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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Optimum mashing conditions? ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
Re: Candi Sugar ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
Re:Autoclaving equipment (Nigel Percy)
Growing Brett (wesolomon)
Re: High Altitude Hop Cultivation (John Landreman)
RE: Alternative cooling ("Mike Sharp")
Cutting the tops of kegs, redux ("Doug Moyer")
Belgium (Jim Liddil)
candi sugar--why did belgians use it--a speculation (Raj B Apte)
Re: cooling a fermenter in an apartment. (Joe Gibbens)
Yeast for Warm Brewing: Belgian Ardennes (WY3522) (Alexandre Enkerli)
Warm fermenting, part 2! (pacman)
Warm weather yeasts (Randy Ricchi)
Personal Testimony ("A.J deLange")
hot weather ferments ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
Posting 101 and Professor Janitor's Email Address ("Pat Babcock")
Re: Postint 101 and Professor Janitor's Email Address ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:24:36 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Optimum mashing conditions?
[Fourth attempt to send this message.
First time round, my message was rejected because it contained ISO
8859 characters. I replaced the degree symbol with the HTML
equivalent ° and the German ss symbol with the HTML equivalent,
ß.
Second time it was rejected because I signed the message.
Third time round it still managed to find some non-ASCII characters.
Pat, could you at least get it *what* it doesn't like? It seems that
it was the German letter ä, which I'll represent like that.
Let's hope this version will find favour with the mailing list
software.
End of attempted posting saga
]
I recently answered a message on the German Hausbrauerforum (Home
brewer forum). The person in question was concerned that his mash pH
was too acid: pH 5.3. I answered that the pH was fine, and discovered
that this is conventional wisdom in English-speaking countries, but
not in Germany. Specifically, Hubert Hanghofer (author of a very
interesting German home brewing book, and copied on this message)
stated (before my translation):
The optimum pH values that I quote are based on literature from
Weihenstephan. In the book "Basics of beer brewery", by L. Narziß,
sixth edition, 1995", page 115, it states:
The optimum functional conditions for beta-Amylase are:
- in pure starch solutions
pH 4.6
Temp. 40-50°C
- in mashes (not boiled)
pH 5.4-5.6
Temp. 60-65°C
Above 70°C beta-Amylase quickly becomes inactive.
Alpha Amylase:
- in pure starch solutions
pH 5.6
Temp. 60-65°C
- in a mash
pH 5.6-5.8
Temp. 72-75°C
Above 80°C alpha-Amylase quickly becomes inactive.
(end of book quotation; return to quoting Hubert)
These data are also in "Technology of wort preparation", 1992 (page
115). Neither book explains why they make a comparison with
previously boiled starch solutions, nor why the difference is so
big. I assume that starch solutions are the standard substrate for
measurement of enzyme activity. Neither source specifies a
temperature for the temperature measurement, so I assume 20°C. The
analyses are very carefully regulated by the MEDAK
(Mitteleuropäische Brautechnische Analysenkommission, Central
European Brewing Analysis Commission). Unfortunately I don't have
these norms. Does anybody have access too the MEDAK regulations for
pH measurements? [This last addressed to the HBF list, which so far
has not resulted in a published answer].
(end of Hubert's message)
That's interesting stuff, but the most interesting thing is that it
disagrees with what I've read in English literature, notably John
Palmer's "How to Brew", which states
(http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-1.html):
Beta Amylase 131-150°F 5.0-5.5
Alpha Amylase 154-162°F 5.3-5.7
These temperatures correspond to 45° to 66° for beta-Amylase and 68°
to 72° for alpha-Amylase.
So who's right? Is John inaccurate in stating (as shown on that web
page and in the printed book) that the pH/temperature optima are a
rectangle? Are there different kinds of the enzymes? Are other
factors involved? Given the quoted differences between starch
solutions and mashes, it is conceivable that there's something about
the composition of the mash that makes a difference. Are we each
making different assumptions about the composition of the mash?
Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:58:51 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Candi Sugar
On Monday, 13 September 2004 at 7:57:59 -0400, Mike Dixon wrote:
>> From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com>
>> But most references I see says
>> most candi sugar is mostly sucrose - cane sugar, but has a little inverted
>> sugar. And further proof is inverted sugar does not crystalise anywhere as
>> easily as sucrose for the average punter.
>
> While I agree candy sugar is sucrose, it ain't cane...it's almost
> certainly beet*. I have meant to send you a note about that for a
> long time.
This is probably true.
> *Look at the top countries that produce cane and think about
> climate... <broken URL omitted> also check out the top commodities
> for Belgium, beets are high on the list...
Certainly in the rest of Europe, nearly all sugar is beet sugar. I
think any cane sugar would have to be imported. But I have this funny
recollection in the back of my mind that the Belgians also make sugar
from endives; it's funny (and therefore memorable) because it seems to
be a ridiculous thing to make sugar from.
Note, however, that cane sugar and beet sugar (saccharose) are
chemically identical. The only difference would be in the impurities,
which might impart a slightly different taste.
Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:43:00 +0930
From: Nigel Percy <nigel.percy at flinders.edu.au>
Subject: Re:Autoclaving equipment
In reply to autoclaving your equipemnt you might need to check what the
epuipment is made out of. If there are any soft plastics (even some hard
plastics melt or buckle at 121 degrees Centigrade), and they melt they will
block the exit valve of the autoclave (a very expensive mistake). This might
happen with your hoses. The rubber rings should survive but I wouldn't do
repeated runs of this in the autoclave as it does cause them to degrade (I
speak from experience).
Another way to kill off bacterial infections is a long soak (a few hours) in a
dilute chlorine solution (ala unscented bleach), this can then be washed off
using hot water (do a lot of washes) to remove the chlorine smell/taste. This
is as effective as autoclaving something, it just takes a bit more work. You
can use something like White King (if you have it where you are, sorry I'm in
Australia).
Hope this helps.
Nigel
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:47:29 -0400
From: <wesolomon at comcast.net>
Subject: Growing Brett
I have heard that Arthur Tome of the Pizza Port has produced a beer
fermented with all brett.
Anyone have sucess growing Brett into a culture that would be able to do
this?
I have had very poor luck keeping it alive as it grows. Does ok in the
lambic/orval clone
when it is mixed.
Yes, I have read the lambic faqs.
Thanks,
Bill in Southern CT
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: John Landreman <jlandrem at cso.atmel.com>
Subject: Re: High Altitude Hop Cultivation
Mike,
I live down the pass from you in Colorado Springs (6000 ft). I've had success
growing Cascade and Willamette. I tried growing Mt. Hood but gave up after
three or four years with no cones.
John Landreman
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:30:13 -0600
> From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
> Subject: Re: High Altitude Hop Cultivation
>
> We recently moved to Green Mtn. Falls, Colorado which is at 7,800 ft, with
> a relatively short growing season. Want to try some hops next spring and was
> wondering what varieties might work best. I'll try the Cascades, but would
> really like some other varieties as well. Anyone have other suggestions for
> this?
>
> Mike
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:21:29 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Alternative cooling
Noah is looking for an alternative means of chilling a fermenting beer...
2) Is there a cooling device of some
sort that doesn't involve changing
ice, or wetting towels? Something
that uses peltier effect, a small
glycol jacket for a carboy, etc...
If you're lucky enough to own a refrigerator that dispenses chilled water,
you could use the internal plumbing to recirculate cold water through a coil
that's placed in the fermenter. I wouldn't use a jacket--make a coil that
goes in the mouth of the carboy. You'll need a small pump (it will have to
be *very* small or it will cavitate); a peristaltic pump would be ideal, but
a flexible impeller pump would probably work as well, as long as it had a
speed control.
The pump should be turned on and off via a thermostat, so that if it
actually gets the fermenter down to below optimum, it will shut off.
Insulate the heck out of the fermenter...your reefer isn't going to absorb a
huge amount of heat this way.
The chilled water return goes in the back connector, and either intercept
the cold water outlet before the solenoid valve in the dispenser, or bypass
the valve. I don't know if the solenoid on the dispenser is rated at 100%
duty cycle.
If you don't have cold water in your reefer, then you still might be able to
construct such a thing by getting to the inside via the defrost drain, or
penetrating the wall. Be careful of refrigerant lines if you do any
drilling. If you don't own the reefer, then you might be able to clip a
corner of the door seal. This could be replaced when you move out. Be sure
to seal any openings you have to the outside...otherwise you'll have
frosting problems.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:35:38 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cutting the tops of kegs, redux
Alrighty. I finally went out and bought an angle grinder, based on the
advice of many of the fine folks here. Next, I'd like to better understand
(more pictures!) how people have built jigs for cutting a perfect circle.
I have the following angle grinder:
http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=74270-000000070-DW402K
Since the cutting blade is in the same plane as the main handle (vs. the
air-powered grinder that one poster showed), the grinder needs to be held
vertically. I can see using the hole where the side handle screws in to
attach to a jig. But, that is only one point, so it could pivot at that
point.
Also, what happens when you are almost done cutting? If the jig is attached
to the center tap post, it will start falling into the keg when the circle
is almost complete.
Again, pictures would be most helpful!!
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Troutville, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:27:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Belgium
Long time reader mainly lurking for a while. I finally have a
chance
to go to Belgium. i'll be staying in Brussels. I will only be there three
days. So can folks suggest a must see bar, beer stores and choolate shop?
Any beer that you would only have in Belgium? A must have? any other cool
suggestions welcome.
Jim Liddil
North Haven, CT
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raj B Apte <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: candi sugar--why did belgians use it--a speculation
Given that candi sugar is not inverted, why use it over any
other beet sugar (ie, table sugar)? I surmise that table
sugar is a perfect substitute. When sugar beet production
really ramped up (middle of the nineteenth century?) most
of it tasted pretty nasty until purification technology
improved. Getting crystallized sugar--rock candy--was a
good way to be sure of purity. So brewers bought candi
sugar because they knew it wouldn't taste like sugar beets.
There is no reason to use it today--just caramelize any
cane/beet sucrose and get on with it.
Note: I have no facts to support any of this story, but I
like it.
raj
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:01:20 -0500
From: Joe Gibbens <jgibbens at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: cooling a fermenter in an apartment.
Noah,
I've never tried this, but when you mentioned peltier, It gave me an idea.
You could try puting the carboy into a Peltier based cooler with the
lid off, and insulate with several towels. For temp control you could
either try varying the amount of insulation, or using an inline
thermostat.
For water based cooling, do you have cold tap water in your apartment?
If so, you could try a tap water based cooler. Again, I have not
used this method. To control the temp, you could use an inline
thermostat and solenoid actuated lawn-sprinkler valve, put the carboy
into a larger container like a cooler, and put the cooler into a tub
or cut an overflow drain into the cooler.
*Disclaimer* The next method is dangerous, don't try it.
If you're adventurous, and don't mind the risk of drilling into your
fridge/freezer, you could build a semi-closed system glycol cooler.
There's a chance of both freon lines and electrical wire (unplug
first) to hit. If the side of the fridge is warm, the freon lines are
definitely inside, but if not there's still a chance you'll hit one.
If you still want to try, please don't blame me if the fridge is
ruined, or worse. I have not personally cut through a working fridge.
If you search the archives, there should be some info from those who
actually have. You would place a copper coil inside the
fridge/freezer, and then recirculate with a pump between the cooler
with the carboy, and the cu coils. Control the temp with an inline
thermostat.
To start, I would try the Peltier cooler with towels. If it doesn't
cool a carboy full of water, you can always take the cooler back.
Hope this helps.
Joe Gibbens
Hopedale IL.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:17:29 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Yeast for Warm Brewing: Belgian Ardennes (WY3522)
Noah Bolmer in Fairfax, VA asks about yeasts that ferment well at high
temperatures.
For Wyeast at least, the strain with the highest optimal temperature
seems to be the Ardennes one (Chouffe yeast, 3522). This yeast is known
to produce a complex spicy character. Used it this summer for two
batches, wishing to get as much of the spiciness as possible. In fact
used a variety of herbs and spices in one batch. Fermented as warm as
possible (on top of the fridge). The results are very nice but the
spiciness isn't that prominent. They're complex and "Belgian-like," but
with perhaps more esters than phenols. They're not really fruity per
se, but have that kind of warm ale character.
The reason the spiciness didn't show through is probably because both
batches were left in secondary for quite some time. And maybe it will
show up again in aged bottles, but it'd be surprising as spices usually
mellow out.
Will surely use this strain again. For one thing, it could be described
as a Belgian equivalent of "Might S04" in its vigorous fermentation and
thick krausen.
FWIW, a Belgian brewer in Quebec once admitted that all their beers
were fermented at 30C (86F) and up. And it didn't sound like a joke!
AleX in South Bend, IN
[129.7mi, 251.5] Apparent Rennerian
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:54:56 -0400
From: <pacman at cox.net>
Subject: Warm fermenting, part 2!
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
This morning I received a whole lot of email saying
that I should try Belgian styles, which are fermented
at much warmer temperatures than many other ales.
I enjoy a good Belgian, so I decided to do some
Googling. Unfortunately I am getting mixed messages.
See: http://brewery.org/library/mashtun/belg.html
brewery.org says repeatedly that these styles are
fermented at below 65 degrees. The few belgian styles
that don't say below 65 degrees don't say anything at
all. So I ask you this: which Belgian styles of beer
should be fermented (and I mean the entire fermentation,
I cannot do any of it below 77 degrees, and really,
I'm looking at close to 80.
Thanks!
Noah A. Bolmer
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:03:20 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Warm weather yeasts
Search Wyeast and WhiteLabs for witbier yeast, and also Australian ale
yeast for warm ferments. Both types work well in the upper 70's and
produce a nice fruitiness without being excessive.
>Noah Bolmer asked:
1) What yeasts have have other
warm-weather brewers found to work
well for various styles of beer, givin
a ferment temp of 75-78F
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:29:46 +0100
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Personal Testimony
I was in Belgium last week (for the XI De Clerck Chair conference -
quite an experience) and can personally testify that I did notice at
least one pile of sugar beets ready to be picked up from the field.
A.J.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:45:18 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: hot weather ferments
Noah in Fairfax, VA asked about a warmer than recommended fermentation and
good yeasts for this. I have had good results at similar temperatures using
Wyeast 1056 ("Chico", the yeast used by Sierra Nevada). This is a very
neutral ale yeast and at higher temperatures the esters, while certainly
noticeable, are more in line with traditional english ale yeasts.
Another neutral yeast that may be similar (I've never fermented it this warm
but have had good reuslts cooler) is Danstar Nottingham dry yeast. Maybe
the esteemed Gump can comment on how suitable this would be.
Fellow RCMP member Tom Poelman is in the habit of fermenting with Wyeast
2278 Czech Pils yeast (yes, LAGER yeast) at warm room temperatures.
Sacrilege? Perhaps. It certainly may not be authentic, but seems to make a
decent beer.
I'd stay away from Wyeast 1084 (Irish) or any of the yeasts with more
"character" as the stresses of your brewing environment will magnify these
traits into off flavours.
Or, for the super deluxe approach, see B3's fermenters below. Personally,
I'd try some neutral ale yeasts first, though.
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=FE750B
Steve Dale-Johnson
Royal Canadian Malted Patrol - We always get our beer!
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:17:16 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Posting 101 and Professor Janitor's Email Address
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your plain text advocate...
"Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> intones:
> Third time round it still managed to find some non-ASCII characters.
> Pat, could you at least get it *what* it doesn't like?
But I have, Greg. No mystery. I've published the requirements publically in
the HBD FAQ on the HBD.ORG website. I can't be held accountable for the trials
and tribulations of those who never noticed ;^)
For the benefit of all readers who haven't read the FAQ (which, I believe, any
rejection - automated or otherwise - contains the address of. For that matter,
it is also given mention in the TOC of the Digest itself..), the following are
the formats considerations which the HBD requires at present:
o No HTML
o Western or US-ASCII only
o 80 characters per line or less
Also, be advised that there have been "SPAM trigger words" added to the
language filter. If you have a signature pasted on your mail, it may contain
one of these words. Of course, the server will tell you what line is bad when
it rejects the post. There are some others put in place to trap administrivia
that will cause the server to send the post on to its silent demise. One of
these is the word "p*stmaster" (replace the "*" with "o". If your post ever
seems to mysteriously disappear into the ether, check for this word in your
headers or signature. There are other words of this nature, and I'll add them
to the FAQ once I have the time.
Finally, the Janitor address is ported to my and the other Janitors' work
mail, and was getting unindated with SPAM. Rather than have our (or, at
least,mine, anyway) employer preclude all mail generated by the HBD domain,
I've ported the Janitor address through a Mailman address to "pre-filter" it.
The end result is that it will not recognize your address, and will send you
a "You're not allowed to post" note. Fret not. I have it retain the rejected
notes and I read them before discarding them.
- --
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE MI
pbabcock at hbd.org
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:13:42 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Postint 101 and Professor Janitor's Email Address
[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html]
Trimmed to < 80 character lines.
On Tuesday, 14 September 2004 at 21:16:24 -0400, Pat Babcock wrote:
> Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your plain text advocate...
>
> "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> intones:
>
>
>> Third time round it still managed to find some non-ASCII characters.
>> Pat, could you at least get it *what* it doesn't like?
>
> But I have, Greg. No mystery. I've published the requirements
> publically in the HBD FAQ on the HBD.ORG website. I can't be held
> accountable for the trials and tribulations of those who never
> noticed ;^)
Well, that's debatable. But what I meant here was: I looked through
the text and couldn't find any non-ASCII characters. If your program
could identify the line, it would make things easier. But there's a
better solution...
> the following are the formats considerations which the HBD requires
> at present:
>
> o No HTML
> o Western or US-ASCII only
It rejects "Western", if by that you mean ISO 8859-1 (Western
European). This is the real issue. In an area where German plays a
significant role, it's very difficult to avoid using German letters.
Writing ß instead of the German letter gets through, but it
makes it very difficult for most people to understand. Also, symbols
like ° (degree) are obviously of use, and I can't see why they
should be rejected.
> o 80 characters or less
Heh. I suppose I was the only person to get the original message with
a 160 character line :-)
> Also, be advised that there have been "SPAM trigger words" added to
> the language filter. If you have a signature pasted on your mail, it
> may contain one of these words. Of course, the server will tell you
> what line is bad when it rejects the post.
This is what I was asking for in the context above.
> There are some others put in place to trap administrivia that will
> cause the server to send the post on to its silent demise. One of
> these is the word "p*stmaster" (replace the "*" with "o".
Is this really necessary? That's one address that should always go
through.
Greg
- --
When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the
original text.
For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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