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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: When to carbonate lager? (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  Dallas Shops ("Bill Dubas")
  Measuring carbonation in beer (Michael Owings)
  Cleaning Stainless Steel ("Stephen and Lori Rockey")
  link of the week - Nov 22, 2003 (Bob Devine)
  Category 24 not open (Chris Colby)
  First Time Stuck ("John Kramer")
  Widmer yeast and WLP320 (Robert Sandefer)
  Experimental Beer (Robert Sandefer)
  Sabco Fermentor ("jeff preston")
  Clear for takeoff? (David)
  temperature ("Robert Speights")
  yeast ranching (Alan McKay)
  sodium carbonate (washing soda, soda ash) ("Jon & Megan Sandlin")
  Classification, AoB (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Widmer hefeweizen yeast ("Christian Layke")


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:24:16 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: When to carbonate lager?

"Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu> asks:

>I am brewing my first lager, a Vienna.  It spent a month in the primary at
>55, and now is in kegs in my chest freezer at 34.  My question is when I
>should carbonate... I pushed it into kegs under about 10 lbs of pressure,
>so it is still under some pressure.  While it is lagering, should I release
>any pressure that builds up, or should I just let it go?  When should I
>carbonate it?

Either way will work, in my experience.   I seem to recall that 
pressure speeds lagering.

A month in the primary at 55F is a mighty long time - was it still 
fermenting that whole time?  That suggests something not entirely 
right - perhaps underpitching.  When I make a bigish starter (three 
or four "builds" of a liter, decant, repeat), my eight gallon batches 
are about done in 10-14 days at 48-5-F (9-10C).  When I repitch a 
half cup of the yeast from such a brew, it is done in 7-10 days.

I like to rack to a sealed Sankey when the fermentation is just about 
done, but is still ticking over.  When I do this just right, I get 
perfect carbonation during lagering at 32F.  Apparently, lager yeast 
can still work, albeit slowly, at lagering temperature.

My suggestion is that you keep the pressure and sample occasionally 
for clarity and flavor, as well as carbonation.  Then, when it seems 
ready, put it on CO2 at an appropriate pressure for the carbonation 
level you want.

I suspect that with your long primary, it won't take as long to lager 
as it would otherwise.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:28:28 +0000
From: "Bill Dubas" <bill_dubas at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Dallas Shops

Neil from Austin asks:

"Do you know of any shops in the DFW area that carry Bert Grants and/or 
Bridgeport products?"

Hi Neil,

We also have Central Market in Dallas (and a store in Plano) but I do not 
recall seeing Grants or Bridgeport their either. There are two other places 
that have a large selection that you may want to try.  The first is Hall's 
Grocery, located on the NW corner of Highway 121 and Glade Rd in Grapevine.  
The owner prides himself on having the largest beer selection in Texas.  
There is also a liquor store on the NW corner of Highway 75 and Spring Creek 
Pkwy in Plano, named S&K Beverage, which has a fairly good selection.

You may also want to try another tactic by calling some of the beer 
distributors.  They can tell you if they have it and what retailers they are 
delivering it to.  That's what I had to do when Ommegang first started 
coming to Texas and I wanted to try it.

Regards,
Bill Dubas
North Texas Homebrewers Association



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:56:45 -0600
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: Measuring carbonation in beer

Short of a carbonation meter, does anyone know of any practical method
of measuring the carbonation of a given sample of beer?

Thanx -- m
====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:45:43 -0600
From: "Stephen and Lori Rockey" <slrockey at rockeyfamily.org>
Subject: Cleaning Stainless Steel

Hello,
	I recently was the recipient of some beer kegging equipment. (Some beer
taps and a large drip tray)  The stainless on the taps looks like it was put
away dirty...years ago.  It is not rusty, just really dirty.  Is there
something I can soak them in to get them clean, or am I stuck with elbow
grease?

	Thanks,
	Steve



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:43:53 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: link of the week - Nov 22, 2003

Many of the hop varieties that homebrewers use were developed
in the UK.  Here is the website for National Hop Association
of England.

http://www.hops.co.uk/News.htm

I particularly enjoyed the description of different hops.
And where else is there a beer competition sponsored by
the "British Cheese Board"?

Bob Devine
Santa Fe, NM
(seemingly on a tour of all western states...)


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:46:58 -0600
From: Chris Colby <colbybrewery at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Category 24 not open

Category 24 of the BJCP guidelines is not an open category.

Category 24 category for people who have brewed a beer to style with a
twist. The guidelines clearly state -- in a passage underlined for emphasis
- -- the "The brewer must specify the underlying beer style. . ." Furthermore,
the way you implement the twist on the existing beer style is strictly
regulated. The rules say that when multiple non-style conforming ingredients
are used "each should be distinctive in their own way." I.e. if you brewed a
beer in which you wished a fruit flavor to be dominant and a spice used as
nuance, you would ge graded down because the spice was not in your face.
Category 24 is actually very restrictive.

For brewers steeped in the idea of brewing to style, Category 24 probably
seems like an open category. And, as a matter of practice, it collects beers
that do not fit in other categories. However, it is not -- by the way it is
defined in the guidelines -- an open category.

A homebrewer can easily brew many types of good beers that do not use odd
ingredients or special procedures -- or anything that makes them "special,"
experimental or historical -- and yet not fit in any existing BJCP category.
It would be nice if the BJCP added a truly open category for brewers who
simply like to make beer that tastes good and aren't worried about brewing
to style.

(For the record, I'm not trying to slam the BJCP. I've entered and judged at
a few homebrew contests and I think the BJCP guidelines work well for
homebrewers who want to brew traditional styles of beer competitively. My
only point is that there are many other brewers who just brew and they
should have a chance to enter competitions in a category (or categories)
where a good unique beer could be recognized. Category 24 is not that
category.
 


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:56:22 -0500
From: "John Kramer" <kramjj03 at wfu.edu>
Subject: First Time Stuck

I'm a beginner/intermediate homebrewer and I'm experiencing a stuck
fermentation for the first time. I have tried to read up on it a lot to find
a solution on my own but there seems to be so many different approaches for
fixing the problem.  I'm working with a high gravity (OG 1.062) ale that
successfully went through primary fermentation in 4 days, and has been in a
secondary carboy for 2 weeks. Gravity has been stuck at 1.022 since it has
been racked into the secondary. It still tastes very sweet.  I don't have an
air rock or anything, would it be best to try to just add yeast nutrients
and more yeast?

Thanks!

John - Winston-Salem, NC



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:10:36 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Widmer yeast and WLP320

In Digest 2823, Scott Murman claimed that the Widmer Hefeweizen strain was 
WLP320 and that both are the strain used by Zum Uerige.

Has this ever been verified/refuted?

Robert
Arlington, VA



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:56:32 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Experimental Beer

Marc Sedam comments on a series of "Belgian Stouts."

I suggest porters can also be "Belgianized." I did an experimental batch 
with a robust porter recipe and White Labs Trappist ale yeast. The beer is 
certainly different and good (although not very porter-like).
I noticed in my beer that the roasted tastes are less obvious than in other 
porters, and I suspect this yeast can de-emphasize such tastes or at least 
cover them with plenty of plum and berry esters.

Experiment On!

Robert
Arlington, VA


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:16:54 -0800
From: "jeff preston" <brewingales at msn.com>
Subject: Sabco Fermentor

I've been using one for about 3 years and find it quite user friendly. I 
ditched the sight tube and transfer with CO2. Clean with hot PBW and 
sanitize with Star-San and I've never had a bad batch. You can also areate 
through the out tube and roll the keg on the floor for some good saturation. 
I love mine. I cut the out tube a little shorter for clear transfer's.



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:07:26 -0800
From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
Subject: Clear for takeoff?

Dear HBDrs,
   I decided to give a go at kegging. I bought a chest freezer with
thermocontroller, 2 5gal ball lock cornies and all the reat of the kegging
set up. I've read as much as I can about this but... as you know, there's
always some trial by fire that will enter in for the novice. Does the great
collective know of any pitfalls that are waiting out there for me? Perhaps
some, "The books say this but...?" "Paranoia, the destroya!" say The Kinks.

Many  thanks,
David Brandt
Cloverdale, CA 


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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:32:20 -0700
From: "Robert Speights" <rspeight at frii.com>
Subject: temperature

I have a Belgian Trippel nearing the end of
primary (69-70F).
Any recommendations on the best temperature for
secondary?
And, on which side to err?  'Tis better to fusel
than to autolyze?

ColoradoBob





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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:36:37 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: yeast ranching


Bill wants to get into yeast ranching.
There are several methods detailed on my yeast page, from really
simple on up to 'lab-grade' (written by a microbiologist)

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20020413075555126

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:57:21 -0800
From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
Subject: sodium carbonate (washing soda, soda ash)

I am curious if sodium carbonate is an effective cleanser for deposits on
fermenters and I have the following questions about it:  a) I am assuming
that it is safer than caustic soda, am I correct in this thinking?  b) What
materials is it safe to use on glass,  copper,stainless, plastic, etc.?  c)
Is it effective as a cip for fermenter crud?  Thanks in advance for any
help.

Jon Sandlin
Bend, OR




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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:31:55 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Classification, AoB

Hello again,

Not that I want to belabour the point but I now realize that I made the 
mistake of conflating two issues in my initial post on classification: 
classification systems (taxonomies, typologies) and style descriptions. 
My point was about the latter while the former (occasional *abuse* of 
BJCP guidelines) is more of a personal pet peeve.
As for classifications per se, I eventually came across the AoB's 
classification system which is more or less what I had in mind as it's 
rather straightforward and consistent. It's not perfect but, at least, 
it's based on specific criteria. Namely: fermentation type 
(ale/lager/mixed) and origin (German, British, American, Belgian, 
Others). The only things I would change, personally, would be to add a 
"wild" fermentation type (to account for things like sake and kvas) and 
put pLambic in the "mixed" category (started with ale culture but 
characterized by wild fermentation). Also, I'd probably specify the 
third level on the axis of bitterness to sweetness, as it's probably 
what people have most in mind.
You can find the AoB's classification as the ToC to their style 
guidelines PDF available here:
http://www.beertown.org/education/styles.html

Sorry to post so much about this and thanks again for your help.

Alex (aka Ale-X), in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:37:48 -0500
From: "Christian Layke" <clayke at wri.org>
Subject: Widmer hefeweizen yeast

>Does anyone know if Wyeast or White Labs has the Widmer hefeweizen yeast, 
>and if so, what the product number/name is?
>TIA
>Randy

I just read that Widmer uses an Alt yeast for their hefeweizen 
(way too clean for my taste).  Whether that Alt yeast is the 
same one availble from either White Labs or Wyeast was not 
mentioned.  

Christian



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