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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Conical fermenter suggestions appreciated ("Gary Smith")
  Re: Sanke conversion to corny ("Ken")
  basement brewing ("jim")
  Danstar Nottingham for BW ("Dave Draper")
  Aluminum kettles ("Dave Draper")
  Re: St. Pat's counter-flow wort chiller (Demonick)
  re:  motorizing a mill (hollen)
  Re: Refractometer Tips (Demonick)
  Re: SWAG Definition ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Refractometer Tips ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Re;  Refractometer Tips ("William Frazier")
  Re: re:  motorizing a mill (Pat Babcock)
  Re: 3 Tier Systems & Aluminum Kettles (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Refractometer Tips (Jeff Renner)
  Altbier Yeast (Robert Sandefer)
  Belgian yeasts and saccharification rest temperatures (astern)
  Bottle Washer (Brian Lundeen)
  Sticks and stones and malt milling ("David Reed")
  FW: 10 gal cornies ("Shawn Wichman")
  Valves for fermentor - Right ones & Care & feeding... ("Gary Smith")


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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:26:05 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Conical fermenter suggestions appreciated

Hi,

I've decided to take the ultimate plunge & get a conical. I've thought about 
which sizes would be the best & have decided on either a 21 or 24 gallon 
conical. Looking to the future, this size will best allow me to handle future 
brewings larger than my current 10 gal batches.

I've been thinking of options available to the conical set-ups & one option 
is the "rotating Arm" where it's part way up the bevel of the conical & when 
you want to rack the beer you start with the arm upwards & then lower it 
till the yeast begins to flow. If raised from that position you are supposed 
to get clear beer. Read here under "side Port Option" near the bottom:
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=CON400
All conicals I know of have a port at the bottom controlled by a ball valve 
which is classically supposed to be an outlet for trub & yeast.
Understanding that I haven't used a conical, It seems to me that the 
"rotating arm" is not of much real use. If the fermentation has stopped or is 
nearly stopped, opening the valve at the bottom will allow the trub & yeast 
to be expelled. Once expelled, clear beer would exit and this is what would 
be racked to a secondary. 
It seems to me anyone wanting to harvest yeast would expel the trub while 
the fermentation is in say it's third or fourth day. When the fermentation is 
over say the 6-7th day, what would be scavenged from the bottom port 
would be mostly yeast minus trub.
If I'm right, the swinging rotating arm is a nice "toy" that can be used as 
described but all that's really needed is the one valve at the bottom and to 
expel the semi-solid contents at the bottom of the conical through it before 
racking beer through that bottom ball valve.
I can't imagine it would be of any practical use to leave the yeast/trub 
contents in the bottom while racking in that if you open the bottom valve, 
the contents would be expelled downward & outward & would not swirl 
upwards and sully the beer. If this is the case, harvesting the yeast until 
the beer flows free would be as good as using that rotating arm to find the 
level of beer/trub & drain the beer.
Are my assumptions correct?
Are the weldless connections of any reasonable use or do they require 
maintenance each fermentation session? I suppose having a FDA weld 
would be the most reliable to avoid bacteria harboring.
Also, How does one best attach a stainless lid to these conical hoppers so 
they will be air tight & sanitary?
Thanks as always,

Gary
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html
http://musician.dyndns.org/rims.html



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:42:34 -0500
From: "Ken" <kapna at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Sanke conversion to corny

Rob Dewhirst mused:

> I don't see how you could cut out a hole that would fit the corny lid
unless
> you cut out the dome at the top of the sanke keg, which would remove the
> valve.  This would make it impossible to get gas in and beer out.

Well, it can be done.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2569375217&category=53189
That perfect sized hole for ALMOST getting your arm stuck in a keg.

Ken Anderson
Drink beer. Live lager.




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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:54:24 -0500
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: basement brewing

here we go again... yeah, I know it's been discussed lots, but, I have a few
questions!

I'd like to move my 15 gal. RIMS down to the basement. I would convert to
natural gas. My plan is to have a plumber handle the gas and a friend that
builds restaurant hoods do me some venting. I want this done right, and will
pay for it, so, what is really needed? I know the danger is mostly carbon
monoxide, so I plan on having a meter. Any recommendations? Grainger
part#'s?

With a powerful restaurant quality hood, do I need to still need to have an
open window bringing in make up air, or do they have that incorporated? I
know my friend will know, I just want to prepare myself before approaching
him.

I would be very interested in any pics. anybody can send me on their
basement setups.

Thanks,
jim
Providence, RI



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:56:45 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Danstar Nottingham for BW

Dear Friends,

In # 4398, Jay Spies suggested to Bill Tobler that he use Danstar 
Nottingham dried yeast to ferment Bill's planned barleywine.  I think 
this is a fine idea.  I first became aware of this yeast after sampling 
(and sampling... and sampling) Rob Moline's medal winning (I think it 
was even GABF...?) barleywine that he made while at Little Apple back 
in the mid-90s.  This was simply one of the very finest beers I've ever 
tasted, and that's what  Rob used.  I have always kept a couple of 
packs around ever since, and in fact used it on a biggish (OG 1067) 
IPA, my first brew after resuming the operation after the move from 
Houston to ABQ.  It's always performed very well for me, both in 
terms of fermentation vigor and the flavor of the product.

Cheers, Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:04:15 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Aluminum kettles

Dear Friends,

Joe Berardino asks about using an aluminum brew kettle in the 3-tier 
he's putting together.  Joe, I've been using my trusty 40-litre 
aluminum kettle for eight years and over a hundred batches now, and 
have had zero problems of any flavors making it into the beer.  The 
aluminum oxidizes pretty rapidly, and that aluminum-oxide coating is 
what the beer comes into contact with, and it's insoluble as all getout.  
The trick is not to scrub the pot bright after use, but simply clean it 
well as you would any other piece of your gear, immediately after you 
use it, and Everything Should Be Just Fine.

Cheers, Dave in ABQ

David S. Draper, david at draper.name
Institute of Meteoritics, 1 Univ New Mexico,
MSC03-2050, Albuquerque, NM 87131
Lab: http://epswww.unm.edu/highp
Homepage: http://www.unm.edu/~draper
Commercial email unwelcome.



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:19:12 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: St. Pat's counter-flow wort chiller

I don't know about the St. Pat's CFC in particular, but the tech sheets I
have seen for some CFCs shows that the wort tube has both internal and
external topography to increase the distance the wort and the chilling
water takes.  

Imagine that the wort tube is straight and has 4 equi-spaced ridges down
its length.  The ridges, perhaps 1/5 of the tube diameter create both
internal wall profile and external wall profile.  Now twist the tube until
it looks like a screw or a piece of red liquorice.  That is what the inside
tube of a CFC looks like.

I have a drawing and will try to post it on hbd.org.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com




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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:19:56 -0500 (EST)
From: hollen at woodsprite.com
Subject: re:  motorizing a mill


I mount the motor under the mill on a hinged platform.  Small pulley goes
on motor, large pulley on mill, with a ratio to produce about 300RPM.

With the motor mounted on a hinged platform, the only thing keeping the V
belt tight is the weight of the motor.  If anything jams the mill (and it
has for me in the past) the motor hops up and down doing a dance and the V
belt slips protecting the mill.  Simple, cheap and easy to build and self
protecting.

dion

- --
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:26:12 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Refractometer Tips

Bob Hall asks:
>So what's the deal? Any tips from refractometer users would be
appreciated.

If the wort is hot I let it sit for a bit on the refractometer stage.  If
it's room temp I just go for it.  Bubbles and turbidity will affect the
crispness of the line.  Readings of the same wort should be consistent.  
Getting the light right can be an issue.  Calibration can also be an issue.  
The 2 refractometers I have each have 3 adjustment screws on the
bottom.  The adjustments allow for a zero and a midrange calibration.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:28:20 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Re: SWAG Definition


>I learned SWAG was Stupid Wild A$$ Guess.

The definition I learned in engineering school was Scientific Wild A$$
Guess, as in a not quite exact answer but an educated guess based on the
knowledge at hand the expertise of the guesser.  Stupid would also correctly
describe many of the Guesses however!

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:37:14 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Refractometer Tips

> A year or so ago I purchased an ATC refractometer in hopes of reading OG
> with a few drops of wort rather than needing a whole hydrometer sampling
> tube. I gave up after awhile and went back to the hydrometer because my
> refractometer readings seemed to swing wildly in back-to-back readings
with
> the same wort, same temperature.

Let me guess, this was the <$100  refractometer from morebeer.com?

If so, I have the same one, and see the same problems. (following the
provided directions)

> I have this model, purchased about this time frame, and I have the same
problem.
> I've since read somewhere that the sample should be left on the stage for
> 30 seconds before a reading is taken,

I always do this, and still have the problem.

> but last night while watching the
> Thirsty Traveler on the Fine Living Channel I saw a Brazilian distiller
> literally take a ladel of potential Cachaca, pour it over the prism, and
> take an immediate reading.
> So what's the deal? Any tips from refractometer users would be
appreciated.

He probably has a very expensive refractometer.

Or a better guess is the activity was staged for TV.



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:47:59 -0600
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  Refractometer Tips

Bob Hall has had poor results using a refractometer to determine the
specific gravity of wort "So what's the deal? Any tips from refractometer
users would be appreciated."

Bob - I don't think there's any magic to using a refractometer to take wort
readings.  I just put a drop or two of wort on the glass part of the
instrument, close the cover and observe the reading.  I don't wait any
specified time.  Sometimes too much sample leads to fuzzy readings so I
repeat.  Next time you try this be sure to cool the sample to the
temperature specified for the hydrometer...then compare.    I think the
hydrometer is more sensitive to temperature than the refractometer.  Here's
some data showing what I consider to be good correlation between
refractometer and hydrometer readings.  I had a set-up to chill wort to the
proper temp. for hydrometer readings so I went ahead and compared hot to
cold wort with the refractometer.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Specific Gravity of Wort During Sparge

Compare Refractometer and Hydrometer



Redhawk Ale, July 1999

8.00 lbs            Pale malt

1.00 lb             Cara Vienne

0.50 lb             Cara Munich

0.50 lb             Flaked maize

0.25 lb             Aromatic malt



Mash with 3 gallons brewing water

Sparge with 5 gallons brewing water

Collect 6 gallons wort



Specific gravity of sparge

Time                 RI hot     RI cold       NR Hyd.       BR Hyd.

zero minutes     1.101      1.096          1.093            1.092

13                    1.102      1.096          1.093            1.092

22                    1.067      1.065          1.063            1.064

32                    1.041      1.037          1.037            1.038

42                    1.018      1.017          1.017            1.014

52                    1.009      1.009          1.008            1.008

54 mixed          1.053      1.052          1.053            1.052



RI - refractive index (brix converted to specific gravity)

NR Hyd. - narrow-range hydrometer (brix converted to specific gravity)

BR Hyd. - broad-range hydrometer (readings in specific gravity)







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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:25:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: re:  motorizing a mill


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, hollen at woodsprite.com wrote:

> I mount the motor under the mill on a hinged platform.  Small pulley goes
> on motor, large pulley on mill, with a ratio to produce about 300RPM.
> 
> With the motor mounted on a hinged platform, the only thing keeping the V
> belt tight is the weight of the motor.  If anything jams the mill (and it
> has for me in the past) the motor hops up and down doing a dance and the V
> belt slips protecting the mill.  Simple, cheap and easy to build and self
> protecting.
> 

That's how I built mine many, many moons ago, too. Works without
fail for these, mmmm, crimony, six years? Have detected no undo
wear on the bushings of the Schmidling mill suspending the
motor, either.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:15:11 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 3 Tier Systems & Aluminum Kettles

"Joe Berardino" <misbrewhaven at hotmail.com> is considering a tiered 
system using 40 qt. kettles and asks:

>Are there any real pitfalls or disavantages in using aluminum I 
>should be aware of ?

I don't think so.  I have used a three kettle system using 40 qt, 5mm 
thick kettles equipped with valves for some yeasrs and have had no 
trouble.  One feature of aluminum is that it has a far better 
conductivity of heat than SS, which means they heat better over a 
propane burner, but it also means they lose heat more quickly.  I 
have insulated the mash tun with foil bubble wrap, but it breaks down 
from burner heat (when I boos), so I wrap it in a blanket during 
rests.  I need to look into a better heat-proof insulation

I was concerned with corrosion around the brass fittings for the 
spigots but have observed next to none.  There has been no pitting 
either.

The Alzheimer's connection with aluminum is pretty much disproved, 
and I have no metallic off tastes whatsoever.  As a matter of fact, 
an article in Brewing techniques some years ago showed that identical 
(extract) worts boiled in aluminum and SS had identical aluminum 
levels, which was actually lower than the base water itself.  It 
seems that some complexed out with proteinaceous trub.

In my system, I heat the mash water in two kettles and mash-in, then 
finish heating enough for sparging and transfer it to a ten gallon 
raised cooler.  This empties two kettles, one of which I ferment in 
(when fermenting ales) and the other of which I boil in.

I really like this system.  It allows me to brew in 8 gallon batches 
to fill quarter barrel (7.75 gallon) Sankey kegs.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:22:15 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Refractometer Tips

Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net> writes from Napoleon, Ohio:

>A year or so ago I purchased an ATC refractometer in hopes of reading OG
>with a few drops of wort rather than needing a whole hydrometer sampling
>tube. I gave up after awhile and went back to the hydrometer because my
>refractometer readings seemed to swing wildly in back-to-back readings with
>the same wort, same temperature.

I really love my refractometer.  I'd hate to brew without it.

I found that a big source of error was evaporation of my sample 
before it cooled.  Now I take a spoonful of wort and immediately 
chill it by putting the back of the spoon against an ice cube held in 
a paper towel.  I quickly stir the sample with my fingertip, and it 
cools within three or four seconds, quickly enough to virtually 
eliminate evaporation.  Then I use my fingertip to transfer a couple 
of drops of now cool wort to the prism.  I now get consistent, 
accurate readings.

>I think that I was following the
>directions; a few drops of wort to completely cover the prism window before
>dropping the plate, rinsing and drying between readings.

I haven't found it necessary to completely cover the prism, but it is 
probably a good idea.

>I've since read somewhere that the sample should be left on the stage for
>30 seconds before a reading is taken

I can't imagine any reason for this.  It is a matter of physics, not 
chemistry (as in pH paper readings, which you may be thinking of). 
It should be immediately readable.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:48:01 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Altbier Yeast

Now that the weather is cooling down, I am contemplating making a 
Dusseldorf altbier, so I have searched through the archives for advice.

The malt bill and hops selection are clearly discussed; however, previous 
posts concerning yeast selection leave me with a problem.

My supplier only carries White Labs yeast, but the archives mostly discuss 
Wyeast European or Wyeast German ale yeasts. Nods are given to White Labs 
German ale/Kolsch and White Labs Dusseldorf alt yeasts. Unfortunately, the 
latter is no longer sold and I fear the former would not impart a suitably 
malty/traditional flavor to a potential altbier.

Is there a White Labs strain with attenuative and flavor characteristics 
appropriate for an altbier?

May I beseech the Altbier Gurus to come forth with advice? ;)

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:39:01 -0600
From: astern at tulane.edu
Subject: Belgian yeasts and saccharification rest temperatures

Hello, I have two questions for the digest:

Can Belgian yeasts metabolize polysaccharides and dextrins, 
and if so, to what extent? 

These sugars are usually unfermentable for most standard 
ale and lager yeasts, but Belgian brews have comparatively 
low final gravities compared to those made with standard 
beer yeasts.  I presume this indicates that perhaps some 
polysaccharides are indeed metabolized by Belgian yeasts,
but I have yet to see any facts or figures in print.

A related and rather applied question is: 

To what extent can a brewer control the final gravity of 
Belgian beers by adjusting the sugar rest temperature in 
the mash?

If the yeasts are simply going to eat all the sugars in sight,
then the particular distribution of simple sugars in a brew
would be irrelevant, as would the sugar rest temperature.  I 
suspect this picture is not entirely correct.

Thank you for your time, 
 
Adam Stern
astern at tulane.edu
(504) 483-3663


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:11:40 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Bottle Washer

Have a look at this beauty.

http://www.cask.com/Brew_on_Premises/Packaging/Washers/washers.html

Now the bad part: $8500 CDN, or if we convert that to US dollars, too darn
much money!

Now you seem like a handy and resourceful lot. Somebody must have some ideas
about how to go about building a simplified (and much cheaper) version of
this.

I certainly don't need the automated cycles, computer controlled product
mixing, etc

Just something that will blast a couple of cases of bottles with cleaning
solution (likely need some recirculating there to avoid a lot of wastage),
water rinse and sanitizer.

Any thoughts on a good design for such a system?

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:32:18 -0800
From: "David Reed" <dsreed1 at msn.com>
Subject: Sticks and stones and malt milling

Dave Burley's suggestion (on 11/12/03 #4398) to use the drill clutch is an 
excellent one. This is something I will start doing. Fortunately I have yet 
to encounter such foreign objects as sticks, stones or screws in my malt.

I have something to add. I use the Valley Mill and am quite happy with it. 
It came with a 1/4 Hex (socket head cap screw) to drive the roller as an 
option to the hand crank. To create a "universal joint adapter", I bought a 
1/4" "Ball Driver" Allen key (from McMaster-Carr or Grainger) and cut off 
the "L" end. This makes for a handy straight adapter with a ball driver end 
which acts as a "universal joint". I then chuck this into my 14.4v DeWalt 
cordless drill to drive the mill, and therefore don't have to make an effort 
to keep careful alignment.

I see no need to build an elaborate motor/pully belt contraption. I just set 
the mill on a 5 gal. plaster bucket, load her up and drill away. This is 
cordless, provides for variable speed, and now protects against damage from 
foreign objects. The portability of this arrangement also makes it easy to 
do the milling outside to cut down on dust in the shop.

Congrats on the new house Chip.

Dave Reed
Frederick Maryland 


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:36:00 -0700
From: "Shawn Wichman" <wichmans at bradfordroof.com>
Subject: FW: 10 gal cornies

> u can go to www.spartanburgstainless.com. They quoted me
>  at $217.00 for a brand new 10 gal corny keg
> 


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:34:31 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Valves for fermentor - Right ones & Care & feeding...


More questions on the ubiquitous fermenter.

I think I'm coming close to an end to this fermenter saga but I've learned 
so much & still have more questions than when I started looking & asking. 
Seems like there's always more to ask & finding answers in which most 
are in agreement is the biggest challenge. 

I contacted a company that sells conical fermenters & parts and the gent 
on the other end warned me of the dangers of using a ball valve in the 
fermenter in that there would be a cache of yeast that does not easily 
clean and may be a source of contamination. He said each fermentation 
would require the ball valves be removed soaked & replaced. Perhaps he 
meant the entire valve needed to be dis-assembled & parts soaked but I 
didn't think to clarify that at the time. 

His suggestion was to use a butterfly valve. I looked on their website & 
found a 1/2" one made of brass for $12.00 and their smallest one ( 1" ) 
made of Stainless was $99.00 which is out of my range. Everything I have 
is stainless & I'd rather not put brass on my fermenter. The one for $99. 
looks like it would require more attachments to seat it on the fermenter 
and my gut feeling is it's not necessary.

I had planned to have a 1/2" half coupling with a 1/2" nipple and a 1/2" SS 
full bore valve as the dump valve. I'd thought the best way to clean this 
was to either squirt everclear into the valve outlet before releasing trub & 
harvesting yeast or to place a bucket of Star San onto the valve so the 
valve was submerged. I do worry about having a pocket of air trapped 
inside the outlet so no star San can reach the ball itself. How to clean 
once fermentation is underway or over...

I had figured for the sanitizing of the inside of the fermenter before 
fermenting I would spritz the inside with Star San and work the ball valve 
to work the Star San into all the working parts.

I can't find an inexpensive 1" or 1 1/2"butterfly assembly that fits much as 
I'd like to..

What works the best here & what's overkill? is the Brass one just as 
good?

Thanks,

Gary
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html
http://musician.dyndns.org/rims.html



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---