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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Croatian Pressure brewing and other questions ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Chinook Substitute (Good Hop Reference Site?) ("Buschur, Geoff")
  RE: Fermentation Under Pressure (Mark Alfaro)
  Reply to: Fermentation under preasure by Andrej Capka (Steve)
  Where is everybody? And a wort oxygenation question... (Dan Stedman)


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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:24:13 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Croatian Pressure brewing and other questions

Brewsters:

Andrej from Croatia asks some questions about brewing and kegging and such.


>    I have been following this list for some time and decided to make my
>first post.

Welcome aboard!

>Till now I brewed few whole grain batches and few trials with extract I got
from health supply store >which I hopped myself..

Also don 't forget malt extract is often used by large bakeries, so you may be 
able to get bulk quantities of extract at a lower price for your experiments 
from bakery supply houses. But all-grain is best and cheapest.


>Few successful brews few
>bad ones :)

And so it goes for all daring enough to brew. Your brews will get better and 
better as you pay attention to the details..

>When primary fermentation finishes, why is it necessary to move beer from
>yeast sediment?


At the end of the fermentation the sludge at the bottom of the fermenter is a 
mixture of yeast, cold break (mostly insoluble malt proteins) , bitter hops 
resins and such.

Leaving the beer on this too long will generate an "off" tasting beer. I 
suspect this is at least one of the sources of "yeast bite" comments in the 
very early English  homebrewing literature. This deposit will continually 
cause cloudy beer and could be a source of food for anerobic bacteria like 
lactic bacteria, perhaps.

In brief, this deposit has the potential to ruin your beer and not in anyway 
improve it. So as soon as the primary fermentation is finished and the 
majority of the deposit has fallen ( but the beer is still cloudy) rack ( 
move) the beer to a secondary fermenter where it will slowly finish the 
fermentable sugars. The deposit after this secondary fermentation is basically 
pure yeast which you can recover after removing the beer to kegs or bottles, 
wash with sterile water ( see past discussion in the HBD archives) to remove 
any potential bacterial food source and store the yeast under this sterile 
water in your fridge until the next brew. A capped sterilized beer bottle is 
an excellent storage container.


>I used to move it, mix in priming sugar and bottle, beer would have
secondary fermentation

(Note what you describe is not what is called a "secondary" fermentation. You 
are describing the "priming" fermentation)

>in bottle and is naturally carbonated...

As I jet do not have equipment for forced carbonation and is a bit to big
investment for me at a moment, I wondered if it is possible to have primary
fermentation in beer keg with safety valve set to for instance 2bar so that
I end up with probably right carbonated beer which after fermentation can be
>bottled???

Well, you could do this, but it would be risky and likely a failure unless you 
test the beer with Clinitest Kit ( see the archives) to be sure you have the 
correct amount of sugar.

Remember the carbon dioxide is in a supersaturated state in unagitated beer 
( otherwise it would come shooting out of the bottle when you open it)  so the 
pressure above the beer is not a correct measure of the amount of carbon 
dioxide in the beer. Your pressure valve would not reflect the correct amount 
necessarily.

In the old, old days when I first started brewing this same idea was used, but 
with bottles. Attempts were made to bottle the beer "when it was right" by 
measuring with a hydrometer. Invariably the carbonation was wrong and 
sometimes dangerous.

The best way is to brew, let the fermentation finish, clear the majority of 
the deposits, rack into a bottle containing the proper amount of sugar syrup 
to get the correct carbonation. There will be a small amount of yeast in the 
bottom of each bottle, but pouring carefully will keep this in the bottle. I 
drank my homebrew this way for many years. The beer will have a finer bead ( 
foam bubble) than with artifically carbonated beer. I attribute this to the 
micro amounts of yeast acting as bubble sites.

>Also is there any source for counter pressure bottle filling equipment, and
is it possible to setup such system at home and that it is made by hand or I
>have to buy it??

I built my first CP bottle filler from parts I got from the hardware store 
long before they were commercially available.

A unique design is Dan Listerman's one handed design ( no affiliation) ,

http://www.listermann.com/Store/Details.asp?ID=933

but there are many others and you should be able to find such a design on the 
web easily.

Start with:

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~ibrew4u/counter1.htm

and

http://home.chattanooga.net/~cdp/cpfill/c_press.htm

You willl need a carbon dioxide tank and regulator in any event, so you almost 
have your kegging system. Try your local gas and welding supply people and ask 
lots of questions. You never know, someone may want  a taste of homebrew....

>Oh, and one more :) why is it necessary to cool down worth >quickly,

This is probably the most important question you have asked in terms of making 
good beer. If you allow hot wort to get in contact with oxygen you will spoil 
any chance you have to make good beer. NEVER pour hot wort through the air. 
Cool it to around 20C or cooler. Even at this temperature it is a good idea to 
handle it carefully regarding air contact.

Now once it is cool I am sure you have read here it is common practice to 
oxygenate ( esp for ale manufacture). The idea is the yeast need oxygen to 
develop sterols for their cell wall.

Frankly, I am skeptical  that this is the right place to oxygenate your yeast 
( despite what you read and hear)  as the amount of oxygen that will dissolve 
in this one time oxygenation is so small and there are all kinds of competing 
chemical components which can react with this oxygen and spoil your beer ( esp 
lager) .

A better place to build strong yeast is in a stirred starter ( see HBD 
archives)  with a cotton wool or foam plug ( to let air in but keep bacteria 
and wild yeast out)  and then when the starter is fermented out throw away 
this "beer" by decantation, rinse the yeast with sterile water if you want to 
and pitch the pure yeast. This will give a lot of oxygen exposure to the 
growing yeast so they will have good cell walls, yet avoid spoiling your beer.

>I see
many discussion is made on worth chillers so I wondered??

This just makes this whole chilling controllable without mixing in air. What 
you do not want to do is allow hot wort to stand around overnight to cool off 
and absorb oxygen. Chill and pitch the yeast quickly. This will avoid 
oxidation as the yeast will soak up any oxygen.

>Ah, and worth aeration, can pump for fish tanks be used to pump air in
worth? And how >necessary it really is??

See my above comments. A fish pump is fine, but I would limit it to the 
starter, so you can throw away the oxygenated "beer". The real danger here is 
contamination of the beer with unfiltered air and maybe oils and why I prefer 
a magnetically stirred starter exposed to the air but not the microbiological 
contaminants. If you don't have  a stirrer pour the yeast/starter mixture 
through the air periodically with lots of agitation. The yeast will quickly 
consume the oxygen.

> I used live yeast I got
from local brewery.. not sure what kind of yeast it is but they told me it
is technological secret.. yeast is used to ferment their worth and is
capable to ferment up to >18% alcohol..

Probably a lager yeast (aren't you lucky!) Don't get caught in the common trap 
of  making high alcohol head busters.

Good Luck and

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:38:50 -0500
From: "Buschur, Geoff" <Geoff.Buschur at delta.com>
Subject: Re: Chinook Substitute (Good Hop Reference Site?)

I have gathered hops data from several sites and put it on a
spreadsheet.  
It started out as just a fun way to learn by gathering information.  
After working for several days scouring the web and my memory banks 
for information I felt like this was too much work to save this tool for

myself.  The files are large so I uploaded them to my personal 
webspace so anyone who is interested can save them to their 
computer.  I am not claiming that this is all of the information out
there, 
but it is a good start.  I highly suggest you save the files to your 
computer and make changes to suit your needs.

I built the originals on an excel file.  Then I averaged out the range
of 
the oils and acids so one could easily graph and model hop types .  
On the third page I organized the data by suggested beer types.

I know there are some people out there who despise Microsoft 
products and others who run different OS so I have tried to save 
this data in several formats so everyone can find a use for it.  
I think the xls is the most user friendly format that I am posting.

Please save these files and don't count on them being available 
for ever.  If I made mistakes or there is something you don't like 
you have two choices, don't use the files, or change it on your copy.

Excel file:
http://home.mindspring.com/~webtunnel/HOPS.xls

HTML:
http://home.mindspring.com/~webtunnel/HOPS.htm

Mac - csv:
http://home.mindspring.com/~webtunnel/HOPS_ranges.csv
http://home.mindspring.com/~webtunnel/HOPS_averages.csv
http://home.mindspring.com/~webtunnel/HOPS_beerstyle.csv

Geoff Buschur brewin in Atlanta




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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:14:36 -0800
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Fermentation Under Pressure

Andrej asks about cask carbonating:

"I wondered if it is possible to have primary
fermentation in beer keg with safety valve set to for instance 2bar so that
I end up with probably right carbonated beer which after fermentation can be
bottled???"


I have done this many times but instead of sealing the primary fermenter, 
transfer the beer to a secondary fermenter when the bubbles in the airlock 
slow to one every 30 seconds or so. Fit the safety valve and go away for a 
week. You will end up with clear and softly carbonated beer ready for 
bottling or for enjoying out of the keg.

"Ah, and worth aeration, can pump for fish tanks be used to pump air in
worth? And how necessary it really is??"

Many home brewers use fish tank air pumps for wort aeration. As for the 
necessity of wort aeration, if you are pitching a large quantity of  fresh 
yeast from the brewery, aeration is not necessary.

Regards,
Mark Alfaro



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:31:26 +0000
From: Steve <duderooner at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Reply to: Fermentation under preasure by Andrej Capka

Hi Andrej

>When primary fermentation finishes, why is it necessary to move beer from
>yeast sediment?
>
Moving the beer off the sediment is one stage of the clarification 
process, which starts with your mash and will finish as you pour the 
finished bright beer off the sediment in the bottle.  The yeast sediment 
from the primary will impart an undesireable taste to the beer if left 
too long.

>As I jet do not have equipment for forced carbonation and is a bit to big
>investment for me at a moment, I wondered if it is possible to have primary
>fermentation in beer keg with safety valve set to for instance 2bar so that
>I end up with probably right carbonated beer which after fermentation can be
>bottled???
>

I understand that ale (i.e 20 deg C Fermentation) will not give good 
results if fermented under pressure, not sure about lower temperatures 
though. I do know that the secondary fermentation can be conducted in 
the fashion that you described.

>Oh, and one more :) why is it necessary to cool down worth quickly, I see
>many discussion is made on worth chillers so I wondered??
>
Boiling the wort will precipitate proteins derived from the malt which 
combine with hop tannins. This is known as "hot break" and will be 
seperated from the wort on the hop bed in your copper, or hop back, or 
whirlpool (which ever you have).  There are still proteins disolved 
within your wort which can be encouraged out of solution by rapid 
cooling, the "sediment" produced in this manner is "cold break" Rapid 
cooling of the wort also allows you to pitch your yeast quickly, which 
means the yeast will establish itself in the beer before any other 
organism gets a look in.

>Ah, and worth aeration, can pump for fish tanks be used to pump air in
>worth? And how necessary it really is?? Till now I used naturally chilled
>worth without aeration and results were quite ok... I used live yeast I got
>from local brewery.. not sure what kind of yeast it is but they told me it
>is technological secret.. yeast is used to ferment their worth and is
>capable to ferment up to 18% alcohol..
>  
>
Yeast requires oxygen in order to build cell membranes when it 
multiplies.  If  no oxygen is present your fementations may stick and 
the yeast may give up too early, especially if your are trying for 
something potent!  If you are pitching in a generous amount from your 
friendly brewer, you may have negated the need for external aeration. 
 If you introduce any oxygen to wort on the "hot side", you will produce 
oxidising reactions which will have a flavour impact on the beer, 
although the heat will also kill any airborne organisims. Air can be 
added once the wort has been chilled, but unless it is "clean" you might 
bring in a bit of bacteria too.

Good luck

Steve Haigh
Hampshire, England




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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:40:02 -0600
From: Dan Stedman <dstedman at gmail.com>
Subject: Where is everybody? And a wort oxygenation question...

Is there another homebrewing forum I should be reading? It's been
awful quiet around here lately.

I have a question - is there a consensus that you don't need to
(shouldn't?) aerate your fresh wort until 12-14 hours after you pitch
the yeast? It seems to me that Dr. Cone indicated that in one of his
responses, but I think most homebrewing texts indicate that you should
oxygenate immediately upon pitching.

If this is the case, I wonder if not aerating until later is actually
beneficial since there wouldn't be any oxygen for nasties to consume?
I'm not sure that the nasties need oxygen to do their thing, but if
they did it might be beneficial to wait to oxygenate until the yeast
are prepared to consume it.

Thoughts?

Also, it would be worth your while to pick up some Old Horizontal
barley wine by Victory Brewing. Very tasty!
 
dan


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