HOMEBREW Digest #4694 Mon 10 January 2005

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  Re: sulfur (sulfite/sulfide) smells ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  RE: Batch sparging and specialty grains ("Pat and Debbie Reddy")
  Re: Batch sparging and specialty grains (Denny Conn)
  sulfury lager, whole leaf hops, mill settings ("Dave Burley")
  Wheat Milling ("Ed Measom")
  Fw: Clinitest ("Dave Burley")
  Sulfur in Czech pils ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  RE: Wheat Milling ("Doug Hurst")
  2005 MASH-OUT REGISTRATION NOW OPEN! ("aboyce@mn.rr.com")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:24:46 +1030 From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> Subject: Re: sulfur (sulfite/sulfide) smells On Saturday, 8 January 2005 at 14:27:43 +0000, A.J deLange wrote: > Peter A. Ensminger wrote: > >> In HBD 4962, AJ writes about sulfide (S^-2) versus sulfite (SO4^-2) >> aroma in lagers. Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) is often described as a >> "rotten egg" aroma. But what does sulfite smell like? Can you describe >> this or give examples? >> >> I really love "Victory Prima Pils" and its aroma has a distinctive >> character that I would describe as "sulfur". A young Pilsner Urquell >> also has this character. I would not describe either of these as >> having a "rotten egg" aroma. Would you say that this aroma is sulfide >> or sulfite? BTW, I have gotten a sulfur aroma from some of my own >> *very young* beers fermented with Nottingham (ale) yeast. > > Sulfite is usually described as "burning matches" i.e. it's the odor > of sulfur dioxide. Many homebrewers will be familiar with it as the > smell that evolves when Campden tablets are dissolved in water. And > yes, that's the smell you want with continental pilsners. Are you talking about the European continent? I haven't noticed significant levels of sulphur dioxide amongst the beers I've had there. I also don't think anybody would want that kind of smell with any beer. > They aren't continental pilsners without that hint. Is it possible that this is a problem of beers exported to the USA? Greg - -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:08:33 -0600 From: "Pat and Debbie Reddy" <reddydp at Charter.net> Subject: RE: Batch sparging and specialty grains Hi Parker, I've been doing nothing but batch sparging on my HERMS system for about 2 years now. My efficiency has suffered a mere 3% loss compared to a normal sparge and I account for this using the "Efficiency Lock" feature in Promash (as it has no specific adjustment for batch sparging). Meaning that, yes, the entire grain bill gets a minor bump. The recipes I've been making for years, some of which are relatively high in specialty malts, seem right on the money using this approach. To answer your first question, I typically add specialty malts directly to the mash with the exception of very dark malts like roasted barley and black patent - these I add to my first sparge for very dark beers (porters and stouts) but simply steep in cold water and add to the kettle at the end of the boil for other beers. BTW...my batch sparge technique consists of 2 steps. An initial volume of sparge water added to the mash to bring the drainable volume up to 1/2 of my preboil volume. Since my system only holds my HLT temp to within about a 10 degree window, I generally try to make this addition raise the entire mash volume only a few degrees. I circulate for 10 minutes then drain the entire volume. The next addition is equal to 1/2 of my preboil volume and is typically about 168-170 degrees. Again, 10 minutes then I drain. I suppose if I were doing 5 gallon batches I might shoot for one addition, but I am typically doing 17 gallon batches and my mash tun can't hold the entire sparge volume. Hope this helped. Any questions, feel free to email me directly or call me at 314-739-5937. Pat Reddy River Bound Brewing Bridgeton, MO - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.827 / Virus Database: 564 - Release Date: 1/3/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:31:55 -0800 From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com> Subject: Re: Batch sparging and specialty grains Parker, while you certainly could add your specialty grains only before the sparge, I don't see why you'd want to or what you would gain by doing that. I mash all my grist at once, batch sparging. If I need to increase grain amounts, I do it across the board...specialty grains as well as base malts. I'm curious about your reduced efficiency when batch sparging, though...could you tell me what your efficiencies are, both for fly and batch sparging? I find my batch sparge efficiency is right in line with what most people get from fly sparging. ----------->Denny Conn At 10:58 PM 1/9/05 -0500, Parker wrote: >In a normal on-the-fly sparge, I would mash, drain and throw the specialty >grain >in the tun when I initiate the sparge. If I am batch sparging, should I mash >as usual, drain, then throw the specialty grain into the tun, add the batch >sparge water, let it sit, and drain again? Will this pull enough of the >flavor >out of the specialty grains? Also, when batch sparging, I bump up my base >malt >to account for reduced efficiency, which brings me into my target OG, but do I >need to bump up the specialty grain, or would that just throw off the balance, >seeing as how specialty grain doesn't contribute to the fermentables, and a 5 >gallon batch, whether batch sparged or fly-sparged, would call for the same >amount of specialty grain to achieve the right flavor profile? Make sense? > >Parker Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:01:01 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: sulfury lager, whole leaf hops, mill settings Brewsters: Mike Mullins has a "sulfur" odor in his lager. Mike, first thing I would do is give the lager a diacetyl rest at around 65F for a couple of weeks. I know this is not a "sulfur" odor, but, this rest will also help take care of that sulfury aroma from the true lager yeast in most cases. In fact that aroma is a characteristic of some really good European lagers Otherwise just wait and it will get better. - --------------- Ant Hayes has had trouble with whole leaf hops. Interestingly, I have had exactly the same problems with the finely divided hops and the leaf hops are superior to not clogging in my experience. Ant, I put a "Choreboy" copper or SS mesh household scrubber over the end of my inlet to my counterflow chiller and I get excellent filtration and no plugging with whole leaf hops, but not the finely divided hops which plug things up and don't filter out. Don't know what the equuivalent name would be in South Africa. Try Whirlpooling the boiler to move the hops to the middle and remove wort from the edge. - ------------ Santa brought Dave Clark a new mill and he asks for advice on the setting. Dave, the way I use it is to close the gap ( nip) all the way, turn on the mill ( or crank it) and slowly open the nip until it feeds quickly and cracks the grain into about 6 pieces but does not grind the husk. Then repeat this procedure on the cracked grain, you will have a finer nip this time and you will have an excellent grind and no stuck lauter as the husks will remain whole . The fine grind will give you excellent efficiency. Surprisingly, this takes less time than trying to grind the grain once through a fine nip. If you want to measure the nip use a sparkplug gapper. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:02:12 -0500 From: "Ed Measom" <ed_measom at earthlink.net> Subject: Wheat Milling In reference to Dan Listermann's posing on Wheat Milling, I have a few observations to add. I brew a lot of hefeweizen beer and use the malted German wheat and have found that the mill jams up at the low settings on the fist pass. So, I pick a medium setting and mill the wheat then go to a lower setting like I do for barley malt. On Saturday I mad a wit with 50% of the wheat the German malted variety and 50% unmalted wheat (and 50% of the grist Belgian Pilsner malt [that makes 3 halves?]). I found the unmalted winter wheat even harder to mill than the German malted wheat. So, I had to run the winter wheat through first at a wide gap, then medium and then finally at a normal low gap setting to get it milled properly. My efficiencies were at the usual 75% conversion for my system and the mash only partially stuck. Good brewing, Ed Measom. Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:55:59 -0500 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: Milling Wheat I have to take exception to those advocating milling wheat with a wider gap than barley and even to mixing it in with barley. Wheat needs a narrower gap than barley because it has a gumminess to it that needs to be overcome to crack ( higher yield point in metallurgical speak) . Further there is no husk material to protect. Mary Ann Gruber told me that water access is what wheat is all about. I mill mine to the point where I worry about dust. Dan Listermann Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:07:46 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Fw: Clinitest Brewsters: I have had several inquiries into how to obtain Clinitest KITS. Here is a copy of a response which may be useful to some. William, You will have to go to your pharmacist and ask them to special order a Clinitest KIT. If you have access to a testtube and an eyedropper you can just buy the tablets, this incudes the color chart as does the kit. If your pharmacy won't do it for some reason, you can locate a source and pay a higher price at a wine hobby site. Check out the archives under my name for the subtleties in using Clinitest in brewing. Biggest thing is perhaps that Clinitest won't respond to non-reducing sugars like sucrose and does respond to many disccharides like maltose and lactose (ala Milk Stout) and some trisaccharides. You can change the sensitivity of the test by changing the number of drops of beer you add. Clinistix will not do the job as they are based on an enzyme and are specific to glucose. Dark beers will hide the color, anyway, or so I am told. Perhaps the use of both Clinitest and Clinistix could be useful to determine the sugar profile by subtracting the Clinistix result from the Clinitest result.. I've never done this combo. Check out this website: http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft/CCA/CCA5/MAIN/ 1ORGANIC/ORG18/TRAM18/B/MENU.HTM ( link them back together) An exampleof Clinitest in wine analysis : http://www.vinquiry.com/pdf/ClinitestReducingSugar2001.pdf A little background on reducing sugars: http://www.biosci.ohiou.edu/introbioslab/Bios170/170_2/benedict.htm http://www2.volstate.edu/CHEM/1030/Labs/Carbo9.htm http://opbs.okstate.edu/~Blair/Bioch2344/Chapter10/Chapter10.htm http://www.bionet.0catch.com/carbohydrates.html#RS BTW Benedict's solution and Fehling's solution reactions are basically the same with different reagents. I believe Clinitest is Fehling's solution reaction. The heat of reaction provides the necessary temperature to complete the reaction in the case of Clinitest. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:27:58 -0800 From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com> Subject: Sulfur in Czech pils Mike Mullins asked about an overpowering sulfur aroma/taste in a czech pils, and several have made good comments. I have experienced similar in a pilsner made with Wyeast 2278 Czech pils and heaps of not-so-fresh (as it turned out) Saaz pellet hops. I do not know which element if either was the problem, but as I have used 2278 before and since and had manageably high levels of "clean" sulfur that would dissipate in lagering, I am loathe to blame the yeast. I suspect it may have been sulfide as described, perhaps from a dry hop infection or poor sanitation on my part. I dumped the beer as it did not dissipate in the keg over several months. This was a few years back. I recently made a big Oktoberfest that rang in about 1.070 and used Wyeast 2035 American Lager as it was what was on hand and is supposed to add a nice complexity. It did very nicely and made a nice, complex, malty beer, but also with a strong (but clean) sulfur note that is clearly similar to sulfite if not a little cleaner. Part of this batch was kegged about three weeks ago, and a portion was bottled at the same time. The kegged portion (transfered in to a keg purged with co2 by pushing out sanitizer solution) was exposed to no oxygen and is still clearly sulfury - no surprise as it is a young beer that had been lagering with a little yeast in secondary for just over 1 1/2 months. My surprise was testing a bottled sample for carbonation and finding it both carbonated and already clean smelling and tasting. I suspect that the exposure to headspace air caused the sulfites to bind up the oxygen the beer was exposed to, both protecting the bottled beer from oxidation and quickly cleaning up the sulfur. Apologies for the long way of getting to my suggestion, which is that perhaps allowing the beer to decarbonate and then bottling it with a little sugar may help the beer shake its sulfur, and free up your kegs so you are not as rushed in making a decision on dumping it. Steve Dale-Johnson Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:39:33 -0600 From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Wheat Milling I find myself agreeing with Dan Listerman when he says that wheat should be milled more finely than barley. The point of milling grain is to make as much starch as possble available to the enzymes. The only reason to avoid a fine crush is to preserve the barley husk which is used as a filter aid in lautering. Pro-brewers use hammer mills to pulverize their malt when using mash filters because they don't need the husks for filtering. Since wheat has no husk anyways, I see no reason not to crush it finely. I would use rice hulls as additional filter aid if I were concerned about lauterability. Doug Hurst Chicago, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:23:17 -0500 From: "aboyce at mn.rr.com" <aboyce@mn.rr.com> Subject: 2005 MASH-OUT REGISTRATION NOW OPEN! 2005 UPPER MISSISSIPPI MASH-OUT REGISTRATION IS NOW OPEN! Registration for entries and for judge and steward volunteering is now open for the 2005 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out in Mpls, St. Paul MN - Jan 27-29, 2005. Deadline is Jan 21, 2005. http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout * ALL 28 BJCP CATEGORIES * PLUS NEW ENTRANT category * PLUS EIS-ANYTHING category * MEDALS AND PRIZES for all winners. * SEPARATE BEST-OF-SHOWS for BEERS and MEADS/CIDERS! * 6-COURSE BEER DINNER ONLY $25! * SPECIAL PERKS FOR JUDGES, STEWARDS AND VOLUNTEERS! SIGN UP NOW! This is a party you WON'T want to miss! THE 2005 UPPER MISSISSIPPI MASH-OUT http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout ** Please pass this along to your fellow club members and brewers! ** - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . Return to table of contents
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