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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  More haze ("-S")
  Scale in Carboy (rickdude02)
  Bleach cleaning copper, Dangerous? ("Sven Pfitt")
  Re: My First Brew (Jeff Renner)
  re: Fly (continuous) versus Batch Sparging ("the Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty")
  beer and kids ("Braam Greyling")
  Pints...quarts ("Mike Sharp")
  RE: How to get the correct volume and Sp. Gr.  batch sparge ("Leonard, Phil")
  Beer haze ("Chad Stevens")
  CO2 Levels (Colin Kaminski)
  Re: Ranco Thermistor? ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  Fermentation & OJ ("Steve Laycock")


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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:00:21 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: More haze

 Correction ....

>The authors appear to have
>incubated unsupported barley enzymes on a specific substrate (like Hordein)

I meant to write 'UNSEPARATED barley enzymes'.

==========

Petr asks about his single decoction schedule & haze proteolysis.

Yes, the brief mash-in 5'  at 39C a and the decoction rise to 67+C will allow
some proteolysis and I'd expect this is near at the upper bound of what a
continental pils malt will take before going limp.   I expect your beer
would suffer in quality if you made that a 20-30 minute rest  at 39C.  Yes this
procedure will reduce haze potential in general..

The decoction boil causes break formation so there should be less break
formation and resultant IBU loss in the sweet wort boil.   I can't explain
why your decocted beers have less hop bitterness.  Note that IBU measurement
and extraction is always quite variable.  The AA% numbers printed on a
package of hops are an interesting historical note - given the rate of
humulone loss in hops.  Lagered beers lose a good bit of phenolic rough
flavors and some IBUs in the weeks of lager storage.

It's just my opinion, but I expect you'd get more of that subtle 'decoction
flavor' if you boiled the thick decoction longer.  Total 20' boil is short
compared to a double or triple decoction schedule and so extending the
single decoct boil time to 40-60 min  may allow for more Maillard reaction
product formation [or else add some of melanoidin malt and skip the messy
decoction].

 -S






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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:02:37 -0400 (GMT)
From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net
Subject: Scale in Carboy

Jim asks about what seems to be a lime buildup in his carboy.

It certainly could be a mineral scale, but unless you're in a very
hard water area it's probably a protein haze.  That appears a 
little brownish or beige.  What I would do (and I do have a little
experience in such matters<g>) is first give it a soak for an 
hour or so with a quality alkaline cleaner.  I, of course, use
Straight-A because I make the stuff.  For a stiff soak that pre-
cludes scrubbing, use about 3/4 cup for a 5-gallon carboy.  If you
want to use PBW, you could do the same (but it might take a little
bit of a longer time for the soak<g>).  If you use B-Brite, Beer
Brite, or any of those other "off-brands" of cleanser, use at least a cup.

Then dump and rinse thoroughly.  Even if it is a mineral scale, 
you should do this because protein films are a bit more resistant
to acid cleaners than alkaline ones.  A light scale will actually
come of with just white vinegar (undiluted).  For a heavier scale
you could use Lime-Away.  (I'm assuming you're talking about the
EcoLab product.)  Use a dilution of 1 cup per 5-gallons and let
it soak for another hour.  You could do the same thing with 
phosphoric acid, of course-- but I don't know if your brew store
carries that.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.


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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:25:35 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bleach cleaning copper, Dangerous?

I ran across this the other day, and was wondering about it. I've never 
cleaned my CFC with bleach, but was wondering about the effects of bleach on 
copper.

"What JBM is trying to say is that if you use any bleach type agent to clean 
your copper, you will ruin your copper, and it will become soluble and 
dangerous levels of copper may end up present in your wort, which could 
cause kidney failure, and you might die."

Has anyone ever heard of this? Since we use copper in our brewing systems I 
would have thought I would have read it somewhere in all the brewing books I 
have, but can't find reference to it at all.


Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:49:33 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: My First Brew

Kevin Wagner <kevin.wagner at watchmark.com> has further comments on his 
first brew:

>I took 12 bottles to a party over the weekend for a few opinions. In
>general, people commented on how mild it was, then asked for another!
>Very positive responses.
>
>Which is funny, because when I drink it, there's something strange about
>it that I can't quite put my finger on.

I am assuming that you are familiar with the normal flavor profile of 
a German weizenbier?  It has clove and banana flavors, and could be 
categorized as "something strange" by someone not familiar with it.

On the other hand, 1.040  (it's normal to use three figures after the 
decimal point, even if the last one is a zero) is 20-25% lower in 
gravity than a typical German Weizenbier.

>The kit was assembled by my local home brew shop
>(http://www.cellar-homebrew.com) - 'Wheat Beer' with an Wyeast German
>Ale XL-Smack pack. I let the pack swell to about double it's original
>size and poured it directly into the primary.

Those packs are supposed to be suitable for direct pitching into five 
gallons, so you didn't underpitch by huge amounts.  You should have 
aerated the wort fully to encourage the yeast.

You haven't told us where you are, but since you say that the Cellar 
Homebrew shop is local, I guess you must be in Seattle.  My further 
advice is to get involved with a local club.  Experienced brewers 
will be glad to taste your beer and make a more informed suggestion 
than I can 2000 miles away.  There are lots of other benefits to 
being in a local club as well.

Good luck in improving your beer, but it sounds like you've done 
pretty well for a first batch.

I am leaving for two weeks in England to drink real ale, so I will be 
out of the loop for a while.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:50:32 -0500
From: "the Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Fly (continuous) versus Batch Sparging 

> Ok, so I might be wrong here but the last time I checked I thought that a
> couple (2) pints was equal to a quart.  I'm suspecting that you got some unit
> confused and either meant to say either "after a couple cups ... might do a
> quart" or "after a couple pints ... might do a half gallon.

I meant ... um ... METRIC pints, yeah, that's the ticket. METRIC
pints.

Should have read : "a couple of cups, or a quart if I'm feeling
patient. Or a couple of pints if I'm feeling stupid."

Cheers -- tafkaks

====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:50:48 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: beer and kids

Hi all,

Some time ago there were a few discussions about beer and kids. 

Have a look at this link:

http://www.draymans.com/Articles/kids.php     

Regards

braam




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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:25:36 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pints...quarts

From: "the Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
>However, I find this step only takes me a few minutes at most, since
>with my current lauter system I get (crystal) clear runnings after a
>couple of pints (I might do a quart if I'm feeling patient, but it
>really isn't necessary.)

John Schnupp comments:
"Ok, so I might be wrong here but the last time I checked I thought that a
couple (2) pints was equal to a quart.  "

Hmmm....perhaps he meant he got clear runnings after *drinking* a couple o' 
pints?  ;^)

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:43:29 -0500
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE: How to get the correct volume and Sp. Gr.  batch sparge

Several have asked about the calculations for batch sparging.
I've always used the one listed on this website:

http://www.bayareamashers.org/BatchSparging.htm

Philip
[612 251.4 AR] Overland Park, KS


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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:15:25 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Beer haze

Steve et al.,

The Budmillercoors protein haze problems were relayed to me by a long time
friend who works at the AB plant in Van Nuys.  He cited increased hordein
levels from new malt cultivars passing to the wort as the primary problem
and spoke as thought the problem is fairly pervasive.  I know this is
anecdotal, but it's the best I've got.  Yes the paper I cited was a poor
pick, but I ain't got nothin' better.

Just to further obfuscate as Mr. Palmer would say, take a look at:

www.regional.org.au/au/abts/1999/jones.htm

Using malt made in a typical American malting and kilning regime, then
mashed in a typical American commercial double mash process (the cooker mash
with adjuncts sits at 113 for 10 min then ramps up to boil within 45 min
while the main mash sits at 104 for 60 min) the soluble protein found in the
wort was 43% from the preformed barley, 32% from the malting process, and
25% released during the mash.  Now this schedule is a bit different from
what we as home brewers typically use but I use this as an illustration of
the fact that 1) all of the protein that finds its' way into the wort is not
from the malting process and 2) the generally accepted idea that proteolytic
activity is minimal during the mashing process because the proteases are
denatured during the modern kilning process is incorrect.

So if in the neighborhood of 25% of the soluble protein found in your wort
is solubilized during the mash, why not tailor that solubilization to a
profile that is beneficial to clarity and head retention?  And by no means
am I suggesting 30 min at 122 to make an English MIld or Pete's Wicked
clone.  Just dip "into the protein range" for a few minutes if using any
adjuncts, that's all.

Chad Stevens
San Diego



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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:37:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Colin Kaminski <colinholo at yahoo.com>
Subject: CO2 Levels

Is there a cheap way to measure the CO2 levels of a
beer? I don't really want to purchase a Zahm-Nagel but
would like to get a better handle on the CO2 levels of
my force carbonated beers. 

Thank you for any help,

Colin Kaminski




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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:28:32 -0400
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ranco Thermistor?

I have spare unused Ranco Thermistor sensors.  If interested, please contact
me directly.

Reif Hammond




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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:06:23 -0700
From: "Steve Laycock" <slaycock at discoverynet.com>
Subject: Fermentation & OJ

I have a "hard orange drink" that I am in the process of fermenting.
After a primary fermentation  of:
 2.5# DME (2# Muntons, .5# Laaglander),
 2# Honey,
2# Corn Sugar
 in 5.5 gal batch energized by 2 hydrated packets of Muntons? Dry Yeast (ale
yeast)...

I then transferred 1/2 of the wort on 3 cans of lemonade concentrate and the
other half onto 1/2 gal (just under) of "Tropicana no pulp orange juice (not
frozen concentrate).

What I am observing is a very very slow ferment in the orange drink.  The
lemonade half is fermenting well.  Ferment temp is a bit high now  at 73.5F.

The orange container "claims" that there is no preservatives or additives.
I'm wondering if that is correct, and if the orange itself is inhibiting the
fermentation due to some lack of nutrients or too much acid?

 I transferred from primary onto the "juices"   4 days ago, and everything
smells just fine.

 Any ideas would be interesting.

Thanks,
Steve
Highwater Brew Haus
Pleasant Hill Mo.




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