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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Distilling Barley Wine ("Ian Thorn")
  IBU's and Cooling ("David Craft")
  Another question about copper ("Paul Fisher")
  Re: Bitterness from late addition hops (Fred Johnson)
  ISFET Meters ("A.J deLange")
  RE: Distilling Barley Wine (K.M.)" <kmuell18@visteon.com>
  RE: Immersion vs Counterflow Chillers (Steven Parfitt)
  Re: Bitterness from late addition hops (Grant Family)
  Re: distilling ("Haborak, Kevin")


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:49:45 +1100
From: "Ian Thorn" <ayeupmeduck at hotmail.com>
Subject: Distilling Barley Wine


>  My Christmas barley wine is not carbonating. It was brewed early January
> and
> kept in secondary in a fridge for 6 months at approx. 40 degrees and
bottled
> in late June. Late July I opened a bottle to taste and it tasted great but
> was flat. I opened all bottles and added a sugar syrup and champagne yeast
> starter. In September it was still flat but tasted sweeter and there was a
> thin layer of dark crud at the bottom of the bottle. I was using some
hootch
> printed overrun caps that could possibly be the culprit as I think the
crud
> signifies that fermentaion took place. I think it is going to be too much
> effort to save this batch and rather than pouring it the drain I am
> contemplating distilling it using a pressure cooker, it is already 14%
abv.
> Has anybody tried this? Any ideas on what results to expect? Could I
> possibly end up with a malt
> whiskey for Christmas?
>

Hi, I think that would be a bad idea, some friends of mine once did a
similar thing (distilled a porter, because they could), from what I heard it
was really bad, all the hop aromas were concentrated and it was not
drinkable or useable in the slightest way (and they used a proper still at
Uni)

Ian,
Sydney, Australia


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Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:03:43 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: IBU's and Cooling

Fred,

I use an immersion chiller and feel that I am getting about 5 IBU's more
than what Promash tells me I should get.  I have discussed this with
several members of my club who have reviewed my recipes and techniques.  We
feel that the hot wort continues to extract IBU's , mostly from the late
addition hops, until it reaches some magic temperature.  Since I chill the
entire wort at one time with an immersion chiller I am getting these
additional IBU's.

Mmmmmm,  I have not thought about adding my last additions once the wort
has cooled some.  Any thoughts on this out there??

I have adjusted my recipes accordingly.........for now.

David B. Craft
Club Secretary
Battleground Brewers Guild
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:41:14 -0500
From: "Paul Fisher" <snapfisher at att.net>
Subject: Another question about copper



I've been following the discussion last week about using a copper chiller,
and something has been bugging me for years....

When I use a copper immersion chiller, it always comes out of the wort
sparkling clean.  So where did the tarnish go?  In the beer?  I figure this
has no real effect on the beer, but what is the tarnish?  Is it just oxygen
bound up with the copper that gets scrubbed off by the boiling?  I also
 noticed the same effect in my homemade mash tun which uses a copper tube as
the spout.  The inch or so that is exposed in the mash is much cleaner than
the rest.

Paul



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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:03:27 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Bitterness from late addition hops

Dear Stuart:

Thanks to Stuart for his reply to my post regarding late hop additions 
and bitterness contributions. I must disagree with his assertion that 
the hops sitting in the hot wort will not contribute much bitterness 
after flame out. I believe isomerization is primarily a function of 
time and temperature.  And the hops settling to the bottom of the 
kettle will not affect this. They are bathed in wort. Besides the alpha 
acids aren't at the bottom of the kettle. Correct me if I am wrong, but 
I believe they are dissolved or at least emulsified in the wort.  If it 
takes 30 minutes to drain the kettle, your flameout addition has just 
become a significant bittering addition. Likewise, the hops you added 
at 30 minutes have now contributed close to their full alpha acid 
potential to the bitterness.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:07:29 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: ISFET Meters

A couple more questions on pH electrodes have come up. First: ISFET (Ion 
Selective Field Effect Transistor) is a technology that has been around 
for 10 years or more but only fairly recently has become commonly 
available at tolerable prices. Most of the big name 
manufacturers/suppliers (Orion, Omega etc.) now offer ISFET electrodes.

When a conventional electrode is reaching the end of its service life 
the first symptom is usually slowed response. At this point the 
electrode is typically "rejuvenated" by processes which depend on the 
electrode but usually involve cleaning or replacing the junction and 
cleaning the surface of the glass bulb - both according to the 
manufacturers instructions. The degree of agressiveness used depends on 
the state of decline of the electrode. Rejuvenation is usually repeated 
a few times but with dimininshing returns and eventually it's time for a 
new electrode.

A.J.


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:13:22 -0500
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: RE: Distilling Barley Wine

Alan Colton in Belize (lucky guy) asks about distilling his Barley Wine.

My guess (complete guess, take it as such!) is that the bitterness from the
hops might give you problems.  However, I've never distilled anything, so I
could be VERY wrong as only the alcohol should carry over.  I'd love to hear
about the results!

Check out http://www.homedistiller.org/ for some good information on
distilling.  I read some of it, and it seems sound.  My new filter at work
won't let me open it though!

Kevin
Canton, MI


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:56:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Immersion vs Counterflow Chillers

Fred Johnson is pondering chiller effect on final
bitterness


>I have brewed using an immersion chiller for many 
>years and have recently switched to a counter flow 
>chiller. I have noticed that my beers are more bitter
>than in the past since the switch, and this is 
>undoubtedly due to the fact that the wort remains at 
>a high temperature-- a temperature at which the alpha

>acids isomerize--for a longer period of time during
>the counterflow cooling than when an immersion 
>chiller is used.

 ...snip...

One thing I have done is to keep my old immersion
chiller, and use it in addition to my CFC. I take the
water out from my CFC and feed it into the immersion
chiller.

Water out of it is put in buckets to use for clean up.
Nice hot water works well for cleaning the half barrel
kegs....

Steven 


=====
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian 

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968


		


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:35:11 +1100
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Bitterness from late addition hops

Hi all,

(Sorry if this appears twice).

Fred wrote:
>I have brewed using an immersion chiller for many years and have
>recently switched to a counter flow chiller. I have noticed that my
>beers are more bitter than in the past since the switch, and this is
>undoubtedly due to the fact that the wort remains at a high
>temperature-- a temperature at which the alpha acids isomerize--for a
>longer period of time during the counterflow cooling than when an
>immersion chiller is used.

Firstly, I don't have any numbers, nor much experience in this area 
(although I have just switched from immersion to CF chiller).

BUT, I'm not convinced that much isomerization of alpha acids would be 
happening after the gas/element is switched off. My understanding is that 
isomerization has a lot to do with the physical action of the boil as it 
does with temperature. Also, when you're using a counterflow chiller, the 
hops and break material quickly settle out and this would surely limit 
isomerization as well. So while there would be SOME additional 
isomerization happening while the late hops are sitting there in hot wort, 
I don't think it's anything that would be noticeable. I was playing with 
the numbers in Promash (using Rager hop formula) and even if you decided to 
compensate for the long soak in hot wort by adding 5-10mins to the time the 
hops were boiled, the level of AA isomerization doesn't go up much. It was 
around 5 IBUs when I tried it with a Pilsner recipe of mine with lots of 
late hops.

So I don't think that the extra bitterness you've noticed in your brews 
post-CFC are primarily from additional isomerization. There are other 
things going on here and someone else may have ideas. One thing I will say 
is that with a number of official and unofficial IBU calculators and 
formulae out there, not to mention the myriad variations of personal method 
that would effect bitterness, not to mention personal perception 
differences, the accuracy of any recipe is limited.

I think you are right, however, that cooling time is not considered by 
homebrewers and I think this is especially true in the case of hop flavour 
and aroma perception. I've often wondered why bitterness is calculated 
(IBUs), while hop aroma and flavour is not. Given that hop aroma is simpler 
than AA isomerization - perhaps as simple as evaporation of hop oils based 
on temperature - the use of a CFC is going to really effect how much hop 
aroma remains.

But I think that it's too complicated and I'll have a beer now.
Cheers
Stuart Grant,
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.



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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:07:05 -0500
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: Re: distilling

I definitely would not try to distill the beer using a pressure cooker.
Take the safe route and freeze it.  Skim the ice off the top as it
freezes.



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