HOMEBREW Digest #4455 Mon 19 January 2004

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  Re: uh-oh, ya got him started... ("-S")
  RE: purging ("-S")
  RE: Yeast ranching ("Steve Jones")
  Brewing with Sugar, citrus vs cidery (John Palmer)
  Brewing software ("Dave Draper")
  Yeast Ranching and Pressure Cooker (val.dan.morey)
  my barleywine (Ed Jones)
  Link of the week - Jan 17, 2004 (Bob Devine)
  Re: Motorizing a JSP MaltMill ("Richard Schmittdiel")
  sparge arm? (Stan Gammons)
  dropped rubber stopper in carboy - should I be concerned? (Dave Clark)
  Pressure Cookers and Cerial Mash, MCAB (Bill Tobler)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:20:55 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: uh-oh, ya got him started... Wes says, > I did stress the point that "light" beers in Australia are LOW alcohol, NOT > low calorie Mea culpa - I misread. == > He stated all yeast cells contain invertase, > however the quantity of invertase varied greatly between strains (of > yeast). In the 36% sucrose ferment scenario he said there would be > insufficient invertase to invert the sucrose and the yeast would have to go > off and produce the necessary extra invertase to "complete" the job. That's an erroneous understanding of enzymes. Enzymes are catalysts, and their amount determines RATE, not AMOUNT of source or product catalyzed. Your explanation is inconsistent with basic facts. Let's consider the rate. Given that many brewing yeasts will convert 3P of sucrose in 20 minutes, another yeast that produces a fraction of 1% of this amt of invertase would be require to leave any residual sucrose after a normal fermentation period. Far more likely, and well described in the literature, is than worts with high levels of fructose, glucose or hydrolyzed sucrose exhibit catabolite repression which, in the extreme case, halts fermentation. ===== > We > discussed the optimal conditions for invertase and confirmed my belief that > pH 4.5 and 50C were the ideal - certainly not a very healthy temperature > for a brewing yeast! First - there is no such thing as optimal or ideal temperature unless the time period of the observation is also noted. Unspecified temperature optima haven't been used in enzymology lit for approximately 60 years, nor the pro brewing lit for many decades. This implies a serious misunderstanding of basics by your source. The pH optima of 4.5 is consistent with fermentation conditions, given invertase's broad pH activity curve. To quote http://greenwoodhealth.net/np/invertase.htm "contrary to most other enzymes,[yeast] invertase exhibits relatively high activity over a broad range of pH (3.5--5.5), with the optimum near pH=4.5.". Invertase remains quite active over the entire pH range from unpitched wort to beer. Furthermore yeast invertase is extremely stable over a wider pH range yet, and at higher than normal fermentation temp (30C) for periods of days. http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/263/18/8827 ==== > Sorry Steve, but I am dead right about the costs. I am talking about the > Aussie market - you are talking about the US market and they are not the > same. NO ! Wes made up a fallacious sources for my data - and didn't even bother to look. The figures I quoted are "World refined sugar prices" from the spot market. http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/sugar/Data/Table02.xls . In late 2003 the delivered price to Europe was about 9.5 cents/lb and the DELIVERED price of Australian refined cane to Asia was about 10.3c/lb. These figures have NO RELATION to the US domestic price (round 24c/lb - elevated due to tariffs and price supports). Price distortions plague the sugar trade. The US has sugar price supports & tariffs which raise domesic prices and make beet production tenable - all for domestic consumption. The EU has farm subsidies which allow beet sugar, at a production cost of 28+c/lb to be exported on the world market for around 10c/lb !! The EU combined is the largest sugar exporter on the planet and it's completly uneconomic. World sugar price is vastly depressed due to this sort of market manipulation. It is estimated the WORLD sugar production cost averages 15c/lb, whle world HFCS averages 13c/lb. Both are sold internationally at a depressed 10c-11c/lb. While the US domestic cost of HFCS is a reasonable markup from 13c/lb, sugar is vastly higher. Oz exports some 4M tons of cane sugar on the world market at world market prices around 10c/lb. Their cost of production is over the world average 15c/lb and is highly subsidized and internally trade is taxed. If the brewing industry could pay world market price for sugar (which is below production cost) then that is most attractive. Otherwise HFCS (or cheaper glucose syrup) is clearly more attractive as adjunct. ========== > Talk to the > brewer and he will tell you that there is no cost advantage today in using > sucrose syrup over malt even if he could, 1/ What is sucrose syrup ? That's new to this discussion. 2/ Sucrose more expensive than malt - that's unlikely unless you guys have radical price supports. You can get Brazilian sugar delivered to Russia for 11 cents a pound (and that's 100% extract). Malt would have to cost ~7.7c/lb ($4.25US/25kg) to match that. *Maybe* you have a sugar price subsidy as high as the US and the price is 24c/lb. Can you really get malt for for a matching $9.25US/25kg (minus the cost of mashing) ? That's cheap, tho' possible *if* your price supports are very high and your malt prices very low. 3/ Aside from Mexico starch hydrosylate tarrifs and barriers are rare and price is almost always competitive. Based on economic considerations alone - starch hydrosylate is far cheaper than sugar or malt. == > These plants are strategically located in each > state to be able to service the various state based breweries. There is no > way adjunct suppliers can compete when they have to haul their product from > one side of the country to the other, [...] Oh c'mon - I suppose they grow the malting barley on the north side of these plants and put up breweries on the south side to avoid shipping costs too ? This proposition is ridiculous unless Oz has the worst transportation infrastructure on the planet. It costs around 3c/lb to deliver sugar from Brazil to Russia by bulk ship. I just used an online calculator (http://www.freight-calculator.com/apxocean.asp) to see it would cost me 4.6c/lb to ship *one* 60k-lb container load of palletized malt from Chicago to Brisbane ! If you can't ship bulk rail across Oz for pennies something is very wrong. Energy to dry malt costs more than shipping it halfway around the planet. === Just to get back to basics - I have no doubt that simple sugars in high ratios impact flavor and fermentation- that's not at issue. There is certainly a case to be made in favor of low DE hydrolyzed starch for added dextrin body in beer. My point is only that off-citrus flavor is not directly attributable to high sucrose level and theories to explain it remain unsupported speculation. Aside from mutants without invertase, I see nothing in the literature searches that suggests that sucrose inversion among brewing yeast is ever anything but rapid. If you can find Andy Walsh, he posted on this topic to HBD a number of years ago - using rapid sucrose inversion as a quick test of yeast viability as I recall. If you can ID (and I can find) a supposedly low-invertase yeast I'd be more than willing to test it's performance against others. Wes - let's take this pricing issue off-line. I'd really like to hear about Aussie wholesale market prices - but it's not really Hbrewing I think. thanks, -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:59:11 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: RE: purging Leo Vitt asks, >Question: HOW do you get that last tiny bit of air out of the keg? Most of my cornies have the more domed plastic lids w/ the relief valves in the top. Easy to fill w/ the valve out. Otherwise you can fill to the extent possible and add enough CO2 to displace the small air-pockets before CO2-displacing liquid. >Next question: Which is a bigger problem; A tiny bit of air, or a >tiny bit of sanitizer mixed into the beer? Someone used to have a website where he demonstrated that a significant amount of iodophor was undetectable in beer. Hard to believe but I guess that's why it's no-rinse. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:21:37 -0500 From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net> Subject: RE: Yeast ranching Good morning, Campers! I've been yeast ranching for about 7 years. I got started back when I brewed extract, and belonged to a 'kit of the month' club. I bought blank agar slants from Grape & Granary, and innoculated them from my Wyeast smakpak from the kits. Over the years since I have accumulated 22 strains, and have begun making my own slants. One problem that can occur is condensation in the slants. The Agar media will begin gelling as the temperature drops to about 40 or 45C. Allowing the boiled media to cool to around 50-55C before pouring and capping the slants will minimize the condensation that forms. I just made a batch of 100 slants (13 x 100 mm) last week Here is how I do it for 3.5 ml media in each slant: 350 ml water 10 gr DME boil vigorously chill (to precipitate trub) and strain thru coffee filter add 5 gr Agar flakes, stirring as you add them. boil again (very susceptible to boilovers), keeping it topped up to about 350 ml let cool down to about 50-60C pour into culture tubes in rack and cap the tubes Pour about 1 - 1.5" of water into the pressure canner. Add some kind of rack so that your test tube rack is above the water level. Set rack into pressure canner on it's side, propping it up a bit so that the tubes are on a slant. I used an 8" length of 1/2" OD copper tubing. With valve open, heat until steam steadily shoots out of the valve. Close valve, bring up to 15psi for 20 minutes. Allow to cool, but be sure to open the valve when the pressure hits zero to prevent a vacuum from forming. For information on lab procedures check out the Brewing Science Institute (http://www.brewingscience.com/). They have a great online handbook that explains lots of different procedures. The also sell media and plates - I just bought a bottle of prepared sterile media and 30 sterile disposable plates so that I can plate out my 22 strains to check for any contamination. Steve Jones Johnson City, TN [421.8, 168.5] AR http://hbd.org/franklin Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 07:45:14 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Brewing with Sugar, citrus vs cidery I have gotten behind on my HBDs and just caught up with the sugar thread this morning. My first question is to Steve, you say there is an "obvious" difference between table sugars made from beets vs. cane? I wish I had read that last weekend because I was just back home in Midland last weekend (tacked on to a business trip) and could have smelled the sugar bowl. Out here in California, every thing is cane sugar. Maybe I can have my Mom mail me a bag of Big Chief so I can do a side by side. When I was researching my Brewing With Sugars article recently, the sugar industry web resources stated that table sugar is so highly refined that there was no difference in taste between cane or beet sources and I accepted that. Be interesting to verify that for myself. Secondly, define citrusy flavors from high sucrose worts versus cidery flavors. I am familiar with cidery but have not tasted anything I would describe as citrusy. I don't suppose this is a translational difference? like skunky versus catty flavor for light struck beers? I recently did a side by side brew where I had 3 Coopers Draught Ale extract kits, 2 new -from the same lot, and one that was 3 years old. I made one of the new kits with 1 kg of table sugar, and one with 1 kg of dry malt extract. The old kit was also made with 1 kg of dry malt extract. All were fermented with new packets (same lot) of Coopers dry yeast. The New kit made with 1 kg of Sugar had the most cidery character, not as bad as some I have had, but definitely there in smell and taste. The Old kit made with 1 kg of extract had a pronounced apple fruitiness to it, but not exactly cidery. The New kit with 1 kg of extract had no excessive fruitiness to it. Tasted pretty normal. John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:02:51 -0700 From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name> Subject: Brewing software Dear Friends, Andy from Hillsborough asks about brewing software, and specifically the newer version of Suds. I've used Suds for many years, and finally upgraded from v. 4 to the latest version mid-last year when I restarted my brewing ops here in the Land of Enchantment. I'm quite happy with it. One of its features I have adopted is its inventory pages, replacing the Excel sheet I used to have to update by hand. Very convenient. I get very consistent results in bittering, gravity, and color from the algorithms it uses (and in particular hop utilization is editable so you can fine tune the IBU calc for your own system). After a few mashes, I arrived at a value for thermal mass for use in the mash calc module (mine turns out to be 0.5) and since then I hit my temp targets spot on using the calculated infusion amounts and temperatures. There is, however, one bug currently present: if using metric units (which any rational, sane person would be doing :-)) and doing a third infusion, the amounts of water calculated are wacky. This was the case even for the second infusion when I first got my v. 6 (simple unit conversion error), but an email to the author Mike Taylor had that resolved within hours, so I expect the same will be true when I get around to bringing this to his attention too. I recall that during the 4.0 days when Mike was first adding the ability to choose between various sets of hop utilization values, there were a bug or two in that which I came across, and he fixed those instantly too-- a friendly and responsible software author for my money. Bottom line, I like it a lot, its user interface suits my style and I can count on getting what I'm aiming at when I rely on its calculations. Standard disclaimers apply, I own no stock, just a satisfied customer, blah blah blah. Cheers, Dave in ABQ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico David at Draper dot Name Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html ...I drink cool ale... ---Kirk Fleming Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:15:02 -0600 From: val.dan.morey at juno.com Subject: Yeast Ranching and Pressure Cooker There certainly nothing wrong with using a pressure cooker to sterilize slants and plates. However, I believe the risk is low with plates and slants. Unlike canned starters, plates and slants are in an aerobic condition. Maximum yeast growth occurs best in aerobic conditions. Canned starters are essential void of air (oxygen), and is in a vacuum. The steam produced during canning displaces the air and when it cools the lid seals preventing air from entering the jar. It is the spores produced in the absence of air that form toxin. See link below: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5567.html Pressure cooker for canned starters, ABSOLUTELY in my opinion. Pressure cooker for plants and slants, questionable. After all, how many of us pressure can our beer? I would call beer a low pH food. Prost! Dan Morey Club B.A.B.B.L.E. http://hbd.org/babble [213.1, 271.5] mi Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:26:00 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com> Subject: my barleywine For this year's barleywine I used Nottingham yeast. That was the first time I've ever used dry yeast. I pitched three 11gram sachets into 5 gallons of 1.120 BW. I checked the gravity today and it was 1.026. Wow! It has been 16 days since I brewed it. Add me to the ranks of dry yeast fans. I was afraid I'd have to pitch some champagne yeast to finish but that clearly isn't necessary. Mr. Wibble, one of the packs I pitched was from you, back when you sent us a free sachet of dry yeast. I promised I'd post an update. It's too early to say much about taste, but I think it'll be just fine. However, I'm thinking I should have gone for a little more IBUs. My BU:GU ratio is about 0.33 (39 IBU). According to Daniels in "Designing Great Beers" Bigfoot is around 0.75 BU:GU (80 IBU for 1.106 GU), which I find too high for my tastes. I'm thinking after I let the BW age for about a year I'll try adding some of that isomerized hop extract one drop at a time in a glass of BW to determine the BU:GU that works for me. Ed ===== Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian "When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment, I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery." - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:25:06 -0700 From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Link of the week - Jan 17, 2004 Some beer & health links: Beer belly? Sorry, it isn't from beer says a study: http://www.phs.utoronto.ca/courses/beer_obesity.pdf (original research paper) <http://www.phs.utoronto.ca/courses/beer_obesity.pdf> http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-002041.php (short review) But it might be from your genes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/2636509.stm And beer can be part of a healthy diet: http://www.canoe.ca/HealthNews/980205_jones.html Science marches on! An anti-aging beer is on the way http://www.xtramsn.co.nz/health/0,,7998-2987222,00.html Bob Devine Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:26:32 -0800 From: "Richard Schmittdiel" <schmitrw at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Motorizing a JSP MaltMill Bill at No Spam notes that motorizing a JSP MaltMill does void the warranty. True enough. But a visit to the JSP site (http://schmidling.netfirms.com/barebone.htm) clearly shows photos of his mills having been motorized. Makes me think that it's a CYA on his part, and that the mill is plenty sturdy enough to work just fine behind a motor. I just recently wrapped up a project to motorize my own JSP mill. Now I'm dieing to brew again so that I can see how well it works. For the record, here's how I did mine: I used a Chicago Electric 1/2" variable-speed drill, #47991-VGA at $29.99 from HarborFreight (www.harborfreight.com) and a spider coupling #6408K14 with hub 6408K95 at $23.66 from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) to motorize my JSP mill. Some scrap pieces of lumber, a bit of 3/8" steel bar, and a little time spent with the Skillsaw and the paint brush, and voila, a motorized malt mill. Photos available upon request via private email. Rich Schmittdiel Possum Holler Brewery in Southern California Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:12:25 -0600 From: Stan Gammons <s_gammons at charter.net> Subject: sparge arm? I just started making beer using the all grain method. My first batch was an Oatmeal Stout and it turned out pretty well considering it was my first attempt. Slowly pouring the hot sparge water over the grain a quart at a time is the way I sparged the first batch. As everyone know, that is a pain. I've seen the Phil's sparge arm and was wondering how well it works? Has anyone made something similar, rotating or stationary that works just as well? I've thought about making a circular shaped sparge arm and using a Gott or Rubbermaid cooler with a ball valve on it as the HLT. Anyone else made something along these lines? If so, how well does it work? Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:33:41 -0500 From: Dave Clark <wurly153 at stny.rr.com> Subject: dropped rubber stopper in carboy - should I be concerned? In my hurry to get beer into a carboy and off to the hockey game I pushed a rubber stopper down into the carboy full of beer. Will the rubber effect the beer? Should I rack it over into another carboy or just leave it alone? I'm inclined to leave it alone. I feel the risk of contamination is probably higher then any effect the runnber will have on the beer. other opinions? Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:18:33 -0600 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Pressure Cookers and Cerial Mash, MCAB Hi everybody! Hope everyone had a good weekend. I seem to remember someone (Jeff?) posting last year about doing a cereal mash (cornmeal/Polenta and malt) in a large pressure cooker. I'd like to try this and was looking for some information on water ratios and cooking time. Was there any scorching problems? Any and all info will be instantly absorbed. Anyone planning on going to the MCAB this year? http://hbd.org/mcab/ It looks like it should be a good time. I'm trying to swing a free ride on the company shuttle to Midland and then spend the weekend. Our club will have four beers entered and it would be nice to have someone there to pick up the medals. :=) Cheers!! Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian I wonder how far Warren, Michigan is from (0,0)? Return to table of contents
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