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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Better Bottle ("Kenneth Peters")
  Re: Color in no-sparge / batch sparge recipes (Christopher Swingley)
  I don't like SPAM...changes are working (Marc Sedam)
  Fullers Vintage Ale ("Greg R")
  Beer for Beer Tasting Party! ("Don Scholl")
  Tamarindo (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Spent Grain Bread ("Harlan Nilsen")
  beer and kids (Alan McKay)
  disposing of spent grain in the city (Alan McKay)
  re-using yeast (darrell.leavitt)
  er: Color in no-sparge / batch sparge recipes ("-S")
  Food grade silicone ("Parker Dutro")
  Sparging ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: Water coolers ("Mike Sharp")
  Building Tap Handles (Bob Pelletier)
  KROC World Brewers Forum (KROC World Brewers Forum)
  er: uisge beatha ("-S")


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:19:30 -0500
From: "Kenneth Peters" <kpeters6 at cox.net>
Subject: Better Bottle

These sound very tempting, anyone using them or have any thought? Sounds like
the manufacturer has overcome the traditional problems associated with plastic
bottles - or have they? Of course their web site
(http://www.better-bottle.com/faq.html)
presents their products in the best possible light, I can understand that. But
have they really solved the taste and permeability problems? What say the
experts? Thanks, Ken



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:18:42 -0800
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: Color in no-sparge / batch sparge recipes

Greetings,

I think there's a little confusion in the terms I used in my posting 
about color and no-sparge / batch sparging.  I understand these two 
sparging methods are different from one another, but I'm not sure if 
they're what Michael says -- at least not how I've practiced them.

* Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com> [2003-Sep-09 15:21 AKDT]:
> Batch sparge involves either:
> 
> a) Taking the first runnings, and then subsequently adding a single
> large charge of water to finish the sparge.
> 
> b) Simply adding a single large charge of sparge water water.

I believe that what I've read suggests that batch sparging is a) and 
no-sparging is b).  When the size of my lauter tun permits, I do a 
no-sparge mash, which means I mix grain and hot water at the proper 
ratio and temperature for a normal mash (0.9 - 1.3 quarts / pound).  
After the mash has completed, I add a single dose of enough "sparge" 
water to the tun such that when it is drained, I'll wind up with my boil 
volume.  I estimate this as

    boil volume (quarts) + [0.52 * grain (pounds)]

I guess I'm technically "sparging", so I'm not sure where the no-sparge 
terminology came from.

Batch sparging is the same process but you add the bulk sparge water in 
two additions, the first is (boil volume / 2 + [0.52 * grain[) and the 
second is (boil volume / 2).

Maybe these should be termed, one-dose and two-dose sparging?  Or 
monosparge, duosparge?

> Option a) should not affect your efficiency at all. Option b) will
> probably only affect it minutely assuming you take the same amount of
> runnings you would have taken fly sparging.

I don't think this is correct.  With fly sparging, you are continuously 
"washing" the grains of their sugars (and colors?) with fresh water.  
The gravity of the runnings starts very high, and decreases as the 
sugars are removed.

No-sparge and batch sparges are less efficient because the sparge water 
comes to equilibrium with the sugars in the grain and then you drain off 
the mixture (I'm a computer scientist / ecologist, so this may not be a 
very scientific description. . .).  You won't get all of the sugars this 
way because you're not continuously adding fresh water that has the 
capacity to absorb and carry additional sugars not removed earlier in 
the sparging.  My efficiency with fly sparging is about 75%, and my 
efficiencies with no-sparge and batch sparge recipes have ranged from 57 
 - 62% (n=4).

- ----------------

On the subject of my question:

* Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> [2003-Sep-09 03:46 AKDT]:
> In my humble opinion, the argument that the color of a beer is not 
> affected by the difference in efficiency of extraction between sparge 
> systems is nonsense. The color components from the grains and the 
> sugars formed in the mash are dissolved in the wort and are thoroughly 
> dispersed throughout the entire volume of the wort if either (1) the 
> colorful grains are mixed in reasonably well with the other grains in 
> the grist or (2) there was some stirring or recirculation of the wort 
> before running it off. Of course, this should always be the case. The 
> "efficiency of extraction" at that point is now a function of 
> separating that colorful, sugary liquid away from the particulate 
> matter in the grist.

This is what I would have suspected too.  I would also guess that the 
color components from the grain may be "more extractable" than the 
sugars using various sparging methods, but I would agree with Fred that 
it does seem like the efficiency of your mashing / sparging procedures 
should affect color in similar proportions as sugar.  So if the 
efficiency of extracting sugars is 75%, perhaps the "color efficiency" 
is 85% or something slightly higher.

But the reason I bring it up, is that the references I've read (which 
isn't all that many, admittedly) for predicting color don't include 
efficiency in their equations.  The Zymurgy article (26(5): 20-25) 
includes "Efficiency of mashing" in the "Stuff You Can't Predict" 
section at the end of the article.  "Efficiency of mashing" certainly 
*is* something you can predict, at least when it comes to the sugars, 
because we can measure this.  So why not use the extraction efficiency 
that we can calculate as a factor for predicting color?

I guess I'm really suggesting that someone include extraction efficiency 
in their model the next time they're experimenting with predicting the 
color of a brew.  I believe that it's an important variable, based on my 
own brewing.  Unfortunately, it's pretty hard for a home brewer to 
objectively evaluate color results without equipment that most of us 
don't own (spectrophotometer / Lovibond comparison standards / etc.).

Thanks for the comments!

Chris
- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:55:33 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: I don't like SPAM...changes are working

As a data point...in the few days that Pat made the change to "mask" the 
HBD email addresses my junk email content has dropped by at least 50%. 
 I always wondered how I got so much junk in my inbox...now I know.

Thanks for making the change.  It's already made a real difference.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:16:29 -0500
From: "Greg R" <gmrbrewer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fullers Vintage Ale

Hi all,

My brother-in-law gave me a boxed bottle of Fullers Vintage Ale (1999).  The 
label says the bottle can be stored for years.  Is it a barley wine?  Old 
ale?  I'm wondering if, at four years of age, it might already be past its 
prime, and if I should drink it now.  Or is this worth saving for a while 
longer?

Cheers,

Greg in Chicago



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:38:04 -0400
From: "Don Scholl" <dws at engineeringdimensions.com>
Subject: Beer for Beer Tasting Party!

Good morning! My wife and I are throwing a beer tasting party for our
friends at the end of February 2004. I will brew all beers being served.
What I need from everyone are ideas of 4-5 types of beer to serve and what
food and/or dessert to serve with them.

Don Scholl
Twin Lake, Michigan
(140.9, 302.4)Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:32:19 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: Tamarindo





<raj_apte at yahoo.com>  asks about Tamarind in beer.  I have not made beer
with it, but I have made mead with a large can of Tamarindo Juice, and
honey with champagne yeast...  It was a real hit....

 ..Darrell



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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:48:43 -0500
From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com>
Subject: Spent Grain Bread

I had so many requests privately that I decided I would put this recipe on
the HBD.  It is for a 1.5 lb. loaf made in a bread machine but I have known
some to use this recipe and make it in the usual manual way.  I do not know
what happens to the husks but they seem to virtually disappear.  The fiber
would be in the loaf someplace.  If you use more dark roasted grains the
bread will turn out somewhat darker and have a somewhat heavier flavor.  We
like it best made from grains from a pale ale or some of the lighter colored
beers.  We serve it many times at club happenings such as gang brews, Big
Brew and the like.  It takes a lot of loaves as the beer hogs are also bread
hogs.

SPENT GRAIN BREAD    1.5 LB. LOAF

3/4   Cup 80 degree water
 .5     Tbsp. Honey
1      Tbsp. Vegetable Oil
 .5     Cup Wet Spent Grain  (Wet is how they come out of the mash)
 .5     Cup Bread Machine Flour or Bread flour
1      Tsp. Salt
2      Tsp. Active Dry Yeast  (I use a little bit more so the loaf rises
higher and lighter)
1      Tbsp. Wheat Gluten  (optional but suggested)

If using a bread machine, add the ingredients in the order listed.

I have known some that have increased this recipe to make more loaves using
the non-machine method.

Use the same settings on your bread machine that you use to bake white
bread.

If you have dried your spent grain modify the recipe as follows:
1/3 Cup Dry Spent Grains
1    Cup Warm Water
The rest of the recipe is the same.

Hint:  When I brew I measure out the grain and put .5 Cup in small baggies,
seal and keep in the freezer until ready to use.

Harlan Nilsen
32nd Street Brewery




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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:24:27 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: beer and kids

I missed this thread first time around a few weeks (months?) ago.
A buddy told me that here in Ontario, Canada, it is perfectly legal
to give your kids alcohol in your own home.  Although the legal
drinking age is 19.  I'm not sure if my buddy is right but his wife
is a lawyer so I tend to believe him.

I plan to bring my kids up responsibly drinking alcohol.  Better for
me to teach them how to deal with it responsibly, than to have the
kids at school teach them how to deal with it irresponsibly, as
I myself learned at a very young age.


- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:16:31 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: disposing of spent grain in the city

I live in the city and have a small yard so I compost.

A buddy of mine in an apartment used to flush it all.  You have
to do it a few cups at a time but it works and is not harmful
to your sewer system. YMMV.

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:44:38 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: re-using yeast


I have been re-using my yeast for the last several years,...not washing, 
but just re-using the yeast cake by pitching a new batch on the older 
after transferring it into secondary.  Generally I think that I have 
gotten good redults, ie healty starts, higher gravity (if wanted) with 
subsequent batches, etc.   However, this last time that I did so I only 
waited 6 days (with a Trappist yeast).  The yeast was still working, 
although not real vigorously.  Consequently the lag time was about 1-2 
hours at the most!

I like the short lag time, but wonder what others think about the optimal 
time to transfer when re-using.  And, I suppose that this differs 
depending upon the yeast used?

 ..Darrell



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 01:57:45 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: er: Color in no-sparge / batch sparge recipes

Christopher Swingley says,

>It is my impression from what I've read on the subject
>(including the article in the recent Zymurgy) that color isn't affected
>by efficiency

I can't imagine exactly how to interpret that statement numerically.   I
*suspect* that statement above means that if you sparge and collect N
gallons of wort from X lbs of a particular grist that your color won't vary
widely despite efficiency differences.  That is true since most of the color
is concentrated in the first runnings and the latter runnings are diluting
the coloration with varying shades of far paler lautered runoff.

A few years ago I made a pair of O'fest beers - one from a no-sparge and
another from the first batch sparge.  I then diluted the no-sparge SG as the
1st batch sparge wort.   The no-sparge first runnings were darker than the
1st batch sparge even after dilution to the same SG.  The difference wasn't
subtle.  My conclusion is that the colored matter (at least from Munich
malt) appears disproportionately in the first runnings, and less so in the
lautered wort.  The proportion of 'color' in the early runnings is even
greater than the relative proportion of extract in these early runnings !
There is some decent evidence that the malt flavor is also more concentrated
in the first running than is extract.

>Meaning, for example, that if your efficiency with fly sparging is 75%
>and it's 60% with batch sparging, you can't simply increase each grain
>by 25% because you'll wind up with too much color from the darker
>grains.

Your point is valid  ... if you use 'no-sparge' you might net half of your
normal extract efficiency(37% vs 75%), but I'm certain you'd get more than
half of the color extraction (but not 100%).  You could replace some of the
recipe malts with pale malt to decrease the color ... but then what is
happening to the flavor profile ?

If we assume that color and flavor are comparably concentrated in the first
runnings then you are stuck with the proposition at any attempt to concentra
te the flavor per unit extract  by 'undersparging' or no-sparging will
unavoidably result in a darker beer. !

[[There is an interesting open question about which is most concentrated in
the first runnings - flavor or color.  There are some reasons to *SUSPECT*
that not all flavors follow the same extraction pattern.   Some of the
malty-toasty flavors are concentrated at the surface of the malt, while
roast flavors and crystal flavors may be more distributed within the grain
and *perhaps* extract slower and more evenly ... like fermentable extract.]]

The point is that a change to the brewing process, like undersparging,
seldom impacts only one beer parameter.  It would be nice if we have
independent control of color, flavor, extract concentration etc ... but we
don't.  You change one and the others inevitably change.  You'll need to
experiment with the batch or undersparging methods and see if you can
produce desirable results within the interdependent constraints.

As long as I'm on an opinion rant ... Also let's not be slaves to fashion.
If you make your best tasting pseudo-pils with no-sparge but the color is
several notches darker than the bohemian  ideal - then scr*w the style
guidelines.  If a beer tastes great and looks great yet doesn't meet some
abstract guideline ... where is the fault ?  Style classifications are a
useful means of separating beers into groups of comparables, but a style is
not intended to be an end in itself.

 -S






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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:25:05 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Food grade silicone

Jules asks about food grade silicone:

Because the silicone will be in contact with an acidic mash in the 150f
temperature range, it is important to know the parameters of the
product.  I would imagine that an aquarium sealant safe for the delicate
environment of fish would be safe for us, if it were just being used
with tepid water.  Hot, sweet wort is a different story.  DAP makes a
FDA approved food safe silicone sealant tolerant of up to 450 degrees
(when cured and washed) and I have used it with moderate success.  The
problem I encountered was that some bits and chunks of the sealant broke
off and ended up in my boil kettle!  Now, because its food safe and can
withstand boiling temps I "knew" the beer would be ok, but I would
rather not have particles of chemical sealant floating around in my
pre-beer.  There are a few sites that demonstrate how to build a
watertight bulkhead fitting that would be better for the tun, or you
could do what I did for my first six all grain batches.  Get a rubber
stopper at your local homebrew shop to fit the hole in your tun (I had
to drill a bigger hole to allow for a stopper big enough to handle my
manifold tubing)  Then make sure the hole in the rubber stopper is big
enough for the manifold outlet tube.  I would always use warm water to
wet the stopper and copper tubing, in essence lubricating it and
allowing for a nice, snug fit.  Worked perfectly until I decide to
convert some kettles.

Parker Dutro
Portland, OR

"To every man, in his acquaintance with a new art, there comes a moment
when that which before was meaningless first lifts, as it were, one
corner of the curtain that hides its mystery, and reveals, in a burst of
delight which later and fuller understanding can hardly ever equal, one
glimpse of the indefinite possibilities within."  C.  S.  Lewis






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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:25:05 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Sparging

Eric asks about sparging:

Eric, 
Hey man, when I first started all grain brewing I was as bewildered as I
had ever been.  An invaluable resource for me was John Palmers online
book, HOW TO BREW.  I don't have the link saved anymore and am too lazy
to find it for you, but it will be really simple to find.  Do a google
with "how to brew John Palmer" you will probably end up with 47 links.
If you can get to his book, scroll down or right to find HOME and start
from there.  John is a nice guy with a super user friendly online book
that allowed me to move forward leaps and bounds in my brewing craft.
He is also a member of this digest, and you may see a post or two from
him on occasion.  In an attempt to answer your question, sparing is the
process of rinsing the grain of as mush sweet, sugary stuff as possible
without "over rinsing".  While a dude could accomplish this in many
ways, with your setup, the easiest way, I believe, would be to drain
your wort out, add a measured amount of heated water (160-170) stir, let
settle, and drain again.  Both drain times you should collect in the
kettle you will be boiling in, and a typical goal for pre-boil volume is
6.5 gallons.  This process is referred to as batch sparging, which you
can read about in John's book.  The are other methods, continuous or fly
sparging, no sparge mashing...  you should check out How to Brew.
Good luck.  This is where the real fun starts!

Parker Dutro
P-town

"To every man, in his acquaintance with a new art, there comes a moment
when that which before was meaningless first lifts, as it were, one
corner of the curtain that hides its mystery, and reveals, in a burst of
delight which later and fuller understanding can hardly ever equal, one
glimpse of the indefinite possibilities within."  C.  S.  Lewis






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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:05:50 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Water coolers

Chet Nunan says he has a water cooler

"Think it could be converted to a wort chiller?"

Maybe, but what I'd do is make it into a glycol chiller.  Then you can use 
it to keep your fermenters very closely contolled, especially if your circ 
loop has a heater in it.  If it's too warm, it chills, if it's too cold, the 
solenoids switch and heated water warms it.  I have a small glycol chiller 
(used by bars for keeping long runs of beer lines chilled).  Very handy.  
The heat removed from 5 or 10 gallons of wort is way more than your little 
chiller will be able to handle, but you can store up some of that cold by 
chilling an insulated water cooler (the round kind) filled with a 
water/propylene glycol mix.  You then circulate the glycol around as needed.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:39:50 -0400
From: Bob Pelletier <rp at ihrsa.org>
Subject: Building Tap Handles

Anybody have any good instructions? 



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:48:00 -0600
From: KROC World Brewers Forum <WBF at kroc.org>
Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum

The Keg Ran Out Club will be "Taking the Beer World by Storm" at the 
"9th Annual KROC World Brewers Forum."

The Keg Ran Out Club in association with the American Homebrewers 
Association, the BIRKO Corporation, White Labs, Beer at Home, Pete's 
Wicked Ale, Spoetzl Brewery, BridgePort Ales, the Boulder Beer Store, 
and The Great American Beer Festival, are planning for our biggest 
event ever.

   Michael Jackson
      Internationally renowned beer author, traveler, and leading
      expert on all things beer.

   Ken Schramm
      Author of the "The Compleat Meadmaker: Home Production of Honey
      Wine from Your First Batch to Award-Winning Fruit and Herb
      Variations."

   James McCrorie
      Beer writer, historian, and member of the Durden Park Beer
      Circle.


Food, homebrew, and commercial beer will be served.  Door prizes 
will be given away and our biggest raffle ever with a portion of 
the proceeds given to the American Red Cross.  You DO NOT want to 
miss this event!


What:   KROC World Brewers Forum
When:   Thursday, September 25th, 8pm-midnight
Where:  Embassy Suites, 1881 Curtis Street, 303-297-8888
Info:   http://KROC.org
Cost:   Free
RSVP:   WBF at kroc.org or 720-984-4390


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:07:49 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: er: uisge beatha

Robert Marshall notes,

>First off, my use of Woski was a phonetic spelling,
>and nothing was intended to suggest Polish, if that's
>what you really think I was doing.

Don't be thick as well as obstinant Robert. No one thinks it's Polish.   My
point remains that it is NOT a credible phonetic spelling. It is NOT
pronounced anything like "Woski".

>My reference was that of Rick Steve's
>"Travels in Europe,"

Then you and Mr.Steves both need a better reference.

The suggested pronunciations vary but none includes
a leading "W' sound, nor anything that I might imagine
sounds like "wos".  Of course there are no "WOS"
words in English so your pronunciation guide is
entirely fictitious.

A very nice mp3 pronunciation of several variant Gaelic
language terms for 'water of life' appears at
http://www.adf.org/rituals/celtic/language/

A BBC site suggests
> Uisge Beatha [...] . Pronounced ishker-vahr.

Here is a cite with a .wav file.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/U0158000.html

SMWS.com suggests .... Ooshgy-bay].

elsewhere in the web we see ...
>oosh ga bay'ha
>oosa+e bea+e
>use-kay-bah
>OOS-ke BEY-ha

=========

>here is a
>private response I received:
 ...
>> the Uisce (pronounced something like "ooisc").

"uisce" is the Irish Gaelic variant spelling while ("uisge" the Scottish).
The unknown writer provides a reasonable initial  pronunciation , but the
final vowel sound is missing in this interpretation yet present in all
others.  The term whisky was reputedly introduced into English in the 18th
century via Ireland, and tho' there are numerous terms along that
transition, there is no "woski" even on the English side of the track.

 -S




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---