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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: The Great Decoction Experiment ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  wild cider yeast for beer? ("Todd Snyder")
  Jeff's spontaneous cider yeast for beer (ALAN K MEEKER)
  Carbonating kegs off the CO2? ("Chris Tweney")
  Re: External thermostats ("Todd Swearingen")
  Siphoning methods (Jim Eberhardt)
  0.5 micron airstone help! ("Rowan Williams")
  Collapsed inner tubing in CFC (Steven Parfitt)


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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:29:22 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Decoction Experiment

On Thursday,  9 December 2004 at 11:52:26 -0800, Denny Conn wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> I'm in the process of organizing an experiment to try to determine the
> flavor benefits of a decoction mash schedule vs. an infusion mash.  I
> realize this has been attempted before, but I'd like to narrow the
> parameters to just determine if decoction mashes have a benefit to the
> taste of the beer and if people are able to pick out a decocted beer.  We
> won't be getting into other methods to achieve the supposed benefits of
> decoction or anything like that.  It seems like the only way to collect
> useful data is to narrow the scope of the quest.  If any of you are
> interested in finding out more and possibly participating, please check out
> the webpage at www.hbd.org/cascade/decoction.  Then contact me through the
> email link on the page.  I hope to publish the results in Zymurgy sometime
> in the late spring/early summer.

FWIW, Ray Mills called for a similar experiment on the Australian
Craftbrewers list  recently.  I believe he's on hbd as well, so you'll
probably hear from him.

A couple of weeks ago I tried something pretty close to what you're
talking about: two brews with the same malts (50% Pilsener, 50%
M&uml;nchner), hops (Tettnang) and yeast (Wyeast 1318 London Ale III).

One was step infused and the other decocted.  This was my first
decoction on such a scale, and I didn't get the temperatures as exact
as I would have liked.  The intention was, however, to match the step
infusion.  You can see the gory details at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/brewing/brew-41.html (infused) and
http://www.lemis.com/grog/brewing/brew-42.html (decocted).

The results?  I bottled the brews last weekend.  I had somehow
expected the beers to be more different, but what I found was:

* The infused wort fermented much faster initially than the decocted
  wort.  It's difficult to believe that this happened by chance.

* The decocted wort attenuated much more than the infused wort (74%
  vs.  65%).  The yeast is rated at 71 to 75% apparent attenuation; I
  typically get relatively low attenuations, which I attribute to my
  attempts to get a lot of dextrins in the wort.

* Both the wort and the beer differed in pH.  The infused beer was pH
  5.4 before fermentation, pH 4.3 afterwards.  The beer was pH 5.5
  before fermentation, pH 4.4 afterwards.

The beers tasted different at bottling, of course, but nothing that
couldn't be summarized by these details.  I was expecting more body in
the decocted beer, but if anything it's the other way round.  I
couldn't recognize any difference in colour.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:04:25 -0500
From: "Todd Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: wild cider yeast for beer?

Hi Jeff, 
You wrote:
- --------------------------
SO.... , here is what I'm thinking.  I wonder what kind of beer this 
mix of critters would produce.  I'm thinking I could take a few 
ounces of the cider and inoculate a starter, and then pitch this into 
wort.

But I'm too chicken to try this with an all grain batch.  Maybe with 
just a gallon and pitch culture yeast in the rest.  Or maybe make an 
extract beer for the first time in a long time.

I don't want to end up with lambic-like sourness, but cider doesn't 
turn sour (unless it's exposed to air and it turns to vinegar).

Has anyone every tried this?  Any thoughts?

Jeff
- ----------------------------

I've done this, used the sludge from a batch of spontaneously fermented
cider to ferment an extract framboise in an attempt at a sour beer.  The
recipe (from memory unfortunately)was a can of Brewferm Framboise (which
supposedly has 2kg of raspberrys in it) and 2-3 lb of muntons extra light
DME. No other hops other than what was in the can.  It was a simple recipe
because I was interested in what the cider culture would produce. 

I was hoping the beer would have some of the characteristics that the cider
had.  The spontaneously fermented cider leaves a lot of sweetness behind but
also a ton of sourness I assume from lactic fermentation, and lots of apple
aroma.  Honestly I have no idea why people make cider with champagne yeast
unless they enjoy drinking rocket fuel. It's tough to leave any sweetness
behind when using champagne yeast and it makes really boring, non-complex,
cider as you said. 

The beer however was dissappointing,  very little sourness, medium/high
bandaid phenols, no diacetyl or hop aroma/flavor (both ok for syle), hardly
any raspberry character, some low levels of barnyard flavor and aroma.   It
finished at a normal to dry gravity.  

I can't tell you how it is after 2-3 years though because I'm pretty sure I
dumped the bottles, it didn't seem to improve with about 1 year of age. 

Hope this helps, 

Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY





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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:34:45 -0500
From: ALAN K MEEKER <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Jeff's spontaneous cider yeast for beer

Jeff, if you are going to try using the yeast from your spontaneously 
fermented cider to brew beer then I would certainly take your own good
advice and only try this on a small fraction of your wort. While 
the results may be interesting (perhaps even tasty) why risk the 
whole batch?! 

I've also wondered what beers must've tasted like before the advent
of single strain culturing. Probably pretty godawful for the most 
part which made it all the more reason to celebrate a truly outstanding
batch.

Another issue would be reproducibility. If you do get results that you
like it may be difficult to replicate since you will be dealing with 
a mixed strain and the proportions of the various subpopulations won't
be stable initially and some may be lost altogether. Similar situation
as with a lambic.
 

Good luck, please let us know how this turns out...

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore




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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:42:43 -0800
From: "Chris Tweney" <ctweney at sonic.net>
Subject: Carbonating kegs off the CO2?

Here's a CO2 physics problem for those of you in HBD-land...

I just got my first kegging setup. I have 3 kegs but only 1 CO2 regulator. A
manifold is not in the picture (for now). I'll probably drink 1 keg at a
time, so the other 2 will have time to sit and carbonate without shaking
them. What I would like to do is hit kegs #2 and #3 with a certain amount of
pressure, take them off the gas, and let them sit (refrigerated) until keg
#1 is empty.

I wonder if there's a way to calculate the volumes CO2 I will get from
zapping the keg with a certain amount of pressure and then disconnecting.
Say I want 2.4 volumes at 45F. Serving pressure would thus be around
14-15psi. I imagine that if I put in 15psi initially, then disconnect the
gas, the CO2 will dissolve into the beer and drop the pressure. So I will
need extra pressure. But is there a formula to calculate how much extra
pressure I need to arrive at the 2.4 volumes with no additional application
of gas?

Any help is appreciated.

 -chris



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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:42:34 -0600
From: "Todd Swearingen" <tswearingen at paragoninc.net>
Subject: Re: External thermostats

Chris asked about using an external thermostat with a side by side
refrigerator/freezer and running them independently. I have not used a side
by side specifically, but it should be possible if it uses two separate
internal thermostats. The standard fridge I use only has one thermostat and
diverts air from the freezer into the fridge space. I replaced the original
thermostat with a Johnson Controls thermostat since it is completely
mechanical and can be placed entirely inside the fridge space (instead of
mounting external and running the probe inside and splitting a power cord).
This is a much cleaner installation. Basically you remove the original
thermostat, then just run the wires to the new controller mounted inside.
This keeps power to the fridge continuously (so the light/fans/etc still
work) and cycles the compressor just like the original thermostat, only with
a broader control range. If your side by side has two thermostats, you could
do the same for each.

Todd
Rocket City Brewers
Huntsville, AL



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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:17:52 -0600
From: Jim Eberhardt <jim at jacysplace.com>
Subject: Siphoning methods

	
All the recent talk of pumps has made me think of siphoning (mainly 
because, without a pump, I still siphon) and I'm wondering if anyone 
has any good ways to start a siphon. I've tried several of the 
piston-style gizmos with limited success; they work sometimes, but work 
poorly with carbonated liquids, when the occasional hop leaf gets 
sucked in, and are difficult to start with a low liquid level. In a 
pinch I've also tried the 
start-the-siphon-by-mouth-after-rinsing-with-sanitizer method but this 
still seems like a good way towards wort infection. Are there any 
recommendations for effectively starting a siphon?

Thanks,
Jim

Wichita, KS



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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:53:59 -0800
From: "Rowan Williams" <rowan at canberrabrewers.org>
Subject: 0.5 micron airstone help!

I recently purchased a 0.5 micron SS airstone to use when I want
to aerate my yeast starters and wort.  Problem is, I can't get any
air through it!  I purchased a 210L per hour Penn Plax air pump
(model 2K4UK)which is a dual outlet unit, after the single outlet
unit failed to push more than the odd bubble through the stone.
I put a 3 way airflow control valve in line to combine the two
airstreams into one and I got nothing out of the stone! 
Looks like an aquarium air pump is not good enough for a half micron
airstone?  Any help or suggestions would be appreciated - the airstone
is brand new and doesn't appear to be blocked and the tubing is
surgical grade from a nearby hospital.
I'd rather not have to return the airstone but at this rate, all its
doing is blocking the airflow to the starter/wort!

Cheers,
Rowan
Canberra Brewers Club
Australia





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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:02:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC

I've beenusing a CFC made from an outer copper tubing
of 7/8" and a 3/8" inner copper tubing. The length is
about 25', and it was made about seven years ago.

Over the past couple of years I have noitced that it
has not been flowing well. It has continued to degrade
until  in a brewing session a couple of months ago I
ended up using only my immersion chiller to cool the
wort.

So I was debating buying a commercial one, or at lest
asking Santa for one until a frined of mine tole me he
had 25' of 3/8" refrigertion line I could have for $4.
 

I cut one end off the ole chiller, soldered the new
tubing to the old tubing, and cut the other end loose.

It took three hours of beating, banging and in general
the best physical work out I have had in years to get
the new tubing in place.

The old tubing had collapsed in no less than six
places. Some as short as 1", and th worst a full 3'
section was squashed flat.

What the hell happened?



=====
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian 

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968


		


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