HOMEBREW Digest #4482 Mon 23 February 2004


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Contents:
  Re: your hbd post ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  Garden Hose in brewing? (Pat Babcock)
  Starters ("William Frazier")
  re: Palmer's new product announcement ("Chad Stevens")
  Link of the week - Feb 21, 2004 (Bob Devine)
  homebrewing in prison (ivey)
  mass flow meters ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: mass flow meters ("-S")
  Re: mass flow meters ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Agar substitute ("Steve Alexander")
  Purposely underpitching yeast/repitching (ILRI)" <r.kruska@cgiar.org>
  Back on your horse, pilgrim! ("Guy Gregory")
  Cheap Conicals from Toledo Metal Spinning (Dean)
  Re: Using hose in home brewing (Tim Howe)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:30:12 -0500 From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com> Subject: Re: your hbd post Calvin recently posted some very negative opinions about the use of garden Ho's in brewing. I can state unequivocally there is nothing wrong with garden Ho's. In fact, one of the best Ho's I ever had was a white Ho garden from Belgium. This Ho was very light and refreshing and didn't taste anything like plastic or lead. Based on my experience, ain't nobody can Ho like a Ho garden. Cheerio! Peter - ------------ For those considering using garden hose for any brewing, there is recent, reliable info that many (or most) typical garden hose brands contain lead as a "binder" in the PVC. I'm not usually one to worry about minor dangers, but if the lead is way above health standards from cold water sitting in the hose, then hot wort would be a worry. But besides that, don't you remember those hot summer days when you grab a quick drink from the garden hose, and...phew, yuck! Too quick! Nasty plastic taste! Lead or not, you don't want that taste in your beer. Use food-grade hose for anything touching hot liquor, beer, or wort. Calvin Perilloux Middletown, Maryland, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:27:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Garden Hose in brewing? Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lingerie... All this talk of using garden hose while brewing! I tried wearing my wife's garden hose while brewing (oddly similar to all the other hosiery she wears...) and found it most constricting - uncomfortably so! I recommend NOT wearing hose while brewing. :^) Seriously, though: I use RV hose for transporting brewing water from the spigot to the HLT. It is made for the transport of potable water, is not cost prohibitive, and serves me well. But, I must stat that in my youth, I drank deeply from the flowing water of the Garden Hose at every opportunity (despite the parental warnings regarding hepatitus and myriad other hose-borne diseases). I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine whether there have been any deleterious effects... Between pots, I've been in the habit of using washing machine hookups (armored hose). This thread begs the question: is lead involved in the manufacture of the interior hose of these beasties? Maybe not, since hoses made throuhg a similar process are used to hook up sinks; however, I still wonder... - -- - God bless America! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor at hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock [18, 92.1] Rennerian "I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle" - Arlo Guthrie Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:39:26 -0600 From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Starters Jeff wrote; "Dan McConnell of the late Yeast Culture Kit Co. recommended 50 grams (malt) per liter (plus a bit of yeast nutrient - 1/8 tsp per gallon)....and... Wyeast recommends a starter gravity of 1.020-1.030." Here's a pretty good way to make starter wort. I stop sparging at brix 5 (about SG 1020). There's always some wort left in the mash tun. While the main wort heats to a boil I drain this low gravity, "waste wort" into quart mason jars. I get 1 to 2 jars per batch. I pressure cook these jars of starter wort like Jeff suggested. This low-gravity starter wort has very little trub in it so you end up with quart jars of pretty clean wort. It's easy, fast and no extra expense. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:54:29 -0800 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: re: Palmer's new product announcement John Palmer's shameless add: "Subject: New Product Announcement: HBRC Hi Group, Just wanted to let everyone know that my Home Brewing Recipe Calculator is now available (since December really) at several brewshops around the country...." My shameless endorsement (no affiliation yada yada): Mr. Palmer was nice enough to ship me a box of books and "Home Brewing Recipe Calculators" to give out as gifts for America's Finest City Homebrew Competition this year (don't send any more entries, we're over 400 and you're too late anyway). Having played with his slide rule (no comments from the peanut gallery), I can say with some authority, it's way groovy. I've got printouts of IBU tables and am always making manual calculations during the boil to figure out what additions I want to make. A fairly painless task once you get the hang of it. However, Palmer's slide rule comes up with essentially the same values in no time at all and with no effort whatsoever. Very simple, very nice. And the gravity calculator magically does stuff that has always been a pain in the rear for me (fire up the computer, log onto excel, get the keypad dirty with my sticky fingers...). Lets see, 24 beer categories, he sent me 25 calculators...coincidence?...I think not. Just might have to steal one. J.P. da man. Thanks, Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:45:43 -0700 From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Link of the week - Feb 21, 2004 When you are on the road and want a good beer, how to you find out what is worth stopping for? Thankfully, many websites are out there that have listed the spots. And you can thank the hard-working beerdrinkers who selflessly drank glass after glass of beer so that you, the traveling public, can zip right in! http://www.beertravelers.com/ http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Food/Drink/Beer/Brewers/Microbrewers_and_Brewpubs/ http://www.realbeer.com/search/brewtour/ http://brewpubzone.com/ http://www.beerwineonline.com/Main/Breweries.htm http://www.allaboutbeer.com/beertravel/bpubs/ http://www.pubcrawler.com/ http://www.beerme.com/breweries/index.shtml http://www.ratebeer.com/default.asp http://breweriesontheweb.com/ http://www.mylifeisbeer.com/beer/bottles/list/United+States/country/ Bob Devine Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:45:06 -0600 From: ivey at uiuc.edu Subject: homebrewing in prison Greetings, Here's an interesting glimpse of the depths to which homebrewers can plummet when desperate: http://www.blacktable.com/gillin030901.htm Perhaps this recipe can form the basis for a new BJCP category!! ;) Chris Ivey Champaign, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:54:57 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: mass flow meters I've used a variety of MFMs in the past. I believe the thermal MFMs are the least expensive, as a general rule, because the primary measuring elements are simple RTDs. These work by placing two RTDs in the process gas stream. The upstream one is heated, and the delta-T is measured between the upstream and downstream RTDs. The delta-T is proportional to mass flow. I've used these to measure everything from the mass flow of an 8 inch digester gas line to a co-gen reciprocating engine in a wastewater treatment plant to a capillary sample line to ultra pure gas analyzers. They're very stable, repeatable and the standard accuracy is usually 1-1.5% of full scale or better. Better calibrations can be had, but with your basic model, we're talking in the range of zero to 20 sccm, so you should be able to measure within 0.3 sccm. I guess it depends on the size of your fermenter, but you can get these in all sizes. I agree with S, Ken's got a great idea. Sierra Instrument has a line of these, and of course Omega carries them. Standard model is a little over $200, but that's without a display. There are a couple of drawbacks to these: They take quite a while to warm up and stabilize. There is a limit to how fast they respond (though it's not all that bad), and you must filter the gas if there are particulates. One of the things I really liked about them was that I not only got the mass flow, but the temperature of the gas itself. That doesn't matter for brewing, but in a digester cogeneration application, it saves the cost of another instrument. I'd be interested if someone could find a lower accuracy version (especially with a display) in the $100 range. One can always connect a totalizer to the output, so as to find the actual area under the curve. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:46:50 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: mass flow meters Mike Sharp says ... > I've used a variety of MFMs in the past. I believe the thermal MFMs are the > least expensive, as a general rule, because the primary measuring elements > are simple RTDs. These work by placing two RTDs in the process gas stream. > The upstream one is heated, and the delta-T is measured between the upstream > and downstream RTDs. The delta-T is proportional to mass flow. Right, they are cheap, but that have some performance issues. To be MFMs are calibrated to one particular gas. The heat transfer characteristics of oxygen is diffrence from air is differenct from CO2. You have to buy a sensor for CO2. It really measures something close to mass flow; if the gas gets thinner due to temp or pressure then the heat transferred is less. Or at least that's my first take on how they work. This is actually a plus for the fermenter situation I think. Still the MFMs are temp sensitive. The big problem I found was that nearly all are made for very high gas flow rates (liters per minute) and for a 5gal fermenter you need a peak of around 0.3L/min I think and you *like* a lot of resolution at the low end (maybe a few ml per minute). I couldn't find that sort of resolutiuon when I looked last Fall. >They're very > stable, repeatable and the standard accuracy is usually 1-1.5% of full scale > or better. That's excellent info to have Mike, and I appreciaet your comments, but the 1% of FS is something of a problem if it means the data is crummy at the low end of the scale. Assume you *need* 300ml/min FS min and just to handle a 10gal ferment with a little excess or a really HOT gal ferment you'd want about a 1L/min FS. 1.5% error is 15ml/min and that's about the magnitude of the variable in early and late ferment. If the meter still has resolution at that signal range it's probably useful, but if it can't distinguish 15ml/min vs 0 and just drops to zero it's not so useful IMO. The system 1.5% FS error is probably OK but it depends on how the error is distributed on the low-end. Can you explain that ?. > I'd be interested if someone could find a lower accuracy version (especially > with a display) in the $100 range. One can always connect a totalizer to > the output, so as to find the actual area under the curve. Or just collect and integrate in a cheap computer. You probably want to collect the data for computation anyway. The performance of Coriolis MVDs sensors looks completely outstanding, but the beginning prices approach a grand and that's not in my HB budget unless I can find a way to build one to my less-than-industrial reqs for a lot less or thay show up in the surplus markett for something reasonable. thanks Mike your experience and knowledge is greatly appreciaeted. -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:18:42 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: mass flow meters A couple more comments, inline: > Right, they are cheap, but that have some performance issues. To be MFMs > are calibrated to one particular gas. The heat transfer characteristics of > oxygen is diffrence from air is differenct from CO2. You have to buy a > sensor for CO2. It's the same sensor, just a different calibration. You could account for it in your computer, if you needed it calibrated for more than one gas. But for HB needs, just get a CO2 calibration, or figure a table of offsets. When used for CO2, the max flow rate is probably about 80% of the rate for nitrogen/air. > It really measures something close to mass flow; if the gas > gets thinner due to temp or pressure then the heat transferred is less. Or > at least that's my first take on how they work. This is actually a plus > for the fermenter situation I think. That's correct. It measures true mass flow, albeit indirectly. And they function completely independant of pressure and temperature. That's way better than a volumetric meter that must also measure pressure and temperature to infer mass flow. Volumetric measurments are not prone to accurate repeatable results. > Still the MFMs are temp sensitive. No, they're not that bad. At least not within any realistic range. The Omega is rated 10-50C (50-100F). The Sierra Instruments is better; 0-50C. They all have fairly low temperature and pressure co-efficients. As long as your temps aren't swinging wildly, you can calibrate for it. > The big problem I found was that nearly all are made for very high gas flow > rates (liters per minute) and for a 5gal fermenter you need a peak of around > 0.3L/min I think and you *like* a lot of resolution at the low end (maybe a > few ml per minute). I couldn't find that sort of resolutiuon when I looked > last Fall. <snip> > 1% of FS is something of a problem if it means the data is crummy at the low > end of the scale. Assume you *need* 300ml/min FS min and just to handle a > 10gal ferment with a little excess or a really HOT gal ferment you'd want > about a 1L/min FS. 1.5% error is 15ml/min and that's about the magnitude > of the variable in early and late ferment. If the meter still has > resolution at that signal range it's probably useful, but if it can't > distinguish 15ml/min vs 0 and just drops to zero it's not so useful IMO. > The system 1.5% FS error is probably OK but it depends on how the error is > distributed on the low-end. Can you explain that ?. But if you're interested in the *integral* of flow (the total CO2 mass produced), I'd say the accuracy at the low end doesn't really matter all that much. If you're interested in the *rate* then buy a meter that's about 150% of the rate you're interested in. It's not fair to say you're interested in the rate at all points! ;^) Both coriolis and thermal mass flow meters have around a 10:1 turndown ratio. Typically the accuracy is rated from 10% to 100%, but the resolution is much better. In the case of the Omega thermal mass flowmeter, the repeatability is 0.5% FS. But while the coriolis MFMs have a better accuracy for a given rate (about 0.5% of the rate, I think), they still only go from 10%-100%. If you need better than 10:1 turndown, you need two meters in either case. Very few single primary process instruments go better than 10:1. IMHO, It's hard to argue with 1-1.5% FS, when the turndown is 10 to 1. You're still in within 10% of the actual rate at the low end. They're not mechanical, and they don't just drop to zero when the flow gets low. But the number you read on the display can be a little deceiving, if it shows 005 ml/min (out of 100 FS), then you're down in the noise. You can see there is *some* flow, but you can's say quantitatively how much. And at the end of ferment, as you said, the source of a lot of that gas is the CO2 coming out of solution, so it's not telling you much about the current state of fermentation anyway. And it makes little difference in the total gas produced. The basic Omega unit comes in a variety of sizes, but the one's we'd be interested in are all 1/8" line size, max flow up to about 1000 sccm, depending on model (the FMA31XX series go up to 10,000 sccm). But if you really wanted a larger turndown range, two meters would give you stated accuracy from say 5 sccm to 500 sccm. So, a 0-50 sccm and a 0-500 sccm would, for a little over $500, give you an absolute accuracy of 0.5-0.75 sccm up to 50 sccm, and about 5-8 sccm up to 500 sccm. But the repeatablility is much better; about 0.5% FS. If you really want, you could stretch it to a 0-100 sccm and a 0-1000 sccm for $560 (I'm sure you could find it cheaper). That means 1-1.5 sccm accuracy, and repeatability of 0.5 sccm or better up to 100 sccm, and 10-15% from 100 to 1000 sccm. The resolution would have to be less than 0.5 sccm. It's worth noting, however, that other makers offer better accuracy if you pay more. Sierra Instruments standard accuracy is 1% FS, but a high accuracy calibration is available at 0.7% of reading, plus 0.3% FS. This is obviously only useful high in the flow range. As I mentioned, though, CO2 max flow rates are about 80%. So the meter combinations would really yield flows around 0-40/0-400 and 0-80/0-800 sccm. > > The performance of Coriolis MVDs sensors looks completely outstanding, but > the beginning prices approach a grand and that's not in my HB budget unless > I can find a way to build one to my less-than-industrial reqs for a lot less > or thay show up in the surplus markett for something reasonable. You mean like: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2598064685&category=1504 Ah yes, the surplus market is definitely where I would look. I've seen the MKS brand at the Boeing surplus store here...wish I'd picked one up! There are several on eBay, but they're larger units; 100 slpm. The trick is finding a surplus smaller unit. Not as common. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:58:15 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Agar substitute Jeff May asks, >Has anyone ever used fruit jell pectin (for making jelly) >instead of gelatin or agar? Pectins will not remain a gel; it will turn to liquid. Protein gels will work but may get surface condensation this can disturb the yeast colony. It's hard to beat agar. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:51:16 -0800 From: "Kruska, Russ (ILRI)" <r.kruska at cgiar.org> Subject: Purposely underpitching yeast/repitching Since there is alot of talk about repitching yeast lately, I thought I would post about my naughty practice of purposely underpitching when I know I will not be around to package the brew for 6-8 weeks. So the resulting longer fermentation buys me time with usually no impact on quality of the brew. Now my big question is: after 7 weeks I have noticed a little more frequent bubbling in the airlock; not alot, but maybe every 45-60 seconds (after fermentation had stopped almost completely). I want to repitch this yeast (for the first time) tomorrow when I brew but I'm a little shy about repitching this yeast after such a long period. Any comments? Russ Kruska Lonely Hedge Brewing Company Nairobi, Kenya East Africa Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:52:44 -0800 From: "Guy Gregory" <guy.gregory at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Back on your horse, pilgrim! Greetings. I've been away from the homebrew world for a while for various reasons. The siren song of my brewing equipment (Hey, duuuude! Give up Miller Lite!) called me back, and after two years I thought you might enjoy some observations. Used carboys require significantly more cleanup than new ones. I had stored them at the last brew session like I always did, clean, with about an inch of water and some iodophor in them, and corked. Well, after a year or so, they still need cleaning, and the cork is purple from the iodine. Couple hours of soaking and scrubbing with my old carboy brush had 'dm sparkling again, ammonia is wonderful on glass..(don't mix with bleach, ever!) Old brewpots, especially canners, often develop rust holes. As I was warming my sparge water in the small enameled canner, I noticed water on my patio. A small pinhole had developed in the bottom of the pot (had it been in the top, how would I have noticed?) which drained nearly boiling water all over the concrete. Saved through an application of SWMBO's pots. Old immersion chillers, when tested to see if maybe they have developed holes, too, have. Fortunately, I had a fairly long piece left to use for chilling.about 14 feet outa 25. Formerly trustworthy things like that wooden stirspoon and the big plastic funnel, even though you put them away clean, now are suspicious. Now, actually, are gone. I basically had to run all my stuff through the Office of Homebrewery Security to see if it was worthy of further employment. Racking canes, funnels, spoons, were all deported. Everything else was strip-searched. And my wonderful friends at Jim's HomeBrew are still there to sell me stuff. Yay! The result? Today, a charming IPA sits clearing in the secondary, happy and humble, and a delight to behold. My last 6 of cheapo beer chills in the beerfridge, to be swept away by the forthcoming assault by the Bleach Marines. It's great to be back. Guy Gregory Lightning Creek Home Brewery Spokane, WA (1660.4, 294.3) Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:56:50 -0800 From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net> Subject: Cheap Conicals from Toledo Metal Spinning Hello everyone, I figure I can put together a conical fermenter for around $300, which is $150 to $300 cheaper than you can buy one. To get this price I need Toledo Metal Spinning's volume discount, so I have a proposition. For those of you that do not know, Toledo Metal Spinning sells a hopper that with a little work can be converted into a 12 gallon conical fermenter. Since the homebrew community found out about this they raised their prices in accordance with the demand. However, if you order 25 or more of the hoppers you get a good discount, so I would like to get together with at least 24 of my closest homebrewing friends and place an order. Unfortunately, I do not know 24 people who brew so I am appealing to this community. Here is the deal I offer: 1. Email me if you are interested. The hoppers are $100 at that volume (a bigger discount on orders of 50 or more). Add in some shipping costs. 2. Once I have at least 24 replies, I will send you a request for payment. This payment will include the cost of the hopper, shipping to my place and shipping from my place to yours. 3. Once I have a minimum of 24 orders, I will send out a due date for payments. Payments received after the due date will be returned and not be included in the order. 4. When I get the order, I'll ship out the hopper to you via USPS delivery racking. 5. I figure I can put together a working 12 gallon conical fermenter for around $300. If you would like me to build a similar one for you, let me know and I'll finalize the price, put it together, tack on the shipping costs and send it off to you. Features include: All ss fittings Inexpensive PVC stand - painted to the color you like Clear acrylic lid so you can watch the fermentation Open-style fermenter (http://brewery.org/brewery/library/OpenFerm.html) Things you need to know: 1. There are no holes in the hoppers. If at least 25 of us want Toledo Metal to make the holes we get a volume discount of $13 per hole. More details available. 2. You will need to purchase dump valve and side racking arm assemblies. Zymco sells products designed for this (NAYY). 3. The hoppers don't stand up by themselves. Zymco also sells a stand. I think I'll make mine out of painted pvc. 4. You will need some sort of lid. Toledo Metal Spinning sells one designed for their hoppers, but since there is no volume discount I'll leave that up to you. (Unless there is a shipping savings.) I plan on making mine out of acrylic. 5. If you don't buy the Zymco stand kit, you need a seal and some way to clamp the lid down. allorings.com sells an o-ring that should fit. You'll still need to get an airtight seal. I plan on taking the plunge into "open" fermenters, and just setting the lid on my fermenter. Posts about Toledo Metal Spinning on the HBD: (2 lines) http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahbd.org+inurl%3Aarchive+%22toledo+ metal+spinning%22 or http://tinyurl.com/2u67f Toledo Metal Spinning's hopper product list: http://www.toledometalspinning.com/products/hoppers/priceList.asp Open Fermenters on the HBD (2 lines) http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahbd.org+inurl%3Aarchive+ %22open+fermenter%22 or http://tinyurl.com/2vzbu - --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs - -- Take your time, take your chances - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul. -- Invictus -- -- William E Henley -- Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:57:02 -0500 From: Tim Howe <howe at execulink.com> Subject: Re: Using hose in home brewing >From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> >Subject: Using hose in home brewing > >For those considering using garden hose for any brewing, >there is recent, reliable info that many (or most) typical >garden hose brands contain lead as a "binder" in the PVC. >I'm not usually one to worry about minor dangers, but if >the lead is way above health standards from cold water >sitting in the hose, then hot wort would be a worry. > >But besides that, don't you remember those hot summer days >when you grab a quick drink from the garden hose, and... >phew, yuck! Too quick! Nasty plastic taste! Lead or not, >you don't want that taste in your beer. Use food-grade hose >for anything touching hot liquor, beer, or wort. Misinformation has a way of perpetuating itself, so before this gets out of hand, lets clarify the facts shall we? Garden hose water is definitely *not* suitable for drinking or brewing. If hose is required for either of these applications at all, use FOOD GRADE only. But, to get back to the original point, the use of a garden hose was suggested as the outer coil/boundary of a CFC. The water that runs through this coil does *not* come into contact with your wort. It merely flows over the inner coil and effects heat transfer from the inner coil, and then flows out the other end to be discarded. I won't go into the mechanics of a CFC here, but if you do a search on the net for "Counterflow Chillers" you'll get an idea of how they work. Cheers, Tim Return to table of contents
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