed with no detectable adverse effects. Recently after reading about the benefits of oxygenation/airation, I bought a stir plate, an aquarium pump, and an in line HEPA filter (used for IV infusions). Additionally, I began adding 1 TSP of a "yeast nutrient" which I interpret to be yeast hulls (yellow granular appearnce) to my cup of starter solution during the boil. I then fed the sanitized air line from the aquarium pump through the HEPA filter and into the hole in the rubber stoppered flask and stirred the culture at a moderate rate using filtered room air for airation. On two occasions, once after pitching yeast sediment from one of my refrigerator cultures and once after pitching one of the new pitchable yeast tubes, I noted a very foul smell, much like burning plastic wire insulation or burnt rubber. The culture from the refrigerator made acceptable beer, no adverse tastes but a tremendous amount of yeast sediment (I believe it was a California ale yeast I used for a wheat beer so it was difficult to evaluate whether the haze was due to poor floculation from a wild yeast infection). The culture from the pitchable tube (kolsch) made two horrible batches, one alt and and one kolsch. In all fairness, I have never attempted these styles before and now understand that this yeast needs to be cold conditioned despite being called an ale yeast. Both batches just wouldn't clear and never developed a clean taste. This weekend, I stepped up another pitchable yeast tube, a Bavarian Wheat for a hefeweizen. I used only 1/4 TSP of the yellow yeast nutrient and added 1/4 TSP of "yeast energizer". I stirred for 48 hours without using the aquarium pump. Instead, I inserted the HEPPA filter directly into the stopper to filter incoming ambient room air. I detected the same foul smell, but it was very faint. Is this smell due to autolized yeast? Is it due to one of the yeast nutrients? How about an infection from the aquarium pump? Am I stirring too long and exhausting the media and nutrients causing yeast autolosys? Thanks in advance for your time. Todd in Idaho Todd in Idaho, A couple of things you indicate follow a pattern to some extent. One key to the questions, is the aroma that was noted to varying degrees from three different sources. The burnt rubber aroma which appears to be a common thread from 3 different yeast strains may be an indication. This aroma is often associated with what some describe as 'phenolic'. This is somewhat a catch all for a number of compounds usually associated with wheat beer yeast, many Belgian yeast strains and wild yeast. The compounds can vary in strength and character depending on the strain itself or how it is handled. This would include temperatures and, aeration levels. Some of these yeast have relatively high levels of phenylethylene, a plastic resinous like odor, like the synthesized compound known as styrene. Since ale yeast and kolsch yeast typically do not have measurable amounts of phenylethylene, or 4-vinyl guaiacol, which is another common wheat beer associated compound, it may be likely that it was introduced by another yeast strain or wild yeast. Even in the Bavarian Wheat beer strain you noted "the same foul smell", which typical will have detectable levels of the above compounds. This could be from the wheat beer strain itself, another organism, or a combination. Whether from a known wheat beer yeast strain or a wild yeast, the relative levels of these compounds vary and can be perceived quite differently. I find phenolic compounds from wild yeast and bacteria to have a much different (undesirable profile) as compared to German style wheat beer strains and many Belgian yeast strains. Regarding other possible sources you inquired about, autolysis typically can be better described as sulphery, and dirty diaper. I have not seen where yeast nutrients contribute the type of odor you describe either. If you place the yeast directly from the package into fully boilded cooled wort do you get the same foul smell? Cheers! David Logsdon - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:32:05 -0700 (PDT) From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Yeast Stirring Ron give some ideas about building a stirrer: >Definitely worth having one, but most are somewhat expensive. You can >build one fairly easily with a small motor with a bar magnet clamped >to a spinner of some kind. You could use a small brass gear as the >spindle, clamp the magnet to it, and mount onto the motor shaft. He is correct. If you are a tinkerer and handy with tools you can put something together pretty quickly. I haven't brewed over a year now so mine is gathering dust. I used it regularly and found that I had more yeast growth than without. I also aerate with HEPA filtered air. I don't even bother to bubble it thru the wort as Jeff does. I think there is more than enough mixing if the stir speed is high enough to create a slight vortex in the liquid. Be forewarned, I'm not a web page designer so these pages are not all fancy, mostly text and links to photos. Check out my stirrer page: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~johnschnupp/stirrer/stirrer.htm I give information about how a stirrer can be built using a DC motor, magnet and a variable power supply. And the starter page: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~johnschnupp/starter/starter.htm Information about how I use the stirrer to make my starters. These pages DO NOT contain step by step instructions. They provide general information. A lot of the specifics about building a stirrer depend upon the materials you start with. Also, my starter procedure might not be what someone else does but it is what has a proved track record of working for me. ===== John Schnupp, N3CNL ??? Hombrewery [560.2, 68.6] Rennerian Georgia, VT 95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:19:24 +1000 From: Jurriaan and Jann <jannjurriaan at iprimus.com.au> Subject: Dr.Cone 2003 Dear Dr.Cone, At present I oxygenate my wort inline during cooling with pure (?) O2 as I assume it to be as close to sterile as possible in a homebrew situation and hence more practical than working with an aeration stone and aquarium pump after cooling to pitching temp. Although I have not experienced any problems with fermentation, I wondered what your views on it would be regarding yeast health etc. Thank you for devoting some of your valuable time to answer questions on the HBD. Jurriaan Boekamp Hobart, Australia Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:28:46 -0500 From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com Subject: Re: Double the recipe? "Mike Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Double the recipe? >I've just recently scaled up to 10 gal. batches from 5 gal. batches.. I've heard that, on >a large scale, you can't scale up on a linear rate.. (I.e. going from 5 gal at home to 14 >bbl at a pub) But does that count for a small scale HB thing like this, 5 to 10 gal steps? >Most recipes I run across in books and online are for 5 gal, but now I want 10.. Nit-> >picking, or no? I find on my system the efficency goes up 5-10% YMMV. Dave, Minnetonka mn This Email has been scanned for all viruses and objectionable content. For AntiVirus Services contact: AntiVirus at quannon.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:35:39 -0400 From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net> Subject: Thanks I'd like to thank those who responded to my All-grain Problem. I have since brewed a second all-grain batch and hit my target mash temperature...of course the mash stuck <sigh> but that was problem the 5 lbs of rye malt. Thanks again. Sante Robert Sandefer Arlington, VA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:36:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> Subject: Exploding CO2 tanks, really? >From previous HBD: > Calvin Perilloux asks why compressed gas tanks are dangerous > and should be chained or anchored... Well, no, to be perfectly pedantic, I already knew that tanks ought to be anchored -- I was asking why aluminum tanks *in particular* are more dangerous. > Aluminum is particularly susceptible because, relative to steel, > it is quite brittle. -Kevin Really? I have been under the impression that aluminum is significantly WEAKER than steel. But more brittle? These are different properties. Can one of the metallurgists chime in? I also suspect that aluminum tanks are engineered such that they'd not split and explode if they fell over. Look at the smash marks on the side of (some of) those tanks, and you know they've had some very serious abuse. Sideways smacking on the regulator would likely demolish the more delicate regulator rather than twist apart the seriously-heavily-engineered top of the tank. The main danger from falling over is probably: (1) Falling on your foot, or worse..., (2) If the gas is on, liquid CO2 getting into the regulator and exploding that But not the tank itself exploding. Of that, I am most highly doubtful. Calvin Perilloux Middletown, Maryland, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:34:17 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Dr. Cone, 2003 - Killer Strains Al K <brewinfo at xnet.com> writes from Homer Glen, IL >Dr. Cone-- >Are there "killer strains" of beer yeast as there are in wine yeasts? I can answer that, although not as authoritatively as Dr Cone, so I hope he will answer too. The Burton Bridge Brewery in UK uses such a yeast according to http://www.midlandspubs.co.uk/burtonbridge/brewery.htm : "The yeast was selected from the National Yeast collection catalogue ... . By chance, the final selection also had a wild yeast killer factor" I had thought that Rogues's Pacman yeast also had this, but a google search doesn't support that. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:39:17 -0500 From: "Stefan Berggren" <yeastfarmer at hotmail.com> Subject: Beer in NorCal/Sonoma I will be traveling in Sonoma and the surrounding areas September 13-21st and would like to get some advice on where a beer minded individual should go? I plan on taking a trip to Bear Republic, but what are some of the other breweries, brew-pubs and tap-friendly establishments should I visit? Stefan Berggren Madison, WI home of the Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:08:18 -0400 From: "Mold Testing and Solutions" <mrzar at ic.net> Subject: Dr. Cone Thank you Dr. Cone for sharing your knowledge. If I want to "grow" yeast fast what would be your suggestions. I have read if you keep a constant temp, O2, limit glucose to >.4% with stirring, yeast will stay in the resportory (growth) state and grow rapidly. I have found limited info on the process. What would be the doubling rate if good constants were kept? Thank you ------- bobz Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:15:10 -0400 From: FLJohnson at portbridge.com Subject: Aerobic yeast propagation There have been a few posts recently regarding the question of whether stirring a yeast starter will improve yield. I doubt that simply stirring the culture will have a significant effect on the number of yeast cells you will produce, keeping all other variables the same. What one wishes to do is to keep the yeast metabolizing the sugar into biomass and CO2 rather than alcohol and CO2. To achieve this, one must maintain LOW sugar concentrations in the medium and provide oxygen. This will allow the yeast to respire rather than ferment. If the glucose concentration in the medium rises above 0.4% (approximately), the yeast will ferment the sugar, no matter how much oxygen and stirring you provide. See my post to the HBD from a few years back below. In regard to the following post, the YeastLink web site is long gone. Fred L Johnson Apex, North Carolina, USA - -- >I have been interested in establishing an aerobic yeast propogation system >for my starters. Such a system putatively has the advantage of producing >large amounts of yeast in minimal volumes in minimal time. Below is an >excerpt from the YeastLink website in which the method and commercial >equipment for this process is described. > Glucose levels in a all-malt wort are in the approximate range of 1% - 1.5 > %. Brewer's yeast has a metabolic effect where the yeast will respond to > glucose levels above 0.4% with or without the presence of oxygen by > metabolizing the sugar through fermentation rather than respiration. > If the yeast propagation is aerated and the culture is fed incrementally > with sterile wort at a rate that the yeast metabolizes the glucose to keep > the level of this sugar in the propagation below 0.4%, the yeast will stay > in a respiratory or growth state. A similar process is utilized in the > production of baker's yeast although molasses is utilized instead of > brewer's wort. Under these circumstances, far more energy is available to > the yeast cell than under fermentative conditions and far more yeast is > produced while less alcohol is produced. The yeast produced from this > method are in highest growth phase(log phase) and can be pitched at a > dilution rate of 1:100 or higher. The volume of the propagation medium is > 1% or less of the batch total. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:15:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ronnie Anderson" <lerxst at webmages.com> Subject: mash temperature too low I bought a new digital thermometer the other day and decided to use it during my 10 gallon brew session last night (hefe-weizen). A buddy of mine gave me a mercury calibration thermometer, so I checked the digital one against it at 3 different times while heating my strike water, and it was always within 1 degree. - Heated strike water to 172 - Mixed grain and water and had digital therm. probe in while stirring - Temp stayed steady in the 160s, so I dumped in some cold water - Mash temp steady at 153 according to digital therm. After about 45 minutes I noticed that the digital therm. said it was 107 in the brew room, and the calibration thermometer said it was in the high 80s?? Took lid off and checked mash with calibration therm...135!?!? Checked the temp with my old standby therm...133! A quick iodine test said there was still some starch left, so I dumped in some boiling water to get the temp up to 152 and let it sit for another 45 minutes or so before sparging. The sparge and boil went well, but there was an extraordinary amount of break material floating around. I actually hit my target gravity (according to my new hydrometer, that is). Anyone have any idea as to whether this beer will turn out ok?? TIA! Ronnie Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:26:42 -0400 From: FLJohnson at portbridge.com Subject: Aerobic yeast propagation Oops. I forgot to include in my last post the following table showing the benefits on yeast production of aeration versus aeration pplus continuous infusion of wort into the culture to maintain low glucose concentrations. YIELDS OF YEAST AND ETHANOL Mass (kg) Medium Conditions Yeast Ethanol Wort Unaerated 2.7 17.5 Wort Aerated 8.6 10.5 Wort Aerated-Incremental Feed 23 0.7 Molasses Aerated-Incremental Feed 50 0 *from Malting and Brewing Science Fred L Johnson Apex, North Caroina USA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:34:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Bristol?=" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Double_the_recipe=3F?= On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:46:26 -0400, "Mike Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net> queried: > I've just recently scaled up to 10 gal. batches from 5 gal. batches.. > I've heard that, on a large scale, you can't scale up on a linear > rate.. (I.e. going from 5 gal at home to 14 bbl at a pub) But does that > count for a small scale HB thing like this, 5 to 10 gal steps? Most > recipes I run across in books and online are for 5 gal, but now I want > 10.. > Nit-picking, or no? I did the same thing about 2 years ago. My answer is "double the recipe", especially if all other other factors remain the same (proportionally). I think the key factor will be boil volume. I went from a "full volume" boil (meaning 6 gallons from the mash tun boiled 90 minutes) to a "full volume" boil (meaning 12 gallons from the mash tun boiled 90 minutes). With this kind of "change", your recipes should scale up linearly. That being said, I have to admit that I was forced to make some recipe adjustments. I attribute these adjustments, however, to all of the other changes that were made simultaneously, such as a new water source and all new equipment. The key adjustment involved a noticable increase in hop utilization, requiring me to reduce the amount of hops used. This might be explained by the increase in the wort wolume, but I find it hard to understand why more alpha acid would get extracted in 12 gallons than in 6 when the gravity is identical in both. - -- Larry Bristol Bellville, TX http://www.doubleluck.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:01:38 -0700 From: Kevin Wagner <kevin.wagner at watchmark.com> Subject: Re: Two-gauge regulator progress report Sven Pfitt dispels Kevin's rumor that valve heads are easily knocked off... It is likely you are absolutely correct, though, every welder I've ever worked with has been superstitious about it. While I've never seen a valve head knocked off, I have seen a badly damaged regulator - which should be encouragement enough. -Kevin Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:20:56 -0500 From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com> Subject: Dr. Clayton Cone Dr. Cone, I am planning on brewing a barley wine as soon as the weather cools off enough so I can maintain a fermentation temp of 65-70 deg. F. It will have an OG of approximately 1.110. I have purchased 3 paks of Nottingham yeast (11 gm per pak) and am wondering if this should be enough yeast for 5 gallons. I have been told that it may be too much yeast but I want enough to promote a good healthy ferment. I will aerate the wort well with pure O2 and add any fermentation aids that you may suggest. Thank you for sharing your expertise. Harlan Nilsen Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:15:31 -0500 From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com> Subject: More Potato Beer Jeff writes: >I tasted a potato beer made by Point Brewery a few years ago for a potato festival in >Wisconsin. Tasted a bit potatoey and earthy. I wouldn't bother except as a project. I haven't had Point's potato beer so I cannot comment to it taste. However, if I used the same logic, I would have never attempted a Pilsner after too many years of Miller Lite, a fine Pilsner so they (Miller) say. My experience has been that potatoes do not contribute an earthy flavor. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I peal and slice the potatoes. The flavor is clean or neutral. What I have found, which surprised me, is it added a silkiness or creaminess to the body. Perhaps the starch structure is more complex and the resulting sugar are less fermentable. For some reason there is a bias against potato beers. My neighbor laughed at me until he tried my "Mashed" Potato Ale. To this day, he tells me that out of all the beers I made, the potato beer is his favorite. "Mashed" Potato (5 gallons) OG 1.039 FG 1.009 Est. IBU 32 Est. SRM 6 6.50 lb 2-row 0.25 lb wheat malt 0.50 lb crystal 10L 0.50 lb special roast 3.00 lb red potatoes 1.00 oz Perle (60 minutes) 0.50 oz Tettnang (10 minutes) 1056 American Ale 1. Dough-in with 1.1 gallons of cold tap water. 2. Boil potatoes with 0.92 gallons of water. Add potatoes and boiling water to bring mash up to 120F. Hold for 30 minutes. 3. Add 0.71 gallons boiling water to raise mash to 140F. Hold for 30 minutes. 4. Add 0.86 gallons boiling water to raise mash to 155F. Hold for 60 minutes. 5. Mash out at 170F A couple years later, I brewed Melting Pot Lager. When I shared it with my fellow brewers in BABBLE, their comments were all very positive. Several asked that I invite them over to brew the next time I made potato beer. Melting Pot Lager (5 gallons) OG 1.057 FG 1.019 Est. IBU 22 Est. SRM 3 7.00 lb 2-row 0.50 lb wheat malt 1.00 lb rolled oats 3.00 lb red potatoes 1.00 lb wild flower honey (add at end of boil) 0.70 oz Perle (60 minutes) 0.50 oz Cascade (30 minutes) 0.30 oz Styrian golding (5 minutes) Bavarian lager yeast 1. Dough-in with 1.03 gallons cold tap water. 2. Boil potatoes with 0.61 gallons of water. Add potatoes and boiling water to bring mash up to 120F. Hold for 30 minutes. 3. Add 0.80 gallons boiling water to raise mash to 140F. Hold for 30 minutes. 4. Add 1.10 gallons boiling water to raise mash to 155F. Hold for 60 minutes. 5. Mash out at 170F The last batch, Yukon Gold, was a wonderful CAP. At competition it only scored 29 out of 50, but this was due to low carbonation and low bittereness. I disagree with the judges comment concerning bitterness. Jeff's CAP, which is excellent BTW, to me has a full/rich hop flavor. It is not just bitterness. To me it is the hop flavor that is key to a good Pilsner. In my previous post I wasn't trying to knock corn, I wish I had as good of results with corn or maize as Jeff and others do. Yukon Gold (10 gallons) OG 1.051 FG 1.018 Est. IBU 28 Est. SRM 4 14.00 lb Belgian Pilsner 1.00 lb crystal 10L 10.00 lb Yukon gold potatoes 1.20 oz Centennial (60 minutes) 0.70 oz Santium (17 minutes) 1.30 oz Saaz (2 minutes) Wyeast # 2272 N. American lager 1. Dough-in with 1.90 gallons cold tap water. 2. Boil potatoes with 4.08 gallons of water. Add potatoes and boiling water to bring mash up to 152F. Hold for 70 minutes. 3. Mash out at 170F Before you decide potato beer is not for you, give it a try. It is easy, no cereal mash required. You might just like it. Keep on brewin' Dan Morey Club B.A.B.B.L.E. http://hbd.org/babble [213.1, 271.5] mi Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:44:59 -0700 From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: Re: Yeast Stirring I do it too, and have been for a few years. There are yeast starter pages, both aerated and anaerobic on my webpage, and some glassware tips. http://www.primetab/com/general.html Aerated starters ferment very quickly, and I you may never notice any signs of active fermentation. The best indicator is the color of the solution. The initial wort starts out dark, but fairly clear, like any wort. After fermentation it resembles chocolate milk. Domenick Venezia Venezia & Company, LLC Maker of PrimeTab (206) 782-1152 phone (206) 782-6766 fax Seattle, WA demonick at zgi dot com http://www.primetab.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:02:52 -0700 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: Beer and Massive brain anurism. One and all, My Father-in-law had a massive brain aneurysm Friday evening (it's been a long week) virtually displacing one hemisphere with blood. His 75th birthday is Friday and he has been a chronic consumer of fat/cholesterol/salt with a bp of 240/200 or better most of the time. He had about five Tecate beers on Tuesday, three days before the aneurysm. Alcohol in moderation is a vaso-dilator reducing blood pressure. It is my understanding that in heavy doses alcohol can become a vaso-constrictor. His family is blaming the aneurysm on his binge three days before rather than accepting the fact that diet/lifestyle is the chief culprit (and my concern is that they will fall to much the same demise if they don't change their eating habits). So my question is, could the alcohol have played some role in his having an aneurysm when chronic high fat/cholesterol/salt intake is the obvious culprit? Thanks, Chad Stevens San Diego P.S. Is anyone going to introduce Dr. Cone to the gyno thread? (snicker, guffaw) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:53:07 -0700 (PDT) From: orourke mike <dert12345 at yahoo.com> Subject: hemacytometer Anyone have a make/model of a suitable hemacytometer for yeast cell counts? I found this one https://www1.fishersci.com/Couponcid=1333&gid=139669&details=Y and am wondering if it will work. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:47:05 -0600 From: "William Graham" <billg at compasscom.com> Subject: Where to drink in Denver Alex Hazlett <alexdhaze at yahoo.com> wants to know where to drink in Denver - Just off the top of my head, start in LoDo and go to the Falling Rock. 69 beers on tap and "no crap on tap". Wonderful selection and Chris ( the co-owner ) can talk your ears off about beer. The staff are usually quite knowledgable and friendly. Then, stroll soutwest 1.5 blocks and northwest 2 blocks to the Wynkoop. Not a beer wonderland but many good beers available, and many accessible to our less-enlightened friends. I've also enjoyed the food there. If you wish to stay in Lodo, you can go to Broadway Brewing, Rock Bottom, Breckenridge, and the Sandlot BP at Coors field. There are a few others, I'm sure, but it's been awhile. Go west to Golden. Go into Coors and take the "short" tour. Just ask a guide. ( The short tour means going directly to the tasting room ). The absolutely fresh Coors is worth the 20 minute diversion. Then find Golden City Brewing. A fine little brewpub literally in a garage in one of the older neighborhoods in Golden. You can get an sandwich and a bag of chips on a paper plate and eat in the back yard along with your fine and fresh beer. I just like that small town atmosphere. Then go north to Boulder. Go directly to Mountain Sun just east of the Pearl Street Mall. Just about one of the best brewpubs in Colorado, with the emphasis on beer. Please have a 'Colorado Kind' followed by an "XXX". Please thank me in private. If you're hungry, walk up to BJ's Pizza, where they make good pizza and good beer. Frankly, I have to stop here. There are so many brewpubs in and around Denver that I can't possibly list them all ( one hell of a problem, I tell ya!... please keep the sympathy messages offlist, okay? Save room for the other posters ). IMHO, these that I mentioned are at the top of the list. Bill Used to live in Golden, now living in Elizabeth, 52.3 miles from Falling Rock. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:47:02 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone/ Tobias Fischborn Responds - Fredrik-Part 1 Dr. Cone/ Tobias Fischborn Responds - Fredrik-Part 1 Folks, We are fortunate to be joined by Dr. Tobias Fischborn of Lallemand, a colleague of Dr. Cone. Clayton said he may be asking for help from such luminaries in the field as Tobias, as he says "No one can know it all!" (I will resist the urge to phone Dave Burley to tell him this!-Gump-- ;-) ) Fredrik, You have taken on a huge task which is beyond what I can help you with in a brief session. The variables are mind boggling in a batch process. The media that the yeast finds itself is dynamic. It is changing from moment to moment: The stress of the osmotic effect is going down as the sugar is converted to alcohol. At the same time the stress of the alcohol is increasing. The number of yeast cells are increasing during the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the fermentation. The individual yeast cells produces 20 - 30 times as much alcohol while it is growing than it does when it reaches the stationary phase. Available nutrients change as the yeast grows. Temperature can change if good controls are not in place. pH and CO2 levels change. In a continuous, steady state process the variables are minimized yet are still many. Each variable effects the rate of fermentation and the resulting CO2 production. Many researchers have worked out good models on separate variables and some variables in combination. I would suggest that you find a good technical library and search through both brewing and wine technical journals. Since you are interested in transport systems, enzymes and metabolic pathways, I will suggest two excellent text books: "Brewing Yeast Fermentation Performance" 2nd. edition, edited by Katherine Smart (last name very descriptive) Blackwell Publishing, ISBN 0-632-06498-6. "YEAST Physiology and Biotechnology" by Graeme Walker, Wiley Publisher, ISBN 0-471-96446-8. Please feel free to ask more questions. I sometimes feel that I am not on the same wavelength as you, so I may not answer the question to your satisfaction. I have asked a colleague to add something to your questions. His comments are under "Tobias." You will find my answers under "Clayton" at each of your questions, "Clayton" Cone Greetings Dr.Cone! Since some months ago I am attempting something as stupid as a beer fermentation simulation model and I've many questions that I would love to have your and everybody elses opinion on. I can't choose which are most important questions so I will just list them all. I don't expect to get answers to all of them and I don't even know to what extent all questions are well defined. But in any case all ideas and input on some of them from you would be very appreciated! The background of the question is a quest to find an algorithm that will simulate yeast and the most relevant parts in fermentation, and as accurate as possible predict the CO2 production with time. Related to yeasts sugar utilization that may be of interest for stuck fermentations, in a wort consisting of mono, di and trisaccharides, I've read that the simplest sugars are the first to be transported into the cell and digested and each sugar needs a specific enzyme in order to be broken down to monosaccharides. If the transport proteins are blocked or if for some reason the relevant enzyme to break down the sugar is deactived the fermentation may get stuck? My questions are, (sugar utiliztion) 1) what basic variables could possibly determine the synthesis and activity of these enzymes, as well as the activity of the transport proteins? Clayton: STRESS. Extended period in cold storage before re-pitching. Inadequate temperature during cold storage. Poor temperature control during fermentation. Nitrogen starvation. Excessive repitching. Vitamin, mineral and oxygen deficiencies. Glucose/maltose out of balance. Glucose represses the maltase activity until the glucose is below about 0.4%. High levels of glucose adjunct can cause a problem special attention is given to the fermentation. 2) What are the possible mechanism for jammng or blocking a transporter or inhibiting an enzyme (like maltotriase) that would in turn cause a stuck fermentation? Clayton: All of the replies to question 1). If the yeast is stressed for any of the above reasons, often times it can't quite finish the job of attacking the last bit of sugar which happens to be Maltotriose. 3) Also, when does the synthesis of these enzymes occur (ie. maltase, maltotriase, etc)? Does it occur upon request when a new type of sugar is arriving, or is it synthesised during budding or maturation so it only has to activate? Or are they always active? Clayton: I believe that the enzymes are produced on demand. 4) Also "how sequenced" is uptake of the sugarprofile? Is there an overlap in the mono -> di, and di -> tri transitions, or is there possibly a tiny delay or dip in energyproduction for that transition? Clayton: There is no delay between the glucose and sucrose uptake. The Maltose fermentation kicks in when there is <0.4% glucose. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003 Return to table of contents
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