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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: RIMS Controller ("Gary Smith")
  P.damnosis ("-S")
  Transporting Kegged Beer (Bob Hall)
  CIP products ("Kenneth Peters")
  RIMS Temperature Control ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Renner's Eggnog ("David Craft")
  Thanks Pat ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Brewing Botanicals (Sweet Gale and Grains of Paradise) (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Re: The elusive maltiness ("Martin Brungard")
  Wiki for Beer and Brewing?? (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Wiki, wiki (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Grains of Paradise ("Kevin Morgan")
  Counter Phil thingy - huh? (Torrey Nommesen)
  corny fermenters ("Patrick Hughes")


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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:04:20 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS Controller



<snip>

> So is there a company that sells a RIMS controller and
> temperature probes?

Dave,

Look at my rims page. I've listed the kind of PID controller I chose. 
It provides a pulsed DC output which increases in firing sequence 
the farther from the setting it is. The closer to set temp, the more 
off time. Above set temp there is no firing. This controls a 50A 
SSR triggered by +3-32V This PID I believe ranges around 
10VDC. It sells new for around $200. I believe mine is a 
CN9121A with the pulsed primary & 5A SS relay secondary 
output. I could see no advantage to using a relay output from 
the PID and using the SSR handles all of it quietly & without 
welded contactors.

I'm thinking still of running my ultra low watt heating element 
(82" worth of element) at 220 and in that case I'll simply add a 
second 50A SSR in parallel and the second line through it.

I got the PID on Ebay for I believe $35 new.
I bought three 50A SSRs for like $2.75 each new.

The thermocouple was sold by Movingbrews which is belly up 
but it's a "J" style and in the rims I've got, the temp never varys 
more than 1 degree F down (never goes over) once the set 
temp is attained and I run my march pump at full output 
(5 gal/min). My last batch of wheat was an experiment and 
I used around 50% wheat and the RIMS with this controller 
was still full output & the same temperature stats.

This "J" has a nice wire braid shielding the wires.  Any 
decent thermocouple should be just fine.

Like everything on ebay, there's good deals to be had until 
someone gung-ho decides they just have to have "whatever" 
right now & then the bidding goes un-necessarily high.

Patience grasshopper...

Gary

Gary Smith
CQ DX de KA1J
http://musician.dyndns.org
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html


"Give a man a beer and he'll drink for five minutes.
Teach him where the beer is, he'll drink for a lifetime and get it himself".




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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:43:31 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: P.damnosis

You cannot identify an infection organism by aroma and taste alone.  All
sorts of infection organisms share very similar metabolic processes and
by-products.   There are dozens if not hundreds of  organisms that can
create butter and sweatsocks flavors alone.  In combinations many more
possibilities for infection exist..  The probability that Jay Spies has
P.damnosis is low.

Identifying the organism is a difficult expensive task, and generally
unimportant compared with recognizing that infection is present and dealing
with its source, as Jay has done.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:30:08 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Transporting Kegged Beer

Gary Smith offered an interesting method for transporting his kegged brews:

"BTW, I did purchase a 3 gal keg for ease of
transportation & if I'm going visiting with the
3 gal keg, I fill it 1/2 way & pressurize it so I
won't need to worry about running out of
CO2, having to lug a 20 pound CO2 tank with
me or buying pricey but convenient replacement
CO2 injector cartridges."

One of the reasons that I haven't begun kegging was the transportation 
issue. I'd appreciate some comments on favorite methods of moving kegged 
beer to parties, vacations, etc. Many thanks.

Bob Hall
Napoleon, OH



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:11:06 -0600
From: "Kenneth Peters" <kpeters6 at cox.net>
Subject: CIP products

In the last HBD, Eric Schoville asked for a list of CIP products, costs and
caveats. I'm sure all of the major ones will be covered and I'm equally sure
that PBW will be among the first mentioned. And that's fine as it is a great
product and I have used it many times. However, I also believe Straight A to
be equally good and have never been able to see any practical difference
between the two products in my cleaning efforts. Since Straight A is
significantly less expensive than PBW and its producer (Rick T.) is an active
member of the HBD, I have always wondered why PBW was usually the first
recommendation that most folks make. I believe that since both products seem
virtually indistinguishable in use and since Rick is always eager to add his
support to the HBD, and since his product is substantially less expensive, I
think we should make an effort to support him and his product first. Not
affiliated with either company, just a satisfied user. Ken

Ken Peters
Harrah, Oklahoma



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:06:59 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject:  RIMS Temperature Control

Hey RIMSer's,

I've been thinking some about RIMS temperature controls, and it seems that
there are a couple ways that people seem to do this, but they have problems
IMO.

(1) Using a PID controller with the temperature probe on the mash tun
outlet.   This will result in a time delay between the heater turning 'on'
and the sensed temperature rise, leading to overshooting the temperature.
This could be managed by limiting the heat input to a small value, using a
small P, and a small I, all of which lead to a 'ramp' mash instead of a
'step' mash.  Temperature changes on the order of 1-2 degree F/min result in
a ramp between steps taking almost as long as the targeted rests!

(2) Using a PID with the probe on the heating chamber outlet.  This will
result in the mash tun never actually reaching the target, it will
asymptotically approach the set point.  A recent BYO (?) had a brewer that
made the set point a couple degrees higher than their actual target to
overcome this problem.  He must have to reduce the set point as the target
is approached, requiring the brewer to be there, monitoring the temperature
by eye.  It spoils the point of having a 'controller' if you are really
controlling it by hand IMO.

(3)  Using a PID with the probe somewhere in the middle of the mash tun.
Sort of a compromise between  1 and 2.  Still problems with overshoot unless
you limit the heating rate.

I'm sure people will jump all over these observations, claiming to have
their auto-tuning PID perfectly dialed into their system with no overshoots
and rapid ramps.  Just set it and forget it!  Please post your numbers (ramp
rates, wattage, etc) and the location of the temp probe.

The question I'm getting at is why are these controllers being used for this
application?  They're not ideal for it based on the problems above.  The
problem is that they are dumb.  They don't know how much water you have in
your system, how many watts your heater is, how much grain you have in
there, or what the insulative properties of your system are.

They should be smarter.  A software based controller on a PC could walk thru
the step changes and hold the rest temperatures based on needed heat input.
For example, for a temperature change of X in Y gallons of water and Z
pounds of grain, it would need to turn on the heater for T seconds.  The
correct amount of heat would then have been added and would be mixed in by
the pump much more rapidly than a PID system could ever do it.  The software
would then be smart enough to wait for the temperature change to make its
way thru the system before making another adjustment.

During a rest, if the temperature is a couple degrees low, it would
calculate exactly how long to turn on the heater to bump the temperature
right back onto target.  It would also know how much heat is lost with time
based on how well your mash tun is insulated, so those heat inputs would be
added automatically, before observing a temperature drop.

The end result is that there would be no more 'searching' for the target
blindly as a PID does.  The answer to a heat adjustment problem is a simple
Joule input equation, the PID is just not smart enough to calculate it.

Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY






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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:04:38 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Renner's Eggnog

Surely the recipe has a name-

"My Fathers Eggnog"

"Comb That Crap Out Of Your Mustache!"

"Why Is Dad Asleep On The Sofa"

or someone combination of the above.

Brewing on and maybe I'll stop by for a cup of my Brother's Eggnog.  He
carries on the tradition of his Father in law.  Great stuff and you don't
have to worry about Salmonella, it is pickled!

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Guild
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC





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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:18:14 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Thanks Pat

Pat's post about electrical work in his home brings up an important point.

At 12:48 AM 12/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>...), and we are near the time when they'll be wanting to
>monkey with the electrical system. This means that the HBD will
>necessarily be unnavailable for a period of time whilst they
>perform this work.

Although the wisdom of the HBD is the result of many, many people, the fact 
that we all get an email every day is the result of the work of very 
few.  Thanks  to Pat and the rest of the janitors who keep this up and running.

Mike
Monterey,CA 



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:10:12 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Brewing Botanicals (Sweet Gale and Grains of Paradise) 

Josh at UWOsh (UWisc at Oshkosh, apparently) asked about brewing 
botanicals:

> I am reading a homebrew catalog that lists Sweet gale and paradise 
> seed as
> idea for belgian style ales... has anyone used either have these? Are 
> the
> suitable to use in conjunction with each other?
Haven't found these locally yet but was interested in using them. For 
recommendations on their use in brewing, you might look at this:
http://www.calferm.org/edu/misc/botanicals.htm
http://www.geocities.com/bontasaurus/treatise_on_brewing.html

Alex (aka Ale-X), in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:35:25 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The elusive maltiness

It's interesting to see knowlegible comments from professional brewers like 
Jim Busch, but I want more from him.  One of his comments, in particular, 
raised my curiosity.  The recommendation for a mashing program that provides 
about 80 percent ADA.

I'm assuming that ADA refers to the Apparent Degree of Attenuation, but I'm 
not sure.  In addition, I'm not sure what ADA a typical wort is likely to 
achieve when employing a simple mashing schedule like a single infusion in 
the low 150's F.  I'm assuming that the recommendation of 80 percent is on 
the low side of normal.

I hope that Jim or someone else would expand on this ADA discussion.  
Information such as the expected ADA created when employing a protein rest 
and some sachrafication rest, or the expected ADA difference when performing 
a low temp sach rest (say 150F) vs. a high temp sach rest (say 156F).

I'd like to hear more!  If someone could point out some typical ADA numbers 
and how the mashing schedule affects the ADA, I would greatly appreciate it.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:17:28 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Wiki for Beer and Brewing??

Hm, this just struck me. Shouldn't there be a wiki somewhere about beer 
and brewing?
Not as a replacement for the digest, of course. But as a supplement. A 
way to organize some of the information that is most frequently 
discussed.

For those who don't know, a wiki is a community-oriented system for 
publishing simple web pages. The syntax of these pages is extremely 
simple and it enables people to publish snippets of information about 
most anything. Its best-known incarnation is the WikiPedia:
http://www.wikipedia.org/

There could be wiki entries for procedures (SingleInfusion, 
AcidRest...), ingredients (CaraPils, ViennaMalt...), styles (AltBier, 
ClassicAmericanPilsner...), and even organizations (HomeBrewDigest, 
MembersOfBarleyment, MontreAlers...), and personalities (PatBabcock, 
JeffRenner, SteveAlexander, MichaelJackson...). Endless possibilities 
for fun and collaboration.
Why didn't we think about this before? Or maybe we did...

Yeah, ok, somebody did:
http://www.chuggnutt.com/2002/09/30/wikipedia.html

And there are entries on beer and brewing on WikiPedia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing

But there are specialized wikis in different fields and this one would 
be a good one. Even if we eventually transfer articles to WikiPedia.

So, who could/would host it? It's supposedly one of these things that 
are *extremely* easy to set up and you don't need a large bandwidth. 
But you do need a static host with some administrative privileges, 
which isn't something I have, right now.

AleX, in MontReal
[555.1km, 62.8] ApparentRennerianCoordinates



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:39:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Wiki, wiki

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

> From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu> writes..


> Hm, this just struck me. Shouldn't there be a wiki somewhere about beer 
> and brewing?
> 
> For those who don't know, a wiki is a community-oriented system for 
> publishing simple web pages. The syntax of these pages is extremely 
> simple and it enables people to publish snippets of information about 
> 
> There could be wiki entries for procedures (SingleInfusion, 
> AcidRest...), ingredients (CaraPils, ViennaMalt...), styles (AltBier, 
> ClassicAmericanPilsner...), and even organizations (HomeBrewDigest, 

Actually, the Preserve and Club Pages on the HBD site do this,
but somewhat exclusively. I had experimetned briefly with Twiki
(a GNU/Open Source wiki), but the HBD server destabilized before
I could do anything meaningful with it...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:14:58 -0500
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Grains of Paradise

Josh:

  I've used Grains of Paradise in addition to Coriander in a Belgian
Wit
and I really like the results.  It gives a Black pepper like flavor
(but
a little milder).  I was inspired by Spanish Peaks White Ale, which
uses
a little black pepper.  I crushed it using a mortar and pestle, and
added
it to the secondary (heat sanitized).  2 Grams in 5 Gal. is a good
starting
Point, I've gone as high as half an ounce.
I've never used Gale.

  On 10 Dec 2003  jOsh tAusCheK <tauscj55 at vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu>
Said:
>I am reading a homebrew catalog that lists Sweet gale and paradise
seed as
>idea for belgian style ales... has anyone used either have these? Are
the
>suitable to use in conjunction with each other?
Snip

Kevin Morgan, Brewing and Meading in South Jersey(USA)




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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:26:46 -0800
From: Torrey Nommesen <torrey at nommesen.com>
Subject: Counter Phil thingy - huh?

I bought the Counter Phil counter pressure bottle filler, and I am
thoroughly confused. I was told that somewhere online I can download
instructions with pictures. Does anybody know of such a site/document? I
read the piece of paper that comes with it and I can't seem to figure it
out.

 -Confused



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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:15:58 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: corny fermenters

I have read here many times how some rack their beer into corny kegs when
within a few points of terminal gravity and let this small final
fermentation carbonate the beer. How is the corny sealed so the natural  gas
produced by this fermentation doesn't escape? Do you just pressurize with
CO2 first? How much pressure can the yeast handle before they stop working?
Patrick




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