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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  FOY-2004 - Response-Starters/Cell Counts ("Rob Moline")
  Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 /  Reusing Yeast ("William Erskine")
  more hose barbs ("Mike Sharp")
  What's The Point, Mr Meeker? ("Phil Yates")
  Re: March Fitting ("Christian Rausch")
  Re: Electric Brewery ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Tips for visiting Plzen (Pilsen)? ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  serial v parallel ("Dave Burley")
  Cutting the tops off of kegs ("Doug Moyer")
  Siebel Master of Styles course ("Keith Lemcke")
  More yeast philosophy ("zuvaruvi")
  wyeast storage time (" Robert Zukosky")


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*               A Fortnight Of Yeast                    *
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*      Questions submission: 10/11 - 10/22/2004         *
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:47:46 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: FOY-2004 - Response-Starters/Cell Counts

			FOY-2004 - Response-Starters/Cell Counts
I'll start by saying thanks very much for the FOY opportunity.
Recently I saw a note that a 2L starter made using a "vial" of yeast
containing 30-60 billion cells would grow to 240 billion cells.  Since the
note appeared to be general, the assumption would have to be an aerated
starter when made and then left to sit with no swirling or further aeration.
A four to eight fold growth seems extremely high to me.  Is this
reasonable/achievable with no additional agitation or aeration?
Cheers,
Mike Dixon

Mike,
>From a normal fermentation in 12 P wort, aerated at the start, you will
harvest 4-5 times the amount of yeast that you pitched at the beginning.
An eight fold growth like you found is a bit high but not impossible. It
always depends on the yeast strain but more important on the quality of your
wort. A well aerated wort that has sufficient amounts of nitrogen and
minerals should give you this kind of growth.
Regards
Forbes & Tobias
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:13:05 -0400
From: "William Erskine" <werskin at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 /  Reusing Yeast

I have begun to reuse liquid yeast from my homebrewing and was
wondering whether it is better to save yeast from the primary 
fermentation or the secondary fermentation?  I've heard that it
is a decision whether to save "dirtier but vigourous yeast cells", or
"cleaner but  tired yeast cells".  What is your opinion on this?
keep in mind that I typically do not perform a washing 
procedure on the saved yeast.  It is stored in a sterile Mason 
jar. When I am ready to brew,  I make a starter, bring it back
to life and pitch.  

Thank you very much for your time. 

William Erskine
London, Ontario



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:25:35 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: more hose barbs

Rob Dewhirst worries about the cost of stainless...

"...but $16 is obnoxious considering the 
alternatives."

Then get the nylon female NPT hose barb fitting from McMaster, pg 225,
item 5228K17 or 5228K18

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:21:05 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: What's The Point, Mr Meeker?

>Regarding Dave Burley's recent comment on modelling sugar utilization
>Dave, the point I have been addressing is that sugars are processed
>in a particular sequence, not in parallel as you repeatedly asserted
>in your advice to Fredrik:

Sorry all,
Whilst I consider Alan a good friend (though Ray tells me he makes awful
beer- and votes for the wrong person), I have to ask, what the hell does
any of this have to do with improving your beer quality?

When ever good practical folk (like Jim Bermingham) take a spell from the
HBD, it seems to me that the lunatics take over the asylum.

Phil



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:11:18 -0400
From: "Christian Rausch" <crausch at combinedenergyservices.com>
Subject: Re: March Fitting

I did not see the original post but, reading the description, you should be
able to use these fittings from buyfittingsonline.com

16-D 1/2" NPT x 1/2 Barb = $3.76
15-D 1/2" NPT Coupling = $1.41

So if you don't mind a little extra length you can get setup for $5.17

Cheers,

Christian Rausch
www.rauschbiercompany.com





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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:40:21 +0200
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Brewery

On Wednesday, 13 October 2004 at 22:08:57 +1000, richard wrote:
> Hi !!
>
> I'm in the process of graduating to all grain and am setting up the brewery
> now.
>
> Batch size 5 gal

19 litres or 23 litres?

> and I'd like to stay indoors - so my preference is an electric
> brewery.

I'm currently in Europe, and on Monday I saw an interesting looking
gadget that might meet your needs.  http://www.brumas.com/.  The price
looks a bit steep to me.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:03:17 +0200
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Tips for visiting Plzen (Pilsen)?

I'm currently in Prague (see http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary.html),
and tomorrow I'll be continuing to Plzen (Pilsen), where I intend to
visit the brewery and the museum.  The web sites aren't overly
detailed; does anybody who has been there before have any suggestions
about what to look for, or anything else?

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:48:30 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: serial v parallel

Brewsters,

Alan Meeker says:

"All sugars
are not utilized in parallel. This is a well known phenomenon. The
presence of certain sugars such as glucose keeps the yeast from
manufacturing the very proteins needed for maltose and maltitriose
utilization therefore, they will not be used until the glucose level
drops below the inhibitory concentration.

I cant put it any simpler than that."

As I have often in the past, I will forgive what I perceive to be an arrogant 
tone and ask that you focus on the issue which you brought up.

Fischborn and Waldrop said:
"Sugars like glucose
fructose and sucrose do not require their presence to have their transporters
in the membrane, maltose and maltotriose do."

I commented from the beginning of my discussion ( with /Fredrik) about glucose 
blocking certain pathways and many other comments relating to using a kinetic 
and not a misunderstood "energy" approach in /Fredrik's <fermentation 
modelling> work.

As I said before in response to your comments, the point of my comments to 
/Fredrik had nothing to do with anything except his model design which needs 
to incorporate all pathways. As the environment changes the extant pathways 
will open, but the potential is always there, so you need to consider the 
possibilities of a parallel pathway in the <design>. The generation of the 
transporters influenced by the presence or absence of glucose is part of the 
kinetic equation.

But as far as the discussion topic which you chose to open, about what happens 
in the yeast cell, as far as I know, glucose does not block the parallel 
assimilation of fructose or sucrose. If you have any evidence besides your 
opinion, I'd like to see it

Sucrose is inverted to glucose and fructose extra-cellularly and the 
transporters for both gluose and fructose ( but I think not for sucrose in 
contast to the implication of the F&W comments) are already in the cell 
membrane, so, as far as I know, both can be assimilated simultaneously, albeit 
at different rates. This is consistent with the above comments by Fischborn 
and Waldrop saying that maltose and maltotriose assimilation can be blocked by 
the presence of  glucose.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:32:18 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cutting the tops off of kegs

DIY Brewers,

At one point recently, I asked for some direction at building a jig to use
with a 4 1/2" angle grinder, to cut the top off of a keg. I didn't get any
useful responses, but I did get a reply from someone asking me to pass on
any info that I did get.

Well, I forged ahead and rigged up something on my own.

So, for any others that would like to see how I did it, please see:

http://users.adelphia.net/~shyzaboy/homebrew-keg.html

I don't have design drawings or detail. But, it should be pretty obvious
what I did. If'n anyone is interested enough to want further detail, please
let me know...

Tinker on!
Doug Moyer
Troutville, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:12:28 -0600
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Siebel Master of Styles course

We have been getting calls from homebrewers asking for clarification about
our Master of Beer Styles & Evaluation course prerequisites. While the
course is designed for both commercial brewers and advanced homebrewers,
those with basic experience in all-grain brewing, yeast handling &
selection, and fermentation should have no problem understanding the content
in this course. The last two courses have had a very diverse student base,
and Ray Daniels, Randy Mosher & Lyn Kruger make sure that every student gets
as much as possible out of this program. If you have any question about the
course, you can contact me at klemcke at siebelinstitute.com or check the web
site at http://www.siebelinstitute.com/course_desc/ .

Keith Lemcke
Siebel Institute of Technology



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:38:57 -0700
From: "zuvaruvi" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: More yeast philosophy

Dave posted:

>>me  weather ( sic - DRB) yeast >colonize and sink >(sacch), or >colonize 
>>and
>>me  float
>>me  (brett), is largely a function of >cell density (specific gravity) 
>>and....

Dave >Chad Stevens would have us believe that "bottom" fermeting yeast are
Dave >S.cerevisiae and "top" fermenters are Brettanomyces.  Wrong.

David,

Where in my post did it say anything about top or bottom fermenting yeast? 
Where in the above quote do I even use the words "top" or "bottom?"  You 
would have us believe that I was talking about top or bottom fermenting 
yeast?  You read something into it that isn't there.

You are talking about a fermentation characteristic "kraeusen/yeast break" 
and the question was about a post fermentation characteristic 
"flocculation."  "Bottom" and "top" fermentation characteristics are 
phenomena that occur during full on ferment.  I had nothing to say about 
that and didn't intend for it to enter into the conversation.  My only point 
was that flocculation results in the majority of Saccharomyces sp. 
(especially "top and bottom fermenting") ending up on the bottom of the 
fermentor and many Brettanomyces/Dekkera sp. ending up floating on top of 
the media.  I was using these two genus as what I thought were simple 
examples of yeast which either "flocc-up" or "flocc-down" and that in my 
humble opinion, in nature, this is probably largely the same mechanism and 
we only see a robust effect (up or down) because we artificially create huge 
volumes of growing/fermenting media.  I could have used S. bayanus or a 
couple of Pichia sp. as examples (or Candida for that matter, but we don't 
want that thread rearing its' ugly head again) but these are unfamiliar to 
most brewers and as a result would have merely muddied the waters.

Anyway, I made the grand assumption 99% of our readership where 
sophisticated enough in their understanding of Brettanomyces/Dekkera sp. and 
Saccharomyces sp. to not in any way confuse the two or my meaning.  However, 
if at first glance you misunderstood my message (which by now is most 
certainly obscured by the current obfuscation), I'm sure others 
misunderstood as well.  So, thank you for the clarification (and the 
spelling lesson; can't spell to save my life.  Maybe it's because we got 
four inches of rain over the last four days so I've had weather on my brain. 
By the way, what is "yeast philosopy" and "fermeting" (sic, on you to)).

In any case, I'll certainly "keep on brewin'!"

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego 



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:45:44 -0400
From: " Robert Zukosky" <Rzukosky at comcast.net>
Subject: wyeast storage time

I recently wacked a wyeast pack Bohemian 2124 dated 24 jan 2001. Six days
later it has swelled. My questions are:
1. What condition can I expect of the yeast.
2. Can I expect mutations.
If the yeast was pure at packageing and survived aging why would there be a
change in dna. All packaged yeast I use will go into a starter.
 Thanks for your replies. Bob Zukosky



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