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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Predicting IBUs: Immersion vs counterflow chillers (Fred Johnson)
  haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown ("Rob Moline")
  Distilling Barleywine ("Rob Moline")
  copper oxides (Randy Ricchi)
  Distillation, pH pHilospHy ("A.J deLange")
  RE: distilling (Bill Velek)
  Re: Temperature Correction (Hop Utilization) (val.dan.morey)
  Bittering, flavor and aroma ("Peed, John")
  2004 Mid-South Homebrew Series Winners ("info")
  More on late hop additions ("Mike Sharp")
  What's up with this!? ("Sean Harper")


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:25:29 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Predicting IBUs: Immersion vs counterflow chillers

I'm truly grateful for the work Dan Morey put into my question about 
hop utilization using immersion versus counterflow chillers.

Dan says:
> Combining Garetz elevation/temperature correction with the standard
> atmosphere table and steam tables, I came up with the following
> correction for temperature:
>
> Ct = 0.022 * e^(0.018 * T), where T is temperature in degrees F
>
> Effective utilization is:
>
> %Uc = %util * Ct

I must ask if the equation Dan has used which corrects utilization as a 
function of temperature well accepted in the industry/community?

It certainly surprised Dan (and me) to see that this equation predicts 
a significant contribution of bitterness from dry hopping.

Finally, do we know how fast the wort was cooled by those pioneers who 
have produced the formulas we all use for calculating IBUs?  Perhaps 
Dan has given us reason to make some adjustments to those formulas.  
How many of us brew one liter batches in a laboratory and crash cool 
the wort within a few minutes?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:10:06 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown

			haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown

Tobias to the rescue...
     It is very difficult to determine ploidy in brewing strains. Only lab
strains are haploid or diploid. Brewing strains are at least diploid
most of them are polyploid or anoiploid (an abnormality involving a
chromosome number that is not an exact multiple of the haploid number)
Tobias

> Anyone have a haploid/diploid/tetrapoid breakdown of various commonly
> available brewing yeast?  I assume most single strain ale are haploid
> and most single strain lager are tetrapoid but are there any diploid
> strains floating around out there? I do a lot of re-pitching; it's more
> a question about stability than anything.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chad Stevens
> QUAFF
> San Diego

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:30:13 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Distilling Barleywine

			Distilling Barleywine
     Unless you are running out of bottles, wait another year...or two..BW's
take time, and what you can't appreciate now, may be golden later.
     This was certainly the case in my best BW.
Gump

My Christmas barley wine is not carbonating. It was brewed early January
and
kept in secondary in a fridge for 6 months at approx. 40 degrees and bottled
in late June. Late July I opened a bottle to taste and it tasted great but
was flat. I opened all bottles and added a sugar syrup and champagne yeast
starter. In September it was still flat but tasted sweeter and there was a
thin layer of dark crud at the bottom of the bottle. I was using some hootch
printed overrun caps that could possibly be the culprit as I think the crud
signifies that fermentaion took place. I think it is going to be too much
effort to save this batch and rather than pouring it the drain I am
contemplating distilling it using a pressure cooker, it is already 14% abv.
Has anybody tried this? Any ideas on what results to expect? Could I
possibly end up with a malt
whiskey for Christmas?

 Alan Colton
Swamp Water Brewery of Belize,
Consejo Shores,
Belize.


"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:25:29 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: copper oxides

I've often seen posts like the recent one about an immersion chiller
coming out of the wort bright and shiny. The strange thing is, mine
NEVER comes out bright and shiny.
Right now my chiller is fairly dark and I've been thinking about a quick
boil in some water with lemon juice to drop the ph. This has worked will
with a small piece of copper pipe that I use on the inside of my boiler
to fasten a stainless steel scrubby for filtering my hops.

Apparently my wort ph is not low enough to dissolve the oxides, but
still low enough to make decent beer. I don't have any astringency, and
I generally get around 87% extraction rate. Does anyone know if the ph
"threshold" for dissolving copper oxides is right in the range of
typical wort ph?



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:30:55 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Distillation, pH pHilospHy

I have distilled barley wine (commercial, in the presence of it's maker, 
for the purpose of determining alcoholic strength, with the blessing of 
the BATF) and I must say the distillate stinks. But, as I said, I was 
doing it in order to obtain ALL the alcohol per the ASBC method. I 
immagine that if the object were potable spiritis the product would be 
improved by discarding the "heads" and "tails", just as a commercial 
distiller would do. Also a commercial distiller would use a column or 
multiple passes. This should help to eliminate the undesirable stuff. 
Done right what comes out of the condenser should be alcohol and water 
though traces of other organics might make it through even multiple 
passes or a column with lots of theoretical plates. These would 
probablybe  diminished if the product were stored for a time in contact 
with charcoal (which is also commercial practice).

Doing the math: 19 l (5 gal) of 10% ABV barley wine would yield at most 
1.9L of alcohol after a lot of trouble and some risk of injury. I'd buy 
a couple of fifths of vodka and be done with it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

While there is little point in extensively debating the need for pH 
measurement in home brewing I would like to at least explain the 
position of some of the perhaps geekier ones among us (or maybe I am 
alone in this) that pH is as important a measurement as temperature. We 
are all quite fastidious about hitting our temperatures within a 
fraction of a degree. Why? Because if we do that we feel that we have 
one of variables which can have a major effect on the nature of the 
final product under control. We know that if we don't have repeatability 
with respect to mash temperature that our attempts to discern the effect 
of some other process parameter that we are experimenting with (say 
fermentation temperature) may be impeded because mash temperature may be 
as much or more responsible for a perceived difference in the beer than 
the variable whose effect we are attempting to assess (fermentation 
temperature in this example). If you brew two worts in two different 
sessions and hit the same temperature and pH at each step then you are 
assured that the two worts are closer than if you only have the temp 
data because one more parameter is under control. Note that many - but 
not all - professional brewers do this. They are, of course, more 
concerned with having Old Overshoe be the same from batch to batch than 
we are in having two batches come out the same but my point here is that 
the more variables we have under control the more free we are to 
experiment with confidence. There are, of course, lots of other process 
variables that commercial brewers will  measure (malt specs, wort sugar 
spectrum, wort FAN, dissolved oxygen ....) to which the same reasoning 
applies but these all require lab time and, in many cases, really 
expensive equipment. The pH measurement, while it is more difficult to 
do than a temperature measurement and does require  more elaborate 
equipment, is within reach of the home brewer inclined to make it.

A.J.

A.J.


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:30:08 -0600
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: RE: distilling

In HBD#4657, Kevin Haborak wrote, with regard to the proposal to distill 
an off tasting beer:

"I definitely would not try to distill the beer using a pressure cooker.
Take the safe route and freeze it.  Skim the ice off the top as it
freezes."

First, I'm not sure that you are going to accomplish much besides taking 
a somewhat foul-tasting beer, and turning it into a somewhat 
foul-tasting strong-drink of some sort (brandy or whatever).

Second, what are you implying that distilling an already fermented beer 
in a pressure cooker is unsafe?  Assuming that he has an intact pressure 
relief valve and safety plug, what could possibly be unsafe about this; 
I realize that distilling temps can cause the distillation of heads and 
tails -- alcohols other than ethanol, which are toxic -- however, in a 
beer that has fermented already, I don't see how you are going to create 
any more heads or tails than already exist in the beer, although I will 
conceded that you might be concentrating one more than another.  Still, 
I have a hard time believing that there is enough in beer to be 
accidentally concentrated to a level that is unsafe.

Can you be more specific as to the danger that you perceive here?

Thanks.

Bill Velek



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:51:44 -0600
From: val.dan.morey at juno.com
Subject: Re: Temperature Correction (Hop Utilization)

Yesterday I posted an approximation for temperature correction.  Fred,
has asked if it is widely accepted in industry or hobby.  I'd venture to
say no.  To answer how immersion cooling was different than counter flow
cooling, one must account for temperature.  I could not find a
temperature correlation in my brief search; however I came across Garetz
correction for elevation:

TF = ((elevation/550) * 0.02) + 1, where elevation is measured in feet

I believe the intent of the correction factor is to account for the
variation in boiling temperature due to elevation.  Boiling point various
due to pressure, not elevation.  If my memory is correct, it was NACA
(now NASA) which performed several experiments and developed the standard
atmosphere table.  This table describes the idealized/average state of
the atmosphere with relationship to elevation.  One of the
characteristics is pressure.  Of course pressure will vary with weather
conditions.  Using the pressure from the standard atmosphere table, we
can get the boiling point of water from the steam table.  This becomes
our idealized correction for boiling point verses altitude.  For typical
elevations, the relationship is basically linear:

Tboil = 212 - 0.00185*h, h is elevation in feet and Tboil in degrees F 

In the Garetz method, TF appears in the denominator of the bitterness
calculation and utilization in the numerator.  I prefer to keep my
correction factors as a multiplier to the utilization, so I took the
reciprocal of TF (or 1/TF) and plotted it against the approximated
temperature.  Using curve fitting, the equation:

Ct = 0.022*e^(0.018*T), where T is in degrees F was found to be a good
fit.

When applying this equation, most of the points are outside of the data
set (unless you are in a laboratory you're not going to boil water at 80
F).  So, the correction are extrapolated from the trend at higher
temperatures.  So caution is warranted.  However, the curve does decay
quickly.  A change of less than 40F , which happens quickly is predicted
to cut utilization in half.  Since it decays quickly, I'd be comfortable
that the errors are not significant for our calculation.

It maybe controversial, but I believe the models do predict that dry
hopping adds bitterness.  My taste buds seem to agree.

I just wanted to explain this a bit more before I got totally flamed. 

Cheers,
Dan Morey
Club BABBLE  http://hbd.org/babble/


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:06:04 -0500
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Bittering, flavor and aroma


I switched from an immersion chiller to a pumped convoluted counterflow
chiller last year.  I really didn't notice any increase in bitterness of my
beers, although I may have noticed and corrected for it over a series of
brews (I have more trouble duplicating bitterness from batch to batch than
anything else).  I would caution against over-correcting, though, and I
would adjust the bittering hops, not the contact time or temperature of the
aroma hops.  For a long time I tried to get more delicate aroma and flavor
by limiting the contact time or temperature of aroma hops.  The more I
dialed the contact time or temperature down, the more grapefruity the beer
got (when using American hops).  Finally, a professional brewer told me to
steep my aroma hops for forty minutes with the pot covered to get the full
benefit of aroma and flavor.  Ignoring all I've read about DMS production, I
tried it and, lo and behold, no more grapefruit beer.  Counter to intuition,
I got more delicate flavors and aromas by steeping longer and at higher
temperatures.  And counter to much of what I've read about DMS, I did not
get any DMS production from letting the boil kettle sit covered for 40
minutes without any cooling.  A vigorous boil with no cover on the kettle
goes a long way toward DMS reduction.

Experience tells me that you should not add aroma hops at reduced
temperatures or for short times.  Something that should be made abundantly
clear to beginners is that "aroma" and "flavor" hop additions are misnomers
 - each will affect the other, and even dry hops can add to the apparent
bitterness just due to the pungent nature of hop aromas and flavors.  I
would also agree with Stuart Grant and others that you shouldn't get a lot
of additional bitterness from steeping hops because they aren't being
thrashed around in the wort.  But if you do find you're getting more
bitterness than you want, dial the bittering hops back.

John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:07:50 -0500
From: "info" <info at antiochsudsuckers.com>
Subject: 2004 Mid-South Homebrew Series Winners


The 2004 Mid-South Homebrew Series has come to a close, 
congrats to all for making it a great year. All partici-
pating competitions received a healthy number of entries,
making the Mid-South competitions among some of the
largest in the Eastern US.

The winners are...

2004 Mid-South Homebrew Club of the Year
- ----Rocket City Brewers----

2004 Mid-South Homebrewer of the Year
- ----John Tipton - Madison, AL----

Results are posted here:
http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/midsouth/mshboy2004.htm

Congratulations to everyone,
the Antioch Sud Suckers




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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:03:05 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: More on late hop additions

Dan Morey's post agrees with my (completely unsupported) opinion on the
matter, that the difference in utilization of late hop additions with
respect to cooling method are negligible.  I'm wondering, though, if the
cold break remaining in the kettle with immersion chilling and the cold
break ending in the fermenter with CFC chilling aren't at least partly
responsible for the *perceived* differences in IBUs of the finished beer.

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:53:05 -0500
From: "Sean Harper" <seanjharper at hotmail.com>
Subject: What's up with this!?

Greetings fellow Brewer's from Brewer Maine,

     I just racked into a secondary a mouth-watering spiced Imperial Stout 
slated for consumption this Christmas. My query is thus: usually when I rack 
into the secondary there is an amount of action in the beer (in the process 
of moving the beer the yeast starts up again resulting in some extra 
fermentation in the secondary). However this time there is no action at 
all.. I even put in some yeast nutrients as I was racking to push for a 
higher drop in the final gravity (this is a BIG beer). I have no action 
whatsoever, nothing...Not even a buble! Is this an issue? Did I not rinse 
the fermenter enough (meaning, is there an amount of sanitizer contaminating 
my precious brew)? What does this mean... Any response would be greatly 
appreciated, feel free to e-mail me directly.

thanks again,
Sean Harper
Brewer, Me.




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