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Contents:
  Re: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc (Kent Fletcher)
  freshly harvested malt (what to do with it?) (leavitdg)
  20 minute mash ("Dave Burley")
  Vancouver (leavitdg)
  Re: Beer in Syracuse ("William Benz Jr")
  RE: pLambic (gornicwm)
  measuring and adjusting mash pH (MOWAGNER)
  Alts/short mashing (Jim Busch)
  Flaked vs Raw wheat ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re: Vancouver, BC brewpubs (mtigges)
  of  thermocouples (Kevin Wagner)
  Yeast Strain's Effect on Beer Color. ("Dan Listermann")
  Brewpubs in Van, BC ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  RE: RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc ("Mike Sharp")
  BBBW Update (Steve Jones)
  licorice (EAS)" <joseph_schuler@ml.com>
  Re: Vancouver, BC brewpubs (Tidmarsh Major)
  RE: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc..... ("Ronald La Borde")
  RE: RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc..... ("Don Price")


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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:55:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc

Mark asked about thermocouples:

> Unless you spend big bucks on a food grade stainless

> steel encapsulated thermocouple probe, 

BIg bucks?  I use a SS sheathed type J thermocouple,
available from Grainger (# 6A843) for less than $20,
it will last forever. 

> I guess I've already made up my mind regarding what 
> I'm going to do.  I'm going to use a standard 
> temperature measurement IC and simply tape it to the

> outside of the copper piping of my system,
downstream 
> of the heater.  
> Can anyone see anything really wrong with my plan?

Yes.  The IC's themselves are much slower to react to
changes in temperature than thermocouples.  If you use
an IC to control a RIMS, you run a serious risk of
scorching your wort in the lag time.  If you want to
use such a chip with a HERMS design, then you can get
away with it.




		


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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:53:10 -0400
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: freshly harvested malt (what to do with it?)

My brother just left me with about 30 lb of freshly harvested malt from his 
trip to Nova Scotia.  He didn't get anynfo on what it was...so I am left with a 
quandry.  If it is feed malt then it probably isn't fit for brewing, correct? 
ie protein levels are probably real high....?

I put a few into a boul with water to see if they'll sprout....but I have never 
made malted barley...

Then too, don't some styles call for unmalted wheat (lambic?)....so I could 
experiment in that fashion...with unmalted barley...?

Anyway, if there are any ideas as to what I can do with this stuff I am all 
ears!

Happy Brewwing!

 ..Darrell




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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:10:46 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: 20 minute mash

Brewsters:

20 minute mashes have been around since Charlie Papazian incorrectly did the
iodine test
a few decades ago and concluded it was OK to do a quick mash. When his yield
was crappy he said Oh, it's OK just add more malt. Must be the highly modified
malt ( maybe that was George Fix BHS) . Charlie even perpetuates the myth by
specualting that there is some magical reaction of iodine with the husk.  Yeah
it's magical all
right, it is the starch clinging to the husk of an incompletely saccharified
mash.

Remember, the majority of the protein modification occurs at low temperature
and by far the majority of the protein modification occurs at the maltsters
and the saccharification at the brewers.

In any event,  the proper way to do a starch test with iodine is to include
the bits of starch from the malt not filter them out with a coffee filter as a
recent contributor suggested .  You do not get a blue mash ( positive iodine)
with the <solution>   until there is starch actually dissolved in the wort and
that doesn't happen until you get up to the gelatinization temperature of the
starch being used. Most often the Germans would get a blue mash as they
finished off the brew at 167F and above.

SO if efficiency and an improved mouthfeel and ,
more  importantly,  flavor is desired, I suggest step mashing and a longer
mash time than 20 minutes. What is the rush when you look at the time for all
the other steps? This is a hobby!

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

Highly modified malt refers to the PROTEIN modfication and has little do with
the starch.




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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:09:58 -0400
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Vancouver

Marc;

 My wife and I just spent the week in Northern BC, but then stayed in Vancouver 
the last night.  We stayed on Granville Island, a sort of artsy and shopping 
area...2 breweries/pubs there.  In the Granville Hotel ( the only one on the 
island) there is Dockside Pub.  The brewer is German,...and the brews to me 
were ok...except he had what he called a stout,..but I think it was with a 
lager yeast,...not bad tasting,..just to me mis-labelled...

 The other place is a larger brewery, with pub...called the Granville Island 
Brewery, and to me they were brewing for the masses...ie everything was a bit 
watery...nothing too impressive.

 Please let me know what you think if you go to either...

 ..Darrell



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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:45:10 -0400
From: "William Benz Jr" <wbenzjr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Beer in Syracuse

Alan asked about picking up micros in Syracuse.

Galeville Grocery
412 Old Liverpool Rd
Liverpool, NY

The Party Source
2646 Erie Blvd. East
Syracuse, NY

Middle Ages Brewery
120 Wilkinson St
Syracuse, NY

Cheers

Bill 



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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:51:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: gornicwm at earthlink.net
Subject: RE: pLambic

The "Flaked Wheat" was chosen over the "Raw" because my shop 
does not carry the raw wheat.  Where could I obtain raw 
wheat in the future?  Is this wheat sold as animal
feed?  Would most health food stores carry this product?

Organic would be the way to go, I suspect.

Sadly...or Happily...I did not check conversion.  I left 
the iodine on vacation for the night.  

My typical mashes have full conversion within 1.5-2 hours, 
so the 1 hour mash/boil schedule provided on the Biohazard 
site made sense and I am fairly comfortable that starches 
were left behind.  Again, its only a guess...

>From what I've read and know, the boiling of the mash was to 
burst starch bundles, extract tannins, and deactivate enzyme 
activity.  Thus, keeping remaining starches in the kettle without
having them converted.

I'm pretty excited about the pLambic!!!  However, I understand 
patience in the name of the game too.

Bill Gornicki
CRAFT Homebrew Club
Michigan


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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:28:17 -0300
From: MOWAGNER <mowagner at speedy.com.ar>
Subject: measuring and adjusting mash pH

From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Efficiency--measuring and adjusting mash pH really helps
 ......
I dough in with room temp water, take a pH reading, adjust the pH to 5.3 -
5.5, .........
Todd in Idaho

I agree with you, correcting the mashing Ph (together with a proper
grinding) boost a high Effciency.
The only question is you take the sample from your mash with water at room
temperature.

What I do is:
Take the water alone at room temperature and correct the Ph to 6 - 6.2
Mix with grain at proper temperature (pointing to 65 celcius) and take a
sample after 5 minutes from mashing at 65 celcius and after cooling to room
temperature measure Ph again (but now from mashing) to see if I'm in range
with Ph (5, 3 - 5,5).
With my water profile I found this works perfect, correcting the Ph from
water itself and later on just checking in the mash (the important think).
I think it works better this way. Why?
If the mashing is high in Ph and you need to correct, you must mix the acid
in the mashing, loosing temperature.
In the way I do it, pre-correcting water Ph to around 6.2, (after trial and
error) I always stay in the proper range without any correction during
mashing.
Remember you need to find the proper Ph for your local water and with dark
malts perhaps you don't need to correct nothing.
I apologize if my english has mistakes, spanish is my mother language.

Best Regards,

Mauricio Wagner
Buenos Aires - Argentina
http://www.cerveceroscaseros.com.ar
El sitio de los Cerveceros Caseros en Castellano



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Date: Thu, Aug 26 2004 9:47:32 GMT-0400
From: Jim Busch <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Alts/short mashing

Alts are hoppy but snappy and crisp on the finish. 
They should not be full, rich and highly 
malty/meloiden laden like Dunkles. A mash bill 
that employs mostly Munich malts results in a 
Vienna/Dunkles type beer. While this can be a 
nice beverage hopped up to 50 BUs, its not the 
same as a refreshing poundable session beer like 
one finds at Im Fuschen or Zum Uerige. You need 
just the right balance of malt sweetness (from 
Cara malz) on top of the main pils malt 
bill to make the finish right. As for sulpher 
notes, these should be subtle to non existent IMO. 
Lagering should help to reduce the sulpher notes. 
Alts are also very well attenuated beers, and 
this is another reason why all Munich malz recipes 
miss the mark. Also be sure you dont brew too big 
a beer, the OG should be 11.5ish the FG about 
1.5-2P and the ABV under 5%. Thats why you can 
drink about 20 .25L glases in a good session 
after laying in a good base of Schweinhaxn!

As for rapid mashing, there is nothing new here. 
It is common in a large well engineered sudhaus 
to achieve between 8 and 12 brews/day of normal 
12P Helles bier. You dont mash long to push out 
that many brews per day, but you do need optimum 
chemistry to get the fast conversion. It also 
helps to do wet milling when you wants such short 
residence times.

Prost!

Jim Busch




 



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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:12:44 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Flaked vs Raw wheat

Flaked wheat IS "raw", that is, unmalted.  It's just been steamed and 
squished, so it's easier to deal with in the mash (don't need to mill 
it, for one.) 

If you want "raw" wheat berries, look at a "natural foods" store in the 
bulk section.  They should have some.  Or, you can use whole wheat 
flour, at the risk of a stuck mash.  I've done that.  It works fine if 
your mash tun can handle it (my slotted manifold cooler didn't have a 
problem).

=Spencer



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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:05:51 -0700
From: mtigges at shaw.ca
Subject: Re: Vancouver, BC brewpubs

Marc Sedam at UNC was wondering about brewpubs in Vancouver, Canada.

Marc, we have several.  First worth mentioning, is that there is a
(what the other brewers call a kabel) group of brewpubs owned by a
company called Mark James Group.  In Vancouver there are two of them,
the Yaletown Brewing Company and DIX BBQ Brewhouse.  The former is
much better than the latter.  And if you like BBQ don't opt for the
latter because it says it has it.  The beer at DIX isn't bad, Tony the
brewer is very quality conscious, they're just not as interesting.
Personally I think it has something to do with the proximity to our
sports stadium. As a matter of fact you just missed cask night at DIX
(usually every fifth Sat or so).  YBC is excellent though.  The brewer
there is the head brewer for the whole MJG group of brewpubs. The
bitter there (it's now called an IPA, but it's a bitter) is truly
excellent.  YBC has 6 regular beers, bitter, wheat, brown, pale and
two lagers, one good, one boring.  All of these are excellent beers,
but beware the lemon if you order the hefeweizen (btw, it's brewed
with a german strain).  YBC is located in the trendy Yaletown district
right across the street from my office, let me know if you want to tip
a couple.

Better than YBC though is Steamworks.  It's in the bigtime tourist
area called Gastown.  The brewer there, Conrad, is an ex-homebrewer, a
helluva nice guy, and an award winning brewer.  They recently put
together an adjoining coffee bar, so he spent a week making a couple
thousand shots of esspresso for a stout.  He won 2nd at GABF (I think)
for specialty beer.  It's a velvety smooth, beautifull full-bodied
7.5% stout, one of the best beers I've ever had.  The coffee is there,
but not overwhelming, truly a great beer.  Unforuntunately, it's kind
of hard to get, and might be all gone.  If Conrad is there brewing
(the brewery is very exposed in the downstairs eating area) ask him
about it.  All of there beers are excellent, especially the IPA, a bit
more subdued than other examples, but very enjoyable.  They alternate
between the porter and stout, but if the porter is on, don't miss it.

There is also a brewery/restaurant on Granville Island, I've been
remiss in not visiting.  I've heard it's excellent.  The brewer there
is a German, and the beers tend to german styles.  I think it's called
the Dockside Brewery.

If you're going to be in Whistler, then there is an MJG there.  The
last time I was up there, they had a great Framboise.  But that was a
couple of years ago. There is also another in Surrey.  Currently the
North Vancouver MJG (which was called Avalon, and was quite good) is
revamping itself as North Shore Brewing Company, I'm unsure if this
still an MJG venture or not.

Victoria, if you're going to head over there, is chock full of good
brewpubs. 

If you're interested in going to a good non-brewpub bar then check out
the Raven in North Vancouver, around the corner from my place, they
have far and away the best selection of local beers.

Don't hesitate to send me a mail if you need a tasting partner!

Mark.


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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:10:38 -0700
From: Kevin Wagner <kevin.wagner at watchmark.com>
Subject: of  thermocouples

"Mark Nesdoly" writes:
  > Unless you spend big bucks on a food grade stainless
  > steel encapsulated thermocouple probe,

I use a 304 stainless steel encapsulated type-J thermocouple probe[1],
$17.64 at Grainger.

  > with built in cold-junction compensation, etc (expensive).
  > Of course, this point is only valid if your controller is
  > not an off-the-shelf Omega type unit that you can plug a
  > thermcouple directly into.

I bought my Watlow controller for $45 on e-bay. I guess it all depends
on your definition of expensive, and how much fun you want to have
building the hardware.

  > If you have a RIMS system, have you noticed any
  > corrosion of your thermocouple?

I don't have a RIMS, but I do use this probe in my kettle, where I
imagine the temperatures are higher. It's a converted sankey with two
3kw elements. Maybe 25 batches on it. The probe needs to be cleaned of
chalky white deposit (beer stone?) every 5 or 6 batches. No noticeable
corrosion, though.

 -K

[1]http://tinyurl.com/52wvz





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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:46:27 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Yeast Strain's Effect on Beer Color.

From: tmeier at real-ale.net
Subject: beer color related to yeast strain


10 gallons of wit, split in two fermentors. One pitched
with WL Witbier yeast, other pitched with WL Wit II.

The Wit II is much lighter in color.  Both were shaken to aerate,
and both have flocculated out.

Any explanation for this?  Should I adjust the final SRM based on
yeast strain? ;) Not the first time I seen it, but never this
extreme.

A dramatic display of this effect was seen at the National Conference in
Chicago last year.  Dragon Mead brewing split a 3 barrel batch amount 17
yeast strains IIRC.  All lined up across a bar, the color variation was
remarkable to observe.


Any theories as to why this happens?

I don't know.  Maybe the sugars that some yeasts are capable of fermenting
and others are not contain pigment.

Dan Listermann





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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:34:04 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Brewpubs in Van, BC

Marc Sedam, keeper of all things Sedamichlaus, is looking for good beer in 
Vancouver, BC.

Good Day, eh... and welcome to the Great White North, Marc.  Despite our 
reputation for good beer, for best results please don't get your hopes up 
*too* high.

>From personal experience (YMMV) I've found that most brewpubs in Vancouver 
and surrounding areas are part of the Mark James Group, and serve somewhat 
boring and bland beers with no major flaws (save for lack of bitterness and 
flavour).  Of these (in greater Van there are Dix -near BC Place, Avalon - 
North Van, Yaletown - not far from Dix, and Big Ridge - in Surrey) I've 
found Yaletown to be the blandest selection and Big Ridge to have the most 
interesting beers (try the red and the porter).

That said, if you intend to make the trip to Surrey to Big Ridge, a must try 
are Gary Lohin's new digs at Central City Brewing, right off the Central 
City SkyTrain station and a short ride (+\- 1/2 hr) from Vancouver.  An 
ex-RCMP homebrewer and more recently of Sailor Hagar's fame, Gary brews a 
respectable wheat (coriander and curacao, but neutral yeast), an excellent 
red ale and both a pale ale (good finish hopping) and a black and oily stout 
worth making the trip for on a good day.  Various club members have compared 
differing notes, so the consistency of the brews might not be quite there 
yet.

In Vancouver proper, Steamworks (close to Canada Place and just off the 
Waterfront Skytrain station) is a bit trendier and although a discerning 
palate can pick out some flaws in the beers, they tend to use appropriate 
yeasts and to be on balance a bit more interesting than those of the MJG.


Steve Dale-Johnson
Royal Canadian Malted Patrol - We always get our brew!
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:10:54 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc

Mark Nesdoly talks of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc.....

"Can anyone see anything really wrong with my plan?"

I think I'd prefer to use PID control for this, rather than some sort of
bang-bang control.  You're not really going to build a PID controller are
you?  The type of control for a beer cooler is a lot different than the type
of control used for a RIMS (IMO).  

As for the T/C, heck I'd never immerse it directly, though there's no reason
(aside from accuracy) it couldn't be used externally like your digital IC.
I use an instrumented heater rod, with the T/C embedded in the end of the
rod.  If I didn't already have the instrumented heater, I'd use a
thermowell.  

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:26:11 -0400
From: Steve Jones <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: BBBW Update

Hi all,
You may remember a post I made a few months back about
our club project on a Solera Bourbon Barrel Barleywine
(see http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4565.html#4565-2). We
drew off 5 gallons last week for our annual campout this
past weekend (great outing!) and it was quite tasty for 
as young as it is. Of the 11 5 gallons batches (some 
closer to 4 gal) only 1 was older than 4 months (it was 
10 months), and the estimated average OG was about 1.110. 
Though it had only been in the barrel for about 4 weeks, 
it had a distinctive oakey character to it, with a slight 
bourbon character. 2 more batches were brewed the last 2 
weekends to top it off in a few weeks.

So now I've got a question: the barrel is bunged solid 
and seems to have a slight positive pressure on it - 
maybe a few psi. The last few days I've noticed several 
spots on the barrel (all located at joints) that seem to 
be tiny piles of sawdust. When I brush them away I don't 
see any evidence of a hole, so if it is some kind of 
insect it must be microscopic. Is it possible that it is 
a result of the positive pressure inside the barrel? Or
do I have some kind of bugs in there?

If it is bugs, how do I get rid of them? No insecticides,
as they could permeate thru the wood into the beer. It
might be a reason to coat the barrel with something to
lock out the air, suffocating the bugs and having the 
added benefit of minimizing oxydation potential.

Any comments?

- ---------------------------------------

An update on my walk-in cooler: After adding several kegs
of beer, and 300+ pounds of grain, I had to modify the
AC unit to prevent it from freezing up. I bypassed the
internal controls (switches & thermostat) and direct wired
the power line in to the compressor. I added a new power
cord to go directly to the fan, which runs constantly.

I also placed the thermostat probe into a container of 
water (large glass test tube - maybe 50ML or so) to reduce
the on/off cycle frequency. Now the compressor on cycle is
about 5 minutes, and the off cycle is 2 or 3 times that.

It has been running at about 44F for a month now, and
I'm very pleased with it. Next is to add several taps on
the front.

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR




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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:26:51 -0400
From: "Schuler, Joseph (EAS)" <joseph_schuler at ml.com>
Subject: licorice

>>I'm wanting to put a slight licorice character into a fairly big wort
i.e. 1.090.<< 

Hello, 
I was just wondering how you were intending to add the licorice flavor.
If you aren't already, I was going to suggest using the real
thing-licorice root.
Joseph Schuler
Princeton, NJ 
 



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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:59:29 -0400
From: Tidmarsh Major <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Vancouver, BC brewpubs

When I was there a few years ago, my favorite was Sailor Hagar's.
http://www.bestbeerbc.com/indexFrame.htm

Take the ferry across the harbor to North Van and the brewpub 
is a few blocks to the left and up the hill. The brewery is 
a small cinderblock building behind the brewpub. I wandered 
by during the day, and they happened to be at work brewing. 
The 2 brewers were very friendly and happily let me wander 
around looking at their operation.

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I'll be in Vancouver this coming week and would like a 
> recommendation on brewpubs in the area.  I know there 
> are about 5 pubs, with a few more breweries.  Anyone 
> have a preference?
> 
> Thanks.
> Marc
> 
> 




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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:47:28 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc.....

From: "Mark Nesdoly" <mnesdoly at ouc.bc.ca>

>Most every system I've seen/read about/researched measures
temperature
>via a single thermocouple.

Most, but not all. I use a standard bimetal dial type.

>The thermocouple is usually inserted into the wort
>downstream of the heater, through some type of watertight port in the
plumbing.
>Since this seems to be the only way people have done a RIMS system, I
kind
>of ended up following the herd, but now I have serious doubts.

And you should. Why measure the heated wort, when what you really want
is the mash temperature, which may be quite different.

>Unless you spend big bucks on a food grade stainless steel
encapsulated
>thermocouple probe, the thermocouple itself will corrode and
eventually fail.

The probe needs a diaper, it's called a probe shield, or thermowell.

>The thought of a mixture of alumel-constantan particles swimming
>around in my beer doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling either.

Warm no, but I must admit fuzzy comes to mind.

>I guess I've already made up my mind regarding what I'm going to do.
I'm
>going to use a standard temperature measurement IC and simply tape it
to the
>outside of the copper piping of my system, downstream of the heater.
I'll then
>wrap the works in insulation.  These types of ICs are really quite
cheap, very
>accurate, and the nice part - digital output to the controller - no
small analog
>signals requiring expensive amplifiers.

Since your mind is already made up, it's fortunate that you are on the
right track.

>Can anyone see anything really wrong with my plan?

Nope

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde




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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:27:47 -0400
From: "Don Price" <dprice1 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: RE: RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc.....

Mark say "Unless you spend big bucks on a food grade stainless steel
encapsulated
thermocouple probe, the thermocouple itself will corrode and eventually
fail."

I use Grainger part # 6A843.  It is stainless steel and $17.64 isn't exactly
big bucks.  Corrosion does not seem to be a problem after 3 years...

Don




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