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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Results -- Wyeast 3522 at High Temps (Matt)
  Re: dry yeast (re-using?) (Bob Tower)
  Theoretical efficiency calculation as related to sparging (Ricardo Cabeza)
  re: dry yeast (re-using?) (Glyn Crossno)
  RE: strange fermentation - HELP (Ricardo Cabeza)


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Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:09:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Results -- Wyeast 3522 at High Temps

A few weeks ago when I asked for information on
fermenting Belgian yeasts at high temperatures, I got
a lot of replies about Wyeast 3522 Ardennes doing well
up to 90 degrees F.  So we chose it for a tripel we
were planning to ferment hot.  I think I said I'd
report the results, so here they are:

That tripel (just Briess 2-row, corn sugar, and hops)
was pitched into 85-degree wort at OG 1.073.  A
well-aerated 1.5 qt starter was used.  The wort was
poorly aerated by carboy-shaking.  84% (app)
attenuation was reached in 5 days at 76-85 degrees. 
It was held at 70 for 3 weeks after bottling.

A bottle tasted at 5 days was cidery and ethanol-y.  A
bottle tasted last night (3 weeks) was surprisingly
rounded, with what I suspect are many of the
lesser-known fruity esters.  Not as "ethanol-hot" and
with NO obvious cider, banana, bubblegum, or solvent
flavors.  Really pretty surprising for a 3-week-old
tripel at 8% ABV.  As of now we're very impressed with
3522 at these high temps.  Now to avoid drinking it
for a while...

Thanks to various people for the suggestion,

Matt
reply to baumgart at myway dot com
 


		
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Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:25:35 -0700
From: Bob Tower <tower at cybermesa.com>
Subject: Re: dry yeast (re-using?)

In Digest #4774 Darrell writes:

"Anyone re-use dry yeast?

I have heard for years that this is generally not done, but wonder
if this is still the case?

Nottingham, and Manchester are the two in question."

I regularly use Nottingham as I do large batches (15-20 gallons) and  
getting the pitching rates to where I want from a vial of White Labs  
or Wyeast is a PITA (though I do it when the yeast is a huge factor  
like in weizens or Belgians). I have had great success with it,  
varying my mashing temperatures and fermentation temperatures to  
sculpt the beer I want around Nottingham. I regularly reuse the yeast  
for a second batch (pour a new batch on top of the sediment from the  
previous) with neither better nor worse results. I have not gone  
beyond a single reuse.

The general wisdom about dry yeast is that unlike laboratory made  
liquid yeast there is always a small amount of background  
contamination (bacteria) that is inherent in the dehydration process.  
Since bacteria reproduces so much faster than yeast with each  
generation the background contamination becomes exponentially larger.  
I don't have the number in front of me right now (can be obtained  
from the makers of Nottingham, Danstar) but the bacterial  
contamination is something like 0.001%.

With liquid yeast cultures they may not perform as expected until the  
second or third generation, but I have not noted this in my  
experience with Nottingham. However, my experience may not be  
conclusive since I have never run the same recipe back to back with  
the second batch being on the yeast from the first and then compare  
the two beers. Whenever I reuse the yeast I am running a different  
recipe. That being said, I have not noticed any major flavor  
differences on the reuse.

Is Manchester still available? Danstar does not list it on their site  
and I haven't seen it available from any suppliers for about 2-3  
years. Is another company making it now?

Bob Tower
Los Angeles, CA


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Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:16:15 -0400
From: Ricardo Cabeza <expunged at gmail.com>
Subject: Theoretical efficiency calculation as related to sparging

Hello everyone - 

I'm new to the digest.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how to calculate the 
theoretical extract efficiency when sparging to a target volume.  From what 
I understand, commercial breweries usually sparge until the runnings reach 
a target pH or SG.  However, as a home brewer, it is obviously very 
inconvenient (translation: expensive!) for me to monitor the pH or specific 
gravity of my sparge in real time.

Basically, the problem, as I see it, is this:

The higher the OG of the beer, the more mash water I'll have in my tun, and 
therefore, the less sparge water I'll use to reach my target boil volume.  
Theoretically, the less sparge water I use, the lower the efficiency will be.  
Therefore, the crude efficiency that most suggest calculating, i.e. lbs. 
extract to fermenter / theo. max. lbs. extract for infinite sparge,
will be different every time.  I guess, I don't see how that would be useful.

I really enjoy formulating new recipes, so I am very interested in
being able to
predict the theoretical efficiency over a wide range of OG's.

I also have concerns related to scorching, etc. when over-sparging and
then boiling
down to 5 gal.

Thanks in Advance!
Ricardo Cabeza
PS - I'm not afraid of some ugly math.  I understand that this is a
fluid mechanics
& mass transfer issue, so I'm preparing in advance for some heavy duty math.



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Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glyn Crossno <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: dry yeast (re-using?)

I routinely re-use dry yeast.  I expect every yeast
liquid or dry to give me 3 to 4 batches at a minimum.
I treat dry the same as I treat liquid.

Glyn
in middle TN


		


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Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:14:04 -0400
From: Ricardo Cabeza <expunged at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: strange fermentation - HELP

Quote:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have had a strange or unresponsive initial fermentation that I 
was looking for some insight on.

I also 
switched from store bought "spring" water to well water run through a new 
whole house filter (in-line on the hose outside... its a rental house).

Well the fermentation did a very little, no active blow off as before on day 
2 or 3... After 5 days I again pitched more yeast (thinking I had killed or 
weakened somehow the initial batch) and after 12+ hours just a little bit 
more activity than before.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sean - 

I know I'm responding to this a bit late, but maybe I can help
for your future brews.  

1) The first question I would ask is did you aerate
the wort?  You said you brewed and then sealed the unpitched wort.
I'm assuming you didn't aerate then.  So did you remember to aerate
when you pitched and then re-pitched the yeast?

2)  I'm assuming that where ever you were keeping your carboy,
it was warm enough for the yeast to ferment.  If not, that could
be your solution.

3)  I'm a bit confused as to why you think you need to filter well water.
I would not filter water coming from a well.  Unless you have a system
that automatically adds chlorine / chloramine / disinfectant.  I assume
that you used activated carbon/charcoal filter.  Let me make few points
regarding this type of filter.  1)  It will not filter out any minerals / salts
from your water supply.  Only distillation, reverse osmosis, or ion 
exchange will do that.  2)  Bacteria love to grow in those things - to 
prevent bacteria growth, the manufacturer almost always will have 
a microbial inhibitor in the filter charge.  3)  Although I'm not 
familiar with your area, I'm guessing you use a filter because your
water smells.  This is probably because you have sulfur in it.  Sulfur
should not inhibit yeast growth unless it's present at very high levels.
If you're using an RO filter, then ignore the above.  

Unless you're picking up something from your activated carbon / charcoal
filter, as explained above, I highly doubt that you're water is the culprit.  My
guess is inproper aeration or fermentation temperature.

Good luck in the future!  Keep Brewing!



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