HOMEBREW Digest #4487 Sat 28 February 2004

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  Re: Gas Measurement ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  re: metabite in brewing ("Patrick Twohy")
  Determining EOF, hydrometers, clinitest, CO2graphs? ("Fredrik")
  re: plastics and temperature ("Jon Czerwinski")
  E-mail Harvesting & HBD (Sorta OT) (Bev Blackwood II)
  Upstate NY, too Burley! ("Chad Stevens")
  Off-Topic: SPAM Address Harvesting: On-Topic: Wits (Jason Poll)
  Plastic comments from Dan Schultz (Aaron Martin Linder)
  Insulated beverage (coffee) containers (Inland-Gaylord)" <BrianSmith1@templeinland.com>
  mash tun and PID control ("Mike Sharp")
  RE: Gas Measurement (Scott Alfter)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:23:21 +1030 From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> Subject: Re: Gas Measurement On Thursday, 26 February 2004 at 8:34:59 -0600, Ronald La Borde wrote: >> From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com> >> >> What I'm hoping to cultivate with this message are some ideas about >> how a tipping device might be fashioned or if there are other >> approaches to flow measurement that aren't going to cost an arm and >> a leg. > > One possible way to calibrate the bubble counter might be thus: > > * First I would think that the airlock solution must be at the same > volume and contain the same liquid to have any meaningful > repeatability. I've been counting bubbles for the last six months, and this is one of the things that bothered me. It took me a while to realize that the concern was unfunded. The amount of gas required to create a bubble is pretty well independent of the amount of water in an airlock. I'm talking about the traditional airlock, the kind I use: see http://www.lemis.com/grog/brewing/temperature-control.html (click on the photos for a larger version) in case of doubt. During fermentation, this kind of airlock has all the water on the exit side. A bubble forms and escapes; the size of this bubble is dependent mainly on the diameter of the tube. Then the water falls back and a new bubble starts. The size of the bubble is *almost* independent of the amount of water in the airlock. The only effect of the amount of water is to marginally change the pressure in the fermentation vessel. You can hardly expect a difference of more half an inch, which corresponds to about 1mm of mercury, much less than the typical changes in barometric pressure. I therefore suggest that it's negligible. > * So how about measuring the amount of water to completely fill a > corny keg, then empty the keg and put on airlock at gas out port. Now > start your bubble counter and slowly fill keg with water through the > liquid in port until full. This should give the exact volume of air > pushed out. This is your measurement and use this for calibration. This sounds like a good way to prove whether I'm right or wrong :-) > * Someone had posted earlier about using an audio pickup to hear the > bubbling. This may work, but another method might be to have a small > magnet in the bubbler to pulse a reed switch, or perhaps a piece of > foil that would lift with the bubble and break a light beam > counter........ Interesting ideas there. I'm still thinking. Maybe coloured water and an optical measurement at the bottom of the airlock? Greg - -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:19:07 -0800 From: "Patrick Twohy" <hbd at twohy.net> Subject: re: metabite in brewing I'm a little unclear on the metabisulfate vs. chloramine issue. People are throwing around the term campden tablets, describing them as potassium metabisulfate. It's my understanding that campden tablets are SODIUM metabisulfate and that burton salts are potassium metabisulfate. Which is the chemical that's recommended for eliminating the chloramine problem? - -- Patrick Twohy Brewing in Burlingame, CA (1784, 274 A.R.) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:06:27 +0100 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Determining EOF, hydrometers, clinitest, CO2graphs? I read Dave Burley's post on clinitest and hydrometers, and I thought I'd add another idea to help monitor proper performance. Apart from integrating the graph to the the total CO2 emerging form the fermentor (if you add the residual CO2 in solution), I think alot be said also merely by looking at the qualitative shape of the curve. I think the underlying dynamics of yeast growth and depletion of sugars gives a series of characteristic graphs for each wort composiotion, temp and strain. I would expect a fermentation that slows becuse of underpitching or because it runs out of some nutritions to show a toally different characteristics in the CO2 graph. It may probably start out fairly normal, but then have an abnormal and too quick drop. I hade several batches get stuck last summer because of poor cooling. The average temp was good, but I had too high cooling gradients over the fermentor walls. It go stuck, and in the bubble graph it was clear that it was not normal. It drops way too fast after krausen in a way that does not comply to the depletion of sugars. Sample pic here for anyone who is interested: http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/20035.jpg. Note that the temperautre of the wort wasn't too cool, but my theory was that the cold fermentor walls on one side probably knocked the yeast out. I also tried another yeast with the same result. Though it took me 3 batches to realize it was the cooling, the fact that it was abnormal was evident. Then I changed my method of temp control and the problem went away and hasn't come back. This was supposed to be another argument in favour of the CO2 flow meter discussion connecting to Ken's post. So even if there may be a certain inaccuracy in the meter I think one can still find some qualitative info from the graph. /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:33:54 -0500 From: "Jon Czerwinski" <joncz at mindspring.com> Subject: re: plastics and temperature Sean writes: >>> What about those brown rectangular thermal containers that caterers use for coffee? I haven't found them on the web yet. I wonder if anyone makes one big enough for mashing. You'd think the US army would have big thermoses. <<< A mermite mash?!? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:27:42 -0600 From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com> Subject: E-mail Harvesting & HBD (Sorta OT) I don't know about the rest of you, but I see spam as a normal consequence of using e-mail. Thus I am not so quick to judge the origin of my spam, I simply let my e-mail program do its filtering thing and bounce the few that make it past the filter. I think the HBD folks do an excellent job of trying to 1) prevent spam making it to the list and 2) not get our e-mails appropriated. We all need to remember that someone, somewhere is always working against HBD's efforts on our behalf and as a consequence be understanding on the few occasions when the bad guys succeed. -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II http://www.bdb2.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:19:56 -0800 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: Upstate NY, too Burley! I'm going to be in Plattsburgh, NY for the entire month of April. 1.5 hours from Unibrou and across the lake from Gregg Noonan's Vermont Pub and Brewery (Gregg you WILL have smoked porter on tap won't you?)! Anyway, anyone need a judge or help with bottle check-in or having a club meeting within 3 or 4 hours of there during April? Who's handling first round nationals for the Northeast? - ------------------ "This is exactly why I use Clinitest to determine that the reducing sugars are...." Dave, you just had to let the dead horse out of the bag didn't you. Everyone has been tap dancing around the periphery, sticking their finger in every now and then to see if it's still warm, but you just had to go and sound the trumpets. -S is striding purposefully from his lazyboy to his PC keypad at this very moment. Please, not another spat of clini-wars. I'd rather go back to the gyno- thread. Regards, Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:25:34 -0500 From: Jason Poll <jtpoll at mtu.edu> Subject: Off-Topic: SPAM Address Harvesting: On-Topic: Wits In HBD #4486 RickDude02 theorizes as how Patrick's email address may have been harvested by spammers. In the same digest Mark Kempisty comes close to what I think the answer is: SPAM-bots/scripts specifically designed to harvest HBD-like-formatted addresses: <name 'at' domain> Being a software developer myself I can tell you it's exceptionally easy for a morally inept person to write such a pattern-matching program. Even doing as Patrick suggests -- using a random character(s) instead of the word 'at' can still be easily circumvented. I'd say the best solution is to just get a junk yahoo/hotmail/etc email address. One that you don't mind getting flooded with spam. To keep this on-topic though, let me ask something I could probably get the answers to by searching the archives...if I only wasn't so busy at work. ;) I'm planning to brew a Wit, and wondered what peoples opinions were of preparing the coriander? I've heard crushing it lightly with a rolling pin, or giving it a whirl in the coffee grinder. I'm most concerned with how each crush-method will affect the end result. It intuitively seems that a lightly crushed coriander would require you to add more for the same flavor as a smaller amount of coffee-grinder-ed coriander. What about yeast? I have BrewTek's CL900-Belgian Wheat on hand, is there any other yeast I should consider? I recently cultured up some yeast from a bottle of Ommegang's Hennepin -- would that be terribly out-of-style? I've recently pitching different yeasts in different carboys of the same wort, so I'm open to suggestions. What about the unmalted wheat? Do I need to do a cereal mash first? What's involved? (web links?) Any thoughts? On or off-list comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks! --Jason in Boston, MI. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:46:04 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Martin Linder <lindera at umich.edu> Subject: Plastic comments from Dan Schultz - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:55:02 -0800 From: D SCHULTZ <pnwbrewer at msn.com> To: lindera at umich.edu Subject: Rubbermade Coolers Aaron, I'll give you some information on coolers that I can't back up with data. I base my information on 5 years of brewing with a Rubbermaid cooler (which I don't use anymore) and 20 years in the plastics industry working for a company that sold plastics, many of which went through testing for surgical and or food contact testing. You're safe using the Rubbermaid and Igloo coolers. HDPE is such a widely used polymer that all of it that is made for use by companies as big as Rubbermaid, is designed for medical and food contact applications. Some of it may not have the official stamp but the plastic manufacturers don't change the recipe, they just don't do the paperwork. In these days of high volume production, I'll bet they sell nothing but food and medical grade materials. It would be too expensive, especially on a polymer that sells for less than $0.40 per pound, to have two or three separate materials to fulfill both needs. You'll note that the coolers are white. Rubbermaid either uses TiO2 or ZnS2 as a pigment. Both are food safe. Temperature won't be a problem as log as you stay under boiling temps. At those temps, the walls of your cooler will warp from softening. I would have posted this to the HBD but I still can't seem to get MSN based emails through. Thus, I responded personally. You're welcome to post this if you like. Cheers, -Dan Schultz pnwbrewer msn.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:50:39 -0600 From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BrianSmith1 at templeinland.com> Subject: Insulated beverage (coffee) containers Sean and everybody else, When Sean mentioned those oversized catering coffee carafes (sp), I remembered a catalogue for restaurant stuff I had. Sure enough, there on page 48 of the Superior Products catalogue (www.supreprod.com) were those things. They come in 2.5, 5 and 10 gal sizes. Check them out. Brian Smith Big Ring Brewery and winery Bogalusa, La ********** Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:11:46 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: mash tun and PID control Sean suggests: "What about those brown rectangular thermal containers that caterers use for coffee? I haven't found them on the web yet. I wonder if anyone makes one big enough for mashing. You'd think the US army would have big thermoses." I have looked at them but unfortunately, the 10 gallon is a LOT of money (nearly $200), and the 5 gallon has too narrow of an aspect ratio IMO, especially down near the bottom. The wall is thicker at the bottom than the top. They do make a soup container that would be much more suitable, but I was unable to find a large one at any kind of reasonable price. I see them periodically on eBay, and elsewhere. Cambro makes them. You could go with stainless steel for the money these cost. Pat points out an excellent article on PID control. I have a theory that I've been meaning to try out for a long time, that would allow two standard inexpensive PIDs to operate in Cascade control. The SSRs are placed in series, so that one will be the SSR that is actually controlling, and the other won't. As the system is below setpoint, the loop directly after the heater is the contolling one, and it allows the heater to raise the temp of the mash return as high as safely possible. The other loop, at the exit of the mash tun, is still below setpoint, so it's "on" full time. As it comes up into it's proportional band, eventually it will take over control of the heater, and the hot return temp will begin to fall until the mash is at setpoint and the heater is essentially off (except for heat losses). It remains to be seen if it such a system can be tuned...but I think so. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:53:32 -0800 From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us> Subject: RE: Gas Measurement On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 at 08:34:59 -0600, "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net> wrote: > * Someone had posted earlier about using an audio pickup to hear the > bubbling. This may work, but another method might be to have a small > magnet in the bubbler to pulse a reed switch, or perhaps a piece of > foil that would lift with the bubble and break a light beam > counter........ One method I've considered (but not tried) would be to dye the liquid in the airlock, shine a light through it, and detect the changes in light received on the other side when the liquid interrupts the light. I'm thinking that you could dye the liquid red and stick a green LED and phototransistor on opposite sides of the airlock. Some simple signal-conditioning electronics between the phototransistor and a computer could count the time between bubbles. The only catch I can see is that you would most likely want to use a glass airlock (unless the plastics commonly used to make airlocks are resistant to food dye), and I don't know if anybody still sells them. (I have one that Dad picked up somewhere years ago, but it needs some cleaning before it's put back into use.) _/_ Scott Alfter ($firstname at $lastname.us) / v \ http://alfter.us/ (IIGS( Southern Nevada Ale Fermenters Union - http://snafu.alfter.us/ \_^_/ Beer and Loafing in Las Vegas - http://www.beerandloafing.org/ Return to table of contents
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