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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  The making of Barleywine (Bill Tobler)
  Barleywine question again (Bill Tobler)
  steam-rolled barley (Marc Sedam)
  getting soda smell out of kegs (Marc Sedam)
  Re:Nitrogen and hops don't mix (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Starter wort gravity revisited (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  Sugar in Secondary? ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Re: Re: Peppers in beer ("Gregory D. Morris")
  Copper and PBW - long term contact (Budris)
  RE: convoluted copper cfwc ("Houseman, David L")
  re-using yeast (secondary/ or primary)? (darrell.leavitt)
  Motorizing a Mill (DC or AC motor) (tTB\)" <jeff@truthbrew.com>
  Re: The making of Barleywine ("-S")
  MCAB VI Announcement ("Louis Bonham")


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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:31:55 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: The making of Barleywine

Hi all,
   I'm going to make my first Barleywine next week, and am looking for a few
tips on fermenting it out.  It's going to be 5 gallons of a 1.100 OG beer.
I made a 5 gallon batch of Cream Ale Saturday so I would have plenty of
yeast next week to pitch on.  I use O2 to aerate with.

Yesterday, when talking about starters, our resident -S said "...Incremental
additions of concentrated wort is exactly how the very high alcohol beers
are made using normal brewing yeast - it causes less stress but still too
much to accept in a starter."

   This sounds like a good idea.  I could ferment the first 3 gallons of
wort, then add a gallon at a time every 2 or 3 days.  To keep the wort clean
and bug free I could sterilize the wort in a my pressure cooker for 20-40
minutes in gallon jugs just after the boil, and just let them sit in the
pressure cooker till needed.  Cooking the wort at that high temp will help
darken and caramelize the wort a little, just what you would want for a
Barleywine.  Thanks in advance, and I'm open to any and all suggestions,
whether I follow them or not.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:39:11 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Barleywine question again

Forget to ask, I wonder if the 2 gallons of wort added later should be
aerated with O2 before adding to the main beer? Me thinks not.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:52:37 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: steam-rolled barley

Steam-rolled barley refers to the process of barley kernels (sans husk) 
that have been pressed through two metal rollers heated with steam.  The 
process quickly gelatinizes the starch in the barley kernel without 
pulverizing it.  In doing so, any enzymes are destroyed.

Simply put, this is the barley equivalent of "quick oats".  It's used in 
stouts and other beers to (supposedly) improve head retention.

Cheers!
marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:55:54 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: getting soda smell out of kegs

Hey all,

I happened upon two cornies that still held some soda syrup being 
recycled.  After my happy "free keg" jig I took them home, rinsed, 
replaced all the o-rings, rinsed with boiling water, and filled with 
more boiling water + 1/2 c. of baking soda, shook, left overnight, and 
rinsed again.  Still smells vaguely like soda.

Any thoughts on how to best get this smell out of the kegs?  My newest 
pilsner will thank you.

Thanks.
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/





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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:43:29 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Re:Nitrogen and hops don't mix


Steve ("-S") notes reports that have shown that beer kept under nitrogen
resulted in degraded hop character.
Very interesting.
I wonder if this could apply to hops stored in nitrogen-flushed bags as
well?





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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:56:15 -0500
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Starter wort gravity revisited


>If you intent to grow yeast with some degree of respiration (which is very
>efficient and can produce high quality yeast) then glucose repression is bad
>news.  If you just intend to let your starter ferment out anaerobically -
>it's much less of an issue *BUT* the fact is that yeast do not like the
>stress of high gravity fermentation.  Ideally yeast prefer growth on
><10P(<1.040SG) starter wort.   Yeast grown on 15P(1.060SG) or higher wort
>should be discarded - the hi-gravity stress causes performance problems.  It
>is an error to think that growing yeast in a high gravity starter prepares
>then to thrive in a hi-gravity fermenter.  It just stresses them into worse
>performance when pitched.

This has implications for people trying to reuse the yeast cake from a 
previous fermentation.  If I'm just dumping the new wort onto the old 
yeast, it sounds like I need to make sure the previous beers were all under 
1.060 (and preferably under 1.040).  Is this a reasonable 
interpretation?  What can I do to help out the yeast in a situation like 
this? (add nutrients?  wash the yeast and use it to create a new starter?)


Travis Dahl
[1.8, 98.3] Apparent Rennerian
A.K.A. A2, MI 




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:40:03 -0800
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Sugar in Secondary?

Greetings all...I have been looking into techniques for brewing high-gravity
belgian strong ales, and have found a number of references to adding sugars
at some point after primary fermentation commences (such as in the
secondary).  I was hoping that someone might be able to comment on a) why
this would be preferable to adding the sugar in the main wort boil and
fermenting it during primary fermentation, which is my usual practice, and
b) how to go about this without significantly diluting out your fermenting
wort.  Any input appreciated,

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:42:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gregory D. Morris" <gmorris at literati.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Peppers in beer

Dan McFeeley wrote:
Result?  He loved it.  Lapped up every bit.
 ...
To keep this beer related, yes the dog loves beer.
 ...

I've noticed the same thing about some dogs.  My wife's old dog would eat
wasabe like it was candy...
Maybe its time to brew a pepper beer (just for the dog, I can't drink that
stuff ;)

And my dog goes nuts when I open a beer (she's stolen more than one bottle
from the coffee table.)  However, my dog is a little picky about her
beer...  For instance, the fermentation stuck on a stout I made, and I'm
pretty sure it was infected.  I let my dog try it, and she wouldn't have
anything to do with it.  Yet when I opened a bottle of a spectacular red
ale, she wouldn't leave me alone.  I ended up giving her a little splash,
and she just went wild... she wouldn't leave me along until she got some
more.

She also loves eating the spent grains (although my wife says she can't
anymore because... well, let your dog eat a big pile of spent grains and
find out ;)

- --
Gregory Morris
Web Developer
Literati
(304) 296-8026 ext.139
gmorris at literati.com






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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:25:13 -0500
From: Budris <budris at optonline.net>
Subject: Copper and PBW - long term contact

Does anyone know if there are problems associated with leaving copper in
contact with PBW for any length of time? I have a copper counter-flow
chiller and I am thinking of storing it filled with PBW rather than empty or
with sanitizer in it.

 -Brian




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:05:13 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: convoluted copper cfwc

Randy,

I have the St. Pat's convoluted copper counter flow wort chiller.  Other
sources seem to have almost identical units from the descriptions I've seen
posted.  The St. Pat's chiller I have works great.  The larger diameter
(than a homemade unit I had previously) empties my kettle faster.  I'm still
getting within a few degrees of the inlet water temperature so the
convolutions work well.  The convolutions are not in the wort line, they are
in the space between the wort line and the outer copper tube.  The cold
water is forced to swirl around these convolutions giving better heat
transfer.   I've found no problem cleaning the unit.  During the boil I pass
5 gallons of boiling water through the chiller.  After use, I do the same
thing.  I use partially drilled rubber stoppers as caps on the ends to keep
insects, dust, etc. out.  No issues or problems with the chiller after a
couple years of use.

Dave Houseman




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:16:53 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: re-using yeast (secondary/ or primary)?

I have been re-using my yeast,...ususally from the primary,..for 3 times, 
and on occasion, for 4 times and have had pretty good results.  I find 
that if I can brew again with the yeast in the primary,...just before it 
craps out,...that it takes off real quickly (short lag time) and I suppose 
that this is good...

A while back someone said that they prefer to use the yeast from the 
secondary in that 1) it had less trub, and 2) it was 'stronger' or more 
healthy in that it was the yeast that had survived...

Any thoughts on this issue?  I am going to try make a Saison, re-using 
yeast that has only been used once before...but is the small cake on the 
bottom of a Pale Saison from the secondary...

I have not washed yeast yet,..but perhaps should learn that as well....

Happy Brewing!

 ..Darrell






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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:18:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jeff Halvorson \(tTB\)" <jeff at truthbrew.com>
Subject: Motorizing a Mill (DC or AC motor)

I would like to motorize my Crankandstein CGM-2A grain mill.  What are my best
options?

I have read the excellent article by Mike Dixon on using a 1/8 HP motor and
v-belt to rig up a pulley system
(http://hbd.org/carboy/motorizing_a_malt_mill.htm).  While this method seems
decent, I thought I would see if anyone else had other suggestions or
information.

My concerns/questions:
How will it handle stones in the malt?  I'm assuming a pulley would just slip
as opposed to damaging the mill or motor.

With the above concern in mind, is there a good way to motorize without have to
have exposed pulley system?  Of course you can build a box around the pulleys
to keep them hidden, but are there other options?

Are DC motors an option?  Outside of needing a power transformer, are there any
advantages/disadvantages to them?  Any suggestions or examples?

Thanks for any input.

Jeff



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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:26:43 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: The making of Barleywine

Bill Tobler says ...,

>    I'm going to make my first Barleywine next week, and am looking for a
few
> tips on fermenting it out.  It's going to be 5 gallons of a 1.100 OG beer.
> I made a 5 gallon batch of Cream Ale Saturday so I would have plenty of
> yeast next week to pitch on.  I use O2 to aerate with.
>
> Yesterday, when talking about starters, our resident -S said
"...Incremental
> additions of concentrated wort is exactly how the very high alcohol beers
> are made using normal brewing yeast - it causes less stress but still too
> much to accept in a starter."

The method in incremental feeding to achieve very high alcohol results works
something like this.    You start with say 15P wort and pitch generously..
Then when the gravity of the fermenting wort-beer drops below some
predefined level 10-13P for example, a measuered amount of very high gravity
wort or syrup is added in order to keep the apparent extract of the
fermenter in the 10-13P range.   The calculation of the 'effective' OG of
all the combined feedings and the original wort is straightforwards.

>    This sounds like a good idea.  I could ferment the first 3 gallons of
> wort, then add a gallon at a time every 2 or 3 days.  [...]
> Thanks in advance, and I'm open to any and all suggestions,
> whether I follow them or not.

I'm pretty sure that  first fermenting half a batch of 25P wort then adding
incremental amounts of 25P wort will NOT have a positive effect on the yeast
performance.   The point of incremental feeding is to limit the fermentables
concentration during fermentation and so the osmotic pressure.  Forcing the
yeast to handle the initial 25P is the problem which incremental feeding
avoids.

Perhaps you could separate first (very hi-grav) runnings or else add any
extract as hi-grav increments and get the job done.

Some othre factors that are known to improve hi-grav fermentations include
excesses of certain amino acids (don't skimp on FAN content) and also
removal of CO2 by the inclusion of nucleation sites (like acid washed sand
or cleaned fiber).  At least shake some of the CO2 out periodiccally.
 ...
>Forget to ask, I wonder if the 2 gallons of wort added later should be
>aerated with O2 before adding to the main beer? Me thinks not.

I *think* there must be some oxygen addition with the incremental feeding,
but I'm not sure.  Someone once posted a website of a brewery (Sam Adams ?
Rogue ?) which described incremental feeding.  I don't have the link.

Best of luck Bill - big fermentations are difficult.  Be prepared to
repitch.

 -Steve





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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:39:14 -0600
From: "Louis Bonham" <lkbonham at houston.rr.com>
Subject: MCAB VI Announcement

Greetings all:

*Whew*!  Just when I was getting near panic about finding a host for
MCAB VI, Rex Halfpenny has just stepped up to the plate and has agreed
to do the honors for the Sixth Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing.
Sponsors will be Michigan Beer Guide and Dragonmead Microbrewery in
Warren, Michigan, with the usual assortment of Michigan clubs pitching
in.  Date TBA (sometime in the Spring of 2004, probably) -- stay tuned.

All of this "bent-kneed running about and dancing behavior" in finding a
host for MCAB VI has got me thinking ahead . . . if you know of a solid,
established club or assortment of clubs that is interesting in hosting
MCAB VII in 2005, please raise this issue and drop me a line.  Yes,
there have been many killer MCAB's in the past, and trying to top some
of them could well be a fool's errand (e.g., opening night reception in
the Caucus Room of the Canon House Office Building on Capitol Hill at
MCAB V!).  Nevertheless, don't think that you have to top everything
that has come before -- what is needed are clubs that can run a
top-notch comeptition and a gathering of beergeekdom!

Kick it around with your beer amigos and let me know.

All the best -- 

Louis K. Bonham
Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing




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