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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  therminator ("jim")
  I Love Bottling (Robert Powell)
  RE: Counterpressure bottling (Steve Jones)
  Prime Tab Sanitation ("H. Dowda")
  Re: Counterpressure filling (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Re: 'I Hate Bottling'  & J. Renner's Post (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Chest Freezer/CO2 questions (Scott Alfter)
  Kegging question / coffee resources ("Steve Smith")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:44:59 -0400
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: therminator

does anybody use one of these?
http://www.blichmannengineering.com/Therminator/therminator_photo_gallery.ht
m

looks to be the most perfect chiller on the market. I'm considering this
chiller and would like any comments..

cheers,
Jim



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:10:25 +1000
From: Robert Powell <rpowellx at tpg.com.au>
Subject: I Love Bottling

I have to agree with Pat Reddy, i think bottling is the most fun one can
have on any given sunday, i find it very relaxing and a time to reflect
and ponder on all things brewing. I look forward to having a brew ready
to bottle, or for just after grape picking season when i get to bottle
400 litres of home made wine with my father, by the time you have done
that job we are both well and truely intoxicated. Bring on the bottling
and enjoy a few at the same time, Oooooh heaven.

Robert Powell



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 8:55:08 -0400
From: Steve Jones <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Counterpressure bottling

It sure is great to see the good ol' HBD back up 
to it's previous level of participation again. Much
thanks to Pat for his dedication to this great hobby!

There has been a lot of good discussion on BC vs FC
beers, and CP bottling. Here's my nickel's worth:

Most CP fillers are a PITA to use, but it sounds
like Calvin has a good solution by providing hangers
for the filler while capping. My solution to the
problem of what to do with the CP filler while
capping was to rig it up on a stand, and spring
loading it to make it a hands-free operation. I can
place a bottle on the filler and the spring will hold
it in place while it fills, freeing up my hands to
cap the previous bottle while the current one fills.
Then I remove the filled bottle with my left hand,
while placing the next bottle on the filler with my
right hand. It makes it sort of an assembly-line type
of process, and I have bottled as many as 5 cases of
12oz bottles in under 2 hours. More details are at
hbd.org/franklin/public_html/members/sj/cpfiller.html

By quickly releasing the last bit of pressure after
the bottle is filled, I get enough foaming to cap on
foam. However, I'm thinking that it might be a good
idea to just drop a single PrimeTab(R) (NAYYJASC)
into the bottle right before capping, providing some
food for the Residual yeast to give them more energy
to scavenge the oxygen that may be in the bottle.
That should work well, and create a minimum of
sediment. Comments?

As for storing PrimeTabs(R) after opening, here is
what I do: First I'll sanitize the outside of the PT
bag by spraying it with 70% isopropyl alcohol before
opening and dry it with the inside surface of a clean
paper towel. Then I'll put the whole bag inside a new
Ziplock bag and open the PT bag. After I'm finished,
I just zip the outer bag shut until the next time I
need them. Then I wipe the zipper with alcohol before
opening again.

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Prime Tab Sanitation

I suppose it is possible for opened PT to become
contaminated over time.  However, unless the exposure
of the PT was to a heavily contaminated source, it
seems unlikely that 'all' the tabs would be
contaminated to an extent for all bottles to exhibit a
'film' due to that exposure.  A couple of bottles,
maybe.  But all sounds like another problem.

I have used PT, both recently opened as well as those
opened for some time with many batches of beer. 
Contamination has not been a problem.  I store my
opened PT in their bag with the opening rolled over
and completely sealed (with duct tape, what else).


		


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:37:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Counterpressure filling

Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jeff Renner reports:
>
>>  I have also noticed that most homebrewers do not vent the keg of
>>  outside air once they have racked the beer into the keg and
>>  pressurized it with Co2.

Actually, you've missed a level of attribution.  Those were actually 
Scotrat "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>'s words.  He 
quoted me in his first paragraph and then went on with his own.  See 
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4575.html#4575-9

I'm pleased with the discussion that my comments sparked.  In answer 
to Scott's question, is it the CP filler or the operator, I think 
that it may be both.  Obviously, since this is how commercial 
bottlers work, the system itself is sound.  But it requires thorough 
purging of the bottle followed by fobbing or some other complete 
elimination of O2 in the headspace.

Another post on the subject follows.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:04:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Re: 'I Hate Bottling'  & J. Renner's Post

In HBD 4575 (August 06, 2004) , Charles Boyer <cboyer at ausoleil.org> wrote:

>I will completely agree with you about this Jeff, that yeast scavenges all
>of the available oxygen in a closed system.

Actually, I hadn't meant to claim this when I clumsily wrote in 
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4574.html#4574-3

>It's not that the yeast actually consumes all the O2 in the
>head space (I think George Fix demonstrated this).  I think that it
>is that yeast is a powerful anti-oxidant.

What I meant was that I thought that George Fix had demonstrated was 
that the yeast did *not* actually consume all the O2 in the head 
space, but that the greater life of bottle conditioned beer was due 
to the yeast itself.  I was going by memory on this.

But then Charles continued:

>I know, I proved this to myself using a gas chromatograph in the 
>early '90's <snip>  I shot some gas out of the headspace of several 
>bottles through a GC, and lo and behold O2 was in extremely short 
>supply -- in fact, it was down in the noise of the instrument, which 
>was a professional lab quality HP device -- in other words, this was 
>no playtoy.

Which is, of course, exactly the opposite of what I recalled George 
having posted some years back.

I haven't tracked his post down yet, but I did find this interesting 
post by George on CP bottling from nine years ago 
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/1802.html#1802-15 .  I highly recommend 
reading this.  Among other things, he reported:

>I personally bought a Zahm and Nagel CP filler in the
>early eighties (when they were a good deal cheaper than they are now!), and
>I know for certain that air levels in the range .25-.5 ml/(1/3 liter) can be
>achieved with this filler if it is properly used.

<snip>

>One point that I felt should have received greater emphasis in the article is
>crucial role played by bottle storage temperature. Indeed I have found that
>thermal abuse after filling is far more destructive than actual air levels.
>To cite but just one case, a beer with .3 ml/ (1/3 liter) of air stored
>at 30C (85F) stales faster than a beer at 3.0 ml/(1/3 liter) which is stored
>at 10C (50F). For everyday homebrew, getting the air down to 2.0 appears
>to be sufficient assuming the beer is properly stored. However, I have found
>that as the bottle air levels increase the effects of high temperatures become
>more severe. This is why in commercial work .25 ml/(1/3 liter) is often cited
>as the upper limit for shipping beer.

Since my observation last week on oxidized beer was on competition 
beers that had mostly been shipped in the summer, I suspect that this 
was an important factor.

I also imagine that most CP bottlers aren't as good as the Z&N filler 
and most CP bottled homebrew has far more air than 0.25 ml, likely by 
a factor of ten based on the above example of 3.0 ml being sufficient 
for everyday homebrew (not mistreated beer).

I'll still look for the original post I was thinking of.  If anyone 
else wants to look, I'd appreciate it - I'm short of time for the 
next two weeks.  I think George used a Zahm and Nagel O2 tester.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:13:06 -0700
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Re: Chest Freezer/CO2 questions

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 at 05:19:52 -0700, Jason Pavento wrote:
> I recently received a Frigidaire chest freezer and kegging setup as a gift
> and I have a couple quick questions... I will obviously be using the
> freezer for purposes it was not meant for (running at above freezing) and
> I have heard that can shorten it's lifetime. Does anyone have any advice
> on proper care and anything special I should do to keep it running well
> for as long as possible?

The main thing to do is to make sure that when your temperature controller
switches the compressor off, it keeps it off for at least five minutes. 
This might entail letting the temperature swing a bit wider than usual. 
The 5 ft^3 Whirlpool I'm using stays at 38 +/- 1 degree in normal operation;
the compressor comes on once every 20-30 minutes for 2-3 minutes.  If I add
a keg full of room-temperature beer to it, though, it needs to be set for a
temperature swing of +/- 2 degrees until the keg cools down, or else the
compressor will cycle too rapidly.

(My "temperature controller" is an Apple II+ with some added hardware and
software I designed.  I need to fix it so that the temperature difference
adjusts by itself.  Right now, I have to stop the main program, edit it, and
restart it.)

You'll probably get condensation inside the freezer as well.  Instead of
freezing, it'll puddle up in the bottom.  You'll want to empty it out
periodically.  A wet/dry vacuum would be useful (or maybe the freezer's
floor drain, if it's in a location where you can use it), but you could
empty it out with some towels and a bucket.

> Also does anyone know where I can get my 5lb CO2 tank filled in the
> Milford MA area?

Some general advice on this subject would be to look in your local yellow
pages for a welding-supply shop.  Carbon dioxide is just one of the gases
they carry.  When I started kegging, I bought a full 10-lb. tank for under
$70.  When it runs out, I can exchange it for another for somewhere around
$15-$20.  I would think they'd also fill your tank if you didn't want to
exchange it, but the cost of a 5-lb. fill is nearly as much as for a 10-lb.
fill.

  _/_  Scott Alfter
 / v \ Visit the SNAFU website today!
(IIGS( http://snafu.alfter.us/      Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:10:34 -0600
From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com>
Subject: Kegging question / coffee resources

I recently acquired my first corny kegging system, and being rather new to
the kegging scene was hoping somebody could answer a couple questions.
Later today I'm brewing six gallons of mini-mashed Rocky Mountain Choke
Cherry Stout, adapted from a Brew Haus recipe found at
http://brew-haus.com/homebrewing_recipes.htm.  What with the fuss of
bottling, it hardly seems worth bottling only the one extra gallon that
won't fit in a corny.  So, I was thinking that after secondary fermentation
in a glass carboy, I would bottle two gallons and then keg four gallons in a
corny.  Will the extra one gallon of head space in the keg cause any
problems?  Would that extra head space use a lot more CO2?  I was planning
on force carbonating by applying pressure for a week with the keg and gas
cylinder/regulator in the spare fridge.

Also, I noticed in the green coffee thread a well-deserved plug for Sweet
Maria's http://www.sweetmarias.com/ for great green coffees, roasting tips
and other abundant information about coffee from around the world.  I'd like
to throw in my $0.02 that I have also obtained excellent prices and coffee
from the Coffee Bean Corral http://www.coffeebeancorral.com/default.asp.
Although a more limited selection, finding what meets your tastes is made
simple if one uses their Coffee Matrix on the website.  I am in no way
affiliated, just a happy camper.

Steve Smith
Missoula, MT
1508.4, 292.4 Apparent Rennarian




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