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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Several queries (CRF)
  bulging cans (mage!lou)
  Re: Soldering and your wort chiller. (Chris Shenton)
  Re: Chiller, kettle, and thermometer (Chris Shenton)
  Soldering and your wort chiller. (spencer)
  Quick maturing mead/melomel? (Mark.Leone)
  Soldering scare (Donald P Perley)
  Re: My Daddy's Old Beer Recipe -- a diatribe (John DeCarlo)
  Hayes Homebrew (CORONELLRJDS)
  Of definitions and technicalities; plus a question (Craig L. Flowers)
  Homebrew-in-a-bag (David Fudenberg)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 11:28 EST
From: CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU
Subject: Several queries

Hi there!


The first of my several queries is:  would whomever posted the recipe (or 
partial recipe) for pseudo-Old Peculier please email me that same info?  I 
thought I had saved it, and discovered I hadn't.

Next:  is there or is there not such a thing as a bag for holding adjuncts 
during the boil?  Or, should I just plan on using cheesecloth when I'm ready 
to brew up my oatmeal stout?

Regarding my on-going framboise project (and you thought I wouldn't mention it 
this posting :-) :  in brewing up my first 5 gal, I experienced a few problems 
from a couple of the ingredients, although no big deal.  These I've already 
figured out how to fix.  The one aspect I'm unsure how to handle is the 
raspberry flavor.  The *aroma* is incredible, but the *flavor* is very light.  
There is also an over-riding dryness, but I expect that to pretty much vanish 
with aging.  (However, just out of curiosity:  does anyone else think that 
the source of the astringincy/dryness might be the raspberry seeds that found 
their way into the fermenter?)

What I'm thinking of doing next time is letting the raspberries ferment 
longer.  Four or 5 days has been cited by some local brewers as an approximate 
maximum fermenting time, as after that period the fruit will begin to decay 
without cold storage to prevent spoilage during further maceration.  Any 
comments?

Last:  any tips on freezing a Wyeast culture pending future use?  For example, 
should I freeze it as is, or start the culture?

Many, many thanks, in advance!


                         Yours in Carbonation,

                                      Cher 


"God save you from a bad neighbor and from a beginner on the fiddle." --
   Italian proverb
=============================================================================

	Cheryl Feinstein              INTERNET:  CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU
	Univ. of Fla.                 BITNET:  CRF at UFPINE
	Gainesville, FL

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 11:04:49 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: bulging cans

There has been a lot traffic lately regarding bulging cans and botulism.  Here
are the results of an empirical study.

I was recently asked to brew a keg for an upcoming homebrewers' barbeque and
camp-out.  The materials were given to me, including several cans of
Alexander's pale malt extract that were bulging > 1/2 inch on both ends.  I was
somewhat dubious but figured 1) "nothing harmful can live in beer", 2) I
wasn't paying for it and if it came out horrible I had lost nothing, and 3) this
is the first time my beer has had high visibility and I had a ready excuse that
could cover any mistakes of my own.

The cans had areas of white stuff, mostly down the side of the can, that I
assume were the cause of the bulging (like I said, this is empirical, not
scientific).  The wort had more than double my usual amount of trub, presumably
from the proteins in the little buggers growing in the can.

I bottled the beer that wouldn't fit in the keg.  I'm having the first bottle
of it as I write this, however it is only 24 days in the bottle so it is
difficult to say what it might eventually become (the party is in 9 days but
this is all the time I was given).  I was asked to brew something light and
thirst-quenching for a hot summer day with low alcohol.  I think this beer
satisfies what I was asked to do although it bears little resemblance to what I
would prefer to brew.  It's pleasant but nothing to write home about (e.g. just
what I was asked to brew).

For any of you going to the "Beer and Steer", look for a pale ale with my name
on it (I think it is keg #15 or #16.  Don't confuse it with keg #1 which I also
brewed and you will probably find more interesting.)

Louis Clark
mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu


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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 11:28:45 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Soldering and your wort chiller.

Charlie Woloszynski writes:
> In Monday's digest, there was a posting (I forgot by whom) from
> a fellow brewer who was going to solder some supports between
> loops in his wort chiller.  I'm not sure its a problem, but 
> solder has significant levels of lead in it (~50% depending on the type)
> and I would be worried that this lead may poison your beer.

You can buy lead-free solder from any decent (and some not-so-good)
hardware stores. 

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 11:48:44 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Chiller, kettle, and thermometer

Pete Soper writes:
>   Plastic cling film works very well to seal the gap between the pot lid and
> the pot during cooling. I drilled a hole in my lid
> that is just big enough for a glass lab thermometer to hang into the wort.

Ay, carumba! *Glass*??

Gads, after spending 5-6 hours mashing, sparging, boiling, and cooling, I
would hate to think of tossing my just-cooled batch because my thermometer
broke, spilling mercury and glass-shrapnel into the wort.

You can get a bi-metal dial-type thermometer from any photo-supply
store for about $10-$15; Edmunds Scientific also has them. They react
very quickly, are easy to read, and don't break (well, you'd have to
work at it :-). Mine can also be recalibrated.

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Date:  Thu, 19 Jul 90 13:23:45 -0400
From: spencer at zip.eecs.umich.edu
Subject: Soldering and your wort chiller.

Charlie Woloszynski writes:
 > ...  I'm not sure its a problem, but 
 > solder has significant levels of lead in it (~50% depending on the type)
 > and I would be worried that this lead may poison your beer.

Modern plumbing solders have no lead, because of the potential for
lead leaching from the solder into the drinking water.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		EECS Dept, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer at eecs.umich.edu		313-936-2616 (8-6 E[SD]T M-F)


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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 14:16:10 EDT
From: Mark.Leone at F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Quick maturing mead/melomel?

I'm planning to try my hand at making a raspberry melomel (a mead with
fruit).  I understand many meads take at least a year of bottle
conditioning, but that others are relatively quickly maturing.

I'd like to make a quick maturing mead first, to figure out what I
like.  What ingredients should be avoided to get a quick maturing
mead?  Is the variety of honey used important here?  

Anyone have a good beginner's recipe?  Any other miscellaneous advice?
(I've read Papazian and scanned past issues of the Digest, so I have a
reasonable grasp of the procedures involved.)

Also, can I bottle mead in beer bottles?  I have yet to find a free
source of champagne bottles... 

 - Mark Leone, mleone at cs.cmu.edu

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 16:14:28 EDT
From: perley at glacier.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Soldering scare


Charlie Woloszynski writes:

>In Monday's digest, there was a posting (I forgot by whom) from
>a fellow brewer who was going to solder some supports between
>loops in his wort chiller.  I'm not sure its a problem, but 
>solder has significant levels of lead in it (~50% depending on the type)
>and I would be worried that this lead may poison your beer.

I hate to fan the flames in HBD, but can't people READ anymore?
Here is the relevant line from Mondays article:

>to keep the coils spaced apart, and the individual wraps spaced as well.  
>Silver solder everywhere, of course.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

SILVER, NOT LEAD!!!

I am a little short fused about this because I once asked about using
all tin solder on the copper (as is done with copper pots) and it
generated a weeks worth of warnings about tin being an alloy of lead.
NOT ON MY PERIODIC TABLE!

In both cases we went to the effort of indicating that we didn't
intend to use the usual 60/40 or 50/50 solder, but a lot of
people just didn't notice.

Apologies to the astute.

 -don perley


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Date: Thursday, 19 Jul 1990 16:28:56 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: My Daddy's Old Beer Recipe -- a diatribe

>From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>

>The recipe was amusing in its naivete, but how much better are ours?
>...
>We need to demand that our suppliers tell us what they're selling us, and
>get more serious with our technique. I hate seeing First Place recipes in
>Zymurgy which say something like ``Initial Gravity: unknown''; I mean, come
>on! it must have been pure luck that the batch turned out well!
>...
>Frankly, I'm continually surprised that we can produce beers as `good' as
>Miller at all -- it seems a real crap-shoot. At least Miller et al are
>using some science...
>
>Sorry for flaming, but that old-time recipe really brought into focus how
>close *our* brewing `science' is to witch-doctoring.

Well, suppose we now change the subject to cooking of food to
eat.  You would then be surprised that people can actually make
complicated recipes successfully at home!  They probably don't
even know what is in the ingredients they are using.  Maybe they
don't know what quantities they used:  1) Enough flour until it
looks right.  2) Salt to taste.  3) Use large potatoes.

I figure that the best cooks in the world may not ever write down
what ingredients they use, what quantities, what cooking
temperatures, etc.  They have simply learned to cook.

Now if I were a large bakery or food preparer, I would carefully
study the room temperature, oven variations, air pressure, etc.
so as to be able to *duplicate* my results elsewhere.  For those
who aren't so worried about *telling others how to duplicate*, it
isn't a big problem.

Sure, I would appreciate as much information as I can get when
trying to duplicate someone else's recipe, but the people *I*
know who make the best beer have gotten tired of writing things
down and don't even remember *what* went into the beer--it just
felt right.

John "I agree, though, that we should start a movement to find
out what is in the extracts we use--Yellow Dog is a step in the
right direction" DeCarlo

ARPANET:  M14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (or M14051%mwvm at mitre.arpa)
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 09:51 MST
From: CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU
Subject: Hayes Homebrew

Greetings:

	Are there are readers in the Penn State region out there?  About 
two months ago, I ordered 7 gross bottle caps from a shop called Hayes 
Homebrew Supplies (?) in State College, in response to an advertisement in 
Zymurgy.  I haven't got my bottle caps yet, and my check has not yet been 
cashed.  Is Hayes still in business?  Went on a homebrew drinking binge?  
Just wondering, (not worryin').
		Chuck Coronella

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 17:52:58 CDT
From: flowers at sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Craig L. Flowers)
Subject: Of definitions and technicalities; plus a question

Just some opinions and comments about what others have submitted....
- ----
Pete Soper:  the submission in digest #463 was concise, interesting and
extremely helpful.  I think you hit every topic you discussed right on the head!
- ----
Gary Mason writes:
I remembered a note I had seen somewhere (I would credit, but I forgot the
source) that mentioned Ts in the cooler.  So, I have changed my design to
have the two concentric coils each feed cold water in (rather than one long
loop being heated the whole way), and exhaust to a single pipe on the way out.
That should raise the efficiency considerably.

Actually, Gary, this should LOWER your efficiency.  I know you mean that the
cooling process will go much faster but this is not neccesarily more efficient.
The dictionary defines efficient as 'productive without waste' (Webster).  A
long loop will allow the water to extract heat from your wort for a longer
period of time.  When the water nears the end of the long loop it will not
extract very much heat because its temperature will be close to that of the
wort, however, that water will have extracted as much as it can.  With the
two coils, the water is absorbing more heat faster but it is probably exiting
cooler than the wort which means it still can absorb more heat if given 
the chance.  Thus there is more waste and less efficiency.  Of course, most
homebrewers would propably sacrifice some efficiency for speed I was just
refering to you choice of words.
- ----
Chriss Shenton writes:
...
I hate seeing First Place recipes in
Zymurgy which say something like ``Initial Gravity: unknown''; I mean, come
on! it must have been pure luck that the batch turned out well!
...
Frankly, I'm continually surprised that we can produce beers as `good' as
Miller at all -- it seems a real crap-shoot. At least Miller et al are
using some science...
...

There were some good points in this post, but I don't think they relate to these
two comments.  Remeber that Miller and other big producers are trying to 
produce consistent results especially where taste is concerned.  As homebrewers
we are usually not as concerned with producing an EXACT taste or character.
We aim for precise taste and character but if we miss by a little, the beer
will most likely be very good tasting anyway so we are happy.  Therefore, not
knowing the initial gravity does not mean we are lucky to produce a good or
great beer.  It may be next to impossible to duplicate but still a well planned
good taste.  Our brewing practices and techniques make our beer good.  Let
the mass producers worry about duplication, I like the subtle (and sometimes
not so subtle) variations.
- ----
Tracy Bowlin writes:
I suspect that Coors is worried that Bush may corner the
market in South East Idaho or that with increased competition force
barley prices higher.

As I learned it, increased competition forces LOWER prices.  I know that was
the theory behind the break-up of Ma Bell several years ago.  

It is also a little confusing as to whether Coors is; WORRIED about higher
barley prices -or- attempting to force higher barley prices.  Why would Coors
want higher barley prices anyway, they BUY barley not sell it.

Anyway, I found the info about Bush interesting.   Sounds like a great place to
live to me.
- ----
A question:  what are all grain brewers using to crack their grains?  I think
those coffee grinders you see in grocery stores would be great but I don't know
how to get one or how much they would be.  Most I have seen have at least three
setting for different coarseness.


 -Craig  (flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu)

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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 90 07:48:44 PDT
From: dfuden at fudenberg.net.com (David Fudenberg)
Subject: Homebrew-in-a-bag

In response to Ihor W. Slabicky's question about Homebrew-in-a-bag:

	I attended the KQED Beer Tasing on 7/14/90. Homebrew-in-a-bag
	(or whatever the name is) was there. The beer was not worth drinking:
	fairly weak (akin to American Beer), but with a slightly off taste.

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 90 09:15:44 PDT
From: ogicse!context.MENTOR.COM!keng at decwrl.dec.com (Ken Giles  at  Context x453)

Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com> writes:

>you have hopefully read of the hazards of chlorine as an oxidizer by now. Never,
>never, ever soak your chiller in a strong chlorine solution. It will be covered
>with green powdered copper oxide and then you have to get out the sand paper

I have a counterflow wort chiller (copper inside) which I cleaned once with a
bleach solution and since with trisodium phosphate (TSP). Does anyone know if TSP
has the same oxidizing properties as clorine? How are other people cleaning their
counterflow chillers? Miller says that caustic soda can be had at some hardware
stores. Has anyone tried it? Seems a bit too dangerous to me, but I don't want
to ruin my chiller (only been used twice, so far).

kg.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #464, 07/20/90
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