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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  pH Meter Accuracy ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Alaska Needs Your Support! (Jeff Renner)
  Re: pH meter accuracy question ("Martin Brungard")
  Go Black and Blue, ("Dave Burley")
  Roasting Barley ("Rowan Williams")
  pH meters ("Dave Burley")


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:20:09 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: pH Meter Accuracy

A pH meter with accuracy of 0.1 is of limited value to the serious 
brewer. Many of the pH changes of concern (for example the pH drop 
resulting from in a decoction or the mash pH reduction resulting from 
addition of a modest amount of gypsum to a mash) are of magnitude close 
to or less than that. Furthermore, meters that advertize that level of 
readability are often pretty poorly made and will drift rapidly not to 
mention that their probes are not likely to last very long.

pH is a very important parameter in brewing. I think I posted a while 
back about a three day conference I attended in Belgium in September 
which was devoted entirely to this subject. But understanding its 
significance  and the art of its measurement require some investment in 
time and money on the brewer's part. Cheap pH meters are bound to be a 
dissapointment at best and can mislead you seriously at worst. Even a 
good one, which is an investment of hundreds of $, requires maintenance, 
care and experience in its use and interpretation of its readings. 
Meters MUST be calibrated with fresh, uncontaminated buffers which span 
the reading range, at least daily and preferrably more often than that. 
The reference junctions, unless of the free flowing type, are forever 
clogging throwing readings well off. The bulbs are subject to error from 
protein buildup and very fragile so careful cleaning with proteolyzing 
enzymes is required fairly frequently. Even with good maintenance a $200 
probe can't be expected to last for more than a year or 2 years at best.

There is some good news recently though in the ISFET probes in which the 
pH sensor is actually a transistor (though the reference junction is 
still similar to what it was in the glass electrode days). These are 
much more rugged, can be cleaned with a toothbrush and stored dry. I 
don't have much experience with them though what I have has been, thus 
far, positive.

So I guess my bottom line advice is don't waste your money on a cheapie 
meter. If you can find someone who is familiar with pH meters or in 
particular someone who uses them regularly in brewing get that person to 
show you the ropes with them and help you find one that is suitable. 
Note that brewing is one of the most problematic industries for pH 
measurement because of the proteins, heat, viscosity and solids. The 
solutions to these problems all add $ to the cost of the electrodes.

A.J.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:35:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Alaska Needs Your Support!

Pete Devaris  <pdevaris at gci.net> wrote:

>Would you attend an AHA Convention in Anchorage, Alaska?

As a member of the AHA Board of Advisors, I want to respond to Pete.

I love the enthusiasm of the Anchorage group and that they are 
fighting to have a NHC in their town.  This is the kind of fire that 
invigorates the hobby of homebrewing.  This is a great problem for 
any organization to have - clubs fighting for the right to host a 
national conference.  I take my hat off to the Anchorage club for 
their energy and committment.  The entire board welcomes a public 
discussion of this.

While I am skeptical that you all can bring the costs down to those 
of other cities in the lower 48, I would love to be proven wrong.

The board definitely did consider the proposal,  although we did not 
each see the 300+ page document itself.  We relied on Paul Gatza's 
distillation of this document, and then had a fairly extended 
discussion.  We have reopened the discussion thanks to Pete's 
prompting.

Our concern is the cost of the conference.  There are two main areas 
of this concern.  First, we want to be sure that the conference 
doesn't lose money.  But more important is that we want the total 
cost of attending to be within the reach of the average homebrewer. 
The NHC is a membership benefit only if it is affordable.

I think it is important that NHC not be elitist.  Charlie Papazian 
pointed out at the last NHC that it was a graying crowd that 
attended.  He was concerned that the hobby is becoming one of middle 
aged (mostly) men.  I don't think this is reflective of homebrewing 
demographics but rather of those who attend NHC.

Based at least on local clubs I am familiar with, there are lots of 
younger people in the hobby.  But they are often on tighter budgets 
than empty-nesters.  Many brewers are engineers and high-tech types 
with a fair amount of disposable income, but many others are 
students, sales clerks, mechanics, tradesmen, etc.  I don't want to 
price NHC further out of reach of them.

Some people come to the NHC every year, and as someone who has 
attended now four out of the last five years, I know how great it is 
to see the same people every year.  But many attendees come only once 
in a great while, and cost is a determining factor.

Pete has sent me a private email showing that rooms/suites at the 
University of Alaska would be very inexpensive.  That sounds great. 
That could offset high airfare costs.

But the airfare costs are my big concern.  Board Member Mike Hall 
researched these (great work, Mike):

>I went to expedia.com and checked on the
>cheapest prices to fly to Anchorage and to Baltimore from various
>locations. The flight dates were 6/15-19/2005. I picked cities that
>were close to all of our advisors and the AHA HQ, for a scattered
>representation. For more balance, I threw in Seattle, Portland,
>and Honolulu.
>
>City                to Anchorage        to Baltimore       Difference*
>
>Albuquerque, NM         495                  308              187
>Anchorage, AK             0                  514             -514
>Baltimore, MD           514                    0              514
>Chicago, IL (ORD)       497                  163              334
>Dallas, TX              401                  267              134
>Dayton, OH              585                  125              460
>Denver, CO              460                  337              123
>Des Moines, IA          604                  270              334
>Detroit, MI             566                  173              393
>Fargo, ND               645                  402              243
>Gainesville, FL         620                  280              340
>Honolulu, HI            748                  621              127
>Kansas City, MO         509                  168              341
>Knoxville, TN           697                  264              433
>Los Angeles, CA         508                  234              274
>Pittsburg, PA           548                  288              260
>Portland, OR            456                  379               77
>San Francisco, CA       437                  399               38
>Seattle, WA             234                  291              -57
>
>* - Positive means Alaska is more expensive.
>
>Note that the only city (except Anchorage) which is cheaper for
>Alaska is Seattle. Even Portland is more expensive for Alaska!

And these cheapest flights may not be what you want to take.  For me, 
for example, that $566 flight from Detroit is on Air West via 
Phoenix, and leaves Detroit at 5PM, arriving the next day at 12:35AM, 
for an 11-1/2 hour flight arriving after midnight local time, or 
4:48AM Detroit time!  I don't relish finding a ride to UoA at that 
hour!  Even a nonstop is seven-plus hours, and costs $665, arriving 
at 6:20 PM local.  That price would just about shut me out.

Pete has written in private email that "Eight different airlines will 
be willing to offer group rates that range from 5%-40% discounts off 
full published fares."  I'd need to see specifics on this.  Five 
percent off of full fares, which no one pays anyway, is nothing. 
Forty percent may be worth considering, but it could still be pretty 
high.

The location of a conference is not necessarily all that important. 
There is so much happening inside that many of us hardly leave the 
hotel.  Alaska is no doubt a wonderful place to visit, but there's 
not much opportunity to explore unless you stay over.

I think that if the board could be convinced that the total cost of 
attending would be comparable to other cities, we would love to have 
the Anchorage brewers host NHC 2006.

See you in Baltimore in June, 2005.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:40:11 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: pH meter accuracy question

I have used a pH meter with 0.01 resolution for several years now.  I can 
say that the greater degree of resolution is unnecessary for several 
reasons.

The first reason is the ability to calibrate the meter accurately.  You 
would have to always have fresh calibration solutions at hand.  I still have 
half of the pint-sized bottle left for each of my calibration solutions (4 & 
7) after these several years.  I'm not sure if they have changed much, but 
the bottles say to replace the solution after a year (I'm guessing on the 
replacement interval since the bottles are at home).  Its a long assumption 
to say that I can measure down to a hundreth accurately when I'm not sure 
what standard I was calibrating to.  I am more comfortable saying that I'm 
probably measuring to within a tenth, though.

The second reason is the variation in what you're measuring.  With 
temperature effects and variation in wort throughout the mash tun, you might 
easily see variations of several hundreths.  Sure, there are temperature 
compensating meters, but they are only as good as their compensation 
algorithm.  All these factors lead me to quote the mantra, "Garbage in, 
Garbage out".  In this fog, hundreths are nearly useless.

The third reason is related to the "need to know".  How much do you really 
need to know about pH?  In brewing, pH guidance is given in ranges that 
extend several tenths.  As long as you are within the proper range, there is 
little need for additional resolution.

I might have the resolution on my meter, but I don't need it.  Let the 
price, functionality, or durability serve as your reason to select a 
particular pH meter, not resolution.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:35:32 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Go Black and Blue,

Brewsters:

John Palmer says:

" I am more willing to foot the bill than say, Ohio, for example
(unless they're playing Michigan the same weekend)."

John, contemplate this. I did my B.S. at Ohio State and SWMBO did hers at 
U.Michigan.  She will come down with Turret's syndrome at every Michigan 
mistake this coming Saturday.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:26:31 -0800
From: "Rowan Williams" <rowan at canberrabrewers.org>
Subject: Roasting Barley

Hi all, 

I have a bag of Bairds Stout Malt and guess what, I want to make a 
stout!  Now, the Bairds website has a profile for the stout malt
here: 
http://www.bairds-malt.co.uk/maltTypes.htm#stout

In particular...
                                 ASBC       IOB       EBC 
Moisture %                       4 max      4 max     4 max 
Extract fine grind dry basis  %  80 min     305 min   80 min 
Fine-coarse difference  %        1.5-2.5              1-3 
Colour  (degrees)                2-4        3-6       4-6 
Protein  %                       11 max     1.75 max  1.75 max 
Soluble/Total Protein  %         42-46      38-44     42-46 
Diastatic Power (degrees)L       60-70 min  65 min    200 min 
(apologies if the spacing is all over the shop in your browser!)

As you can see, the Bairds Stout malt is a rather pale malt and I
need some roasted barley for my stout recipe.  Can I bake some of 
this stout malt and obtain roasted barley from the stout malt or am
I barking up the wrong tree? 

I have read several articles on the net concerning roasting your 
malts, but my fear is that this is not the sort of malt that will 
take kindly to some heating in the oven.   

Your thoughts? 

Cheers, 
Rowan Williams 
Canberra Brewers Club 
Australia 






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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:16:19 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: pH meters

Brewsters:

AJ says it is a good idea to have an accurate pH meter and I agree.

But he also says the electrodes don't last more than a year, which is the 
industry "standard", if you talk to the purveyors. So, don't buy an expensive 
one.

Temperature compensation is a must in my opinion, as we rarely have a constant 
temperature bath hanging around. This also typically improves the accuracy to 
which the manufacturuer claims.  Since the electronics is basically identical, 
it is my experience that when the manufacturer claims 0.01 it is with a 
temperature compensated electrode and with 0.1 it is not temperature 
compensated. The price differential is near zero in most cases.

Don't depend too much on this feature and cool or warm your samples to near RT 
for the best results.

I have a pH electrode/meter which has lasted me a few years from Omega.com. I 
don't have the name here, but it is a rugged one used in the field work for 
environmentalists and I think probably cost about $50 and comes in a pocket 
sized portable case. No replacable electrode. I recall it wasn't under the 
normal list of pH meters at omega.com.

As far as buffers go, these citro-phosphate buffers have a primary fault in 
that the bacteria love them, which changes the pH if they are active. Even 
though they have antibacterial agents added to these buffer solutions, I 
wouldn't trust them more than a year. And don't ever put your electrode 
directly into the bottle to calibrate it! Can you say contamination? Some 
people store their buffers in the fridge, but if you do be sure the 
calibration sample is at room temperature.

To minimize the volume used,  I use a small plastic medicine bottle About (3/4 
in X 3 inches)  to hold the buffer sample which is thrown away after use.

I also cut a hole the same size as the electrode diameter in the plastic top 
of a similar medicine bottle to hold the storage solution and I store the 
electrode submerged in a proper storage solution ( never distilled water).

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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