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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  starter trub (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: On bulk aging v bottle aging (Alan Semok)
  Re: Invert Sugar and Wollondilly Fauna (Jeff Renner)
  re: Bulk Aging ("Jay Spies")
  Re: creating clear canned wort (Matthew Riggs)
  AFC Homebrew Competition ("Chad Stevens")
  RE: Bottling Beer ("Ronald La Borde")
  RE: creating clear canned wort ("Ronald La Borde")


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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:21:10 -0500
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: starter trub

Rob is still worried about the trub in his starters.  I agree that it is a
problem.  

I have tried decanting followed by re-autoclaving/pCooking.  This just
generates more trub.  I also tried to digest the protein before pCooking
with papain (meat tenderizer).  This did nothing.  If you were to spend a
great deal of time and money you could probably work out a way to digest the
protein with good enzymes (I have always been skeptical that the dry powder
in the supermarket contains much activity).

I think there are only two options: 
1) decant, which isn't really that much work.  I'm not sure what you mean by
making the starter in bulk vs. when you need it.  pCook the empty container
along with the the one with the wort so both will be sterile when you need
them.  You can pCook the wort in a small container since it needs little
headspace.

2) use laboratory media.  I do this for my yeast handling but not for the
final starter, since I try to avoid ingesting lab products on principal.  If
you really want a clear starter this is the way to go.  I use YPM which is
IIRC 2% peptone, 1% yeast extract, and 2% maltose.  This stuff is expensive.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy


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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:44:22 -0500
From: Alan Semok <asemok at mac.com>
Subject: Re: On bulk aging v bottle aging

At 8:30 AM -0500 1/9/04, "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com> wrote:
>...For aged beers like barleywines and imperial stouts...is there a 
>general preference for aging in bulk rather than in bottles once the 
>residual extract has stabilized? ...
>So, should I bottle my Xmas 04 barleywine now and let it age, or 
>leave it in a carboy until Thanksgiving?


I come out of lurk mode for a topic dear to my heart...
I would go for the bulk aging, no question about it.  Since I brew 
quite a bit, I routinely long age age my beers and rarely if ever 
consume any brew I've made that hasn't had at least four to six to 
eight weeks of aging. I keep strong ales (IPA, Barleywine, Scotch 
Ale, etc)  in glass or Corny Kegs for up to a year (and more in the 
case of my IPA).  The final stop for all my beers is Corny Kegs, with 
the resulting crystal clear beers being slowly fore carbonated to 
appropriate levels after that final racking.
I wouldn't even think of consuming ANY of those until they have a year on them.

I also have lots of mead in various stages of bulk aging...I even 
have a Tupelo/Orange Blossom batch made in 1990 that is still in a 
carboy and have no intention of bottling it until it is 15 years old. 
The samples I've tasted with a wine thief indicate no problems...in 
fact, it has the wonderfully full, luscious taste of a vintage 6 
puttony Hungarian Tokaji wine.

If you're careful about sanitation and careful about the absolutely 
essential task purging air from your carboys with co2  when you rack 
(my long aged beers typically get four rackings), you'll have no 
problems.  To the contrary, you will likely be amazed.

In any case, you're right on track with the idea of long aging your beers.
I've found that many homebrewers (even long time ones) can be an 
impatient lot.  The added benefit of proper aging makes such an 
impact on the finished product that the tasting experience can be a 
revelation.  I started brewing in 1971, and it wasn't till much later 
that I came to what should have been this obvious conclusion.

So, patience is indeed a virtue (sometimes difficult)...the answer is 
to brew clean, and brew a LOT so that you have stuff to age.
And save me a bottle.
cheers, all...
AL


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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:01:30 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Invert Sugar and Wollondilly Fauna

Wes Smith <wsmith at rslcom.net.au> suggested

>Jeff Renner may care to comment on Trimoline use in the US.

Not familiar with it, but then, I bake only French bread, so I'm not 
familiar with products for the general bakery trade.

I should have thought, though, that my supplier very likely carries 
bulk invert sugar before I schlepped a 5 liter 7.25 kg jug of Tates 
Golden Syrup in my back pack back from England last September.  I got 
it for a good price (5 UKP?) at a Costco just east of London.  Much 
cheaper than $4.00+ for a 500 gram tin here in the States.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:49:46 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: re: Bulk Aging

All -

Several of the esteemed collective have chimed in with their thoughts on
bulk aging of higher strength fermentables vs. bottle aging.  Thought I'd
chime in with my recent discovery to that end...

Was recently cleaning out the basement pursuant to SWMBO's directive and
stumbled across a keg secreted away within the larger pile that was full.
How I managed to misplace a full keg of anything is a question that leaves
me scratching my apparently empty noggin.  However, attaching a picnic tap,
I found that it was a peach melomel that, according to my disjointed brewing
records, was over three years old.  I recall that the reason I secreted it
away like an alcoholic chipmunk was that it, for lack of a more eloquent
term, sucked, and being a cheap ass, I could not bear to ditch it.  Very hot
and not altogether palatable at that time.  When I tasted it anew, after
discarding a pint or two until it ran clear, I found it to be one of the
best meads I have yet made.  Not long after that batch, I had made another
traditional mead which I bottled (found it acceptably tasty at that time)
and still had some of.  Comparing the originally nasty bulk aged mead to the
then tasty bottle conditoned mead back to back after three years of storage,
I found the bulk aged mead to be much more melded, lacking in oxidation, and
with a much fuller mouthfeel.  It also retained MUCH more honey character.
Also, it had self-carbonated.

Granted, meads usually hold up much better with age than do beers, but this
is the only relevant datapoint that I have, as I tend to drink my beers too
fast for them to "age" much beyond the state of acceptable carbonation.  ;)

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:57:38 -0600
From: Matthew Riggs <braumeister at cox.net>
Subject: Re: creating clear canned wort

Rob Dewhirst states:

	"So I am still searching for a solution to reduce the amount of 		trub 
in my canned starters."

I have the same problem. Next time I am going to first boil the whole 
mess of wort to seperate some of the hot break. Then I am going to cool 
it, then can as usual. I know it seems like a bit of work, but it is not 
that much more and I only use the jars once, when canning.

I might experiment and skip the cooling to see how much trub I get out 
with just the hot break. Will let you know how it goes.
- -- 
Matthew Riggs in San Angelo, TX




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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:20:39 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: AFC Homebrew Competition

Being one of the "Dissed," I'll try this again:

It is my pleasure to announce online registration is now open for the
"America's Finest City Homebrew Competition" in San Diego, California.
Entries will be accepted February 9th through 20th and judging will be held
February 27th and 28th.

Many of those judging this competition will be judging western region first
round nationals as well.  This is a good competition to use as a guide for
placement of those hard to define brews.

In the interest of saving bandwidth, here's the url:

www.quaff.org/afc2004/AFCHBC.html

Questions or problems with the site?  Please contact me:

zuvaruvi at cox.net

Thanks and Good Luck!

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego



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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:20 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Bottling Beer

>From: "Jim Dunlap" <jdpils at comcast.net>
>
>I have an accurate scale which I have measured 3/4 cups of sugar to
weigh
>about 100 - 110 grams.  The accuracy is in the measurement.  I figure
50
>bottles per 5 gal carboy which is topped to the neck.  So 2 grams per
bottle
>is my usual amount.  For those looking for lower levels about 1.5
grams
>should work.

I have not seen much suggestion in the way of using liquid sugar for
this purpose. I am thinking about dissolving the 3/4 cup of sugar in
some amount of the finished beer to be bottled. I would use, say,
about 640 ml of the beer and dissolve the sugar into it. Now I can use
a syringe to suck up enough of this to inject into each bottle.

Why use 640 milliliters?  Well, if a gallon is 128 oz, then 5 gallons
would be 640 ounces.  So if I dissolve the amount of sugar that is
supplied with a kit, or the amount I figure is needed to carbonate the
whole 5 gallon batch, then I can just use 1 ml for each ounce of beer
to be carbonated. So if I have a 12 ounce bottle, I suck up and inject
12 ml into the bottle. If I have a 20 oz bottle, then 20 ml , etc.

I must admit I have not tried this yet, but I plan to. Last time I
counterpressure filled, it was a mess.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:10:11 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: creating clear canned wort

>from: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
>
>2) Decant to another container.
>
>That defeats the purpose of pressure canning in bulk, which in the
end
>saves much time and mess.  If I must sanitize another container
(which
>then must ALSO be cleaned afterwards) to make a starter, it is
>marginally more effort to just make the starter from scratch at the
time I
>need it.

When I can the starter wort, it's usually about a 1.040 S. G., so I
take a clean flask, put in the stirrer magnet, and the same amount of
water that the starter volume is. Then I boil this for 5 minutes or
so. I do not need to watch it because the water will not boil over or
foam up.  Then afterwards I add the starter wort, cover with foil,
cool, pitch, and stir. This seems easy and gives me a starter S. G. of
1.020, which seems to be what most reccomend.

I agree to not use the residue in the bottom of the canned wort. Just
smell it and see if you want that in your beer.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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