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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: First Steps ("Kevin Morgan")
  Walloping Whopping Wollondilly Wombats ("Phil Yates")
  Re: Copper and Sodium Hydroxide (Fred Johnson)
  RE:  Copper and Sodium Hydroxide ("David Houseman")
  HERMS coil ("Patrick Hughes")
  Smart & Final Bar Rinse Disinfectant Sanitizer ("Andy and Tina Bailey")
  Barrels ("William Frazier")
  Link of the Week - Jan 3 2004 - drunk (Bob Devine)
  RE:  Yeast Culture (Bill Tobler)
  removing keg labels ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  Why Do We Use Our Yeasts? ("Phil Yates")
  Re: Copper and Sodium Hydroxide (Bill Tobler)
  re: Of barrels and beer ("-S")
  re: Carbs ("-S")


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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 01:28:08 -0500
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: First Steps

Spenser said

>Unfortunately, this seems to be out of print.  I recently did a web
>search and was unable to find a place still selling it (including the
>AOB/AHA).  I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this -- I thought it
was a
>great book (I have my own copy, I was trying to find one for a
friend.)

=Spencer


A quick Google search reveals that several online HB shops carry it,
including Stoutbillys.com and Morebeer.com

Kevin, brewing and Meading in South Jersey




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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:38:27 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Walloping Whopping Wollondilly Wombats

This is no joke. As if I haven't had enough to worry about, trying to
get my brew house up and running again. As I mentioned to Steve Alexander,
it's a bit like trying to get an old submarine out of moth balls and
operational. Well I've got it serviceable enough to get some basic brewing
underway and I'm nearly on top of the water and electricity problems.

This morning I come out to check on my brew and find a massive Wollondilly
Wombat has tunnelled an even more massive hole right under the foundations
of the brew house! The Wollondilly Wombat is the most obstinate of all
wombats. And he's smart enough to know he's protected by law, so basically
he
can do anything he wants. You're not even allowed to catch them and move
them more than 200 yards from their home. That's real handy given that they
find their way back from up to 20 miles! And the buggers like to have five
or more homes (probably with a wife in every one)!!

I've got Wollondilly Wombat holes all over the property and was going to try
and live with them. But now the bugger is undermining my brew house!

What's a brewer supposed to do?
Stand by and watch his submarine sink like the Titanic?!!
And if so, should the captain go down with his ship? I'll need to stock the
brew fridges for this one.

I have visions of me standing bravely on the Bridge of the Brew House,
drinking a stiff porter whilst sinking into the sunset.
And the band plays Auld Lang Syne
Jill claps hysterically
And Pat breathes a sigh of relief!

I know what Ray Kruse would do. I'm certain his unnatural interest in goats
would not extend to fat fury wombats digging under his brew house.

And it's lucky for wombats that they don't have tails, cause I certainly
know what I'd like to do!

Phil
p.s. Wes, bring on that keg of Hefeweizen, I'm running out of steam.



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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 07:22:43 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Copper and Sodium Hydroxide

Thanks for the responses both on line and off regarding the cleaning 
and storage of my copper counter-flow chiller.

Bill posted:

> Fred wants to clean his CFC with Caustic, a 20% solution.

and

> I believe that breweries use a 2% solution of NaOH to clean their 
> kegs, then
> follow with an acid rinse.  IMO, using a chemical that strong for a 
> "hobby"
> is just not worth it.  I think a 2% solution is reasonable with proper 
> care
> and caution.

Bill missed my statement that I was intending to clean the CFC with a 
5% solution, not 20%,  and to store the chiller in a 0.5% solution. I 
cleaned the chiller a second time with 5% NaOH and only got a very 
faint blue from 45 minutes contact. That is to be compared to the more 
obvious blue achieved during the first cleaning. I believe I must have 
dissolved off some copper salt which caused the blue color, and I'm 
working on the hypothesis that the copper salt is now gone and I'm left 
with bare copper metal, which should be relatively inert to the 
caustic. I've decided to use the 2% NaOH solution that Bill mentions as 
a pretty standard brewhouse cleaning concentration. I'll try storage in 
a 0.2% solution. If I start seeing blue again, I'll know something is 
continuing to be dissolved by the solution and will stop the storage in 
caustic.

By the way, what kind of material is used to solder copper to copper in 
the construction of this thing? Perhaps that should be more of a 
concern than the copper itself.

I also heard off line that Star San contains a mineral acid and 
therefore is NOT recommended for this application.

Others have suggested storing it filled with water. Although I've never 
tried this with anything, I don't like what happens to the vinyl tubing 
that was used somewhere in the brewing process, rinsed well with water 
and left lying on the shelf. Mold shows up in the tubing eventually, 
and they become virtually uncleanable. Of course, vinyl is cheap.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:30:06 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE:  Copper and Sodium Hydroxide

Fred wants to clean his CFC with Caustic, a 20% solution and store the CFC
with a weaker solution.  As Bill points out that is a very strong solution.
But I don't believe even a weaker solution is necessary.  Perhaps an
occasional cleaning, once a year, is justified to rid the CFC of beerstone
but a warm PBW solution would take care of that.  I've found that if I run 5
gallons of boiling water through my CFC prior to use and immediately
following use sanitizes it and then cleans it out prior to storage.  I also
place end caps on the wort line through the chiller to keep out dust and
insects during storage.  Extreme measures aren't necessary IMHO.

Dave Houseman



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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:45:55 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: HERMS coil

Steve Park in HBD 4440 contemplates using a 2 gal. cooler for his HERMs coil
IMO - A 2 gal cooler sounds way too small for a HLT to be used in
conjunction with a HERMS coil. I use a 10 gal  HLT w/ 25' of 1/2" copper,and
want to upgrade to a 15 gal. The water in these bigger tanks is more temp
stable and can easily be heated up to sparge temp. and used for sparging
when ready. I believe bigger is better after using the 10 gal extensively.
15 gal would give you enough sparge water plus some to spare for a 10 gal
batch of beer.
Patrick Hughes




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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:52:10 -0800
From: "Andy and Tina Bailey" <atmlobailey at cox.net>
Subject: Smart & Final Bar Rinse Disinfectant Sanitizer

I was in a local Smart and Final (like a cross between Sams club and a
resturant supply place in the SW US) and saw that they had gallon jugs of
Smart & Final Bar Rinse Disinfectant Sanitizer for ~$7. The label said it
was no rinse and at a concentration of 1 ounce to 4 gallons of water
required only a 1-2 minute contact time. Unfortunately, I don't remember the
active ingredient. I realize without knowing the name of the active
ingredient that you can't comment on its appropriateness for brewing, but
does anyone use the stuff or something like it with any success? Can it be
used like StarSan? Is it safe for contact with copper, brass, or stainless?

Andy
in Las Vegas



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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:12:43 -0600
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Barrels

Lots of talk about using oak barrels for beer lately.
If you must have a barrel check out www.gibbsbrothers.com/.
They make paraffin lined barrels from 1 to 30 gallon in size.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:09:50 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the Week - Jan 3 2004 - drunk

If you did the typical toast or three on New Year's, you might
feel the effect of alcohol.  What causes the deleterious effects?

The gene for the pathway is just getting solved by genetic researchers 
at the wonderfully named "Ernest Gallo Clinic":
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article2090.html

The biologic reasons are pretty well understood and come from multiple 
reasons:

First, alcohol is a diuretic. In fact, you lose far more water in your 
urine than you are taking in the drink itself. Dehydration causes the 
brain to shrink away from the skull slightly. This triggers pain sensors 
on the outside surface of your brain.

Second, slcohol lowers your blood sugar levels as glucose is excreted in 
the urine. Along with the late night, this contributes to extensive 
yawning the following day.

Third, free radicals are harmful molecules formed in the liver as it 
struggles to break down ethanol. Usually, these are handled by an 
anti-oxidant called glutathione but its reserves can run low after a 
drinking session.

Finally, vital electrolytes such as magnesium and potassium are excreted 
from the body with the urine. These minerals help keep the heart beating 
and dangerous cardiac arrhythmias can occur after heavy drinking.

BTW, how much alcohol is too much?  You will be amazed at this story:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&e=3&u=/nm/drunk_dc

Bob Devine


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Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 17:16:31 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  Yeast Culture

If anyone is looking for Pierre Rajotte's book "First steps in Yeast
Culture"  Williams Brewing carries it.  At least, it's still on their web
page.  I bought a copy last year.

http://www.williamsbrewing.com/AB1605000/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=41&C
ATID=3

You will have to paste the second line onto the back of the first.  If the
link don't work, go to

http://www.williamsbrewing.com   then click on Books & More, then choose
Intermediate to Advanced.  It will be on that list.

Cheers!!

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:30:08 -0500
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: removing keg labels

Greetings!

Any suggestions for removing lables that are glued onto stainless steel 
Corny kegs? I've been soaking in an ammonia solution for several days 
(which works well for bottle labels, BTW) but this doesn't seem to help.

TIA for your help.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syrause, NY
<http://hbd.org/ensmingr>




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Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:22:39 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Why Do We Use Our Yeasts?

The Southern Highlands of NSW is a cool climate wine producing area. We are
surrounded locally by wineries here at "Maple Downs" and now the area can
boast having its own Brew House, sinking though it is, run by a berserk
baron.

One of the local wine makers told me he had been experimenting with making
his own beer. He was pretty sure he didn't need to learn much, being an
experienced wine maker. He told me he couldn't understand why we muck around
using so many different yeasts to make beer. He simply used what he had in
the winery.

He makes great wine. I'm damn glad he didn't ask me to try his beer!!
I can see I'm going to be very busy around here educating experienced wine
makers. I was going to ask him "What mash temp do you use on your grapes?"
But thought better of it.

Phil



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Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:59:38 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Copper and Sodium Hydroxide

The other day, Fred said:

"Bill missed my statement that I was intending to clean the CFC with a
5% solution, not 20%,  and to store the chiller in a 0.5% solution."
snip...

Fred, I must have read right past that.  I saw 20% and must have quit
reading. Sorry bout that. I agree that you're dissolving Copper, but it will
probably happen every time.  It's no big deal as long as you rinse every
time, I think.  I stored some StarSan in the chiller overnight once, just
before brew day and it was green when I pushed it out.  So I didn't do that
again. (Actually, I think the green came out of the smaller secondary
chiller after the CFC, I have to do extra chilling to get it down to 50
degrees.)  Like you, I have heard of people storing their CFC's in StarSan
with no problems.  I think I'll stick to running some StarSan through it for
10 minutes or so and then blow it out with CO2.

You could make a solution up and just put some copper parts in and watch it
for a few days?  Maybe I'll try it too and we could compare notes.  Let me
know.  

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:16:46 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Of barrels and beer

Michael Grice kindly responds,

>Steve, you're making the assumption that all oxidation is bad. In
>wine, low amounts of controlled oxidation seem to be beneficial for
>aging. Evaporation from oak barrels also seems to do a nice job of
>concentrating flavors (assuming you top off the wine, of course).

I have to say that the statement that a little oxidation is good for wine is
very questionable but may have some evidence to support it.   IMO the aging
with limited transpiration primarily benefits wine in that it allows the
evaporation of certain nasty volatiles.   I drink a lot of wine these days
(and for the past 2+ decades) and I've never noticed any flavor problem
introduce by modern lower-O2 processing.  Some fortified and
specialty wines depend on oxidation, but that's a very special case.

>My
>hypothesis is that this would also be beneficial for any beer which
>requires a little aging.

The unsupported extrapolation that beer can use a little oxidation is
almost certainly wrong.  Beer and wine have vastly different levels of
different anti-oxidants and different oxidisable flavor constituents.
*EVERY* study shows that beer flavor quality and stability is
damaged by post fermentation oxygen - no exceptions !

Lambics with other fungal and bacterial ferments are certainly a
special case, I'll cede.  Spencer mentions an interesting traditional
(specialty) beer with oak flavor too.

I don't think the strong tannic flavors that come from small new
barrels (small means more oak surface per unit volume) "work" in
any beer.  I also don't think oak tannins are of any value at all (except
negative value) in the common styles of ale and lager. Aging anything
for 120 days in a new-ish 5gal bbl will certainly produce more tannins
than anyone would tolerate - wine or beer.  That's a personal opinion
'course.  There may be special exceptions but extensive oak contact
time for typical run of ales is not a good thing IMO.  It is not
traditional - otherwise old breweries wouldn't have gone to the
trouble and expense of covering barrels and fermenter interiors with
pitch.  Obviously they disliked the oak flavor.

>I do think a little oak might be nice in a porter (assuming
> it were subtle).

Then try some winemakers charred oak "beans" or a charred oak stick.
A  barrel is an expensive thing to experiment with when the flavor impact
is so very un-subtle in beer.  I think you'll find that the tannins get very
off-putting before any smoke-y vanilla becomes evident.   A porter or
most ales have no place to hide these tannic flavors compared to a
cabernet.

Like the pepper-beer thread - this is only my personal opinion of
beer flavor.

 -S




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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:53:41 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Carbs

Bill "NO Spam" posts on an article in the "Mid-Atlantic
Brewing News".. He quotes  ...

<<
"One website I consulted lists Michelob Ultra as
having 2.6 grams of carbs and 95 calories per
standard 12 oz serving.  Miller Light, by
comparison, has 3.2 grams of carbohydrates and
96 calories.  That means if you switch from
a regular light beer to Ultra, you're saving
a mere 0.6 carbs and just one calorie.
[...]"
>>

This M-A BN article is misinformed malarkey !

Miller-lite and MichUltra are both examples of very low carbohydrate beers -
what Kunze calls "dietetic" beers.   These are correctly differentiated from
lower-calorie "light" beers like Sam Adams Light at 9.7 grams of carbs per
bottle or Mich Light at 11.7 grams of carbs per bottle. [A regular SA lager
is 18 grams, and Mich 13.3 ].

If you switch from "regular light" to dietetic beers you are likely saving
some 7 grams of carbs per bottle.  If you are trying to keep daily carbo
intake under 50 grams per day, this difference is a *big* issue.

Here is a nice list of some common commercial beers
http://www.beer100.com/beercalories.htm

I wish I had a carbo listing for low OG, well attenuated beers like
Newcastle Brown and Bass.

 -S




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