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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Latest Program ("Graham L Sanders")
  Re: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC ("C.D. Pritchard")
  CO2 Manifolds (Doug Moyer)
  Bazooka screen collapsing (Doug Moyer)
  Natural beer fermentations, whether or not they come from the weather. ("Dave Burley")
  Corny ked labeling/tags ("Dan Hansen")
  Re:wild beer yeast; more on spontaneous fermentation (Raj B Apte)
  RE: Kettle fittings (Steve Funk)
  Broken glass and PET carboys (Seth Boquet)
  Re: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC (Danny WIlliams)


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:32:58 +1000
From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com>
Subject: Latest Program

G'Day All

Well one can say we are rather embrassed here in North Queensland. There we 
were taking our yearly bets on when the first tourist would be taken this 
year, and where they came from. Betting was fierce, and abandoning another 
yank on the reef was still a hot favourite, only being out bid by one being 
taken in the Daintree River. Head hunting cod was a right outsider.

To everyone shock, a local was the winner this year. Now this is not good 
for our local image, fancy someone next door taking the honours. Anyway, we 
have lost a local not to a saltie, but to a bronze whaler. Yep in what will 
written into the record books as a rank outsider, a shark took out the title 
this year, taking home a nice bite size piece to the family. Ah well, theres 
always next year. And yes to win the prize it has to be fatal.

Well if you haven't worked it out yet, the latest installment in the best 
darn beer radio program to ever hit the airways is up and running.

I have held off annoucing this to see if the podcasters have received it, 
and the overall response is YES - Bloddy oath. Now this radio program has 
the one and only Ray Mills. yes the best craftbrewer Australia has ever
produced is my special guest. (ok this is a beat up, but he did win Best 
Brewer in 2004 at the Nationals). You will enjoy the interview.

And just to remind those who came in late about where do you get this great
program.

For podcasters to take advantage of this service, you first need a computer 
program (commonly called an Ipod, or  radio download) that allows you to 
automatically download the radio broadcasts. One source for
this is http://ipodder.sourceforge.net/index.php

Once you have that, you plug this link into the program if you want the 
Craftbrewers Radio Program http://rss.oz.craftbrewer.org.  But  if you want 
to get the old fashion way, its still there. Go to 
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/index.shtml#Sound

Thanks to the e-mails from people who made suggestions as to how to 
interview you lot with some of the nifty software that is about. I am 
planning to do so next year, now I have to work out - WHO!!!!!!!!!!!!

So tell me, who over there, would you like for me, over here, to put on the 
spot in a wirde interview.

Shout
Graham Sanders

oh
It continues to be bliss in the Sanders household. This year is a bumper 
crop accross the board. Mangos are finishing, and the Lychie tree has sooooo 
many it totally red in colour with all the fruit. SWMBO mind is totally 
engrossed in being a fruit bat. Reproduction is a past memory. I haven't 
been asked for quite a while to "do the duty".

Its almost an insult in a way. Note the word almost. I think I might 
surprise her with a special christmas gift. That is til I walk in the 
bedroom and she surprises me with how she really looks without her face on. 
Suddenly that glass of beer looks awfully inviting.











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Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:37:14
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Re: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC

Steven posted about decreasing flow thru his his CF chiller made from 7/8"
and 3/8" copper tubing and found the inner tubing collapsed in 6 places
(with one collapsed section 3' long) when he removed it.

Since the tubing was collapsed vs. crimped, it must have been caused by a
higher outer pressure and/or a lower internal pressure.  Some *possible*
causes (i.e. SWAGs!):  

1) Use of a persistatic pump downstream of the CFC while the up-stream side
was 
   valved or otherwise shut.  
2) High cooling water pressure with a downstream valve closed. 
3) The CFC was filled with boiling water and both ends somehow capped.  
   There would be a greater chance of collapsing if the inner tube was not 
   completely filled with water since any trapped water vapor or aire will 
   shrink more when cooled.  

Collasping would be more likely if 3/8" copper water tubing was used
instead of 3/8" refridgeration tubing since the former has a much thinner
wall thickness.

Steven also noted it took alot of work to get the inner tubing inserted in
the outer tubing.  To make assembly of CF chiller easier, straigthen both
lengths of tubing first.  I do this by fastening one end in a vise and
uncoiling while roughly straightening then pull on the free end with vise
grip pliers.  Lubricate with lots of liquid dishwashing soap and push the
inner tube thru the outer one.  Soap is nice as a lubricant because it
rinses out easier than oil and is a plus if you want to use spent cooling
water from the CFC to water the garden. If the the fit is tight or the
tubing is not straighten well, pulling works better- fish a pull rope thru
the outer tube, fasten to one end of the inner tube and pull it thru. 

c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: CO2 Manifolds

Jeff mentions Rapids. I'd feel remiss if I didn't, in
turn, mention Micro-Matic. Their prices are better
than Rapids, and their phone service is worlds better
than Rapids.
 
http://www.micromatic.com/
 
No affiliation, blah, blah, blah...
 
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
 
Troutville, VA
 
Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:06:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bazooka screen collapsing

For my new mash tun (a converted keg), I installed two
12" Bazooka screens. Apparently, my pump is too
strong, and the screens have collapsed over about half
their length. I'm thinking about putting a false
bottom over the screens (belt and suspenders). Any
comments?

Brew on!
Doug Moyer

Troutville, VA

Star City Brewers Guild:
http://www.starcitybrewers.org




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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:46:43 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Natural beer fermentations, whether or not they come from the weather.

Brewsters:

Chad Stevens asks if "whether" ( vs weather) was correct usage in his last 
submission. Yep and thanks! {8^)

Chad has been trying to do a natural start on a beer by leaving wort sit 
around to gather infection by yeast and lactobacillli from the air without a 
lot of positive success. I suspect the problem is he is using sanitized ( or 
even sterile) boiled wort as his growth medium and expecting spontaneous 
generation   {8^) (or at least air infection)  to take hold..

I have read many times about the infection  of wort in the coolships from the 
air in those breezy attics in Belgium and about the infection of sourdough 
with lactobacteria from the air in San Francisco. This supposedly explains why 
sourdough bread  can only be made in  San Francisco and the beers in Belgium, 
as no where else has has these specific bacteria . Hmmm, sounds a little like 
marketing doesn't it? ( Kind of reminds you of French Terroir and for the same 
reasons.).

I don't believe air to be the major source of infection in either case.

I submit that the major source of such organisms is the unsanitary ( but 
"clean") vessels and the liquid or solids in them and the people using them. 
Remember the production of these products preceded Pasteur by a long time.

In the case of sourdough, the Lactobacillus sanfrancisensis ( sourdough 
lactobacter) has only been found in nature on human skin and in the mouth, not 
in the air or walls or anywhere else.

I visualize all those bakers one hundred ( or maybe 5000 in Egypt and 
Babylonia)  or so years ago kneading that dough and sweating into it, then 
recycling a piece of this dough for the next run. Not what you left your heart 
in San Francisco for is it?  But I still love the bread.

The unbleached bread flour was also a source for the Torulopsis holmii, a 
natural and fragrant yeast which can survive and grow (unlike S. cerevisiae) 
under highly acid conditions ( generated by the lactobacter) and  low pH and 
needs the glucose by-product of the lactobacter consumption of maltose  to 
survive, since it, unlike S.cerevisiae, cannot metabolize maltose. It's called 
symbiosis and why the Sourdough  taste is so constant from batch to batch.

If you take a mixture of flour and water it will spontaniously begin to 
ferment in a few days. The weekly production of the "chef" , the source of 
"levain" ( leavening)   in French bakeries, before beer yeast began to be 
used, depended on this principle and supports the idea that the flour, at 
least, is the source of leavening, given a few days development time. This is 
not unlike grapes and the vessels being a source of fermentation for wine.

As far as producing a sour for beer, I always use a cool boiled wort which I 
infect with ground malt.  This quickly produces a lactobacillus sour ( 
sometimes it smells like sauerkraut - a naturally occurrring lactobacillus 
from vegetable sources) and undoubtedly introduces yeast from the grain 
surface.  This should be a useful source to do your entire fermentation if it 
doesn't go so acid that the yeast can't ferment it.

Having  a high malt content wort, with the concomitant buffers it provides, 
will certainly help control the pH of the fermentation. SO go for a high 
alcohol beer ( or high OG starter)  at first to encourage the proper growths. 
This is not inconsistent with original Belgian and Trappist beers' OGs. 
Several recycles may be needed to get a stable population.

Those colonies of mold floating and growing on the surface, if you get them, 
were probably not from the air ( but could be)  but sourced from the malt 
also. It's  just they  can't gow in the absence of oxygen, which the interior 
of the liquid is free of due to the microbiological activity of the yeasts and 
bacteria. The mold colonies therefore grow on the surface. I suspect this is 
the source of those air infection myths.

So, if you want to continue your experiments ( sounds like fun) in producing a 
"natural" beer, produce a starter from cool wort, and some ground grain, 
either the malt or the original barley, and see what you get. The malt, having 
been washed, soaked, suffocated and dried and even toasted during it's 
production will not likely give you as wide a variety of microrganisms as will 
the unmodified ( and natural)  barley grain.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:57:45 -0800
From: "Dan Hansen" <dan at hansen.org>
Subject: Corny ked labeling/tags

Now that I have a good collection of kegs, I'm having a hell of time keeping
track of what's in them, which ones are clean, which ones need to be
cleaned, etc.  Has anyone come up with a system that easily label their
kegs?  My first thought is find some sort of tag that can be attached to the
handle.  I'd like to have something I can put label and date on.  Anybody
know where I get some sort of reusable tags?  I'll take any recommendations



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:43:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Raj B Apte <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:wild beer yeast; more on spontaneous fermentation

Chad comments on his experience with spontaneous
fermentations in several locations. I want to make sure
everyone understands the context (while agreeing with what
Chad wrote).

There is no historical reason to think that spontaneous
fermentation of the type practised by Chad is possble in
any location. No one who has seen Cantillon can tell me
that there is any need for critters to come in from the
window. The steam condenses on the ceiling above the
coolship and drips--yes, drips!--into the wort. Then the
wort is put into a used barrel. As all winemakers no, its
nearly impossible to remove Brettanomyces from cooperage.
At most, Kloeckera might blow in through the window, but I
doubt anything else does. Finally, milling dust from malt
is full of critters, and in a brewery that crushes a few
times a week the air will be full of malt-house bugs
travelling on the dust. That's the brewery air, not the
mysterious Flemish smog of downtown Brussels where
Cantillon is located. Kloeckera is common under your
fingernails, and that's where it might come from in
traditional lambic brewing. But once a brewery has been in
operation for a while, all the bugs will be there.
Sanitizing is a novelty.

I make spontaneously fermented wines, meads, and ciders.
What that means is that the fruit skins and
crushing/pressing equipment provide a small, multi-strain
inoculum. In tha case of mead I use the osmophilic yeasts
already there. I think it makes a more interesting product.
In vineyards that use spontaneous fermentation commercially
(its not uncommon in Europe), each years' pomace is used as
mulch in the field, thus propagating the yeast spores.
Wooden pressing equipment and press clothes insure that
there will always some consistent inoculum, even for very
clean fruit.

This same misunderstandings are common amoung sourdough
bread bakers regarding starting a levain (levito naturale).
In this case the bugs come from people and the flour, not
primarily the air.

Finally, to the main point. I have used the yeast from
spontaneously fermented cider with beer. It has Pediococcus
in it so expect a sour beer. Mine was a lambic and is
coming along well (its 4 months old and starting to sour).
While young it was pretty tasty. I've also used a
multi-strain starter in a barleywine, this one cultured
from malted and raw grains. The trick there is to culture
it a few generations to get rid of some of the funk and get
a good, reliable fermentation. 3-4 generations worked for
me, though in baking one uses more like 10 before using a
wild starter.

raj


		


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:45:30 -0800
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: RE: Kettle fittings

Ronald J. La Borde wrote:

"...why on earth would anyone want a
thermometer in the kettle? I'm sure someone will have a reason, but I
must say I've never needed one."

To that I say:  I use a converted Sanke keg as a boiler and I also 
preheat my hot water in it before transferring to my 10-gal Gott HLT . 
That is the reason that I placed a coupling on my keg wall for a 
thermometer.  It really helps to know when to kill the heat without 
having to take the lid off and dip a thermometer while getting a face 
full of condensation that fogs up everything glass including the 
thermometer dial.  I can also monitor the temperature of the heating 
wort and predict when I need to attend to it to prevent boilovers on 
larger batches.  Granted, it is not a necessary item, but it does have 
its benefits.
Steve
Stevenson, WA



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:31:33 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: Seth Boquet <sboquet at earthlink.net>
Subject: Broken glass and PET carboys

Well it finally happened, I dropped my 6.5 gallon glass carboy 
on the garage floor while it was full of sanitizing solution.  
To make it worse, my wort was boiling, I don't have another 
fermenter, and the homebrew store was closed.  I ended up 
drilling the lid on my bottling bucket and fitting it with the carboy 
stopper and airlock.  Hopefully the beer will come out unharmed.
 
My real question is if anyone has tried the PET carboys like the 
"better bottle" brand ones?  They seem like they would be a 
good compromise between the glass ones and the plastic buckets.
I'm interested in hearing suggestions for any non-breakable 
inexpensive fermenters.
 
Thanks!
Seth



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:03:48 -0500
From: Danny WIlliams <dbwill at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC

> The old tubing had collapsed in no less than six
> places. Some as short as 1", and th worst a full 3'
> section was squashed flat.

> What the hell happened?

Do you perhaps run hot water through the CFC for rinsing at the end of
a brew day and then cap the ends for storage? If so, perhaps the
contracting of the cooling hot air trapped inside the tube is strong
enough to collapse the tube a little bit each time. More cycles = more
collapse.


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